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PostSubject: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Sep 22, 2013 2:52 pm

There is no way we can know for sure but do you think E&D discussed dropping their plans for NBK at any point in time? I personally think that if they had second thoughts, it was only in their mind and didn't share them with each other. If Eric would have slept with the last girl she hosted in her room (don't remember her name) and  she professed her love to her and a desire to be together, what do you think Eric would have done? I am aware that he didn't have any real long-term plans except for the Marines so that might have worked against abandoning NBK plans. What do you think Dylan would have said if Eric wanted to back out for any reason and vice versa? I mean, Dylan sent a love letter to a girl saying something along the lines of "if you feel the same way i feel, i would find a way to survive". I don't know how E would have reacted when she had answered Dylan and D would want to back out.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Sep 22, 2013 3:50 pm

I think there was a time when they would've still been able to back out, and a time when they wouldn't have felt able to anymore. If they had any doubts or second thoughts at all, I don't think they would've shared them with the other person. I think that, at some point, NBK became bigger than everything else they had going on. Everything was a reminder of it, every road led to it, and there was a time when neither could've backed away from it anymore. They'd geared up for it for more than a year. Nothing would've swayed them in the final months leading up to it unless they'd been caught red-handed with their plans.

I think they would've gotten very upset with each other if one of them had wanted to back out. It's a really fascinating thought. What would they even have done? Gone through with it on their own? (I don't think so, somehow..) Sold the other one out to authorities/parents/etc? They were so invested in this and so much 'in this together' that it's hard to know how visceral the reaction would've been if one had backed out.. I think there'd be such a strong sense of betrayal and hurt in them that it's hard to tell what their reaction would've been.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeTue Sep 24, 2013 6:17 pm

I believe that both experienced second thoughts until the very end of their lives.

Dylan: "I hate this non-thinking stasis. Im stuck in humanity. maybe going "NBK" (gawd) w. eric is the way to break free. i hate this."

I've always thought the "gawd" represents some kind of hesitancy about it, or even horror at the thought of it.

I also believe that Dylan had thoughts of turning them in and committing suicide. He had turned Eric in once before to the Browns.

I've often wondered whether this letter was written to send after turning them in.

"I am a criminal, I have done things that almost nobody would even think about condoning. The reas reason that I'm writing you now is that I have been caught for the crimes I comitted, & I went want to go to a new existence. You know what I mean. (Suicide) I have have nothing to live for, & I won't be able to survive in this world after this legal conviction."
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeThu Sep 26, 2013 2:09 am

In my opinion based on the basement tape transcript it sounded like Eric was having Second thoughts about the whole thing when it was getting closer. For instance, Eric said things like it's a weird feeling knowing you are going to die in 2 weeks, this week has been really hard on me since it's my last week on Earth and how he wished he could have visited his friends in Michigan. But he probably thought all those months of planning, preparing, being patient, etc would have all been for nothing like we have come to far in this process so we cannot chicken out now.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeFri Sep 27, 2013 3:00 am

lasttrain wrote:
I believe that both experienced second thoughts until the very end of their lives.  

Dylan: "I hate this non-thinking stasis. Im stuck in humanity. maybe going "NBK" (gawd) w. eric is the way to break free. i hate this."

I've always thought the "gawd" represents some kind of hesitancy about it, or even horror at the thought of it.
I feel the same way about his "gawd".  When I look at how Dylan wrote this in his penmanship, my gut reaction is almost like a muttered, under the breath kind of *eye roll*, like "Oh GAWD.... is NBK really going to be what it takes for me to leave the earth?"  Like, he's actually pausing to really consider all of it - NBK with Eric (as oppose to Zack?) - as the viable solution to speeding up the end of his stagnant, miserable life on the earth - even though, all this time he'd been preparing for NBK with Eric, planning, building bombs and such. It's like it hadn't all become reality for Dylan up until that point. January '99. A few months before 4/20.

lasttrain wrote:
I also believe that Dylan had thoughts of turning them in and committing suicide.  He had turned Eric in once before to the Browns.

I've often wondered whether this letter was written to send after turning them in.

"I am a criminal, I have done things that almost nobody would even think about condoning. The reas reason that I'm writing you now is that I have been caught for the crimes I comitted, & I went want to go to a new existence. You know what I mean. (Suicide) I have have nothing to live for, & I won't be able to survive in this world after this legal conviction."
This is a very intriguing theory! And the tense of his draft letter would fit in this regard. Though, I'm not sure if Dylan would've had the guts to  turn  them both in as a criminals with the goal of figuring out how to commit suicide on his own  after having been convicted/arrested.  Dylan may have had ambiguous thoughts about it but on the day of, he,  at least, seemed fully committed to the task at hand by Eric's side - and exchange for his own wish - a joint suicide.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeFri Sep 27, 2013 9:57 am

My theory (and it's just a theory) is that Dylan was planning on sending that letter to the girl, turning them in, and then committing suicide before any arrest happened.

