Oklahoma city and Tim McVeigh

Neah wrote:

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Sandy did that once and i laughed.

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Also Timmy told many stories about how he had wanted to be caught and about that missing license plate. In one he said he took it off to increase the chance of getting caught

That sounds a bit like a proud man who is so frustrated to have been caught for such a small and silly mistake that he doesn't even want to admit that it was a mistake.

Whatever truly happened with the missing plate is a mystery. But for all my research, and everything I have gathered on McVeigh, he was indeed a very proud man. OR at least wanted people to perceive him in that light. He was very protective of his image and worried about how things made him look to the public. He would watch and read everything the media said about him. He detested anything that made him appear weak, or stupid, as most men do. HE also HATED the very idea of people thinking he was a patsy. Tim wanted to take full credit for the planning and the attack its-self. This was the "Lone Wolf" scenario Tim preferred and the Government tried SO hard to shove down everyone throats.

But we all know he had help from various people, at various times. Also evidence points to possible help from some type of government agent or informants who were on the government's payroll. Yet Tim wanted no one else to be caught, or charged. He could have squealed on everyone involved and possibly received Life instead of the Death penalty. But for what ever reason he took that shit to his grave. It is possible he was protecting the others who were involved, and also his family, as he had been involved with certain groups who could have been a threat to his close friends/family on the outside.  So whether he was just a bit player or in the top group of Masterminds of the bombing is just one question that has never been answered 100% either way.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Yet Tim wanted no one else to be caught, or charged.

What you said makes sense. Do you think it was possible that he hoped the others outside would take his fight over, or was he aware that he was the only one ready to put his quiet life in danger for such a cause?

Sorry for all these questions that you probably cannot even answer because you were not in his head and much of the case remains a mystery, but to me you are the "McVeigh expert".

Emanation of Darkness wrote:

Ainjel wrote:

imgview wrote:

"Reports got ignored" is always a shady accusation and sounds of conspiracy theory, no federal agent is going to ignore reports of an incoming attack, especially not if Uncle Sams bureaucracy is threatend. 

I guess you’ve never researched 9/11 very much.  You should watch the 9/11 commission hearings and then tell us how federal agents don’t ignore reports of incoming attacks.

I think that the overall problem is that there's so much reports that don't lead to anything that something needs to be really outrageous to catch the attention.

I remember reading about watchlists a few years ago when reading about some Muslim terrorist attack where everyone involved was on watchlist and there are ridiculous amounts of people on watchlists.

I think the reports get "ignored" simply because they get overwhelmed with amounts of reports.

Well I find it very hard to believe they just accidentally missed something in this case. Considering they ignored not one, not two, but over 70 reports from their own paid informant Carol Howe who had been planted by the ATF/FBI inside Elohim City, the Aryan Republican Army, and other such groups in 1994/1995

Her reports said that an attack was pending, she even named the Murrah building specifically as one of two or three buildings being looked at/talked about as potential targets, saying she had personally been involved or ridden along on three separate trips to scout the Murrah building. She also said that McVeigh had been to Elohim City several times in the year leading up to the bombing.

Carol Howe was subjected to 17 different polygraph tests, she passed them all.  There were also several other undercover agents and other informants that corroborated her stories. So the fact of over 70 reports being somehow overlooked, is a bit questionable in my opinion.

Another thing about the case that is so confusing is the sheer number of government plants, undercover agents, and paid informants that were involved. You had a huge clusterfuck of people working for/getting paid by the ATF/FBI. So someone, somewhere knew something. It just stretches the imagination to think that out of all these people no one reported back and was like "OK this shit is getting serious"  

BUT Carol Howe did report back, 70 some times to be exact.

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Yet Tim wanted no one else to be caught, or charged.

What you said makes sense. Do you think it was possible that he hoped the others outside would take his fight over, or was he aware that he was the only one ready to put his quiet life in danger for such a cause?

Sorry for all these questions that you probably cannot even answer because you were not in his head and much of the case remains a mystery, but to me you are the "McVeigh expert".

In all honesty I do think Tim knew that he was one of the very few that would risk themselves for what they believed in. But I also think he hoped to wake the average person up and have them realize that the government was overstepping its-self.

TheDragonoid wrote:

McVeigh's case always gave me the impression that "political paranoia" were the equivalent of teen angst in mass murder back in the day, motivation-wise.

