Why doesn't the evidence fit the story?

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A lot of the bullet casing evidence doesn't fit the official story and I've been trying to figure out which bullet casings were shot
at who/in which direction.

For example, where are the bullets the were fired at Corey DePooter under table 14?  The evidence only lists one bullet that
was fired from Eric's carbine near that table rather than the 3-4 bullets total listed in the autopsy report for DePooter (one of them being fire by Dylan too). However, there are only 3 9mm casings in the entire middle section of the library, including the 2 that hit Daniel Mauser. None of these bullets were fired by Dylan.

The evidence near Daniel Mauser looks correct. There are 2 bullet casings from Eric's carbine which matches the official story of Eric firing 2 shots at Daniel.

What about Dylan's shotgun shells too? There are 2 shell casings near Kyle Velasquez's body which I would assume to be the
shots that killed Kyle. Then there are 2 shell casings near the south computer table which would be the shots that hit Ireland,
Steepleton, and Hall. Then Dylan fired 3 more times with his shotgun in the Library (according to the official story) which would be once at Matt Kechter, once at table 1, and once at table 2. That means that Dylan would have had to reload another time (dropping 2 shotgun shell casings) in order to shoot that many times in the library, but there are no other shell casings from Dylan's shotgun to be found inside the library. Could some of those shots have actually been fired by Eric? How accurate is the official story?

I wouldn't be surprised that there's some holes in the official story, and I would be curious to hear your take on what happened from mulling over the shell casings. Never had an easy time picturing Kelly, John, or Corey's death. Also, I don't know dick about guns. I wonder, does it matter here whether it came from slugs or shot?  Another necessary question, are we sure that covers every bullet? It doesn't cover every number on the floor obviously.

Assuming those were covered, it does mention 2 shell casings were still in his shotgun which you didn't seem to mention. Where the other four went is an interesting question. Any possibility he put them in his pocket or something similar?

Also unless they were kicked I'm not sure I see the initial shots at Evan Todd.

I figured Daniel shoved the chair at Eric as a reflex to a shot grazing his hand/ear.  I now wonder if it had to do with John being let go because they said the library was going to explode, and so Daniel figured it was resist now or die in the explosion.

I wonder where that story about a 223 casing being found in the school came from.

Interesting Ethan. I respect you know more than I do, but cryptic enough where I have no clue what you are talking about to say for sure, ha.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is saying they pulled the chair out themselves rather than Mauser.

I'll certainly read it if and when you do, and wish I knew which statement to look at. I'll be re-reading e. g. Crystal Woodman's because of this most likely. It does indeed take years of mulling over the same details and when you realize the first seven stories you heard were wrong gives you a certain humility when faced with other stories.

The "1, 2, 3" being false is a pretty common one and one I can definitely remember believing long ago. The big one for me is that I never could quite wrap my head around the whole "plan B", "they started shooting when they noticed the bombs failed" narrative, and what really gave me the confidence to question that and got the ball rolling to question so many other aspects of that narrative is how they kept saying the library was going to explode.

Even if all they meant was that they were going to shoot at the bombs and make them explode later (and I'm not sure that's all they meant), that confidence seems to contradict the whole "welp looks like they are duds, let's start shooting" narrative. Not to mention, e. g., if you were sure they were duds when 11:17 passed, there was no reason for Dylan to check on them, and no reason to start shooting outside rather than inside, and no reason to tell John to run.

But I don't wish to derail another thread. It is curious there is just one casing near Corey. Apparently, spent bullets were found in his backpack. Not sure if that helps saying where the other bullets might have come from, or maybe that suggests a cover story. Perhaps the strangest thing for me at first glance is so many bullets by Eric's body, perhaps more than anywhere else. Did he shoot a bunch of times into the ceiling before killing himself, or what?

EthanEmerson wrote:

The chair situation is the kind of 'easter egg' that made an impact on my life in ways that go far beyond the investigation... it's not necessarily important or relevant to anything about the library events of even Columbine itself, but it's more like... something interesting to discover that has the potential to change someone's worldview and how they relate to life itself (I really mean that, even though it probably sounds ridiculous)...

Well damn, now I'm actually really curious what happened with that chair. I know you're not gonna tell me outright, but, maybe you could direct me to the police report pages that were relevant? You could PM it to me if you don't want the rest of the public to be spoon-fed the answer.

