Is it weird to miss them?

I never met Eric or Dylan, but I miss them, I miss their presence in this world, all the things they're missing out on - Star Wars, music, other movies, life. Sometimes I'll see a group of teens out and about and I'll think, "damn, that could've been Eric and Dylan, had they lived and not did NBK." I just find some days where....I miss them. Is that weird?

Not really. Most who have researched Columbine can and sometimes do feel some sadness when thinking about how very different E&D's lives could have been IF they had gotten help. Or if they hadn't went through with the attack, etc.

Also how very different the lives of the victims would have been as well.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Not really. Most who have researched Columbine can and sometimes do feel some sadness when thinking about how very different E&D's lives could have been IF they had gotten help. Or if they hadn't went through with the attack, etc.

Also how very different the lives of the victims would have been as well.  

Exactly I think many of us all across the world took those 15 people into our hearts forever. Even if we didn’t know them

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

QuestionMark wrote:

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

It would be impossible for one to think E&D didn't have thoughts about certain things like that.

The bigger question I have is did they think/feel their lives would never get any better?

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

It would be impossible for one to think E&D didn't have thoughts about certain things like that.

The bigger question I have is did they think/feel their lives would never get any better?

I always assumed they didn’t, especially Dylan

I miss them too, i feel the same with Kimveer Gill and many others without condoning their shootings. It would've been interesting if they were still alive to react to this world, see how they would survive with the increase of money value, etc.

QuestionMark wrote:

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

So many Dooms have been released since their death. The favorite bands released new albums and Eric and Dylan will never be able to listen to them. Except if there is indeed an afterlife and they are spending their days playing video games, watching movies, listening to music and shooting with Hitler and Timothy McVeigh.

Neah wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

So many Dooms have been released since their death. The favorite bands released new albums and Eric and Dylan will never be able to listen to them. Except if there is indeed an afterlife and they are spending their days playing video games, watching movies, listening to music and shooting with Hitler and Timothy McVeigh.

Very true, i have a similar view of the afterlife too, i believe that Eric & Dylan are doing the stuff you mentioned.

Neah wrote:

Except if there is indeed an afterlife and they are spending their days playing video games, watching movies, listening to music and shooting with Hitler and Timothy McVeigh.

Neah wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

So many Dooms have been released since their death. The favorite bands released new albums and Eric and Dylan will never be able to listen to them. Except if there is indeed an afterlife and they are spending their days playing video games, watching movies, listening to music and shooting with Hitler and Timothy McVeigh.

They have very different thoughts of what the afterlife would be like too.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Neah wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

So many Dooms have been released since their death. The favorite bands released new albums and Eric and Dylan will never be able to listen to them. Except if there is indeed an afterlife and they are spending their days playing video games, watching movies, listening to music and shooting with Hitler and Timothy McVeigh.

They have very different thoughts of what the afterlife would be like too.

Did they believe in afterlife by the way? I can imagine Dylan believing in afterlife, but I am not sure for Eric.

Neah wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Neah wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

So many Dooms have been released since their death. The favorite bands released new albums and Eric and Dylan will never be able to listen to them. Except if there is indeed an afterlife and they are spending their days playing video games, watching movies, listening to music and shooting with Hitler and Timothy McVeigh.

They have very different thoughts of what the afterlife would be like too.

Did they believe in afterlife by the way? I can imagine Dylan believing in afterlife, but I am not sure for Eric.

I may be mixing the two writings up but I thought Eric talked about being able to explore the deepest sea when he dies etc. and being able to travel to the places that people can’t explore when they die: Wasn’t it Eric who said it was like a dream state?

Screamingophelia wrote:

Neah wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Neah wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

So many Dooms have been released since their death. The favorite bands released new albums and Eric and Dylan will never be able to listen to them. Except if there is indeed an afterlife and they are spending their days playing video games, watching movies, listening to music and shooting with Hitler and Timothy McVeigh.

They have very different thoughts of what the afterlife would be like too.

Did they believe in afterlife by the way? I can imagine Dylan believing in afterlife, but I am not sure for Eric.

I may be mixing the two writings  up but I thought Eric talked about being able to explore the deepest sea when he dies etc. and being able to travel to the places that people can’t explore when they die: Wasn’t it Eric who said it was like a dream state?

I don't know, but I should re-read their diaries so I'll see.

I wonder if Dylan ever thought: "What if the afterlife isn't better than life on earth, but forever?" What if depression exists in the afterlife too and has no end? This is what the Greeks thought: enjoy your life because the afterlife will be eternal boredom.

Damn, I don't even believe in the afterlife and yet I managed to depress myself...

I don't usually get any emotional attachment to cases i research.

I did feel really bad for Sharon Tate as i was reading about Manson though. So young, so beautiful, and weeks away from having her baby.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

It would be impossible for one to think E&D didn't have thoughts about certain things like that.

The bigger question I have is did they think/feel their lives would never get any better?

I figured it was either that or that NBK would be better than anything life could offer them. Which is pretty sad if you think about it.

Halcyon666 wrote:

I miss them too, i feel the same with Kimveer Gill and many others without condoning their shootings. 

I miss William even though I never knew him that well when he was alive, I regret I never really talked to him before.

Yeah, sometimes I wish Columbine would've never happened, that all 15 people were still alive, they've missed out on so much.

QuestionMark wrote:

Halcyon666 wrote:

I miss them too, i feel the same with Kimveer Gill and many others without condoning their shootings. 

I miss William even though I never knew him that well when he was alive, I regret I never really talked to him before.

I feel the same with William too, i had an opportunity to talk to him on ED, i should've done so because i loved his videos and his ED edits.

I'm pretty sure Eric said he hated Star Wars in his massive rant about what he loves and hates.

