Negative/Positive Influences

I've been thinking, I have always thought the most negative friendship Eric and Dylan had was with each other because the massacre and all.

They both had other friends and family that all in all loved them. However, when you hear things like "they needed more positive friends" or when Marilyn Manson said "I'd listen to them, no one else would"

The thing is, what are kids going to do first off. Dealing with the issues Eric and Dylan had what would a Nate, Zach or Chris do if they sussed anything out? Zach knew Dylan was depressed and said he had a drinking problem. Brooks, Devon and Dustin knew about all the bullying.


I'm also thinking of the people who were overheard saying "they actually did it!" I think it was Erik V and maybe another person or 2. How serious would you really take Eric and Dylan prior to that?

The only other negative people I can think of that they interacted with would be Mark Manes and Philip Duran, since they knew E and D were high schoolers but still sold them the gun. Then you can also lump Robyn in with them too perhaps?

We've talked about the problems if either of them actually did get into a serious relationship so that wouldn't have helped. They weren't abused at home as far as we know. School was hell, but we know it was hell for other kids too. Having feces thrown at you and shoved a lot is pretty degrading.

Did anyone ever hit or shove Dylan, or was that just Eric?

I'll never understand why Robyn got away with no charges but Mark and Phil ended up with prison time. Not just jail time but they actually had to go to prison for several years and now have a criminal record. Meanwhile, the one who actually purchased the shotguns had no charges.

I guess cuz she cooperated with the detectives and with the other 2 boys, they didn't need cooperation cuz they had them on video shooting the guns? I say all 3 of them are guilty of buying/selling the guns to Dylan and Eric.

I wouldn't really say they were negative influences though. Out of all their friends, the only one I'd really say was a bad influence or got into trouble a lot would be Chris Morris. And even with him, I really don't think he had any influence on the massacre. He was just an edgy teen at the time.

Zach did go on missions with them but again, I wouldn't really call him a bad influence and the things they did like TPing houses and stealing newspapers from people's yards and egging houses is stuff that a lot of teenagers do thinking they're badass and cool. So I wouldn't really call him a bad influence either.

I stick with I think Dylan was the core problem of the entire situation. He was depressed, suicidal and homicidal. I really believe Eric was all talk in the beginning. I do think Eric was getting fed up with being at the bottom of the social ladder and having people pick on him. I think he wanted friends and wanted to be liked. I think he was angry, yea, but I don't think he became truly homicidal until he got involved with Dylan.

And my personal opinion is, no I don't think Dylan was shoved and pushed. He was picked on for how he dressed but I think it was Eric who took most of the bullying that went on.

I really don't think Dylan was as unpopular as Eric was at Columbine either.

The kid didn't bathe properly and dressed in old clothes. Anybody would get picked on for that.

I have never understood why Robyn was not charged with anything either. It really makes no sense to me. She bought 3 of the 4 guns and went free. While Duran got tossed in prison for merely introducing E&D to Manes who only sold them one gun and bought them a couple boxes of ammo. In my opinion neither had any knowledge of what Eric and Dylan were planning.

The only thing I can come up with as a reason is that Robyn was this sweet looking, all "A" grade getting good girl. Compared to Mark and Philip who had went practice shooting with the killers.

As for the bad influences, I actually think it was themselves. They were bad influences on each other for sure, and were also their own worst enemies.

But the school as a whole was just a very negative atmosphere in its self . The dread both likely had every time they pulled into that parking lot would have been awful.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I have never understood why Robyn was not charged with anything either. It really makes no sense to me. She bought 3 of the 4 guns and went free. While Duran got tossed in prison for merely introducing E&D to Manes who only sold them one gun and bought them a couple boxes of ammo. In my opinion neither had any knowledge of what Eric and Dylan were planning.

The only thing I can come up with as a reason is that Robyn was this sweet looking, all "A" grade getting good girl. Compared to Mark and Philip who had went practice shooting with the killers.

As for the bad influences, I actually think it was themselves. They were bad influences on each other for sure, and were also their own worst enemies.

But the school as a whole was just a very negative atmosphere in its self . The dread both likely had every time they pulled into that parking lot would have been awful.

Perhaps they needed to make an example of someone? Also yes, Robyn was 18, an A student and a Christian so why not punish the 20 somethings one of which used to have a drug issue?