Well you are not wrong. But I will add that political paranoia is still thriving today as well. Mainly because people know their government is filled with corruption and deceit. Also in my opinion things have only gotten worse over the years in that regard. Then throw in the media bias that exists today and its just a real shit show all around.

Also just wanted to list the books on Tim McVeigh/Oklahoma City that I currently own. Here they are in no particular order.



American Terrorist  -By Lou Michel & Dan Herbeck

All American Monster  -By Brandon Stickney

Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh  -By Wendy Painting

Others Unknown  -By Stephan Jones & Peter Israel

Secrets Worth Dying For: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By David Paul Hammer & Jeffery William Paul

Deadly Secrets: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By David Paul Hammer

Final Report on the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building  -By The Oklahoma Bombing Investigation Committee

One of Ours: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By Richard A. Serrano



EDIT- Had to add the two newest books that I just bought on the subject.

Oklahoma City : What the Investigation Missed -- And Why It Still Matters  -By Andrew Gumbel and Roger G. Charles

Oklahoma City: Day One: A Detailed Account of the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building  -By Michele Marie Moore


EDIT- Needed to add another book I just bought. I swear I'm not obsessed!  

Freedom's End: Conspiracy in Oklahoma  -By James D. Nichols & Robert S. Papovich


EDIT- Just bough this one today.

The Medusa File II: The Politics of Terror and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By Craig Roberts

Here is my current situation with the suspicious deaths surrounding McVeigh and the OK bombing. There are indeed several!  I was only going to do the top two or three,  but then decided to go all in.  I'm not one to half-ass things, so if I'm going to do this then it will be done thoroughly or not at all.  

I am up to 9 as of now, with a few more possibly being added to the list after I have gotten the chance to fully investigate and research them and their connection with McVeigh or the case in general. There is a literal ton of reports, videos, court records and files to go through regarding each person. But it is all so entangled around the bombing that it makes my head hurt.  

I am trying to work out a timeline of all the suicides/deaths and following all the leads down and how everyone was involved or what knowledge they had prior to their deaths. But this is going to take a bit to get done. So this will likely turn into a series of posts as there is just no way to put everything into one!  After I get the timeline ironclad, I will start with the oldest death and work my way to the latest one.

SO if you have any interest in this, just please bear with me. There are only so many hours in a day!

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This is an appreciation post to bring attention to Tim's impeccable sense of style! While going through some folders I noticed the number of times Timmy was seen wearing flannels or button down type shirts with rolled up sleeves. He apparently liked this look a lot.

My own husband's closet is filled with these very same type shirts, and to be honest they are very comfortable to wear.  I wear them almost as much as he does. Paired with leggings or jeans and I'm good to go!

Some of these pics have been posted earlier in the thread, but the one with Tim holding the baby is a new one that I recently found. It is horribly grainy and I am also still trying to pinpoint a date for the picture and who's baby he is holding.

The drawings/artwork were taken from his court appearances. Sadly no cameras were allowed in the court room during his trial. He also wore the button down type shirts. But near the end he just started wearing sweatshirts, saying something along the lines of if he was going to be sentenced to death then he might as well be comfortable.

Also the artists who did the second and fourth drawings are fucking AMAZING! The last one is dead on.

It's true that he had a nice style, casual but still he was very charismatic. I'm sure it helped him a lot keep some kind of support by a part of the population. A few months ago I found in my grandmother's house a magazine dated back late 1995, it was a kind of special edition, a recap about the main events of 1995. And there was a page about the trial of McVeigh and obviously he was described as a far-right, Nazi-ish terrorist but also as the perfect son-in-law:

Quote :

When the FBI made him go out of Perry police station, the crowd who was ready for lynching did not manage to hide its confusion when it discovered for the first time this archetype of American values. 28-year-old Tim McVeigh was a stubborn clumsy oaf and with his exemplary-soldier short hair, he didn't look like a monster but was instead like the typical son of the neighbors in Perry or Boise: he was not posh nor a hippie, he was decent, neat and tidy.