I get the same sometimes, like when you read Eric's letter to the game developers talking about a potential sequel and Doom movie - they'd have loved the quality and availability of games these days. Also with music, movies, technological advances, all sorts.

QuestionMark wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Sometimes I do wonder if Eric and Dylan fully realized they were going to miss out on so many things in life.

It would be impossible for one to think E&D didn't have thoughts about certain things like that.

The bigger question I have is did they think/feel their lives would never get any better?

I figured it was either that or that NBK would be better than anything life could offer them. Which is pretty sad if you think about it.

Very sad to think they couldn't find ANYTHING in their future to stick around for, not one tiny hope that made them want to live. Sadly it seems that all they really looked forward to was NBK.

aperiogaming wrote:

I'm pretty sure Eric said he hated Star Wars in his massive rant about what he loves and hates.

Yeah, I read that, but that's what makes things so sad, so many crappy Star Wars films have come out since he and Dylan died and he's not around for us to hear his hilarious rants about the films. Dylan was a very poetic writer, he's not around any longer to share his unique, poetic thoughts on life. It's just - very sad.

Mmmhmm, right. I mean out of all of the Dylan Klebold quotes you could've chosen....

42099_4EVA wrote:

Mmmhmm, right. I mean out of all of the Dylan Klebold quotes you could've chosen....

Yeah, he was a great writer one could’ve picked a plethora of beautiful things he wrote...

Exactly, I mean, I know Dylan probably didn't mean it, because he was mentally angry and disturbed at that moment, (because I don't think either were genuinely racist, they just used racism as one of their many platforms of anger and for lashing out) but that doesn't mean what he said wasn't offensive or wasn't racist, because it was and for someone to choose for that particular quote to be in their profile - does that mean that they agree with or are fine with Dylan using such a racist word in such a racist way?? Ugh....

42099_4EVA wrote:

Exactly, I mean, I know Dylan probably didn't mean it, because he was mentally angry and disturbed at that moment, (because I don't think either were genuinely racist, they just used racism as one of their many platforms of anger and for lashing out) but that doesn't mean what he said wasn't offensive or wasn't racist, because it was and for someone to choose for that particular quote to be in their profile - does that mean that they agree with or are fine with Dylan using such a racist word in such a racist way?? Ugh....

I agree.

I think in their quest for chaos and destruction they wanted to be as nasty as possible. It was horrible, gross, uncalled for and evil but it was one day out of nearly 6,000 days of their lives. It was a facet but not the whole picture.

42099_4EVA wrote:

Exactly, I mean, I know Dylan probably didn't mean it, because he was mentally angry and disturbed at that moment, (because I don't think either were genuinely racist, they just used racism as one of their many platforms of anger and for lashing out) but that doesn't mean what he said wasn't offensive or wasn't racist, because it was and for someone to choose for that particular quote to be in their profile - does that mean that they agree with or are fine with Dylan using such a racist word in such a racist way?? Ugh....

I'm sorry to jump in here but need to say this:
Dylan "not meaning it" or just saving it in anger does not change the fact that he did say racist things and meant them. Both boys said racist things and meant them.
I don't think Dylan gets a pass on this because he was sad or angry or misunderstood.  NOTHING excuses this. Keep in mind while feeling sorry for Dylan and/or Eric , is that the last thing a young African American boy heard before being brutally murdered was a racial slur. Isaiah Schoels last word was "mom". That is simply heartbreaking.

Oldmare wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

Exactly, I mean, I know Dylan probably didn't mean it, because he was mentally angry and disturbed at that moment, (because I don't think either were genuinely racist, they just used racism as one of their many platforms of anger and for lashing out) but that doesn't mean what he said wasn't offensive or wasn't racist, because it was and for someone to choose for that particular quote to be in their profile - does that mean that they agree with or are fine with Dylan using such a racist word in such a racist way?? Ugh....

I'm sorry to jump in here but need to say this:
Dylan "not meaning it" or just saving it in anger does not change the fact that he did say racist things and meant them. Both boys said racist things and meant them.
I don't think Dylan gets a pass on this because he was sad or angry or misunderstood.  NOTHING excuses this. Keep in mind while feeling sorry for Dylan and/or Eric , is that the last thing a young African American boy heard before being brutally murdered was a racial slur. Isaiah Schoels last word was "mom". That is simply heartbreaking.

Well, I agree, I agree, because - number one, I am black

However I don't think Dylan said it because he was racist, I think he said it as a shock factor to Isaiah. The reason why I don't think that Dylan was racist is that he seemed to love listening to Tupac. I know racist people...They won't even touch music made by black people. Also in Plattsburgh, Eric had black friends and while Eric said racist stuff, he also turned right around and said one of the things he hated was racism, people not liking someone because they were Hispanic, black or etc.

So, but I think both boys said racist things, so that they could appear to be as edgy and as mean/bad ass as possible. However, you are right, it doesn't excuse the fact that Dylan said such a racist, harsh word before killing what was essentially the only black victim out of the entire massacre, but like I said, I honestly don't believe he said it because he hated Isaiah because he was black, I believe he said it to further shock and terrorize Isaiah. That's just my belief, but again, no, *nothing* excuses the use of that word.

Oldmare wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

Exactly, I mean, I know Dylan probably didn't mean it, because he was mentally angry and disturbed at that moment, (because I don't think either were genuinely racist, they just used racism as one of their many platforms of anger and for lashing out) but that doesn't mean what he said wasn't offensive or wasn't racist, because it was and for someone to choose for that particular quote to be in their profile - does that mean that they agree with or are fine with Dylan using such a racist word in such a racist way?? Ugh....