QuestionMark wrote:

EthanEmerson wrote:

The chair situation is the kind of 'easter egg' that made an impact on my life in ways that go far beyond the investigation... it's not necessarily important or relevant to anything about the library events of even Columbine itself, but it's more like... something interesting to discover that has the potential to change someone's worldview and how they relate to life itself (I really mean that, even though it probably sounds ridiculous)...

Well damn, now I'm actually really curious what happened with that chair. I know you're not gonna tell me outright, but, maybe you could direct me to the police report pages that were relevant? You could PM it to me if you don't want the rest of the public to be spoon-fed the answer.

As am I...

All I see so far from e. g. Lapp, Parker is that maybe Daniel tried to grab Eric's legs rather than hit him with a chair. That's not too different though.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Do you by any chance know where to find the details on the bullet casings found in the backpack in the 11k? As for the significant amount of bullet casings near the suspect's bodies, I think those may be the casings from the final shootout with the police. Perhaps Eric and Dylan were shooting at the police near where they chose to kill themselves, rather than right next to the windows.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I am very curious about your findings with the chair situation!

I'd love to know about the chair situation as well. I've never believed that Daniel pushed the chair at Eric, rather it was a reflex when he got shot through the hand. I think the kids in there were that scared that none of them would have gone up against either of them as they'd see what was happening to kids around them.

mwilliam wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Do you by any chance know where to find the details on the bullet casings found in the backpack in the 11k? As for the significant amount of bullet casings near the suspect's bodies, I think those may be the casings from the final shootout with the police. Perhaps Eric and Dylan were shooting at the police near where they chose to kill themselves, rather than right next to the windows.

I don't know where or if it's in the 11k without going through it, but it wasn't from the shootout, and I think it was just the bullet not the casing. Here's one source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

katherinex wrote:

I'd love to know about the chair situation as well. I've never believed that Daniel pushed the chair at Eric, rather it was a reflex when he got shot through the hand. I think the kids in there were that scared that none of them would have gone up against either of them as they'd see what was happening to kids around them.

My first interpretation was the same as yours. Something has to account for why then somebody tried to strike back at them, by himself, and not earlier. Daniel had already been shot, so it could have been half or wholly reflexive to push the chair. Like one punching a wall or the floor from pain. One can imagine it with a grunt or a sigh or a curse with the pain shooting through his hand.

I still think that's very possible, but I'm sure you know how so often especially in this case our first interpretation is wrong, and has to stand despite us learning all kinds of new things. I think now with a fair bit of confidence, though certainly not 100%, that John Savage was told to run because the library was supposed to explode with the students in it.

All the witnesses  seem to recall them saying this repeatedly. The only other interpretation I can put on them saying that is so people would stand up. But, there's no way that's more plausible than them honestly believing it. You don't need to build and plant bombs, or try to make them explode later, in order to say "we have a bomb."

And a few witnesses recall them saying to John specifically that the library exploding soon is why they're telling him to run. Also, it really seems the only thing that makes sense. With the usual idea of Columbine as a shooting rather than a failed bombing, what's the point of telling John to run? They could have just not shot him. But if the library is going to explode, he better run if he wants to live.

And it's after John ran that whatever happened with Daniel happened. So, I now lean towards the idea that he thought it was now or never, that everybody in the library was going to be killed in an explosion anyway, just like they said was going to happen.

Though, Ethan seems to have a third interpretation, and bases it on the 11k.  Not too many even saw what happened to Daniel. From what I can see, 2 witnesses say he went for Eric's leg, and one said he pushed a chair. If the former is true, that also seems to take away from your and my first impression. Also seems moronic unless, say, he thought he was about to get blown up anyway and might as well try something.

Well, this thread was a great mindfuck. Right when I'm starting to distance myself from it all I'm beginning to consider completely new theories.

EthanEmerson wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I so hear that!! 19 years later and I still find new things when flipping through pages to find something for some other, unrelated reason...

You really have to love data to get into this case, it's endless, even though there are about 35,000 pages of documents - a finite number - there's always more to see

... and always more connections to make and random things to wonder about.

I also feel like I'll never really have a full understanding of what happened and who they were.

I've also noticed that, according to the library evidence diagrams, it was mainly Eric who was shooting at the police from the library. There are very few 9mm casings linked to Dylan's Tec-9 near the library windows. As for Dylan's shotgun shells, it's hard to determine because they are only found where Dylan reloaded his shotgun, not where he fired it. Either way, Dylan shot a very minimal amount of gunshots at the police, which leads me to believe that Eric was the only one with the police shootout fantasy, while Dylan didn't really care for shooting at law enforcement.