I agree the way the two fed off of each other was the most negative of all. Dylan did have a severe form of depression, among other things, whether or not he took care of himself or portrayed himself in a certain way he seemed to be fell liked amongst people. Though when the environment is that toxic you really can't see those good things either. It was definitely hell for them so they unleashed their own and it was horrible for a lot of innocent people

Screamingophelia wrote:

Perhaps they needed to make an example of someone? Also yes, Robyn was 18, an A student and a Christian so why not punish the 20 somethings one of which used to have a drug issue?

I agree the way the two fed off of each other was the most negative of all. Dylan did have a severe form of depression, among other things, whether or not he took care of himself or portrayed himself in a certain way he seemed to be fell liked amongst people. Though when the environment is that toxic you really can't see those good things either. It was definitely hell for them so they unleashed their own and it was horrible for a lot of innocent people

I do believe that Manes and Duran were used as Whipping boys/scapegoats for Eric and Dylan. Someone had to be punished so why not the guys who went out on fun outings practice shooting with the killers? Even though they had no clue what was coming.

This is a perfect example of guilt by association. As E&Ds other friends would soon learn. I think this is mainly why E&D's family and friends were attacked so viciously. People just wanted someone/something to blame and Eric and Dylan were gone.

Apparently "Under Colorado law, an 18-year-old without a felony record can furnish minors with rifles and shotguns"

Whereas the gun Manes sold Dylan was a handgun. So if this is true, this is why Robyn was not charged and Mark/Phil were.

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W.A.R. wrote:

Apparently "Under Colorado law, an 18-year-old without a felony record can furnish minors with rifles and shotguns"

Whereas the gun Manes sold Dylan was a handgun. So if this is true, this is why Robyn was not charged and Mark/Phil were.

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I still think Manes and Duran were treated very unfairly. But as I said before the families and the general public wanted living faces to hate, so in that regard Mark and Philip filled in for Eric and Dylan.

Also another thing to note: Since she bought it from a private seller they couldn't count it as a "straw purchase" which would have been illegal.

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W.A.R. wrote:

Also another thing to note: Since she bought it from a private seller they couldn't count it as a "straw purchase" which would have been illegal.

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Something just makes me think that even IF she had been charged and found guilty, she still wouldn't have received such a harsh sentence as Manes and Duran.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Perhaps they needed to make an example of someone? Also yes, Robyn was 18, an A student and a Christian so why not punish the 20 somethings one of which used to have a drug issue?

I agree the way the two fed off of each other was the most negative of all. Dylan did have a severe form of depression, among other things, whether or not he took care of himself or portrayed himself in a certain way he seemed to be fell liked amongst people. Though when the environment is that toxic you really can't see those good things either. It was definitely hell for them so they unleashed their own and it was horrible for a lot of innocent people

I do believe that Manes and Duran were used as Whipping boys/scapegoats for Eric and Dylan. Someone had to be punished so why not the guys who went out on fun outings practice shooting with the killers? Even though they had no clue what was coming.

This is a perfect example of guilt by association. As E&Ds other friends would soon come learn. I think this is mainly why E&D's family and friends were attacked so viciously. People just wanted someone/something to blame and Eric and Dylan were gone.

Did we ever get word on who wasn't allowed to walk on graduation? Brooks I know and I think Nate and Chris? Zach and Robyn I'm unsure of.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Perhaps they needed to make an example of someone? Also yes, Robyn was 18, an A student and a Christian so why not punish the 20 somethings one of which used to have a drug issue?

I agree the way the two fed off of each other was the most negative of all. Dylan did have a severe form of depression, among other things, whether or not he took care of himself or portrayed himself in a certain way he seemed to be fell liked amongst people. Though when the environment is that toxic you really can't see those good things either. It was definitely hell for them so they unleashed their own and it was horrible for a lot of innocent people

I do believe that Manes and Duran were used as Whipping boys/scapegoats for Eric and Dylan. Someone had to be punished so why not the guys who went out on fun outings practice shooting with the killers? Even though they had no clue what was coming.

This is a perfect example of guilt by association. As E&Ds other friends would soon learn. I think this is mainly why E&D's family and friends were attacked so viciously. People just wanted someone/something to blame and Eric and Dylan were gone.

Did we ever get word on who wasn't allowed to walk on graduation? Brooks I know and I think Nate and Chris? Zach and Robyn I'm unsure of.

I'm not real sure who all was told NOT to come back like Brooks, also maybe some just didn't go back on their own.