They said and wrote hateful racist things. It doesn't matter why anyone thinks they did or didn't mean it.  They said it while killing a teenage black boy. They wrote about it and talked about it. Many friends and witnesses stated they heard  the boys saying racist things. They may not jave been before but that doesnt matter.  They were then.  
I'm a bit confused why you are so eager ti excuse the boys for racist behavior? Maybe it doesn't fit into your idea of them?
They murdered a bunch of kids and said racist things. Nothing excuses these facts in my opinion. I don't care if they were just being edgy.  
They were edgy racists.

On one hand I can agree with you. They tormented Isaiah by calling him a nigger as they murdered him and there is no way (and no reason) to minimize what that must have been like for him to experience and for his family to be informed of after his death.

On the other hand, maybe there is some insight to be gained by looking at why they might have behaved that way. I think that it is significant that there is evidence that neither one was a genuine "racist." I agree with the part that I bolded from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]'s response, but I would like to expand on her comments by using Eric thoughts to explain myself.

This was Eric attempting to explain just how much of a racist mother fucker he is.

Quote :

And I am one racist mother fucker too, fuck the niggers and spics and chinks, unless they are cool, but sometimes they are so fucking retarded they deserve to be ripped on. Some people go through life begging to be shot, and white fucks are just the same. If I could nuke the world I would, because so far I hate you all. There are probably around 10 people I wouldn’t want to die, but hey, who ever said life is fair should be shot like the others, too.

"Fuck the niggers spics and chinks, unless they are cool." He can't even force himself to commit to his supreme racism for a single sentence here and he follows it up by adding that "white fucks" are just as deserving of death.

I think that we can all grasp the obvious from this passage, that Eric had no real racial animosity even though he was trying his best to pretend. I would say that it was even less likely that Dylan was racist, considering that he never really bothered to address it in his journal at all.

A similar sentiment appears in the basement tapes.

Quote :

They go on to talk about how they hate all races: “niggers, spics, Jews, fucking whites.” They also mention enemies that abused them and friends who didn’t do enough to defend them. In one segment, Eric and Dylan spend more than an hour discussing their hatred for humanity and their fellow students, whom they vowed to kill.

Their anger knew no bounds and racism was a convenient vehicle for that, but it was ultimately meaningless considering that they disparaged every race including their own and even expressed anger at their own friends (mostly or exclusively white, I am sure).

If we can accept that neither of them was racist (and please share your own opinion if you believe that I am incorrect), then we might want to ask where the racist ideas came from and why they would single Isaiah out during the shooting. I think Eric explained that in a separate passage, which he followed with a racist, homophobic and misogynistic rant, all at once.

Quote :

All right you pathetic fools listen up; I have figured it out. The human race strives for excellence in life and community always wanting to bring more =good= into the community. And nullify “bad” things. Anyone who thinks differently than the majority or the leaders is deemed “unusual” or weird or crazy. People want to be a part of something, a family, a service, a club, a union, a community, whatever. That’s what humans want. Who cares what you as an individual thinks, you must do what you are told, whether it is jump off a bridge or drive on the right side of the road. Protesters in the past protested because the human race that was dominant (Ghandhi and the Brits or the king or the Americans) wasn’t working out = they had fault = they failed = their ideas didn’t work. Humans don’t change that much, they only get better technology to do their work quicker/easier.

People always say we shouldn’t be racist. Why not? Blacks ARE different. Like it or not they are. They started out on the bottom so why not keep em there. It took them centuries to convince us that they are equal but they still use their color as an excuse or they just discriminate us because we are white. Fuck you, we should ship yer black asses back to Afrifuckingca were you came from. We brought you here and we will take you back. America = white.

Gays. . . . well all gays, ALL gays, should be killed. Mit keine fragen [German: without questions]. Lesbians are fun to watch if they are hot but still, its not human. It’s a fucking disease. You don’t see bulls or roosters trying to fuck, do you? No, I didn’t think so.

Women, you will always be under men. It’s been seen throughout nature, males are almost always doing the dangerous shit while the women stay back. It’s your animal instincts, deal with it or commit suicide, just do it quick. That’s all for now.

I've always found it interesting to examine the way in which the ideas flow through Eric's writings. The initial set-up here is the explanation and inspiration for the rant that follows.

So, what do we have? I think the bold portion of the quote is the important part. Eric is simply emphasizing this point. Eric is angry that he is not valued as an individual. He is angry that he is being controlled and told what to do and having his morals and life choices dictated to him, knowing the judgment that will come if he deviates from the pressured conformity of the community in which he lives. How does he respond to these thoughts? He lashes out with the most rebellious ideas that he can muster (and I think it's ironic that every one of these rebellious statements that he comes up with is such a total cliche that he probably ripped straight from some 90s version of edgy, racist websites, with no thought or conviction behind it). He makes a point to declare that he actually happens to believe the opposite of everything that he has been taught and lived by for his entire life, after all. What a coincidence! Does he actually believe any of it? I doubt it, but that's not the point.

The point is that he is not one of those people who "wants to be a part of something" and he wants to make damn sure that you know it. He is not trying to blend in with the herd anymore because the herd never provided him with any protection anyway. They expected him to behave according to their rules but when the predators showed up, he was the perfect target - small, weak and dangerously insecure. Even his own friends didn't seem to have his back when it counted. What good is sacrificing your individuality and submitting to groupthink if the group is just going to throw you to the wolves to save themselves when it's convenient? And how much do you want to bet that the truth at Columbine was that racism (and all sorts of arbitrary hatred) was tolerated for certain people under certain circumstances (*cough*Another Jew in the oven!*cough*), revealing the UTTER HYPOCRISY of the prevailing authority.

This is Eric's way of separating himself from his community and from his society's values and nothing more. Sure, he's being edgy, but he's being edgy for a very specific reason. He is rejecting society. He is rejecting their values and their morality. The murder-suicide that followed was his blood oath toward this purpose. Eric was trying to prove that he was beyond it all and there was absolutely no way to control him and that nothing beyond his own decisions mattered.