I just can't imagine that the van break-in represents a "thin[g] nobody would even think of condoning." Unless he's exaggerating if for effect. I think he might be referring to all the planning.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeFri Sep 27, 2013 2:13 pm

lasttrain wrote:
My theory (and it's just a theory) is that Dylan was planning on sending that letter to the girl, turning them in, and then committing suicide before any arrest happened.

I just can't imagine that the van break-in represents a "thin[g] nobody would even think of condoning."  Unless he's exaggerating if for effect.  I think he might be referring to all the planning.
I see now you had presented this theory in the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thread.  Somehow I missed this!  

I fully get what you're saying now.   Rhetorically speaking, I wonder if Dylan would have the guts to commit suicide by himself?  Was it important for him to go out with a friend by his side?  I think his initial fantasies in his journal allude of his desire for a spree and joint suicide with Zack but then later decided that the mission with Eric was the way to go (gawd.)   Also, would Dylan openly betray Eric like that by turning them in and then somehow mustering up the courage to commit suicide alone prior to the cops arresting him (as you clarified)?   I'm just not so sure Dylan could do It by himself.  He needed a friend by his side to see it through.  I think you're theory is an interesting twist.  Personally, I'm still leaning toward Dylan writing the letters as a fantasy suicide note and that once he finished writing it, he decided against dropping it in her locker.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeFri Sep 27, 2013 5:48 pm

And we will never know why he decided not to send it... all the open questions annoy me...
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 1:53 pm

lasttrain wrote:
 Unless he's exaggerating if for effect.  I think he might be referring to all the planning.
I've often had the uneasy feeling that both Harris and Klebold committed other crimes that no-one really knows about. There could have been break-ins, thefts, even assaults. The reporting of "black masks" and the mask found near Eric's trench-coat give me chills. So does the vid of Eric "kidnapping" Brandi -- that's quite a practiced lasso-move he pulls there -- doesn't look like the 1st time he did it.

We'll never know for sure, but I'd bet a month's salary that they committed many other crimes before the attack on the school other than the van break-in, vandalizing, hacking etc. Some of these could have even been reported but suppressed by Jeffco just like everything else.

Dylan and Eric actually give the impression that they were constantly involved in illegal actions. Doing so was part of their self-identities and group identity.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 4:28 pm

gustopoet wrote:
I'd bet a month's salary that they committed many other crimes before the attack on the school other than the van break-in, vandalizing, hacking etc.
Like what? I've often had that notion myself but I've always thought more vandalizing than anything more serious.

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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 5:03 pm

areyoulistening wrote:
Like what? I've often had that notion myself but I've always thought more vandalizing than anything more serious.
If I had to guess? Maybe credit card fraud (basement tapes reference?), drug-dealing (pretty obvious), petty theft, stealing bikes, breaking into cars. Also more computer hacking than what is commonly assumed.

If you want to go to the extreme end, armed robbery, assault, rape.... These seem less likely, but possible.


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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 5:21 pm

gustopoet wrote:
If you want to go to the extreme end, armed robbery, assault, rape.... These seem less likely, but possible.
I'm interested to know if you think these things are possible what is your basis for this? I'm just curious.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 5:27 pm

gustopoet wrote:
lasttrain wrote:
 Unless he's exaggerating if for effect.  I think he might be referring to all the planning.
I've often had the uneasy feeling that both Harris and Klebold committed other crimes that no-one really knows about. There could have been break-ins, thefts, even assaults. The reporting of "black masks" and the mask found near Eric's trench-coat give me chills. So does the vid of Eric "kidnapping" Brandi -- that's quite a practiced lasso-move he pulls there -- doesn't look like the 1st time he did it.

We'll never know for sure, but I'd bet a month's salary that they committed many other crimes before the attack on the school other than the van break-in, vandalizing, hacking etc. Some of these could have even been reported but suppressed by Jeffco just like everything else.