Unfortunately Robyn just happened to not technically break any laws by being present during the sale of the guns, although I still can't believe she went without any legal repercussions in some form or another. I'm sure her life has been changed completely though, so she did have a different kind of punishment and probably lives with guilt.

In regards to the main point of this post- I also don't believe E&D had terrible friends or relationships. The most toxic was the one with each other. There isn't anything that stands out to me as a time when either boy cried out for help and was met with mocking or disbelief. I don't think any friends truly knew what they had planned.

The worst thing I know of was when Zach said Eric talked about making napalm and Dylan confessed to him that they had bought guns. But I don't think Zach was a bad friend for not prying more, they probably wouldn't have said anything more to him anyway.

Littlelo wrote:

Unfortunately Robyn just happened to not technically break any laws by being present during the sale of the guns, although I still can't believe she went without any legal repercussions in some form or another. I'm sure her life has been changed completely though, so she did have a different kind of punishment and probably lives with guilt.

In regards to the main point of this post- I also don't believe E&D had terrible friends or relationships. The most toxic was the one with each other. There isn't anything that stands out to me as a time when either boy cried out for help and was met with mocking or disbelief. I don't think any friends truly knew what they had planned.

The worst thing I know of was when Zach said Eric talked about making napalm and Dylan confessed to him that they had bought guns. But I don't think Zach was a bad friend for not prying more, they probably wouldn't have said anything more to him anyway.

I bet she had stigma for a long time when even trying to find jobs and stuff.

I imagine how overprotective she'd be if she has a daughter. I want to do this thing for a guy I like. Robyn-no!!! Go to your room.


I do agree though I think if any of their friends really knew how depressed Dylan was and he was like I really am going to kill myself they would do anything they could to help him.

Sue did tell a story at the symposium where she said one of his friends told her about a year ago that Dylan says if Eric knew I told you about the guns he'd kill me. Not sure if that was taken as a random comment like if I am late my boss will kill me type thing

That's interesting, what Sue said at the symposium. It really makes you think. But my gut tells me if Dylan wanted to back out or felt like Eric was a sincere threat to him, he could have and would have gone to someone. I think it was another one of those "Eric is crazy" comments that was not to be taken seriously.

Littlelo wrote:

That's interesting, what Sue said at the symposium. It really makes you think. But my gut tells me if Dylan wanted to back out or felt like Eric was a sincere threat to him, he could have and would have gone to someone. I think it was another one of those "Eric is crazy" comments that was not to be taken seriously.

Agreed.  Another reason I would love to see the whole Dylan  you're  Jewish thing from the basement tapes. Or at least an unbiased opinion of what they saw. I didn't learn anything new, it was just nice to see her speak and to meet her. The interviewer did accidentally say Eric and not Dylan. Probably not a name she likes hearing.

Littlelo wrote:

Unfortunately Robyn just happened to not technically break any laws by being present during the sale of the guns, although I still can't believe she went without any legal repercussions in some form or another. I'm sure her life has been changed completely though, so she did have a different kind of punishment and probably lives with guilt.

Don't get me wrong, its not like I want to see Robyn crucified or anything. BUT you can't deny that she did get off relatively easy compared to Manes and Duran.

Hell even Brooks was treated worse by Jeffco and he never supplied/helped E&D buy any weapons.

W.A.R. wrote:

Apparently "Under Colorado law, an 18-year-old without a felony record can furnish minors with rifles and shotguns"

Whereas the gun Manes sold Dylan was a handgun. So if this is true, this is why Robyn was not charged and Mark/Phil were.

Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I always wondered if maybe it had something to do with the gun. Dylan's gun was supposedly worse because it was a semi automatic. I remember watching a video where Daniel Mauser's Father was talking about banning guns because his son was shot in the face with a tec 9, but his son was actually shot with a rifle by Eric, not by Dylan. I guess maybe that is what he thought before they had the complete investigation report.

Jenn wrote:

I always wondered if maybe it had something to do with the gun. Dylan's gun was supposedly worse because it was a semi automatic. I remember watching a video where Daniel Mauser's Father was talking about banning guns because his son was shot in the face with a tec 9, but his son was actually shot with a rifle by Eric, not by Dylan. I guess maybe that is what he thought before they had the complete investigation report.