Also, according to Bree Pasquale's witness statement, who was in clear view of Eric and Dylan during the initial shootout with law enforcement from the library, she stated was certain that the weapon Eric was
using to shoot out the window was a pump-action weapon, Eric's shotgun. That would explain the shotgun shells traced to Eric's shotgun near the chair near Window 4 (where Bree described as Eric shooting from). This would also make sense as Eric walked into the library wielding the shotgun, so I would imagine he just kept using that weapon when he walked to the windows to shoot at the police. For some reason (probably because of the Zero Hour documentary which got me interested in Columbine in the first place), I always just assumed Eric used his carbine to shoot at the police for all of the gunfights, so I found this info to be pretty interesting.


Finally, as I said above, the final shootout with the cops likely took place near where Eric and Dylan killed themselves based on the significant number of Eric's 9mm casings in that area.

properground wrote:

I also feel like I'll never really have a full understanding of what happened and who they were.

Exactly, we will never know what they were truly thinking inside their heads. I think the thing about Columbine that makes it the most interesting is that Eric and Dylan had fairly normal childhoods (aside from Eric moving around a lot and Dylan's struggles with the CHIPS program). They never had any sort of behavioral issues indicating poor mental health when they were kids. With most teenage mass shootings, the perpetrator usually had many warning signs since they were very young. Eric and Dylan, however, seem to have acquired their mental health issues in high school.

I would also be interested to hear how accurate these bullet casing tracings are if anyone has more knowledge on that. Just a single 9mm casing being mistraced to Eric's carbine instead of Dylan's Tec-9 or vice versa has the potential to screw up important parts of the story.

EthanEmerson wrote:

Yeah, I'm not sure 100% what happened even based on what I found, but I came across something that made me rethink the whole thing. The diagrams show he was found with his hand around the leg of one of the chairs, which I just realized the other night when I was organizing some data.

I don't want to remember incorrectly, so don't take this as what I actually read, but I think there was a witness who saw one of the shooters pull a chair out from the table abruptly and Daniel was holding onto it... witnesses from a different vantage point thought Daniel threw the chair, but I think this witness was across from Daniel's table and had a clearer view. I could be completely wrong about what I'm remembering though, so I will go back to find what I read and post it here!

I think I'll have some time on Sunday to go revisit this and make some sense out of what I found and post it

That makes some sense for sure. It reconciles that some said he pushed a chair, others say he grabbed Eric's leg, and that it seems too bold for anyone to go after them. He didn't go after them, and was holding onto a chair leg as surely many others were doing.  Also there seem to be a lot of fake martyr narratives with this case.

The problems as I see it are Eric's leg doesn't look like a chair leg, and supposedly they said he tried to jump him. If, say, witnesses heard a leg mentioned, and assumed they meant Eric's leg, and they pretended he tried to jump them to warn others against doing it, or something like that, then it seems a pretty reasonable explanation.

Also, about the diagrams, could argue it looks like Daniel is pushing one chair with his hand and another with his foot.

The report from the critical incident team says he shot 6 shot with the double-barrel in the library, which seems to support that had only shot 3 times.

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cakeman wrote:

That makes some sense for sure. It reconciles that some said he pushed a chair, others say he grabbed Eric's leg, and that it seems too bold for anyone to go after them. He didn't go after them, and was holding onto a chair leg as surely many others were doing.  Also there seem to be a lot of fake martyr narratives with this case.

The problems as I see it are Eric's leg doesn't look like a chair leg, and supposedly they said he tried to jump him. If, say, witnesses heard a leg mentioned, and assumed they meant Eric's leg, and they pretended he tried to jump them to warn others against doing it, or something like that, then it seems a pretty reasonable explanation.

Also, about the diagrams, could argue it looks like Daniel is pushing one chair with his hand and another with his foot.

Was reading through Patti Blair's statement for another reason and came across this,
"Patti Blair stated she next observed one of the suspects {unable to identify) walking in the middle section towards the table that a student was hiding under, (later identified as table [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])."  
This was Daniel Mauser

"When asked to describe the student under the table, Patti Blair stated she thought he was wearing a blue ballcap, blue sweatshirt and jeans. Patti Blair then stated she could not be absolutely certain concerning that individual's clothing.
Patti Blair stated she did distinctly remembering seeing the suspect walk up to the student and kick him and then state, "What's so funny." Patti Blair stated the student did not respond after which the suspect shot the victim in the head.
Patti Blair stated all she could see were the suspect's hands which appeared to be holding a weapon which she could not describe.
Patti Blair stated as the victim was shot she recalled the victim moving abruptly after which he was shot again.
Patti Blair stated she then heard one of the suspects state, "Did you see that he jumped up at me." Patti Blair went onto state that comment was followed by another statement something to the effect of "Oh did you see that he like jolted, I can't believe that."

