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StinkyOldGrapes




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PostSubject: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeMon Aug 26, 2013 11:11 pm

I was reading over Eric's journal while watching my children play, and again, I tried to imagine what it would feel like to have a child do something like E/D did.

For a moment, I saw a different side to Eric journal.

He rants about hating everyone, but I wonder how he feels about himself? This teenager has zero love for his own life.

I mentioned this to a friend, who then quoted something that I really liked. This quote was said about terrorists, but I feel it applies to Eric too:

"When they learn to love their own lives and families more than they hate their enemies, terrorism will cease to exist".

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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2013 2:08 am

I found a shortened version of that; "Evil is the absence of love."
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queenfarooq




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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2013 3:07 am

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
I mentioned this to a friend, who then quoted something that I really liked. This quote was said about terrorists, but I feel it applies to Eric too:

"When they learn to love their own lives and families more than they hate their enemies, terrorism will cease to exist".
It's an interesting point, there are many examples where Eric in particular is referred to as a 'teenage terrorist.' It's only short but there's a few interesting snippets here about Columbine, and the terrorist mind: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2013 3:11 am

Panzerjoust wrote:
I found a shortened version of that; "Evil is the absence of love."
It's hard for anyone to love their enemies. But Eric couldn't even love himself enough to want to give himself a good life.

What do you think made Eric hate himself so much?

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StinkyOldGrapes




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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2013 3:51 am

queenfarooq wrote:
StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
I mentioned this to a friend, who then quoted something that I really liked. This quote was said about terrorists, but I feel it applies to Eric too:

"When they learn to love their own lives and families more than they hate their enemies, terrorism will cease to exist".
It's an interesting point, there are many examples where Eric in particular is referred to as a 'teenage terrorist.' It's only short but there's a few interesting snippets here about Columbine, and the terrorist mind: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
There's a couple of really great points in that article:

Quote :
Columbine shooter Eric Harris wrote in his diary that he would like to hijack a plane and crash it into New York City. It showed one link between the Columbine killers and terrorists: They served to use limited resources to maximum effect.
I really think this part in bold is the difference between a psychopath and a terrorist. The psychopath kills because they have no empathy, the terrorist kills to make a point, and that point is best served by obtaining the largest number of deaths with whatever limited resources the terrorist has.

Quote :
a strong sense of victimization and alienation; the belief that moral violations by the enemy justify violence in pursuit of a 'higher moral condition;' the belief that the terrorists' ethnic, religious or nationalist group is special and in danger of extinction, and that they lack the political power to effect change without violence.
That's the best description I've ever heard. And I think this is exactly how Eric felt.

There are fours parts to that description:
1) Victimization/alienation -E/D had a low social status.
2) The belief that moral violations of the enemy justify violence -How much emotional pain does a person have to cause you before violence is justified?
3) The belief that the terrorist's group is special and in danger of extinction -Eric had a lot of pride in himself, which I would say was healthy (there was no reason for him to accept himself as lower than others, as he was told he was). He also seemed to feel that he was sexually unattractive to society, and that society had no use for him.
4)The lack of political power to effect change without violence -If E/D had killed themselves alone at home, no one would have cared. If they had voiced their complaints on a webpage, no one would have cared. If they wanted to be heard, it was NECESSARY to use violence.

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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2013 4:20 am

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
Panzerjoust wrote:
I found a shortened version of that; "Evil is the absence of love."
It's hard for anyone to love their enemies. But Eric couldn't even love himself enough to want to give himself a good life.
you
What do you think made Eric hate himself so much?
You are so right with your statement. If you couldn´t love yourself, it is difficult to life and care about other people. And it is difficult to allow that others maybe like you.

Your question is a very good one... but I don´t know...
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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2013 8:38 am

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
What do you think made Eric hate himself so much?
That's one of those questions I get stuck on. I honestly have no idea. I think the self-hatred goes hand in hand with the 'role' he took on. I still feel that the entire massacre-act was business on his end far more than it was personal, although there is a personal component in the target itself that shouldn't be discounted. (His overall motivation is, I believe, quite different from Dylan's. That could also explain their different behaviours during the event itself, I guess?) What I am actually really curious about is how aware he was of his own self-loathing.. if it was something he pushed down real fast every time it threatened to take over, or if it's something he was aware of and consciously attempted to channel into the whole NBK-thing.. I can't help but feel that the kid sometimes had very little insight into what really made him tick, you know? I don't doubt that the self-hatred was there and played a huge role in things, but I suspect that Eric himself would've seen it as a much smaller component of the case than I currently do.

As to why.. hmm.. I don't know. He was always described as a pretty timid and perfectionistic kid, so it's hard to determine where the switch to active hatred of himself was made. Maybe the foundation for it was already present in childhood, and maybe it wasn't and only really rose inside him during his years at CHS. This is one of the parts about Eric that I find hardest to figure out, especially because he didn't vocalise it to the extent Dylan did and kinda shouted over every doubt and every sensitivity with more rage. (In one way, it's almost like he built a character for himself..)