Eric's gun was also semi-auto but it was a rifle instead of a handgun. It really doesn't matter either way in Manes case because even if he sold them a rifle he would've been in just as much trouble. Robyn narrowly avoided a charge due to a lax law on 'furnishing' minors with rifles/shotguns and a loophole in the straw purchase law. Manes straight up sold the gun to Dylan (illegal period).

Most guns are semi-automatic though. America is better off outlawing them completely/making you have to get a licence with several mental health tests by professionals on the way. Observations from top of the range psychiatrists to determine whether they deserve a gun.

But that would be too much work.

Ivan wrote:

Most guns are semi-automatic though. America is better off outlawing them completely/making you have to get a licence with several mental health tests by professionals on the way. Observations from top of the range psychiatrists to determine whether they deserve a gun.

But that would be too much work.

Yes it would be to much work, would cost to much as well. As I assume the person wanting the gun would have to pay for the psychological testing.  

Also it would be way to easy for a professional to say "Oh you look slightly gloomy today so we will put you on a list and you will never be allowed to own a firearm again. But it still wouldn't keep guns away from people who really want one for whatever reason.

Ivan wrote:

America is better off outlawing them completely/making you have to get a licence with several mental health tests by professionals on the way. Observations from top of the range psychiatrists to determine whether they deserve a gun.

But that would be too much work.

It would also be hard to define what counts as sanity. A lot of shooters were technically sane even if they had mental health issues. Would every person with depression or anxiety be forbidden from owning a gun or would restrictions be limited to people who were schizophrenic or bipolar, where they had a tendency to lose touch with reality or become psychotic? What about personality disorders? What about people lying during evaluations, knowing that they would have their right to own a gun taken away if they were found to be ill? Dylan was able to convince everyone who knew him personally that he was generally mentally sound. For those who were capable of hiding it, what if those people started avoiding mental health treatment completely for fear of being banned from owning weapons? Stigma still persists in some communities and fear of being labeled "dangerous" or "incompetent" could make it worse, especially in communities where recreational gun culture is important.

I think trying to keep guns out of the hands of people who might harm others (or themselves) is a nice idea but I don't think it's easy to figure out who that could be. Most people diagnosed with a mental illness are never going to hurt someone and other people might, without having mental illness. There are also a number of cases where mass shooters acquired guns from family members who gained them legally, especially among young people whose parents owned guns.

sscc wrote:

Ivan wrote:

America is better off outlawing them completely/making you have to get a licence with several mental health tests by professionals on the way. Observations from top of the range psychiatrists to determine whether they deserve a gun.

But that would be too much work.

It would also be hard to define what counts as sanity. A lot of shooters were technically sane even if they had mental health issues. Would every person with depression or anxiety be forbidden from owning a gun or would restrictions be limited to people who were schizophrenic or bipolar, where they had a tendency to lose touch with reality or become psychotic? What about personality disorders? What about people lying during evaluations, knowing that they would have their right to own a gun taken away if they were found to be ill? Dylan was able to convince everyone who knew him personally that he was generally mentally sound. For those who were capable of hiding it, what if those people started avoiding mental health treatment completely for fear of being banned from owning weapons? Stigma still persists in some communities and fear of being labeled "dangerous" or "incompetent" could make it worse, especially in communities where recreational gun culture is important.

I think trying to keep guns out of the hands of people who might harm others (or themselves) is a nice idea but I don't think it's easy to figure out who that could be. Most people diagnosed with a mental illness are never going to hurt someone and other people might, without having mental illness. There are also a number of cases where mass shooters acquired guna from family members who gained them legally, especially among young people whose parents owned guns.

Agreed.

Outlawing semi-auto's or making people go through a gauntlet of mental health evaluations is a non-starter.

Hate it or Love it, the right to bear arms is apart of our rights as citizens. People wont and shouldn't budge on that.

W.A.R. wrote:

Outlawing semi-auto's or making people go through a gauntlet of mental health evaluations is a non-starter.

Hate it or Love it, the right to bear arms is apart of our rights as citizens. People wont and shouldn't budge on that.

Agree 100%!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

W.A.R. wrote:

Outlawing semi-auto's or making people go through a gauntlet of mental health evaluations is a non-starter.

Hate it or Love it, the right to bear arms is apart of our rights as citizens. People wont and shouldn't budge on that.

Agree 100%!  

Agreed as well. I personally have no desire to own a gun, but I don't think people should have to give to their rights to have them.