This suggests that E & D did not say that Mauser jumped at them in defense, but rather his body jolted involuntarily after being shot.

thelmar wrote:

cakeman wrote:

That makes some sense for sure. It reconciles that some said he pushed a chair, others say he grabbed Eric's leg, and that it seems too bold for anyone to go after them. He didn't go after them, and was holding onto a chair leg as surely many others were doing.  Also there seem to be a lot of fake martyr narratives with this case.

The problems as I see it are Eric's leg doesn't look like a chair leg, and supposedly they said he tried to jump him. If, say, witnesses heard a leg mentioned, and assumed they meant Eric's leg, and they pretended he tried to jump them to warn others against doing it, or something like that, then it seems a pretty reasonable explanation.

Also, about the diagrams, could argue it looks like Daniel is pushing one chair with his hand and another with his foot.

Was reading through Patti Blair's statement for another reason and came across this,
"Patti Blair stated she next observed one of the suspects {unable to identify) walking in the middle section towards the table that a student was hiding under, (later identified as table [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])."  
This was Daniel Mauser

"When asked to describe the student under the table, Patti Blair stated she thought he was wearing a blue ballcap, blue sweatshirt and jeans. Patti Blair then stated she could not be absolutely certain concerning that individual's clothing.
Patti Blair stated she did distinctly remembering seeing the suspect walk up to the student and kick him and then state, "What's so funny." Patti Blair stated the student did not respond after which the suspect shot the victim in the head.
Patti Blair stated all she could see were the suspect's hands which appeared to be holding a weapon which she could not describe.
Patti Blair stated as the victim was shot she recalled the victim moving abruptly after which he was shot again.
Patti Blair stated she then heard one of the suspects state, "Did you see that he jumped up at me." Patti Blair went onto state that comment was followed by another statement something to the effect of "Oh did you see that he like jolted, I can't believe that."

This suggests that E & D did not say that Mauser jumped at them in defense, but rather his body jolted involuntarily after being shot.

Going to agree that it seems much more likely his body jolted after being shot given the witness statement. But making him in to a martyr is a much nicer story, just like with Rachael. I'm sure the "pushing the chair" story helped his family and friends to cope.

hvernon wrote:

Going to agree that it seems much more likely his body jolted after being shot given the witness statement. But making him in to a martyr is a much nicer story, just like with Rachael. I'm sure the "pushing the chair" story helped his family and friends to cope.

It's definitely confusing because there are other witnesses who heard comments suggesting that Daniel was fighting back somehow.
Heather Jacobsen, who was under the same table as Patti Blair, had this to say:
"as the suspect she first descr1bed moved towards table [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], she saw him stop a couple of feet south of that table. Heather Jacobsen next heard the suspect state, "hey, something!" Heather Jacobsen clarified she could not hear exactly what the suspect said, but then saw the "chairs move" that were attempting to conceal the student hiding under the table. According to Heather Jacobsen, the suspect either kicked or used his hands to move the chairs
Heather Jacobsen explained the chairs  were moved  in a rapid reckless manner, after which, the victim  was shot twice. Heather Jacobsen stated it was her recollection after the suspect had shot the victim twice, the other Suspect asked, "what was he trying to do, charge you?" Heather Jacobsen related there was some laughter regarding that situation"

Heather seems to be saying that Eric yanked the chair out from the table. We know that Daniel was holding onto the chair when he died. I'm speculating, but maybe the combination of Eric yanking the chair while Daniel hung onto it, and the force of the gunshot, caused Daniel's body move. Maybe he had been trying to shield himself by pulling the chair closer rather than trying to push it out at Eric.

Trying to revive the original topic as I think it could add some interesting discussion that hasn't been touched before.

cakeman wrote:

Another necessary question, are we sure that covers every bullet? It doesn't cover every number on the floor obviously. Assuming those were covered, it does mention 2 shell casings were still in his shotgun which you didn't seem to mention.