Quote :

Try it sometime if you think you are worthy, which you probably will you little shits, drop all your beliefs and views and ideas that have been burned into your head and try to think about why your here. But I bet most of you fuckers can’t even think that deep, so that is why you must die. How dare you think that I and you are part of the same species when we are sooooooo different. You aren’t human. You are a robot. You don’t take advantage of your capabilities given to you at birth. You just drop them and hop onto the boat and head down the stream of life with all the other fuckers of your time. Well god damn it I won’t be part of it! I have thought too much, realized too much, found out too much, and I am too self aware to just stop what I am thinking and go back to society because what I do and think isn’t “right” or “morally accepted.” NO, NO, NO. God fucking damn it NO! I will sooner die than betray my own thoughts. But before I leave this worthless place, I will kill who ever I deem unft for anything at all. Especially life.

I think the saddest thing about Eric's rebellion and his desire to be his own man and not "copy others" is that he was so clearly incapable of coming up with original thoughts because his life had been so limited up to that point and he was only beginning to be introduced to the ideas that might eventually lead someone to a healthy sense of psychological freedom. Maybe I'm being harsh, and maybe there's no such thing as an original thought but I think that the truth is that Eric honestly couldn't think of any other way to "be himself" than to transform himself into the polar opposite of everything he had been taught. He was stuck, suffering in his own little box, observing the hypocrisy and total control of the powers that be within his horribly safe, civil and sanitized suburban dreamscape (a concept more than a reality) and in his mind, murder-suicide was literally the only way to escape the cycle.

So, no, I don't think that Eric was a racist but maybe I'm overanalyzing.

sscc wrote:

Oldmare wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

Exactly, I mean, I know Dylan probably didn't mean it, because he was mentally angry and disturbed at that moment, (because I don't think either were genuinely racist, they just used racism as one of their many platforms of anger and for lashing out) but that doesn't mean what he said wasn't offensive or wasn't racist, because it was and for someone to choose for that particular quote to be in their profile - does that mean that they agree with or are fine with Dylan using such a racist word in such a racist way?? Ugh....

They said and wrote hateful racist things. It doesn't matter why anyone thinks they did or didn't mean it.  They said it while killing a teenage black boy. They wrote about it and talked about it. Many friends and witnesses stated they heard  the boys saying racist things. They may not jave been before but that doesnt matter.  They were then.  
I'm a bit confused why you are so eager ti excuse the boys for racist behavior? Maybe it doesn't fit into your idea of them?
They murdered a bunch of kids and said racist things. Nothing excuses these facts in my opinion. I don't care if they were just being edgy.  
They were edgy racists.

On one hand I can agree with you. They tormented Isaiah by calling him a nigger as they murdered him and there is no way (and no reason) to minimize what that must have been like for him to experience and for his family to be informed of after his death.

On the other hand, maybe there is some insight to be gained by looking at why they might have behaved that way. I think that it is significant that there is evidence that neither one was a genuine "racist." I agree with the part that I bolded from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]'s response, but I would like to expand on her comments by using Eric thoughts to explain myself.

This was Eric attempting to explain just how much of a racist mother fucker he is.

Quote :

And I am one racist mother fucker too, fuck the niggers and spics and chinks, unless they are cool, but sometimes they are so fucking retarded they deserve to be ripped on. Some people go through life begging to be shot, and white fucks are just the same. If I could nuke the world I would, because so far I hate you all. There are probably around 10 people I wouldn’t want to die, but hey, who ever said life is fair should be shot like the others, too.

"Fuck the niggers spics and chinks, unless they are cool." He can't even force himself to commit to his supreme racism for a single sentence here and he follows it up by adding that "white fucks" are just as deserving of death.

I think that we can all grasp the obvious from this passage, that Eric had no real racial animosity even though he was trying his best to pretend. I would say that it was even less likely that Dylan was racist, considering that he never really bothered to address it in his journal at all.

A similar sentiment appears in the basement tapes.

Quote :

They go on to talk about how they hate all races: “niggers, spics, Jews, fucking whites.” They also mention enemies that abused them and friends who didn’t do enough to defend them. In one segment, Eric and Dylan spend more than an hour discussing their hatred for humanity and their fellow students, whom they vowed to kill.

Their anger knew no bounds and racism was a convenient vehicle for that, but it was ultimately meaningless considering that they disparaged every race including their own and even expressed anger at their own friends (mostly or exclusively white, I am sure).

If we can accept that neither of them was racist (and please share your own opinion if you believe that I am incorrect), then we might want to ask where the racist ideas came from and why they would single Isaiah out during the shooting. I think Eric explained that in a separate passage, which he followed with a racist, homophobic and misogynistic rant, all at once.

Quote :

All right you pathetic fools listen up; I have figured it out. The human race strives for excellence in life and community always wanting to bring more =good= into the community. And nullify “bad” things. Anyone who thinks differently than the majority or the leaders is deemed “unusual” or weird or crazy. People want to be a part of something, a family, a service, a club, a union, a community, whatever. That’s what humans want. Who cares what you as an individual thinks, you must do what you are told, whether it is jump off a bridge or drive on the right side of the road. Protesters in the past protested because the human race that was dominant (Ghandhi and the Brits or the king or the Americans) wasn’t working out = they had fault = they failed = their ideas didn’t work. Humans don’t change that much, they only get better technology to do their work quicker/easier.

People always say we shouldn’t be racist. Why not? Blacks ARE different. Like it or not they are. They started out on the bottom so why not keep em there. It took them centuries to convince us that they are equal but they still use their color as an excuse or they just discriminate us because we are white. Fuck you, we should ship yer black asses back to Afrifuckingca were you came from. We brought you here and we will take you back. America = white.