I think appearance has a big impact on the reaction of people, especially for young and easily-influenced people. For example I think unfortunately Dylann Roof's look could influence many teenagers into feeling attracted by him or identifying to him and to some extent minimizing racism (which is a first step in radicalization I guess). On the contrary, Roof's copycat wannabe was too repulsive for anyone to be attracted to him and his cause:

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Neah wrote:

It's true that he had a nice style, casual but still he was very charismatic. I'm sure it helped him a lot keep some kind of support by a part of the population. A few months ago I found in my grandmother's house a magazine dated back late 1995, it was a kind of special edition, a recap about the main events of 1995. And there was a page about the trial of McVeigh and obviously he was described as a far-right, Nazi-ish terrorist but also as the perfect son-in-law:

Quote :

When the FBI made him go out of Perry police station, the crowd who was ready for lynching did not manage to hide its confusion when it discovered for the first time this archetype of American values. 28-year-old Tim McVeigh was a stubborn clumsy oaf and with his exemplary-soldier short hair, he didn't look like a monster but was instead like the typical son of the neighbors in Perry or Boise: he was not posh nor a hippie, he was decent, neat and tidy.

That is a fairly accurate depiction of McVeigh,  especially the stubborn part. He was clearly a very stubborn man. This stubbornness hurt him and his case many times over the course of his trial.

Also he was always said to have been a very neat and tidy person. Hell he even took the time to wipe up water from the floor after his shower the morning of his execution. But I dare say he would have been greatly offended by the "clumsy oaf" part!

I will start off the "Suspicious Deaths" that surround the Oklahoma City bombing with that of the first strange recorded death of Michael Lee Loudenslager. Michael worked as an estimator or planner at GSA(General Services Administration) on the 1st floor of the Murrah building. He was also a Reserve Oklahoma County Sheriff, part of their Mounted Patrol.

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Let me give you a little important info or backstory on Michael. Several weeks before the bombing he had noticed the BATF/FBI/DEA were bringing in a large amount of explosives and storing them inside the building. He became so concerned with this that he AND the original daycare operator(I can't find this woman's name!) had her husband who was the building's Security Director file a grievance to GSA.

Here is where things start to get kind of sketchy.

The only thing to come of the compliant is the Security Director lost his job. Later on the wife of the Security Director who operated the Daycare had some remodeling work done in or around the Daycare center that by law required fire marshals to do an inspection. The fire marshals who came to follow through with the inspection were told by Federal Agents to leave and were not allowed to do their job. Then the woman lost her contract and another person was brought in to oversee the Daycare center.

Melva Noakes was given the new contract and had only been operating the America's Kids Daycare for three short weeks when the bombing happened on April 19th. The Daycare was located on the 2nd floor of the Murrah building.

But between the time of the Security Director being fired, Michael and Original Daycare operator begin telling the parents who had kids being watched at the Center to pull them out, to stop bringing them to the building.  Some of the parents actually did stop using the Daycare and found childcare elsewhere. It was said that the parents didn't like the shake up that had come when the original Daycare operator was pushed out and the new one coming in. Also because of the things they had heard Michael saying about the building's safety. This likely saved a few lives.

Now here is where shit gets weird.

Fast forward to the morning of Wednesday April 19th. Michael Loudenslager is working on the first floor of the Murrah building.  He survived the bomb and then engaged in and aids others in rescue efforts of victims trapped and injured. Several people have went on record saying that Michael was alive and well enough to come to their assistance or offer help AFTER the bombing! These people say they saw him, talked to him, etc. 

People who saw him say he was very upset and even had an altercation with government agents at the site. The argument was said to have became very loud and heated. This exchange was again seen by several people.

Here is where I call BULLSHIT! 

Michael Loudenslager was found dead slumped over at his desk inside the building the following Sunday on April 23. By Official records he was killed in the bombing at 9:02 AM on April 19th. He is listed as one of the 168 victims that were killed in the blast. So how did so many people see him, talk to him, hear him, etc. after the bombing?  Was it his ghost being helpful trying to rescue people? Was it his ghost seen and heard arguing with the agents on site?  

I am still looking for official paperwork on Michael, autopsy reports, death certificate, etc. I will add them when/if I am able to find them. 

Also I have found that at least 3 people who say they saw Loudenslager alive after the bombing on the 19th have died. Some under mysterious circumstances themselves. 

I may have underestimated how long and drawn out this process will be going through all these deaths and trying to make sense out of what happened with each. But I'm not a slacker, so I will do each one as I come to it and fit it into the timeline of events. But it seems the deeper I dig the more deaths/suicides I find.

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BAHAHAH! I wish I knew what conspiracy theorist came up with this hot mess!  