Dylan and Eric actually give the impression that they were constantly involved in illegal actions. Doing so was part of their self-identities and group identity.
Hi gustopoet ,if E&D did commit any crimes other than the van break in ,i think they would have done things of a destructive nature. I wouldn't be surprised if Eric had burnt a house down or two. We know how much Eric loved " his fires ." Oxygen feeds the flames of fire and possibly fire fed the flames in Eric's destructive personality.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 5:51 pm

rik75 wrote:
Hi gustopoet ,if E&D did commit any crimes other than the van break in ,i think they would have done things of a destructive nature. I wouldn't be surprised if Eric had burnt a house down or two. We know how much Eric loved " his fires ." Oxygen feeds the flames of fire and possibly fire fed the flames in Eric's destructive personality.
Good points.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 5:59 pm

queenfarooq wrote:
I'm interested to know if you think these things are possible what is your basis for this? I'm just curious.
Yes I think they are possible. My basis, in general, is that I think Eric and Dylan evolved into serial criminals. They went from "rebel missions," to computer hacking, to felony theft... All along the way they are building and detonating pipe-bombs, vandalizing homes, trying to buy guns, and planning mass murder. We know that they made death-threats to enemies at school and illegally obtained and fired sawed-offs. That's what we know happened.   In other words I think the basis of their friendship was rooted in criminal activity. It is how they bonded and why they bonded. It was a mutual release and fantasy and catharsis. They both felt powerless and alienated and full of rage and hate. They used crime like a drug.  Then they OD'd.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 6:14 pm

gustopoet wrote:
queenfarooq wrote:
I'm interested to know if you think these things are possible what is your basis for this? I'm just curious.
Yes I think they are possible. My basis, in general, is that I think Eric and Dylan evolved into serial criminals. They went from "rebel missions," to computer hacking, to felony theft... All along the way they are building and detonating pipe-bombs, vandalizing homes, trying to buy guns, and planning mass murder. We know that they made death-threats to enemies at school and illegally obtained and fired sawed-offs. That's what we know happened.   In other words I think the basis of their friendship was rooted in criminal activity. It is how they bonded and why they bonded. It was a mutual release and fantasy and catharsis. They both felt powerless and alienated and full of rage and hate. They used crime like a drug.  Then they OD'd.
Yes I agree with what you are saying about Eric and Dylan evolving into serial criminals. It seems they did start off with somewhat seemingly petty crimes which evolved dramatically over the course of their last years eventually leading to murder.
I don't think I asked my initial question very clearly. I was wondering what your basis was for saying it was possible they had committed other crimes such as armed robbery, assault and rape? I do agree that they very likely committed a lot more crimes than we know of and were just never caught or they never wrote or talked about them. However i'm not sure if i think it was likely that they could have committed specifically armed robbery or rape.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 7:35 pm

gustopoet wrote:
drug-dealing (pretty obvious)

If you want to go to the extreme end, armed robbery, assault, rape.... These seem less likely, but possible.
Why is drug dealing obvious? I know they got high during the weekend but is there anywhere that says they dealt? That sounds like something Eric would boast about, in my opinion anyway.

I'm not so sure about the last three, I think Eric especially would get his ass handed back to him in a physical fight.
Dylan, maybe.

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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 8:24 pm

areyoulistening wrote:

Why is drug dealing obvious? I know they got high during the weekend but is there anywhere that says they dealt? That sounds like something Eric would boast about, in my opinion anyway.

I'm not so sure about the last three, I think Eric especially would get his ass handed back to him in a physical fight.
Dylan, maybe.
Hi areyoulistening,

I agree Eric would brag about it, but I was thinking more of Dylan as dealing small bags of weed or at least being involved in buying/selling. I get the impression that Eric liked staying sober. He says he didn't care for drinking much.

On the assault thing -- I was envisioning it as taking place probably close to NBK -- after they had guns. Especially the sawed-offs.


Last edited by gustopoet on Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 8:29 pm

queenfarooq wrote:

I don't think I asked my initial question very clearly. I was wondering what your basis was for saying it was possible they had committed other crimes such as armed robbery, assault and rape? I do agree that they very likely committed a lot more crimes than we know of and were just never caught or they never wrote or talked about them. However i'm not sure if i think it was likely that they could have committed specifically armed robbery or rape.
Hi queenfarooq,

I suggested rape because they were both into sexual domination as documented in their respective journals. They also apparently shared pornography with each other. People who rape are power-seekers. They were also infatuated with the movie Natural Born Killers and as they built up to NBK and certain death, why hold back on anything?

I suggested armed robbery for the same reason: power and immersion in crime and violence.

These are just hypothetical ideas --  there's admittedly no evidence that they raped anyone, or assaulted anyone before the massacre. Of course most sexual assaults go unreported. Likewise for many instances of street-level intimidation and/or muggings.