Gays. . . . well all gays, ALL gays, should be killed. Mit keine fragen [German: without questions]. Lesbians are fun to watch if they are hot but still, its not human. It’s a fucking disease. You don’t see bulls or roosters trying to fuck, do you? No, I didn’t think so.

Women, you will always be under men. It’s been seen throughout nature, males are almost always doing the dangerous shit while the women stay back. It’s your animal instincts, deal with it or commit suicide, just do it quick. That’s all for now.

I've always found it interesting to examine the way in which the ideas flow through Eric's writings. The initial set-up here is the explanation and inspiration for the rant that follows.

So, what do we have? I think the bold portion of the quote is the important part. Eric is simply emphasizing this point. Eric is angry that he is not valued as an individual. He is angry that he is being controlled and told what to do and having his morals and life choices dictated to him, knowing the judgment that will come if he deviates from the pressured conformity of the community in which he lives. How does he respond to these thoughts? He lashes out with the most rebellious ideas that he can muster (and I think it's ironic that every one of these rebellious statements that he comes up with is such a total cliche that he probably ripped straight from some 90s version of edgy, racist websites, with no thought or conviction behind it). He makes a point to declare that he actually happens to believe the opposite of everything that he has been taught and lived by for his entire life, after all. What a coincidence! Does he actually believe any of it? I doubt it, but that's not the point.

The point is that he is not one of those people who "wants to be a part of something" and he wants to make damn sure that you know it. He is not trying to blend in with the herd anymore because the herd never provided him with any protection anyway. They expected him to behave according to their rules but when the predators showed up, he was the perfect target - small, weak and dangerously insecure. Even his own friends didn't seem to have his back when it counted. What good is sacrificing your individuality and submitting to groupthink if the group is just going to throw you to the wolves to save themselves when it's convenient? And how much do you want to bet that the truth at Columbine was that racism (and all sorts of arbitrary hatred) was tolerated for certain people under certain circumstances (*cough*Another Jew in the oven!*cough*), revealing the UTTER HYPOCRISY of the prevailing authority.

This is Eric's way of separating himself from his community and from his society's values and nothing more. Sure, he's being edgy, but he's being edgy for a very specific reason. He is rejecting society. He is rejecting their values and their morality. The murder-suicide that followed was his blood oath toward this purpose. Eric was trying to prove that he was beyond it all and there was absolutely no way to control him and that nothing beyond his own decisions mattered.

Quote :

Try it sometime if you think you are worthy, which you probably will you little shits, drop all your beliefs and views and ideas that have been burned into your head and try to think about why your here. But I bet most of you fuckers can’t even think that deep, so that is why you must die. How dare you think that I and you are part of the same species when we are sooooooo different. You aren’t human. You are a robot. You don’t take advantage of your capabilities given to you at birth. You just drop them and hop onto the boat and head down the stream of life with all the other fuckers of your time. Well god damn it I won’t be part of it! I have thought too much, realized too much, found out too much, and I am too self aware to just stop what I am thinking and go back to society because what I do and think isn’t “right” or “morally accepted.” NO, NO, NO. God fucking damn it NO! I will sooner die than betray my own thoughts. But before I leave this worthless place, I will kill who ever I deem unft for anything at all. Especially life.

I think the saddest thing about Eric's rebellion and his desire to be his own man and not "copy others" is that he was so clearly incapable of coming up with original thoughts because his life had been so limited up to that point and he was only beginning to be introduced to the ideas that might eventually lead someone to a healthy sense of psychological freedom. Maybe I'm being harsh, and maybe there's no such thing as an original thought but I think that the truth is that Eric honestly couldn't think of any other way to "be himself" than to transform himself into the polar opposite of everything he had been taught. He was stuck, suffering in his own little box, observing the hypocrisy and total control of the powers that be within his horribly safe, civil and sanitized suburban dreamscape (a concept more than a reality) and in his mind, murder-suicide was literally the only way to escape the cycle.

So, no, I don't think that Eric was a racist but maybe I'm overanalyzing.

I agree with SSCC, I don't think Eric nor Dylan were racist either, but considering the bullying they went through (probably even by Isaiah himself, or does some only think that white kids only do bullying? if you think that, I will direct you to the case that recently happened in Spotsylvania County, Virginia this week where a black, female teen beat a white teen to a pulp - and was bullying the white teen) Perhaps that's why they both used racism as another tool to vent out their anger and rage.

Many times before, with me dealing with depression, I've said that I hate EVERYONE in the world and I've said some pretty crappy things about everyone, no matter their race or what have you, but that didn't mean I was racist, it just meant that there were individuals of all races who were the cause of why I was battling severe depression and so I generalized all people, no matter the race, because of just verbally lashing out against one person of that certain race who hurt me, if that makes any sense, I hope it does.

So, I think Eric and Dylan were generalizing them hating all blacks, all Hispanics, Jews and etc, because individuals of those particular races were the ones who were bullying them, so that made them hate everyone of that particular race as a whole. It's wrong but neither of us can judge how a person will act when they're severely hurt. While what they said was wrong, I can understand why they said it.

However what I don't get is how people try to use Eric and Dylan for their own vessels of racism, because you're taking their mental and emotional problems and using it for your own racist bullshit and that's wrong, because they weren't racist, no matter what they said, they weren't, but anger and mental and emotional pain is a powerful thing, it can make you say some fucked up, horrible shit.

42099_4EVA wrote:

sscc wrote:

Oldmare wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

Exactly, I mean, I know Dylan probably didn't mean it, because he was mentally angry and disturbed at that moment, (because I don't think either were genuinely racist, they just used racism as one of their many platforms of anger and for lashing out) but that doesn't mean what he said wasn't offensive or wasn't racist, because it was and for someone to choose for that particular quote to be in their profile - does that mean that they agree with or are fine with Dylan using such a racist word in such a racist way?? Ugh....