While I do agree the man at the protest in the pic somewhat resembles McVeigh, mainly in the shape of the mouth and the chin. But I highly doubt if Timmy were still alive that he would be at some random protest throwing up a peace sign. Although the man is wearing a flannel with rolled up sleeves, which we all know was Tim's trademark look.  

Also have to add that to my scant knowledge of Tim's medical history(scant only because his records are mostly sealed) he never had a boxer's type fracture, nor underwent any kind of surgery on his right hand. Though it is possible he may have broken his hand or arm once upon a time. I will have to try an delve deeper and see what I can unearth on that.

But this would still be considered as reaching for the stars!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

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BAHAHAH! I wish I knew what conspiracy theorist came up with this hot mess!  

While I do agree the man at the protest in the pic somewhat resembles McVeigh, mainly in the shape of the mouth and the chin. But I highly doubt if Timmy were still alive that he would be at some random protest throwing up a peace sign. Although the man is wearing a flannel with rolled up sleeves, which we all know was Tim's trademark look.  

Also have to add that to my scant knowledge of Tim's medical history(scant only because his records are mostly sealed) he never had a boxer's type fracture, nor underwent any kind of surgery on his right hand. Though it is possible he may have broken his hand or arm once upon a time. I will have to try an delve deeper and see what I can unearth on that.

But this would still be considered as reaching for the stars!

Perhaps people who show up on protests are the same that punch walls?

Emanation of Darkness wrote:

Perhaps people who show up on protests are the same that punch walls?

Possible. But the chances of that man being Timothy James McVeigh in disguise are slim to none.  Although Timmy did wear a biker get up once.    

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ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Emanation of Darkness wrote:

Perhaps people who show up on protests are the same that punch walls?

Possible. But the chances of that man being Timothy James McVeigh in disguise are slim to none.  Although Timmy did wear a biker get up once.    

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Jesus Christ, he looks like Dylan.

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Emanation of Darkness wrote:

Perhaps people who show up on protests are the same that punch walls?

Possible. But the chances of that man being Timothy James McVeigh in disguise are slim to none.  Although Timmy did wear a biker get up once.    

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Jesus Christ, he looks like Dylan.

Agree. They both shared the same angular face. Meaning a strong profile, similar jawline, etc.

I am still working on the next installment in the "Suspicious Deaths". Just had way to many things going on recently to really dig and search for the needed paperwork, documents etc. to go along with this next post. But I will get it lined up in a few days.

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Also found a new pic of McVeigh that I'd never seen before. The quality is horrible, BUT it's something new so I went ahead and posted it.  

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Came across this as I was doing a bit of searching.  

Some of Tim's pics from one of his interviews coupled with various pics from the final demolition of the Murrah building.

While not a true representation of reality,  Timmy "allegedly" was once said to say that his only regret was not completely leveling the building.

Had to update my book list again!



American Terrorist  -By Lou Michel & Dan Herbeck

All American Monster  -By Brandon Stickney 

Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh  -By Wendy Painting 

Others Unknown  -By Stephan Jones & Peter Israel

Secrets Worth Dying For: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By David Paul Hammer & Jeffery William Paul

Deadly Secrets: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By David Paul Hammer

Final Report on the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building  -By The Oklahoma Bombing Investigation Committee

One of Ours: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By Richard A. Serrano
 
Oklahoma City : What the Investigation Missed -- And Why It Still Matters  -By Andrew Gumbel and Roger G. Charles

Oklahoma City: Day One: A Detailed Account of the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building  -By Michele Marie Moore  

Freedom's End: Conspiracy in Oklahoma  -By James D. Nichols & Robert S. Papovich

The Medusa File II: The Politics of Terror and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By Craig Roberts


EDIT- Bought this today.

The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Politics of Terror  -By David Hoffman

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Had to update my book list again!



American Terrorist  -By Lou Michel & Dan Herbeck

All American Monster  -By Brandon Stickney 

Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh  -By Wendy Painting 

Others Unknown  -By Stephan Jones & Peter Israel

Secrets Worth Dying For: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By David Paul Hammer & Jeffery William Paul

Deadly Secrets: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By David Paul Hammer

Final Report on the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building  -By The Oklahoma Bombing Investigation Committee

One of Ours: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By Richard A. Serrano
 
Oklahoma City : What the Investigation Missed -- And Why It Still Matters  -By Andrew Gumbel and Roger G. Charles

Oklahoma City: Day One: A Detailed Account of the Bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building  -By Michele Marie Moore  

Freedom's End: Conspiracy in Oklahoma  -By James D. Nichols & Robert S. Papovich

The Medusa File II: The Politics of Terror and the Oklahoma City Bombing  -By Craig Roberts


EDIT- Bought this today.