Hope that answers your question.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 8:47 pm

gustopoet wrote:
I was thinking more of Dylan as dealing small bags of weed or at least being involved in buying/selling.
I'm picking up what you're throwing down, but wouldn't his friends have known about it? Nobody mentions it at all. Not saying it didn't happen but surely someone would have talked about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 8:47 pm

Eric boasted about credit card fraud on the Basement Tapes to up his bad ass credibility but *shrugs* anyone could idly boast and make claims over such things.  Is there proof that this happened?  Is it in the 11K?  Ultimately, when it comes down to it during their Main Event aka NBK: these two guys wanted the bombs to do the damage for them.  When that didn't happen, they ended up chaotically managing no more than a small potatoes shooting spree for under an hour.  I don't think they really wanted to do the dirty work much, if at all..just a little bit.. to pick off people after the bombs did the main work.  So, I doubt E &D getting their hands dirty with hardcore armed robbery.  Assault is ridiculous as they couldn't even physically manage the jocks. (Dan Lab hit Eric in the face.)  These guys were skinny, non muscular dudes.  I'm pretty sure rape is completely out of the question.  They hadn't even entertained their sexuality with women let alone to be bold enough to over power them.  When Eric grabs Brandi in that video and he pulls back you can see him smiling all kind of proud that he managed to grab a girl and pull her to him and against him. Probably the only guy/girl physical contact he's ever mustered ever and that was a big moment for him. ;) The guys were just so awkward and green in this arena.  I think they were just amateur teenagers pulling minor stunts and NBK was supposed to be their Grand Finale.  Just my opinion/hunch, of course.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 8:52 pm

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
Eric boasted about credit card fraud on the Basement Tapes to up his bad ass credibility but *shrugs* anyone could idly boast and make claims over such things.  Is there proof that this happened?  Is it in the 11K?  Ultimately, when it comes down to it during their Main Event aka NBK: these two guys wanted the bombs to do the damage for them.  When that didn't happen, they ended up chaotically managing no more than a small potatoes shooting spree for under an hour.  I don't think they really wanted to do the dirty work much, if at all..just a little bit.. to pick off people after the bombs did the main work.  So, I doubt E &D getting their hands dirty with hardcore armed robbery.  Assault is ridiculous as they couldn't even physically manage the jocks. (Dan Lab hit Eric in the face.)  These guys were skinny, non muscular dudes.  I'm pretty sure rape is completely out of the question.  They hadn't even entertained their sexuality with women let alone to be bold enough to over power them.  When Eric grabs Brandi in that video and he pulls back you can see him smiling all kind of proud that he managed to grab a girl and pull her to him and against him. Probably the only guy/girl physical contact he's ever mustered ever and that was a big moment for him. ;) The guys were just so awkward and green in this arena.  I think they were just amateur teenagers pulling minor stunts and NBK was supposed to be their Grand Finale.  Just my opinion/hunch, of course.
Hi InFiNiNcEX5, sounds reasonable to me. But remember rape is way different than ordinary "guy/girl" contact and assault doesn't mean fists against jocks necessarily....

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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 8:56 pm

areyoulistening wrote:

I'm picking up what you're throwing down, but wouldn't his friends have known about it? Nobody mentions it at all. Not saying it didn't happen but surely someone would have talked about it.
It's on the periphery. Dylan was known to drink and smoke weed and his brother was kicked out of the house for drugs. TCM & associates contain a lot of weed references. There were even attempts early in the aftermath to tie the 4-20 date to weed-smoking. I was just thinking Dylan might have been one of those typical guys who was a part time smoker and occasional dealer and/or go between. My only point in bringing it up at all is to establish that doing illegal things was a constant form of stimulation for them.

It was a drug in itself. They needed some stimulation of this kind almost constantly, whether planning or doing.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 8:58 pm

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
 They hadn't even entertained their sexuality with women let alone to be bold enough to over power them.  
They both fantasized about sexual domination.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 9:03 pm

Eric boasted about credit card fraud on the Basement Tapes to up his bad ass credibility but *shrugs* anyone could idly boast and make claims over such things.  Is there proof that this happened?  Is it in the 11K?  Ultimately, when it comes down to it during their Main Event aka NBK: these two guys wanted the bombs to do the damage for them.  When that didn't happen, they ended up chaotically managing no more than a small potatoes shooting spree for under an hour.  I don't think they really wanted to do the dirty work much, if at all..just a little bit.. to pick off people after the bombs did the main work.  So, I doubt E &D getting their hands dirty with hardcore armed robbery.  Assault is ridiculous as they couldn't even physically manage the jocks. (Dan Lab hit Eric in the face.)  These guys were skinny, non muscular dudes.  I'm pretty sure rape is completely out of the question.  They hadn't even entertained their sexuality with women let alone to be bold enough to over power them.  When Eric grabs Brandi in that video and he pulls back you can see him smiling all kind of proud that he managed to grab a girl and pull her to him and against him. Probably the only guy/girl physical contact he's ever mustered ever and that was a big moment for him. ;) The guys were just so awkward and green in this arena.  I think they were just amateur teenagers pulling minor stunts and NBK was supposed to be their Grand Finale.  Just my opinion/hunch, of course.[/quote]
gustopoet wrote:
Hi InFiNiNcEX5, sounds reasonable to me. But remember rape is way different than ordinary "guy/girl" contact and assault doesn't mean fists against jocks necessarily....
Fair enough. Rape and assault are ultimately acts of overpowering.  I'm curious to know how you envision E & D engaging in these types of brutal scenarios and against what sorts of victims.  How is it that they would not managed to have been caught?  It's not quite the same thing as shooting paint ball guns at garages and running off into the night.