I did consider the fired shotgun shells in Klebold's shotgun found near his body, though I should have mentioned them. For him to fire 3 more times, he would have to have reloaded once more, thus droppping 2 more shell casings on the floor. Meaning he fired a maximum of 2 more shotgun rounds in the library. This, at the minimum means that Klebold might not have fired his shotgun at Valeen Schnurr or Mark Kintgen, and rather it was Harris. At the maximum it could mean that Matt Kechter was killed by Harris rather than Klebold. Witness reports regarding both events are vague on who was shooting, especially the shooting of Matt Kechter, which was not covered in detail in any witness statements. I believe only one witness, besides Craig Scott who was not looking, mentions seeing the shooting of Matt Kechter in all of the library witness reports, and quite briefly. Also, most witness reports widely vary on identification of who did what, and in what chronological order it happened.

Furthermore, there are 2 more shell casings from Klebold's shotgun found near the science wing. These are likely the spent casings of the remaining 2 rounds fired in the library as any activity there is generally considered to have occured after the library events. It is likely the shotgun shells fired in the science wing are the ones still remaining in the shotgun, as that is the last firing of his shotgun that the evidence supports. (This is at least considering the science wing events did happen after the library events, according to the official report and most witness reports, though it could have happened during the hallway events before the library).  

cakeman wrote:

Any possibility he put them in his pocket or something similar? Also unless they were kicked I'm not sure I see the initial shots at Evan Todd.

You do raise a good point about casings being kicked around/put into pockets and dropped later.
One interesting piece of evidence is the spent 9mm casing in an ammo pouch attached to Harris' belt. Perhaps an ejected casing happened to bounce off an object while ejecting and land in an open pouch? Or perhaps he picked one up and placed it in there for whatever reason?

I'm not sure whether your referring to the shotgun shells fired by Harris at Evan Todd, which can be found in evidence near the library entrance and traced back to Harris' shotgun. As for when Klebold fired his Tec-9 at one of the northern library rooms to taunt Evan Todd, I believe Evan Todd describes him as firing multiple rounds. Rather, evidence suggests Klebold only fired 1 round.



As for another topic, what happened to Harris' 13th magazine for his carbine? Only 12 were found at the school, with apparently none found at his home. Perhaps he lost one when shooting his guns in the woods?

A lot of the "story" hinges on witness statements (e.g. the JeffCo diagrams only use witness statements), and only tangentially involves ballistics. There are many instances of evidence-proven events that weren't mentioned and others that are flat-out wrong.

mwilliam wrote:

As for another topic, what happened to Harris' 13th magazine for his carbine? Only 12 were found at the school, with apparently none found at his home.
Perhaps he lost one when shooting his guns in the woods?

I looked into this a bit. He seems to has 13 up until at least some time in March (pg. 10374), likely late-March because of Dylan's comment about Passover. They went to Rampart on March 6th, so I don't think he would've lost it there.

The only odd things I could find in their notes starts on page 26024, where he seems to have over-written the '2' in "12 clips + 1 loaded". Could just be a writing mistake and nothing more. Also, in one of Dylan's drawings, he writes that he needs to "file off clip" on a to-do list (pg. 26521), which also could be nothing, but it makes me wonder what part was being/wanting to be filed.

A theory I had stemming from this comment was that they tried to alter one of the 10-round magazines to have a higher capacity, and, in doing so, ruined it. But, I couldn't find anything in the evidence list that shows that they had any such magazine body or other parts (follower, spring, etc.). I suppose it's still possible, but seems like Eric would've kept something—he kept cut-off BB gun barrels, after all. So, I'm at a loss.

Sarin Gas Attack wrote:

A lot of the "story" hinges on witness statements (e.g. the JeffCo diagrams only use witness statements), and only tangentially involves ballistics. There are many instances of evidence-proven events that weren't mentioned and others that are flat-out wrong.

That is precisely what I have concluded. Most witness reports are undetailed and inaccurate (at least from the official story), with the exception of few, notably Bree Pasquale. If I recall, few even mention the east section events taking place before the west section events. Overall, I believe the majority of the official story (of the library attacks in particular) as far as the order of events goes. The more detailed witness reports all seem to support that. However, some details of particular events can be debated, even as far as which shooter did the shooting. Another issue is that most of the detailed interviews took place a month after the attack.

As for the outside events, there are few detailed reports and with very mixed orders of events. As far as I'm aware, nobody has ever created an order of events for the outside attacks with the same level of detail as the library events. For example, Harris throwing bombs on the roof, Klebold's magazine jamming and tossing it in the grass, Klebold throwing the pipe bomb where Anne Hochalter was originally lying, etc.

Sarin Gas Attack wrote:

The only odd things I could find in their notes starts on page 26024, where he seems to have over-written the '2' in "12 clips + 1 loaded". Could just be a writing mistake and nothing more.