The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Politics of Terror  -By David Hoffman

Wow, what a collection! Do you really read them? Or are you like me, buying books and then thinking "Why the hell did I just bought this book, we all know I will never read it?"

Neah wrote:

Wow, what a collection! Do you really read them? Or are you like me, buying books and then thinking "Why the hell did I just bought this book, we all know I will never read it?"

I'm an avid reader.  I have read them, some several times. Some are being read through yet again, especially since I'm working on future posts in regards to the case.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

Wow, what a collection! Do you really read them? Or are you like me, buying books and then thinking "Why the hell did I just bought this book, we all know I will never read it?"

I'm an avid reader.  I have read them, some several times. Some are being read through yet again, especially since I'm working on future posts in regards to the case.

Well, bravo then! Timmy would be proud of you! Thank you for doing all the hard work while we are resting and waiting for you to give us all the funny details.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Also does 13 books on this subject seem obsessive to you?  Asking for a friend!

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

Wow, what a collection! Do you really read them? Or are you like me, buying books and then thinking "Why the hell did I just bought this book, we all know I will never read it?"

I'm an avid reader.  I have read them, some several times. Some are being read through yet again, especially since I'm working on future posts in regards to the case.

Well, bravo then! Timmy would be proud of you! Thank you for doing all the hard work while we are resting and waiting for you to give us all the funny details.

I do like to add funny stuff when I find it.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Also does 13 books on this subject seem obsessive to you?  Asking for a friend!

Nooo... let's just say your friend want to cross-reference information to make sure they are reliable. ;)

Which one is your favorite for now?

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Also does 13 books on this subject seem obsessive to you?  Asking for a friend!

Nooo...   let's just say your friend want to cross-reference information to make sure they are reliable. ;)

Which one is your favorite for now?

Hands down its Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh by Wendy Painting. To my knowledge Wendy is the only person to date that has gone through every piece of evidence that is allowed to the public, also all the case archives.

It truly shows in her mammoth of a book! But its the most in depth one I have found so far on McVeigh and the case.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Also does 13 books on this subject seem obsessive to you?  Asking for a friend!

Nooo...   let's just say your friend want to cross-reference information to make sure they are reliable. ;)

Which one is your favorite for now?

Hands down its Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh by Wendy Painting. To my knowledge Wendy is the only person to date that has gone through every piece of evidence that is allowed to the public, also all the case archives.

It truly shows in her mammoth of a book! But its the most in depth one I have found so far on McVeigh and the case.

Maybe I'll give it a try. I also want to read A Mother's Reckoning but I prefer to start reading something about McVeigh (I feel it's like choosing between a great blockbuster with a charismatic and badass hero with a tortured mind, explosions and stuff whereas on the other hand you've got a drama film about two lonely teenagers in a desperate need to be heard and understood).

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Also does 13 books on this subject seem obsessive to you?  Asking for a friend!

Nooo...   let's just say your friend want to cross-reference information to make sure they are reliable. ;)

Which one is your favorite for now?

Hands down its Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh by Wendy Painting. To my knowledge Wendy is the only person to date that has gone through every piece of evidence that is allowed to the public, also all the case archives.

It truly shows in her mammoth of a book! But its the most in depth one I have found so far on McVeigh and the case.

Maybe I'll give it a try. I also want to read A Mother's Reckoning but I prefer to start reading something about McVeigh (I feel it's like choosing between a great blockbuster with a charismatic and badass hero with a tortured mind, explosions and stuff whereas on the other hand you've got a drama film about two lonely teenagers in a desperate need to be heard and understood).

Amazon has the Kindle and paperback versions. There are a few copies on Ebay as well.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Also does 13 books on this subject seem obsessive to you?  Asking for a friend!

Nooo...   let's just say your friend want to cross-reference information to make sure they are reliable. ;)

Which one is your favorite for now?

Hands down its Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh by Wendy Painting. To my knowledge Wendy is the only person to date that has gone through every piece of evidence that is allowed to the public, also all the case archives.

It truly shows in her mammoth of a book! But its the most in depth one I have found so far on McVeigh and the case.