Last edited by InFiNiNcEX5 on Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 9:05 pm

gustopoet wrote:
InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
 They hadn't even entertained their sexuality with women let alone to be bold enough to over power them.  
They both fantasized about sexual domination.  
I don't know much about their sexuality or what they liked, but Dylan never said he wanted to be the dominant.

*slinks back into my corner*

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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 9:18 pm

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
 They hadn't even entertained their sexuality with women let alone to be bold enough to over power them.  
gustopoet wrote:
hey both fantasized about sexual domination.  
Many guys have that fantasy - especially guys that are frustrated and have trouble obtaining girls.  Fantasies of having control over something they don't at that point in time.   Fantasies are great outlets.  

areyoulistening wrote:
I don't know much about their sexuality or what they liked, but Dylan never said he wanted to be the dominant.

*slinks back into my corner*
I'm inclined to agree with you, actually. ;) Especially guys with foot fetish fantasies. Dylan could very well think of himself on the receiving end of that "bondage extreme".  Given his self loathing - this is not a long shot. But that's another subject..  ;)
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 9:26 pm

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
Eric boasted about credit card fraud on the Basement Tapes to up his bad ass credibility but *shrugs* anyone could idly boast and make claims over such things.  Is there proof that this happened?  Is it in the 11K?  Ultimately, when it comes down to it during their Main Event aka NBK: these two guys wanted the bombs to do the damage for them.  When that didn't happen, they ended up chaotically managing no more than a small potatoes shooting spree for under an hour.  I don't think they really wanted to do the dirty work much, if at all..just a little bit.. to pick off people after the bombs did the main work.  So, I doubt E &D getting their hands dirty with hardcore armed robbery.  Assault is ridiculous as they couldn't even physically manage the jocks. (Dan Lab hit Eric in the face.)  These guys were skinny, non muscular dudes.  I'm pretty sure rape is completely out of the question.  They hadn't even entertained their sexuality with women let alone to be bold enough to over power them.  When Eric grabs Brandi in that video and he pulls back you can see him smiling all kind of proud that he managed to grab a girl and pull her to him and against him. Probably the only guy/girl physical contact he's ever mustered ever and that was a big moment for him. ;) The guys were just so awkward and green in this arena.  I think they were just amateur teenagers pulling minor stunts and NBK was supposed to be their Grand Finale.  Just my opinion/hunch, of course.
I ENTIRELY agree that they wanted the bombs to the the majority of their "bidding" for them, and the improvisational shooting only occurred in the fashion it did because the bombs didn't function as they'd planned. The shooting was supposed to be reserved for fleeing students and school staff---at a distance, at that, and for a possible battle with the authorities that would end up on the scene.

I have discussed my personal views of Eric's sexual entry in his journal [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] And personally, I see a very sheepish (albeit THRILLED) look on his face and in his eyes in that little clip where he pulls Brandi back into him; not a sadistic, dominant, confident look of satisfaction.

Dylan, who once mentioned how he'd be "shaking like a leaf" once their plan was set in motion, seems as though he'd be doing quite the same in the presence of any female he found attractive, at least inwardly, x 10000000000.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
Eric boasted about credit card fraud on the Basement Tapes to up his bad ass credibility but *shrugs* anyone could idly boast and make claims over such things.  Is there proof that this happened?  Is it in the 11K?
Regarding this, I've never seen anything official, and I've rarely seen it discussed anywhere. However, I shared [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] here, and on the old forum. This is not proof, but it is indeed something to look into, in my opinion.

Wonderful post, InFiNiNcEX5!
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 9:45 pm

Most sexual assaults are not reported. Lots of people rape and get away with it every day. Keep in mind throughout all these posts I'm engaging in hypothetical scenarios, as was the original spirit of this thread.