Good eye, I never noticed that. Though it does seem to be, as you said, a writing mistake and nothing more. It's hard to recognize a 3 under that 2.

Sarin Gas Attack wrote:

Also, in one of Dylan's drawings, he writes that he needs to "file off clip" on a to-do list (pg. 26521), which also could be nothing, but it makes me wonder what part was being/wanting to be filed.

I've wondered that too. I've always imagined a magazine was having difficulty being loaded into the weapon, so he filed it to make it load smoother, though I'm not sure if that is a common practice among firearm owners.

Sarin Gas Attack wrote:

A theory I had stemming from this comment was that they tried to alter one of the 10-round magazines to have a higher capacity, and, in doing so, ruined it. But, I couldn't find anything in the evidence list that shows that they had any such magazine body or other parts (follower, spring, etc.). I suppose it's still possible, but seems like Eric would've kept something—he kept cut-off BB gun barrels, after all.

I think that is probably the best explanation there is. Perhaps Harris, seeing Klebold's higher capacity magazines that he got with the Tec-9, decided to attempt to modify one of his own to hold more, ruined it in the process, threw it out, and then scrapped the idea of modifying his magazines. Though it begs the question, how did he imagine he was going to extend the magazine itself? Welding metal on to fit the particular frame of the mag? Seems strange but honestly, I wouldn't be surprised.

As far as Harris' habit of leaving scraps behind, it's hard to tell what his motivation is behind that. Could be nothing more than he never got around to throwing some pieces out.

The biggest problem with the usual version of the outside attack is there is no reason to begin the attack. They could have tossed a pipe bomb at the propane tanks instead they started shooting.  They could have pulled the fire alarm themselves rather than wait on the bomb to do it. They could have opened fire in the crowded cafeteria, the timing being picked for that reason.. Instead they open fire outside with no bombs. Obviously, in my view, because Patti interrupted them. See Brees statement. Or anybody else in the library. Patti is how they learn an attack is going on, before Dylan descends the hill, not after. Patti wasn't just coincidentally shot the second she reached the door.

About the bullets - I know there are bullets and shotgun shells that hit walls or other objects and as a result were too badly fragmented or crushed to allow them to be identified with any gun.

To be clear: there was not one bullet that could have been identified with a gun other than the 4 firearms carried by E&D. If a round was in good enough shape to allow any identification, then it was traced to one of the 4 firearms.

I'm not sure if the diagram includes only the bullets that were identified, or also the fragmented/crushed/destroyed ones as well. If it is the former, then the 'missing' bullets are likely among the 'destroyed beyond identification' ones.


Another possibility is that some of the bullets fired inside the library missed their mark and flew out of the window towards W Polk Avenue.

cakeman wrote:

The biggest problem with the usual version of the outside attack is there is no reason to begin the attack. They could have tossed a pipe bomb at the propane tanks instead they started shooting.

I'm pretty sure that Eric knew that if the trigger mechanism has failed then it will not be as easy to set the bomb off by just throwing a pipe bomb at it and hoping it goes off at the first bang.

On the cafeteria footage you can see them shooting at the tanks, then throwing a pipe bomb and they never get a full explosion.


It is debatable how much Eric knew about the bomb, but I am confident that he understood that there is a big chance that a pipebomb would explode by the bombs without puncturing the tanks at all, or puncuring but not causing an explosion.
Then they would find themselves in the cafeteria confronted by hundreds of students about a "very dangerous prank", with teachers called in etc. That would really spoil the attack.


Having said all that, I do see a good question behind what you said. If the bombs did not explode, why did not Eric and Dylan just stroll in, try to fix the trigger mechanism, reset it and perhaps try again.. Or reset it to try to make it go off during the next brake. Or why didn't they just give up, take the bombs home, fix them there and try the next day?

I think we will never know for sure. The possible answer is that they already left the diaries and the tapes and the writings on the wlals for parents to find. Perhaps they felt they can't just take the bombs back and try tomorrow, because they felt the parents might have already discovered all the suicide material they left for them to find? That's my best guess.

They felt they already left the information in the open and that it is too big of a risk to try to go back and hope nobody found it yet.

cakeman wrote:

They could have opened fire in the crowded cafeteria, the timing being picked for that reason.

Great question. Why didn't they stand at the entrance to the cafeteria and start the shooting there? Obviously more targets there, the place so densely packed that each shot fired would probably hit more than one person.

Moreover, there was a point early on in the attack, after they already shot kids outside,when Dylan actually peaked into the cafeteria when there were still many kids inside. But he didn't shoot any of them, he went back to Eric.