Maybe I'll give it a try. I also want to read A Mother's Reckoning but I prefer to start reading something about McVeigh (I feel it's like choosing between a great blockbuster with a charismatic and badass hero with a tortured mind, explosions and stuff whereas on the other hand you've got a drama film about two lonely teenagers in a desperate need to be heard and understood).

Amazon has the Kindle and paperback versions. There are few copies on Ebay as well.

See how you perverted my mind! It all starts with a single book and soon I will create a club in my "McVeigh library" and discuss conspiracy theories...

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Also does 13 books on this subject seem obsessive to you?  Asking for a friend!

Nooo...   let's just say your friend want to cross-reference information to make sure they are reliable. ;)

Which one is your favorite for now?

Hands down its Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh by Wendy Painting. To my knowledge Wendy is the only person to date that has gone through every piece of evidence that is allowed to the public, also all the case archives.

It truly shows in her mammoth of a book! But its the most in depth one I have found so far on McVeigh and the case.

Maybe I'll give it a try. I also want to read A Mother's Reckoning but I prefer to start reading something about McVeigh (I feel it's like choosing between a great blockbuster with a charismatic and badass hero with a tortured mind, explosions and stuff whereas on the other hand you've got a drama film about two lonely teenagers in a desperate need to be heard and understood).

Amazon has the Kindle and paperback versions. There are a few copies on Ebay as well.

See how you perverted my mind! It all starts with a single book and soon I will create a club in my "McVeigh library" and discuss conspiracy theories...

BAHAHAHAHA!

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Small update. Scrounged around until I found a slightly better quality pic of Tim holding the baby. Also determined that the baby was Jason Torres Nichols. Terry Nichols second wife Marife Torres's son. Terry met and married Marife through a Mail Order Bride service but she became pregnant with Jason sometime after she married Terry and before being able to make the move from the Philippines to the US some many months later. Terry accepted Jason as his own.

Jason Torres Nichols died by suffocation when he was around two years old. He was found unresponsive with a bag over his head. Shortly after Jason died, Marife told her family that she suspected Terry killed Jason out of anger that he wasn't his real son, and to get back at her because she had cheated on him before coming to American. Then she blamed Tim McVeigh of killing Jason to make Terry go along with the bombing. There are several tales she told different people about who she thought had possibly killed Jason and why.

The story surrounding Jason's death is kinda vague, the details of who found him, who called 911 etc. change depending on what sources you are working with. Some say Marife herself found Jason, other variations say that either Tim or Terry found him first. But all say that Tim started CPR and that Terry joined in to try and resuscitate Jason until the paramedics arrived. Jason's death was investigated, no bruises, injuries, or signs of trauma were found on his body, so his death was ruled accidental.

Marife Nichols also had a short lived affair with Tim while he and Terry were supposedly planning the attack.  That info later came out during Terry's trial.


Still working on the Suspicious Deaths Series as well, these things sometimes take forever to track down reliable info on.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Shortly after Jason died, Marife told her family that she suspected Terry killed Jason out of anger that he wasn't his real son, and to get back at her because she had cheated on him before coming to American. Then she blamed Tim McVeigh of killing Jason to make Terry go along with the bombing. There are several tales she told different people about who she thought had possibly killed Jason and why.

What is your own theory on this?

I think it was an accident. I may be very naive but I find it hard to believe that parents can kill their baby. I know it happened before but in this case I don't believe they could have done that. Neither can I imagine Timothy killing the baby. Maybe his charisma and political opinions influenced me but, even if in the end he actually ended up killing babies I don't think McVeigh was mean to the point that he could murder a baby directly, even if he had reasons to do so. Marife obviously knew them better than I do but she was probably a bit paranoid. Or she tried to blame others for something she could not prevent and felt guilty for, despite her being the mother.

Neah wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Shortly after Jason died, Marife told her family that she suspected Terry killed Jason out of anger that he wasn't his real son, and to get back at her because she had cheated on him before coming to American. Then she blamed Tim McVeigh of killing Jason to make Terry go along with the bombing. There are several tales she told different people about who she thought had possibly killed Jason and why.

What is your own theory on this?

I think it was an accident. I may be very naive but I find it hard to believe that parents can kill their baby. I know it happened before but in this case I don't believe they could have done that. Neither can I imagine Timothy killing the baby. Maybe his charisma and political opinions influenced me but, even if in the end he actually ended up killing babies I don't think McVeigh was mean to the point that he could murder a baby directly, even if he had reasons to do so. Marife obviously knew them better than I do but she was probably a bit paranoid. Or she tried to blame others for something she could not prevent and felt guilty for, despite her being the mother.