In addition to shooting paint balls at houses, Brooks Brown also reported that they shot BB guns at little kids who were out trick or treating. Yes, this is not "assault" as we might commonly think of it, but it actually is a form of armed assault. Eric also tried to light the Brooks' bushes on fire. That could actually have resulted in injury or even death. At the very least it is arson.

My point in this thread is that as they built up to NBK I think they lost more and more inhibitions and needed more and more criminal stimulation. My second point would be since it is impossible to know whether there were additional crimes, the only thing we have to go on is the record. And that record suggests a pattern of escalating criminal activity that culminated in mass murder. So I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that they engaged in criminal activities of which we are presently unaware.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 9:50 pm

gustopoet wrote:
queenfarooq wrote:
I'm interested to know if you think these things are possible what is your basis for this? I'm just curious.
Yes I think they are possible. My basis, in general, is that I think Eric and Dylan evolved into serial criminals. They went from "rebel missions," to computer hacking, to felony theft... All along the way they are building and detonating pipe-bombs, vandalizing homes, trying to buy guns, and planning mass murder. We know that they made death-threats to enemies at school and illegally obtained and fired sawed-offs. That's what we know happened.   In other words I think the basis of their friendship was rooted in criminal activity. It is how they bonded and why they bonded. It was a mutual release and fantasy and catharsis. They both felt powerless and alienated and full of rage and hate. They used crime like a drug.  Then they OD'd.
For quite awhile now I have wondered if they relayed, in detail, multiple petty crimes they committed that went undetected and therefore unpunished on the infamous, suppressed basement tapes. I have been wondering if that is what JeffCo is so hellbent on hiding.

Personally, I don't think they set fire to any structures, at least homes or any other large structure of the sort, nor do I believe that they assaulted anyone, sexually or otherwise. But, I would not be surprised if other things went on, like rather consistent petty theft, or other forms of minor vandalism that increased in frequency, but not necessarily in method.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 9:50 pm

areyoulistening wrote:

I don't know much about their sexuality or what they liked, but Dylan never said he wanted to be the dominant.
Good point!

Still, I think most people who fantasize about being sexually dominant are compensating for a feeling of powerlessness and Dylan certainly had that. Eric on the other was pretty overt about wanting to be sexually dominant.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 9:55 pm

tfsa47090 wrote:
I see a very sheepish (albeit THRILLED) look on his face and in his eyes in that little clip where he pulls Brandi back into him; not a sadistic, dominant, confident look of satisfaction.
It's actually the part when he's putting on the gloves and coming up behind her that seems menacing. I agree there is a strong element of "shy teenager" to even this moment but it's also in some ways a creepy clip.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 10:04 pm

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
Fair enough. Rape and assault are ultimately acts of overpowering.  I'm curious to know how you envision E & D engaging in these types of brutal scenarios and against what sorts of victims.
How I envision it is as escalating "rebel missions" that continued after they were properly armed.

Against who? I almost hate to say this, but the only logical answer is: against whoever gave them a good opportunity. I really do believe they reached the point where they saw almost everyone, indiscriminately, as a potential target. I think at some point that's all they saw in other people.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 10:54 pm

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
I don't think they really wanted to do the dirty work much, if at all..just a little bit.. to pick off people after the bombs did the main work.  So, I doubt E &D getting their hands dirty with hardcore armed robbery.  Assault is ridiculous as they couldn't even physically manage the jocks. (Dan Lab hit Eric in the face.)  These guys were skinny, non muscular dudes.  I'm pretty sure rape is completely out of the question.  They hadn't even entertained their sexuality with women let alone to be bold enough to over power them.  When Eric grabs Brandi in that video and he pulls back you can see him smiling all kind of proud that he managed to grab a girl and pull her to him and against him. Probably the only guy/girl physical contact he's ever mustered ever and that was a big moment for him. ;) The guys were just so awkward and green in this arena.  I think they were just amateur teenagers pulling minor stunts and NBK was supposed to be their Grand Finale.  Just my opinion/hunch, of course.
tfsa47090 wrote:

I ENTIRELY agree that they wanted the bombs to the the majority of their "bidding" for them, and the improvisational shooting only occurred in the fashion it did because the bombs didn't function as they'd planned. The shooting was supposed to be reserved for fleeing students and school staff---at a distance, at that, and for a possible battle with the authorities that would end up on the scene.
Exactly.  I think the gist of what you and I are essentially saying here is that they wanted to harm in a remote fashion. Non physical contact.  Rape is out of the question in that regard.  Even during NBK, no attempt of rape was made (if, hypothetically speaking, they'd ever done as such prior to NBK).  One of them (I believe it was Dylan) , vocally entertains the desire to knife victims - but they never do.  Probably the vocalization was meant as a psychological threat as their urge to knife simply wasn't strong enough to be attempted.  E &D  just come across very haphazard and do not seem seasoned by prior escalated violence.