They said and wrote hateful racist things. It doesn't matter why anyone thinks they did or didn't mean it.  They said it while killing a teenage black boy. They wrote about it and talked about it. Many friends and witnesses stated they heard  the boys saying racist things. They may not jave been before but that doesnt matter.  They were then.  
I'm a bit confused why you are so eager ti excuse the boys for racist behavior? Maybe it doesn't fit into your idea of them?
They murdered a bunch of kids and said racist things. Nothing excuses these facts in my opinion. I don't care if they were just being edgy.  
They were edgy racists.

On one hand I can agree with you. They tormented Isaiah by calling him a nigger as they murdered him and there is no way (and no reason) to minimize what that must have been like for him to experience and for his family to be informed of after his death.

On the other hand, maybe there is some insight to be gained by looking at why they might have behaved that way. I think that it is significant that there is evidence that neither one was a genuine "racist." I agree with the part that I bolded from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]'s response, but I would like to expand on her comments by using Eric thoughts to explain myself.

This was Eric attempting to explain just how much of a racist mother fucker he is.

Quote :

And I am one racist mother fucker too, fuck the niggers and spics and chinks, unless they are cool, but sometimes they are so fucking retarded they deserve to be ripped on. Some people go through life begging to be shot, and white fucks are just the same. If I could nuke the world I would, because so far I hate you all. There are probably around 10 people I wouldn’t want to die, but hey, who ever said life is fair should be shot like the others, too.

"Fuck the niggers spics and chinks, unless they are cool." He can't even force himself to commit to his supreme racism for a single sentence here and he follows it up by adding that "white fucks" are just as deserving of death.

I think that we can all grasp the obvious from this passage, that Eric had no real racial animosity even though he was trying his best to pretend. I would say that it was even less likely that Dylan was racist, considering that he never really bothered to address it in his journal at all.

A similar sentiment appears in the basement tapes.

Quote :

They go on to talk about how they hate all races: “niggers, spics, Jews, fucking whites.” They also mention enemies that abused them and friends who didn’t do enough to defend them. In one segment, Eric and Dylan spend more than an hour discussing their hatred for humanity and their fellow students, whom they vowed to kill.

Their anger knew no bounds and racism was a convenient vehicle for that, but it was ultimately meaningless considering that they disparaged every race including their own and even expressed anger at their own friends (mostly or exclusively white, I am sure).

If we can accept that neither of them was racist (and please share your own opinion if you believe that I am incorrect), then we might want to ask where the racist ideas came from and why they would single Isaiah out during the shooting. I think Eric explained that in a separate passage, which he followed with a racist, homophobic and misogynistic rant, all at once.

Quote :

All right you pathetic fools listen up; I have figured it out. The human race strives for excellence in life and community always wanting to bring more =good= into the community. And nullify “bad” things. Anyone who thinks differently than the majority or the leaders is deemed “unusual” or weird or crazy. People want to be a part of something, a family, a service, a club, a union, a community, whatever. That’s what humans want. Who cares what you as an individual thinks, you must do what you are told, whether it is jump off a bridge or drive on the right side of the road. Protesters in the past protested because the human race that was dominant (Ghandhi and the Brits or the king or the Americans) wasn’t working out = they had fault = they failed = their ideas didn’t work. Humans don’t change that much, they only get better technology to do their work quicker/easier.

People always say we shouldn’t be racist. Why not? Blacks ARE different. Like it or not they are. They started out on the bottom so why not keep em there. It took them centuries to convince us that they are equal but they still use their color as an excuse or they just discriminate us because we are white. Fuck you, we should ship yer black asses back to Afrifuckingca were you came from. We brought you here and we will take you back. America = white.

Gays. . . . well all gays, ALL gays, should be killed. Mit keine fragen [German: without questions]. Lesbians are fun to watch if they are hot but still, its not human. It’s a fucking disease. You don’t see bulls or roosters trying to fuck, do you? No, I didn’t think so.

Women, you will always be under men. It’s been seen throughout nature, males are almost always doing the dangerous shit while the women stay back. It’s your animal instincts, deal with it or commit suicide, just do it quick. That’s all for now.

I've always found it interesting to examine the way in which the ideas flow through Eric's writings. The initial set-up here is the explanation and inspiration for the rant that follows.

So, what do we have? I think the bold portion of the quote is the important part. Eric is simply emphasizing this point. Eric is angry that he is not valued as an individual. He is angry that he is being controlled and told what to do and having his morals and life choices dictated to him, knowing the judgment that will come if he deviates from the pressured conformity of the community in which he lives. How does he respond to these thoughts? He lashes out with the most rebellious ideas that he can muster (and I think it's ironic that every one of these rebellious statements that he comes up with is such a total cliche that he probably ripped straight from some 90s version of edgy, racist websites, with no thought or conviction behind it). He makes a point to declare that he actually happens to believe the opposite of everything that he has been taught and lived by for his entire life, after all. What a coincidence! Does he actually believe any of it? I doubt it, but that's not the point.

The point is that he is not one of those people who "wants to be a part of something" and he wants to make damn sure that you know it. He is not trying to blend in with the herd anymore because the herd never provided him with any protection anyway. They expected him to behave according to their rules but when the predators showed up, he was the perfect target - small, weak and dangerously insecure. Even his own friends didn't seem to have his back when it counted. What good is sacrificing your individuality and submitting to groupthink if the group is just going to throw you to the wolves to save themselves when it's convenient? And how much do you want to bet that the truth at Columbine was that racism (and all sorts of arbitrary hatred) was tolerated for certain people under certain circumstances (*cough*Another Jew in the oven!*cough*), revealing the UTTER HYPOCRISY of the prevailing authority.