I really love that article from Huffington Post, by the way. Interesting that it is written by Jeff Kass.. I haven't read his book, so I'm curious if he describes something similar in that? Does anyone know?
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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2013 10:28 pm

thedragonrampant wrote:
I can't help but feel that the kid sometimes had very little insight into what really made him tick, you know? I don't doubt that the self-hatred was there and played a huge role in things, but I suspect that Eric himself would've seen it as a much smaller component of the case than I currently do.
I completely agree. I don't think Eric saw any self-hatred in himself at all.

I think people make up "explanations" for their own feelings all the time. Eric wanted to die, so his "explanation" was that he was doing it because it's what he was born to do.

I don't think Eric ever stopped and sat down to think about the truth. He believed in whatever made him feel good. 100%.

Quote :
As to why.. hmm.. I don't know. He was always described as a pretty timid and perfectionistic kid, so it's hard to determine where the switch to active hatred of himself was made. Maybe the foundation for it was already present in childhood, and maybe it wasn't and only really rose inside him during his years at CHS. This is one of the parts about Eric that I find hardest to figure out, especially because he didn't vocalise it to the extent Dylan did and kinda shouted over every doubt and every sensitivity with more rage. (In one way, it's almost like he built a character for himself..)
I find it interesting that Eric became suicidal in his teenage years -when a lot of hormones are kicking in. I think Eric really believed that society didn't find him sexually attractive, and he may have even been right about that. It's only natural that this would cause him pain, which he had no control over feeling. He may have felt ashamed of that pain, and felt that if he were a stronger person, he wouldn't care what others think -as if human beings have control over that. Perhaps he began seeing his pain as a symptom of "superiority" -the world was a shitty place, but only he realized that because he was superior. This belief may have restored him to feeling great once again, so he accepted it as fact.

Who knows?

But the irony of Eric's attack -he wore a shirt that said "Natural Selection" when he was actually selecting himself out of the human gene-pool too- makes me feel that this teenager deeply hated himself.

Personally, I think shame of his own pain drove Eric to hate himself.

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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeWed Aug 28, 2013 4:30 am

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
I think people make up "explanations" for their own feelings all the time. Eric wanted to die, so his "explanation" was that he was doing it because it's what he was born to do.
Yeah, most people just attempt to figure themselves out but don't acknowledge anything they have part in or acknowledge the deeper reasons why. I think these 'explanations' are band-aids for a cut that's way too deep. Live with these in ignorance long enough and they'll be torn off until you realise your own contribution and your deepest level of feeling. I do wonder if Eric finally made the real click on the day itself..

Quote :
I find it interesting that Eric became suicidal in his teenage years -when a lot of hormones are kicking in. I think Eric really believed that society didn't find him sexually attractive, and he may have even been right about that. It's only natural that this would cause him pain, which he had no control over feeling. He may have felt ashamed of that pain, and felt that if he were a stronger person, he wouldn't care what others think -as if human beings have control over that. Perhaps he began seeing his pain as a symptom of "superiority" -the world was a shitty place, but only he realized that because he was superior. This belief may have restored him to feeling great once again, so he accepted it as fact.
That's true for a lot of people. Teenage years are a mix of hormones and finding your own identity. I really think that the contact he wanted (not just the sexual but also the emotional) wasn't easily attained and ended up with him getting hurt somehow the moment he put himself out there. I think you're spot-on with him seeing his pain as a symptom of superiority. Truth be told, transforming some of that kind of pain into the idea that you're superior does help you get through one day and the next.. although it's not very good long-term because the amount of hatred for the human race that comes with it is huge. Rolling Eyes Eric apparently didn't have the safety net I had that enabled me to reconsider to the point where the superiority complex only comes out when I get really mad?

Was it really shame, or an inability to handle hurt/pain in a constructive manner? Or both?
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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeWed Aug 28, 2013 5:54 am

thedragonrampant wrote:

Was it really shame, or an inability to handle hurt/pain in a constructive manner? Or both?
Society sure makes it hard to handle pain in a constructive manner.

What would be the reaction if Eric said "People, in general, don't like me. And it hurts"?

Someone kind might have told him not to worry about what people think of him, but that doesn't really help, because pain isn't a voluntary reaction, and human beings can't just turn the hurt off like a tap. Or someone else might have told him to shut up and stop whining.

Caring about whether people like you or not is seen as a weakness in society. Even if Eric had decided to accept his pain and not be ashamed of it, how would his friends have reacted to this? Pain is a very intense emotion, and people usually distance themselves from people in pain. And the last thing a person in pain wants is to be rejected even more.

I agree that there were more constructive options for turning pain into something to be proud of. But society wasn't supporting those options for Eric, or for many others.

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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeFri Aug 30, 2013 1:42 am

I don't think the shooting had anything to do with any feelings of exclusion or self-hatred. I believe he exaggerated those feelings as a pretext for justifying the murder of other children, which he wanted to carry out because he was an extreme psychopath and was obsessed with homicidal ideation. Actually, he says so himself in The Basement Tapes. He rants about how people made fun of me so that he can "keep building" rage--the entire thing is an exercise in building up the feelings he'll need to do what he wants to do anyway.