Why didn't they begin the attack in the cafeteria?

I think we will never have 100% certainty here. But I feel like I have a good explanation: They were too scared to do so. They felt that their guns are too slow in reload and too unreliable to face such a huge mass of kids. They probably felt that they can shoot a dozen or so, but then a hundred more will charge them while they are reloading or when a gun jams.

I suspect Eric and Dylan feared being captured alive more than anything else. The cafeteria crowd was just too big for them to think they could handle it. The library was just the right size and the kids were already hiding under tables and apparently terrified. This made E&D comfortable with the idea of storming the library.

One wonders why the emphasis on Eric. I suspect Dylan was the bomb tech, but regardless it is odd

The bombs were just propane tanks with pipe bombs attached, straight out of Duke Nukem 3D. They would have made different bombs if they didnt believe a pipe bomb would rupture the tank. We literally watch them throw pipe bombs at the tanks thinking they will go off.  The timing mechanism failing would mean just toss a pipe bomb and problem solved in their minds. That's why they toss them into the cafeteria as soon as they enter. Those weren't just for fun.

But they should have tried that before shooting.

Their position was also to get the library fleeing into their guns from the fire alarm triggered by the first cafeteria bomb.

So like Westside, as a backup, they could have simply pulled the fire alarm. They enter the library once their pipe bombs get a fire alarm going, still hoping people will flee out the exit to stand up video game style.

And they could have opened fire where they planned for the most victims to be, ie in the cafeteria, had plans changed to giving up on the bombs and becoming only a shooting.

Instead they start shooting outside with no bombs and no fire alarm, obviously the inference is that they were interrupted after the first bomb failed. Patti is the obvious choice. Further corroborated by the library witnesses and Sarin Gas Attacks analysis of the phone call.  Bree says Dylan descends the hill after Patti came in. That alone puts Patti being shot at much earlier

Also makes sense of Rachel's murder. Not because of her faith or being Dylans halcyon girl or whatever. Because she sat next to the entrance Patti came out of to say "no".  Which isn't what you say after five minutes of massacre, like the usual story has it.

Jenny Matthews I think it was who was with Patti and Brian said Rachel and Richard were eating, alive. The corroboration is really from all angles  if you simply doubt Brian who was shot and trust everything else that says they weren't shooting before Patti interrupted.

Further it seems apparent to me the bombs were staggered, not both set for 11:17 and then given up on subsequently.

cakeman wrote:

One wonders why the emphasis on Eric. I suspect Dylan was the bomb tech, but regardless it is odd

Seeing his past history, I strongly suspect it was Eric.

Eric was the guy who was into explosives and co2 and firecrackers before. Eric was the guy who started fooling around with explosives in Blackjack Pizza in 1997, before Dylan even started working there in the first place in mid 1998.
He seems to have always been more into explosives than Dylan.

Addendum: Found the source
Eric brought a pipe bomb to Blackjack in April 1997. That is over a year before Dylan even started working there

cakeman wrote:

The bombs were just propane tanks with pipe bombs attached, straight out of Duke Nukem 3D. They would have made different bombs if they didnt believe a pipe bomb would rupture the tank. We literally watch them throw pipe bombs at the tanks thinking they will go off.  The timing mechanism failing would mean just toss a pipe bomb and problem solved in their minds.

I somehow doubt it. On the CCTV they first start firing guns at the bomb. Only after that fails do they start throwing pipe bombs at it, which to me looks more like a "last resort desperation" kind of thing.

cakeman wrote:

And they could have opened fire where they planned for the most victims to be, ie in the cafeteria

They could but didn't. I do not know for sure why, but as outlined above: My best guess is that they were just too scared to face such a large crowd, perhaps fearing being jumped during a jam or relaod.

cakeman wrote:

Further corroborated by the library witnesses and Sarin Gas Attacks analysis of the phone call.

Ok, I will confess to ignorance here. what do you mean by the sarin phone call? Did someone call 911 and say that tehre is a sarin atatck at the CHS instead of a shooting on 20/4 ?

cakeman wrote:

Bree says Dylan descends the hill after Patti came in. That alone puts Patti being shot at much earlier

Could be. But also, Bree can just be wrong or confused with the timeline. Eye witnessess getting things wrong on that day are dime a dozen. I read the reports, something like 20 people report seeing in CHS on that day a guy who was kicked out from CHS in 98 (spoiler alert: In reality on 4/20 he was working on a conjstruction site in a different city with an iron alibi, foreman and dozens of people were with him).
Plus there are people who reported seeing a shooter in a yellow T-shirt and another in a green shirt.