This is Eric's way of separating himself from his community and from his society's values and nothing more. Sure, he's being edgy, but he's being edgy for a very specific reason. He is rejecting society. He is rejecting their values and their morality. The murder-suicide that followed was his blood oath toward this purpose. Eric was trying to prove that he was beyond it all and there was absolutely no way to control him and that nothing beyond his own decisions mattered.

Quote :

Try it sometime if you think you are worthy, which you probably will you little shits, drop all your beliefs and views and ideas that have been burned into your head and try to think about why your here. But I bet most of you fuckers can’t even think that deep, so that is why you must die. How dare you think that I and you are part of the same species when we are sooooooo different. You aren’t human. You are a robot. You don’t take advantage of your capabilities given to you at birth. You just drop them and hop onto the boat and head down the stream of life with all the other fuckers of your time. Well god damn it I won’t be part of it! I have thought too much, realized too much, found out too much, and I am too self aware to just stop what I am thinking and go back to society because what I do and think isn’t “right” or “morally accepted.” NO, NO, NO. God fucking damn it NO! I will sooner die than betray my own thoughts. But before I leave this worthless place, I will kill who ever I deem unft for anything at all. Especially life.

I think the saddest thing about Eric's rebellion and his desire to be his own man and not "copy others" is that he was so clearly incapable of coming up with original thoughts because his life had been so limited up to that point and he was only beginning to be introduced to the ideas that might eventually lead someone to a healthy sense of psychological freedom. Maybe I'm being harsh, and maybe there's no such thing as an original thought but I think that the truth is that Eric honestly couldn't think of any other way to "be himself" than to transform himself into the polar opposite of everything he had been taught. He was stuck, suffering in his own little box, observing the hypocrisy and total control of the powers that be within his horribly safe, civil and sanitized suburban dreamscape (a concept more than a reality) and in his mind, murder-suicide was literally the only way to escape the cycle.

So, no, I don't think that Eric was a racist but maybe I'm overanalyzing.

I agree with SSCC, I don't think Eric nor Dylan were racist either, but considering the bullying they went through (probably even by Isaiah himself, or does some only think that white kids only do bullying? if you think that, I will direct you to the case that recently happened in Spotsylvania County, Virginia this week where a black, female teen beat a white teen to a pulp - and was bullying the white teen) Perhaps that's why they both used racism as another tool to vent out their anger and rage.

Many times before, with me dealing with depression, I've said that I hate EVERYONE in the world and I've said some pretty crappy things about everyone, no matter their race or what have you, but that didn't mean I was racist, it just meant that there were individuals of all races who were the cause of why I was battling severe depression and so I generalized all people, no matter the race, because of just verbally lashing out against one person of that certain race who hurt me, if that makes any sense, I hope it does.

So, I think Eric and Dylan were generalizing them hating all blacks, all Hispanics, Jews and etc, because individuals of those particular races were the ones who were bullying them, so that made them hate everyone of that particular race as a whole. It's wrong but neither of us can judge how a person will act when they're severely hurt. While what they said was wrong, I can understand why they said it.

However what I don't get is how people try to use Eric and Dylan for their own vessels of racism, because you're taking their mental and emotional problems and using it for your own racist bullshit and that's wrong, because they weren't racist, no matter what they said, they weren't, but anger and mental and emotional pain is a powerful thing, it can make you say some fucked up, horrible shit.

You both put it much more eloquently than I could. So I’ll just third it

42099_4EVA wrote:

I agree with SSCC, I don't think Eric nor Dylan were racist either, but considering the bullying they went through (probably even by Isaiah himself

I don't think Isaiah - who IIRC was a pretty scrawny guy and a transfer student to boot - ever picked on Eric and Dylan personally.

42099_4EVA wrote:

So, I think Eric and Dylan were generalizing them hating all blacks, all Hispanics, Jews and etc, because individuals of those particular races were the ones who were bullying them, so that made them hate everyone of that particular race as a whole

I wouldn't be shocked if this was the case but I don't think minorities were the ones picking on Eric and Dylan. Their tormentors consisted largely of upper class athletes that were wrestlers and football players. 

I think Eric and Dylan's racism was essentially a way to punch down. Hell it's part of the reason racism became so popular with poor, working class whites - it's more comforting knowing that there are people beneath you. I'm pretty sure this has already been stated, but just in case I just wanted to make that clear.

I think some of their friends who were gay and also people of color Talked about how They never uttered those hateful words around them...

QuestionMark wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

I agree with SSCC, I don't think Eric nor Dylan were racist either, but considering the bullying they went through (probably even by Isaiah himself

I don't think Isaiah - who IIRC was a pretty scrawny guy and a transfer student to boot - ever picked on Eric and Dylan personally.

42099_4EVA wrote:

So, I think Eric and Dylan were generalizing them hating all blacks, all Hispanics, Jews and etc, because individuals of those particular races were the ones who were bullying them, so that made them hate everyone of that particular race as a whole

I wouldn't be shocked if this was the case but I don't think minorities were the ones picking on Eric and Dylan. Their tormentors consisted largely of upper class athletes that were wrestlers and football players. 

I think Eric and Dylan's racism was essentially a way to punch down. Hell it's part of the reason racism became so popular with poor, working class whites - it's more comforting knowing that there are people beneath you. I'm pretty sure this has already been stated, but just in case I just wanted to make that clear.

You don't think Isaiah, who - correct me if I'm wrong, was a jock/athlete, a well known one at that, you don't think he didn't say not once, "man, look at those freaks"? I don't think just minorities were picking on E&D, but I think it was a combo of whites and minorities because let's face it, if you're different, you're going to get picked on by teens of all races, it's just how it is. When I was in high school, a prestigious preparatory school, I wasn't just picked on by white students, but by black students too, because I liked The Eagles, Led Zeppelin and all different types of things, and so I'm sure that's the way it goes at all schools. It's not just upper-class, white athletes who bully other kids, it's minority kids too, like Emma Gonzalez, who said she picked on Nikolas Cruz and Emma, is not white at all.