tfsa47090 wrote:
I have discussed my personal views of Eric's sexual entry in his journal [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] And personally, I see a very sheepish (albeit THRILLED) look on his face and in his eyes in that little clip where he pulls Brandi back into him; not a sadistic, dominant, confident look of satisfaction.
Yep.  Eric almost seems to melt in his 'sheepish' but proud-of-himself smile.  What starts out as a scene that is supposed to have a menacingly anonymous air to it rapidly becomes playfully mischievous and then as Eric turns to the camera, awkward and silly. I shall have to spend some time catching up on your views regarding Eric's sexuality. I recall writing a bit on the old forum about his controversial 'rape' scene in his journal which, to me, amounts to nothing more than a frustrated teenage boy wanting to be the alpha with females.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
Eric boasted about credit card fraud on the Basement Tapes to up his bad ass credibility but *shrugs* anyone could idly boast and make claims over such things.  Is there proof that this happened?  Is it in the 11K?
tfsa47090 wrote:
Regarding this, I've never seen anything official, and I've rarely seen it discussed anywhere. However, I shared [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] here, and on the old forum. This is not proof, but it is indeed something to look into, in my opinion.
I recall seeing this post before and it is definitely a curious find.  Hm. Wasn't every teenage geek hacking into AOL in the 90's? I recall it was a bit of a joke because it was so easy to do.   I know Dylan was pretty heavily into it as he told some guy in school he frequented  PrOgs & PuNTerS, when they asked why he wore that AoLeet t-shirt all the time (poor Dyl). Also.. something that seems a bit off: shouldn't the aoblaze credit readby REB not by Reb?

tfsa47090 wrote:
Wonderful post, InFiNiNcEX5!
  Backatcha. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 11:14 pm

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
I don't think they really wanted to do the dirty work much, if at all..just a little bit.. to pick off people after the bombs did the main work.  So, I doubt E &D getting their hands dirty with hardcore armed robbery.  Assault is ridiculous as they couldn't even physically manage the jocks. (Dan Lab hit Eric in the face.)  These guys were skinny, non muscular dudes.  I'm pretty sure rape is completely out of the question.  They hadn't even entertained their sexuality with women let alone to be bold enough to over power them.  When Eric grabs Brandi in that video and he pulls back you can see him smiling all kind of proud that he managed to grab a girl and pull her to him and against him. Probably the only guy/girl physical contact he's ever mustered ever and that was a big moment for him. ;) The guys were just so awkward and green in this arena.  I think they were just amateur teenagers pulling minor stunts and NBK was supposed to be their Grand Finale.  Just my opinion/hunch, of course.
tfsa47090 wrote:

I ENTIRELY agree that they wanted the bombs to the the majority of their "bidding" for them, and the improvisational shooting only occurred in the fashion it did because the bombs didn't function as they'd planned. The shooting was supposed to be reserved for fleeing students and school staff---at a distance, at that, and for a possible battle with the authorities that would end up on the scene.
Exactly.  I think the gist of what you and I are essentially saying here is that they wanted to harm in a remote fashion. Non physical contact.  Rape is out of the question in that regard.  Even during NBK, no attempt of rape was made (if, hypothetically speaking, they'd ever done as such prior to NBK).  One of them (I believe it was Dylan) , vocally entertains the desire to knife victims - but they never do.  Probably the vocalization was meant as a psychological threat as their urge to knife simply wasn't strong enough to be attempted.  E &D  just come across very haphazard and do not seem seasoned by prior escalated violence.
I think a huge amount of Dylan's vocalizations and "sound effects" were definitely psychological threats, as well as a "hysterical reaction" to what he was doing. I really agree completely that they were very inexperienced at what they were doing, despite how horrendous all of it actually was.