I actually think it was just an accident. Everyone who was close to the situation that knew Tim said that Tim often took care of Jason, would change his diapers, give him baths, played with him, ate with him etc. They said Jason loved Tim and the feeling was mutual.

It's true that Tim had a hand in killing the 19 kids that were in the Daycare center that day. But it wasn't up close and personal. He didn't see it happening with his own eyes. I also seriously doubt that he could have suffocated a two year old baby to death that he was used to being around and caring for, one that trusted him completely.  That I just cant believe.

But Marife told many different stories and changed them several times over. Also you have to remember that she did have an affair with Tim later on after Jason's death. Ask yourself this- Would a mother really have sex with a man she thought had killed her child? I would think not.  

Also Terry had accepted Jason as his own, even though Marife had cheated on him. Why would he wait two years then decide to all of a sudden kill Jason for revenge? That just makes no sense to me either. There were no signs of foul play, no indication that Jason had been abused etc. So that all points to it just being a very sad and tragic accident.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

But Marife told many different stories and changed them several times over. Also you have to remember that she did have an affair with Tim later on after Jason's death. Ask yourself this- Would a mother really have sex with a man she thought had killed her child? I would think not.  

Also Terry had accepted Jason as his own, even though Marife had cheated on him.

I don't know how she felt after the bombing and trial but all these elements give a pretty bad image of her. She cheated on Terry who still recognized the baby as his own (which is already something incredible), and despite this she had an affair with her husband's friend. I don't know how people at the trial reacted to that but it could have lowered the value of her testimonies.

Its true that she did catch a lot of flack, but only on a personal level. It didn't effect the way her testimony was received by the jury.

Imagine if Tim McVeigh went on a Shooting spree instead of the bombing (or after the bomb detonated), how do you think he would have done?
Remember he was a former soldier in the Gulf war.

Ziamber II wrote:

Imagine if Tim McVeigh went on a Shooting spree instead of the bombing (or after the bomb detonated), how do you think he would have done?
Remember he was a former soldier in the Gulf war.

Why would he go on a shooting spree?

I don't know if this has already been posted before but here's a picture of all of McVeigh's victims:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

QuestionMark wrote:

Ziamber II wrote:

Imagine if Tim McVeigh went on a Shooting spree instead of the bombing (or after the bomb detonated), how do you think he would have done?
Remember he was a former soldier in the Gulf war.

Why would he go on a shooting spree?

If he decided not to build the bomb, or if he wanted to get extra kills after detonating his bomb.

Well Tim was a Top Gunner when he was in the ARMY. Like a really good marksman, but this was in a tank. He did will all kinds of awards for this though.

Tommy QTR wrote:

I don't know if this has already been posted before but here's a picture of all of McVeigh's victims:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Actually it hasn't. Thanks for posting.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Tommy QTR wrote:

I don't know if this has already been posted before but here's a picture of all of McVeigh's victims:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Actually it hasn't. Thanks for posting.

Yeah I wanted to remind everyone that no matter how much you like/sympathise with McVeigh, he still murdered innocent people.

Tommy QTR wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Tommy QTR wrote:

I don't know if this has already been posted before but here's a picture of all of McVeigh's victims:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Actually it hasn't. Thanks for posting.

Yeah I wanted to remind everyone that no matter how much you like/sympathise with McVeigh, he still murdered innocent people.

Thanks, I had never seen this one. Sure, I sympathize with McVeigh but you're right about that, it's important to remember the victims too, and I may sometimes forget what he did. It is the same with mass shooters, sometimes I feel I need to see all the victims again, to keep the balance between how shooters were before the shooting, and all the innocent lives they destroyed.

I swear I haven't given up on this thread y'all! Just been super busy. I am still actively researching when I can find a minute or two.

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Also just found this on Tumblr! Sweet Jesus! WHY! Just why do fangirls feel the need to do these types of things?

No!!

I always thought it was weird when they did it to actors and now they’re doing it to people who are decidedly not actors..

Screamingophelia wrote:

No!!

I always thought it was weird when they did it to actors and now they’re doing it to people who are decidedly not actors..

I about lost my breakfast! LOL!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I am still actively researching when I can find a minute or two.

Spoiler:

I must admit that I'm a little bit disappointed with you "active" researching!