As much as Isaiah cried "mommy" or "mom" before he was shot or whatever, I don't think he was the type of kid whereas he never talked shit about those who were different than him, I don't think he was just this anti-bullying, anti-ridiculing kid, nah, I don't believe it. Now, that didn't warrant him being killed but come on, he more than likely saw E&D in their all black and with their Rammstein shirts and thought they were freaks and probably laughed when he saw E&D being bullied and probably participated verbally in the ridiculing, other minority kids who weren't outcasts at Columbine probably did too. I never will believe it was just white, upper-class kids doing the bullying, because that's not realistic, at all.

42099_4EVA wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

I agree with SSCC, I don't think Eric nor Dylan were racist either, but considering the bullying they went through (probably even by Isaiah himself

I don't think Isaiah - who IIRC was a pretty scrawny guy and a transfer student to boot - ever picked on Eric and Dylan personally.

42099_4EVA wrote:

So, I think Eric and Dylan were generalizing them hating all blacks, all Hispanics, Jews and etc, because individuals of those particular races were the ones who were bullying them, so that made them hate everyone of that particular race as a whole

I wouldn't be shocked if this was the case but I don't think minorities were the ones picking on Eric and Dylan. Their tormentors consisted largely of upper class athletes that were wrestlers and football players. 

I think Eric and Dylan's racism was essentially a way to punch down. Hell it's part of the reason racism became so popular with poor, working class whites - it's more comforting knowing that there are people beneath you. I'm pretty sure this has already been stated, but just in case I just wanted to make that clear.

You don't think Isaiah, who - correct me if I'm wrong, was a jock/athlete, a well known one at that, you don't think he didn't say not once, "man, look at those freaks"? I don't think just minorities were picking on E&D, but I think it was a combo of whites and minorities because let's face it, if you're different, you're going to get picked on by teens of all races, it's just how it is. When I was in high school, a prestigious preparatory school, I wasn't just picked on by white students, but by black students too, because I liked The Eagles, Led Zeppelin and all different types of things, and so I'm sure that's the way it goes at all schools. It's not just upper-class, white athletes who bully other kids, it's minority kids too, like Emma Gonzalez, who said she picked on Nikolas Cruz and Emma, is not white at all.

As much as Isaiah cried "mommy" or "mom" before he was shot or whatever, I don't think he was the type of kid whereas he never talked shit about those who were different than him, I don't think he was just this anti-bullying, anti-ridiculing kid, nah, I don't believe it.  Now, that didn't warrant him being killed but come on, he more than likely saw E&D in their all black and with their Rammstein shirts and thought they were freaks and probably laughed when he saw E&D being bullied and probably participated verbally in the ridiculing, other minority kids who weren't outcasts at Columbine probably did too. I never will believe it was just white, upper-class kids doing the bullying, because that's not realistic, at all.

Agreed. We are all capable of bullying and ostracizing.

We simply don’t know the full story on anyone that day.

42099_4EVA wrote:

You don't think Isaiah, who - correct me if I'm wrong, was a jock/athlete, a well known one at that

Was he? I'm legit asking here, I know almost nothing about the victims. 

42099_4EVA wrote:

It's not just upper-class, white athletes who bully other kids, it's minority kids too, like Emma Gonzalez, who said she picked on Nikolas Cruz and Emma, is not white at all.

I agree that minorities are just as capable of discrimination as anyone else, but the thing is Columbine was like 99% white and like everyone agreed that the jocks were out of control. So that's why I singled out the upper class white jocks; people gave them a free pass for everything, and few, if any, in the school administration went out of their way for anyone except that one demographic.

QuestionMark wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

You don't think Isaiah, who - correct me if I'm wrong, was a jock/athlete, a well known one at that

Was he? I'm legit asking here, I know almost nothing about the victims. 

42099_4EVA wrote:

It's not just upper-class, white athletes who bully other kids, it's minority kids too, like Emma Gonzalez, who said she picked on Nikolas Cruz and Emma, is not white at all.

I agree that minorities are just as capable of discrimination as anyone else, but the thing is Columbine was like 99% white and like everyone agreed that the jocks were out of control. So that's why I singled out the upper class white jocks; people gave them a free pass for everything, and few, if any, in the school administration went out of their way for anyone except that one demographic.

Yes and Isaiah was one of the jocks, so there ya go! Now take it or leave it damn it!

LOL, I'm kidding, lol no but seriously, Isaiah was a jock too, so who's to say he wasn't bullying E&D the way his other, fellow jocks were.

42099_4EVA wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

42099_4EVA wrote:

You don't think Isaiah, who - correct me if I'm wrong, was a jock/athlete, a well known one at that

Was he? I'm legit asking here, I know almost nothing about the victims. 

42099_4EVA wrote:

It's not just upper-class, white athletes who bully other kids, it's minority kids too, like Emma Gonzalez, who said she picked on Nikolas Cruz and Emma, is not white at all.

I agree that minorities are just as capable of discrimination as anyone else, but the thing is Columbine was like 99% white and like everyone agreed that the jocks were out of control. So that's why I singled out the upper class white jocks; people gave them a free pass for everything, and few, if any, in the school administration went out of their way for anyone except that one demographic.

Yes and Isaiah was one of the jocks, so there ya go! Now take it or leave it damn it!

LOL, I'm kidding, lol no but seriously, Isaiah was a jock too, so who's to say he wasn't bullying E&D the way his other, fellow jocks were.

Interesting.

I'll concede that it's possible Isaiah picked on Eric and Dylan (or perhaps others) but I find it unlikely. Call it a hunch I suppose.