tfsa47090 wrote:
I have discussed my personal views of Eric's sexual entry in his journal [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] And personally, I see a very sheepish (albeit THRILLED) look on his face and in his eyes in that little clip where he pulls Brandi back into him; not a sadistic, dominant, confident look of satisfaction.
InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
Yep.  Eric almost seems to melt in his 'sheepish' but proud-of-himself smile.  What starts out as a scene that is supposed to have a menacingly anonymous air to it rapidly becomes playfully mischievous and then as Eric turns to the camera, awkward and silly. I shall have to spend some time catching up on your views regarding Eric's sexuality. I recall writing a bit on the old forum about his controversial 'rape' scene in his journal which, to me, amounts to nothing more than a frustrated teenage boy wanting to be the alpha with females.
This is an excellent description of how that little "film" played out. In fact, it seems that it is how almost ALL of their "cinematic pieces" ended up. Incredibly hilarious, teenage, geeky humor. I think I remember your post on the old forum. I need to find that, is it still there? If I am remembering correctly, and it is your post that I am recollecting, it was the first time I'd EVER read an opinion about that entry that actually made sense to me. I honestly don't think it was about rape, and I don't think he was even implying or referring to it as rape. I think all of his little puns and quips, which are all there when read thoroughly (despite the atrocious penmanship, if that's the version one reads) have been glossed over, misread, and erroneously entwined with other elements of the entry by people half skimming it. I get into all of this in that post of mine. Lots of it is my opinion, but regarding certain things he said, not all of them are as open to personal interpretation as many would like to believe they are. They've been incredibly misinterpreted. Particularly because of the fact that he did commit mass murder after composing it, I think it leads people to believe/assume that he was capable of sexual violence simply because he was focused on other types of violence.


InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:


InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
Eric boasted about credit card fraud on the Basement Tapes to up his bad ass credibility but *shrugs* anyone could idly boast and make claims over such things.  Is there proof that this happened?  Is it in the 11K?
tfsa47090 wrote:
Regarding this, I've never seen anything official, and I've rarely seen it discussed anywhere. However, I shared [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] here, and on the old forum. This is not proof, but it is indeed something to look into, in my opinion.
I recall seeing this post before and it is definitely a curious find.  Hm. Wasn't every teenage geek hacking into AOL in the 90's?  I recall it was a bit of a joke because it was so easy to do.   I know Dylan was pretty heavily into it as he told some guy in school he frequented  PrOgs & PuNTerS, when they asked why he wore that AoLeet t-shirt all the time (poor Dyl). Also.. something that seems a bit off: shouldn't the aoblaze credit readby REB not by Reb?
That is a good observation, but for all we know, it could have been originally stylized in all capital letters, but transcribed without them for these archival pages. Also, he may not have always stylized it with all capitals himself.

I'm not certain it's him, but I was somewhat shocked when I saw it all those years ago.

Like I said, I don't think he was the only person to use "Reb" as a nickname/handle, but I just don't believe that it was rampant back then like it is now. And, now, it is rampant because almost everyone is doing it as an impersonation of, or as an homage of sorts to Eric himself.

If that was him, it is not something where he'd want his full real name plastered all over it, like he did with his DOOM wads; but he'd still want some kind of recognition, so he'd make sure to add "by Reb" to its "official" title.

I don't think we'll ever know for certain, but I sure hope to find out more.


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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2013 1:07 am

areyoulistening wrote:
I don't know much about their sexuality or what they liked, but Dylan never said he wanted to be the dominant.

*slinks back into my corner*
 



A fellow student in gym class reported in police documents that Dylan liked to aggressively tackle girls during games. She got so mad at him for tackling her that he almost got into a fight with her boyfriend. He kept tackling her and other girls after that argument, in spite of calls to stop.

Dylan may have been using gym class as an outlet for his aggressiveness and/or pent-up sexual desires for girls.

So, something tells me Dylan had it in him to want violent contact with girls and gym class (pretty much as close as it was gonna come to his bondage fantasies) may have provided this outlet for him. There does not seem to be any evidence he actually sexually assaulted anybody, nor that Eric did that either. In day-to-day life, they seemed quite restrained around girls.

I'm one of those who don't think Dylan was just a gentle lamb who acted out of character during the massacre but someone who had built up a lot of anger and repressed his aggressiveness, up to a point, but visible before the massacre during angry outbursts and gym class.
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PostSubject: Re: Second thoughts   Second thoughts Icon_minitimeThu Nov 21, 2013 5:02 pm

JayJay wrote:

I'm one of those who don't think Dylan was just a gentle lamb who acted out of character during the massacre but someone who had built up a lot of anger and repressed his aggressiveness, up to a point, but visible before the massacre during angry outbursts and gym class.
It's also very evident in the basement tape transcripts / accounts that Dylan was an eager participant in the attack. He was looking forward to NBK. He is openly murderous. In one account of the basement tapes he is described as drinking JD and eating candy, then : "playing with the candy pieces. He holds up one shape. "Hey, guys," he says, "it's a house." His boredom and disdain and contempt for everyone and everything are evident in that one statement and gesture. Quite the joker, our Vodka.

I think he was a cold-blooded killer. The only thing that kept his kill-count so low was the crappy weapons he had to work with.

BTW, the source for that quote from Dylan is: "I Really Am Sorry … but War’s War’ Columbine killers’ videotapes record raging anger amid remorse for parents" By Karen Abbott and Dan Luzadder, News Staff Writers.
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