There are many tragic incidents every year across the world where people are driven to homicide by bullying. In these cases, there is always a clear record of the student being the center of extreme bullying. The student then almost always directs the homicide against bullies.

Neither was the case with Eric Harris. According to the 11K, 1) more people identify him as a bully than a victim, and 2) he did not conceive of 4/20 as an attack against anyone who had bullied him.
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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeFri Aug 30, 2013 6:56 am

lasttrain wrote:
I don't think the shooting had anything to do with any feelings of exclusion or self-hatred.  I believe he exaggerated those feelings as a pretext for justifying the murder of other children, which he wanted to carry out because he was an extreme psychopath and was obsessed with homicidal ideation.  Actually, he says so himself in The Basement Tapes. He rants about how people made fun of me so that he can "keep building" rage--the entire thing is an exercise in building up the feelings he'll need to do what he wants to do anyway.

There are many tragic incidents every year across the world where people are driven to homicide by bullying.  In these cases, there is always a clear record of the student being the center of extreme bullying. The student then almost always directs the homicide against bullies.  

Neither was the case with Eric Harris.  According to the 11K, 1) more people identify him as a bully than a victim, and 2) he did not conceive of 4/20 as an attack against anyone who had bullied him.
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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeFri Aug 30, 2013 9:11 am

lasttrain wrote:
Actually, he says so himself in The Basement Tapes. He rants about how people made fun of me so that he can "keep building" rage--the entire thing is an exercise in building up the feelings he'll need to do what he wants to do anyway.
Of course he'd say so in the Basement Tapes -- they were meant to be seen by a really large audience, after all. You can't be the murdering tough guy when you're busy whinging and crying about how you got made fun of and how much hurt you've got inside of you. (It's a miracle there's a tape inclusion of him alone in his car where he "appears to be crying". The kid put on such an act that it's often hard to tell where Reb ends and Eric begins.) It's far easier to transform that inner pain into building up the rage and hatred necessary to commit murder. I don't believe Eric exaggerated the feelings of exclusion and self-hatred. Actually, I think that he wasn't even fully aware of the latter and built upon the former as a reason why only because exclusion was easier to explain away than the torrent of thoughts he struggled with on a day-to-day basis. His "obsession with homicidal ideation", as you put it, may have been exacerbated by his medication and by his utter inability to deal with himself in a constructive and healthy manner. Eric was one of those kids whose pain grew to be externalised rather than internalised (Dylan was an internaliser), so pushing the rage and hatred outward and lashing out at others would've pretty much been second nature for him.

Look, I'm not saying that extreme bullying was a component of why Columbine happened. There is some evidence to suggest that the boys were picked on every so often, just as there is some evidence to suggest that they picked on others. There's not enough evidence either way to make bullying a huge component in the 'why'-explanation. It is likely that rejection/exclusion played a part in their respective reasonings, but the boys themselves aren't straightforward about it in a way that cannot be disputed. The basement tapes are hugely problematic in this regard. It is here that rejection/exclusion play a bigger role in the explanations than they do in other parts of the evidence, but without seeing their facial expressions/gestures and hearing their voices it is hard to tell how much this was truly meaningful and how much this was just them 'putting on an act'. But it also isn't constructive to say that Eric was a psychopath, because we simply don't know if that was the case or not. You know I'm firmly stuck in the not-a-psychopath-camp due to lack of proper diagnosis and due to the fact that I can see other explanations for Eric's behaviour and reasonings that do not include psychopathy. I don't find the assumption that he was a psychopath constructive because it is exclusionary. (I'm not faulting you for making the assumption, as is your right and your personal way of explaining a very complicated case, but fact is we don't have the right to diagnose a dead kid with much of anything. Everything we say about the case here will be an assumption. You assume Eric was a psychopath. I assume that he was not. The psychopath argument, however, is a done deal. It's something that doesn't question a lot about Eric and why he did what he did and said what he said and whatever else. For argument's sake alone, I find it far more interesting to assume that he wasn't one.)

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
I agree that there were more constructive options for turning pain into something to be proud of. But society wasn't supporting those options for Eric, or for many others.
No, that is true. I've been pondering how to reply to your post for a while now, but I can't really find the words to. I took the more constructive options in order to learn to deal with the hurt and with myself, but it messed up my education and my contacts with my peers a lot. There is no real place in society that accepts and helps transform that pain. Most of the time, you're just told to quit whining and get your act together. People don't want to hear about pain and so they shut you out the moment you find you can't keep up and deal. Don't get me wrong.. I'm glad that I was able to put up the fight and come out of it the way I am right now. But there's something seriously wrong with society that makes it so hard for others to keep fighting that same fight, especially when they don't have a support system or something else to fall back on. They end up falling back on the wrong things, which inevitably leads to more hurt for more people..
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PostSubject: Re: Some random thoughts   Some random thoughts Icon_minitimeMon Sep 02, 2013 12:52 am

Millions of kids feel pain, but they don't kill other children.

Therefore, the pain was not the cause.

Of course, you might argue that this was Eric's particular response to pain. But if your response to pain is to try to kill hundreds of children, you clearly have something more going on. And that something more is the real cause of your actions. Not the pain.
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