So my advice is: Consider all eye witness accounts, but never assume they are accurate or true.

cakeman wrote:

Also makes sense of Rachel's murder. Not because of her faith or being Dylans halcyon girl or whatever. Because she sat next to the entrance Patti came out of to say "no".  Which isn't what you say after five minutes of massacre, like the usual story has it.

Jenny Matthews I think it was who was with Patti and Brian said Rachel and Richard were eating, alive. The corroboration is really from all angles  if you simply doubt Brian who was shot and trust everything else that says they weren't shooting before Patti interrupted.

The whole story around Rachel has been very thoroughly manipulated by the parents and the media. Castaldo at first never mentioned any of this is the police interview. Only years later after the story was puffed up by the christian media, did Castaldo suddenly remember hearing E&D ask Rachel about god. Yeah right and he never remembered any of it in 99 when being interviewed by the police. Please. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]  

So the "god Q&A with Rachel" is a BS story. The real story is that both Rachel and Castaldo got shot before realizing what happened and didn't even know what hit them. Rachel died on the spot.

I made a post about it years ago, where I go over the timeline including the timestamp on the cafeteria CCTV when Dylan peeks in. There was just not enough time for them to walk up to Rachel and have a conversation.


EDIT: I found my posts about the timeline and the possibility of a "god Q&A with Rachel" Read my posts [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If you guys do not want to read my (rather lenghty) explanation of the timeline in that thread, here is a TLDNR summary of the conclusions:

1. There is no time for Dylan and Eric to have both jointly approach Rachel, ask her the god question and shoot her. We know that Dylan shoots, throws pipebombs and then runs to and back from the cafeteria. He simply has no time to also run to Rachel and back in this timeframe (4 minutes).
2. It is 'technically' possible for Eric to run up to her and have the "god talk" with Rachel alone, while Dylan is running to the cafeteria and back. He has roughly ~40 seconds to run up to her, have the talk, shoot her, run back to the exact place at teh top of the stairs where he was initially, only to get shot at by Gardiner.
So there's a technical possibility of him dong all that in this 40 second window of time... but I find it implausible. If he runs up to the enterance and talks with Rachel, why then would he run back to the exact same place at the top of the stairs? Why not go directly towards Dylan or not go into the school? Or wait for Dylan at the entrance near Rachel's body?

To me... I just do not see any sensible reason why Eric would do this "40 seconds long there-and-back-again mad dash" to Rachel.

3. Even if Eric would have done that, then it would not match Castaldo's story which has both shooters walk up to them, taunting ehr for SEVERAL MINUTES before shooting Rachel. Theres absolutely no time for that and no time for Dylan to be there at all. He doesn't even have that 40 second window that Eric has (because in that window we know that Dylan goes in the opposite direction from Rachel - to the cafeteria).

I can understand how a traumatized victim gets his time wrong and how 40 seconds could feel to him like several minutes. Bu confusing one guy for two guys when he has them point blank? Nah.

Conventional wisdom says Eric but I disagree. Dylan did missions with Zach before he did with Eric. When Eric logged pipe bombs, Dylan was over. He was the aspiring technician. He wore an homage to Duke Nukem 3D on his ear, and the bombs were out of Duke Nukem 3D. Also they failed, and he was the lazy one. For many reasons I submit the division of labor was Eric/DOOM/guns and Dylan/duke/bombs. Dylan had the better computer to handle the more modern game too.

So at least I think one shouldn't say "erics bombs" rather than "their bombs".

The user sarin gas attack on this forum uses visual evidence from the cctv and the other phone call by the other Nielsen to move Patti's phone call back to 11:23.

I independently came to the same conclusion. I don't think they are shooting until 11:21 , at Patti, after the first bomb failed at 11:20. I already outlined the reasons they would not have opened fire outside, with no bomb and no fire alarm, unless they were interrupted. See my post "suicide mission" for getting the timing of the bombs correct.

cakeman wrote:

Conventional wisdom says Eric but I disagree. Dylan did missions with Zach before he did with Eric. When Eric logged pipe bombs, Dylan was over. He was the aspiring technician. He wore an homage to Duke Nukem 3D on his ear, and the bombs were out of Duke Nukem 3D. Also they failed, and he was the lazy one. For many reasons I submit the division of labor was Eric/DOOM/guns and Dylan/duke/bombs. Dylan had the better computer to handle the more modern game too.

So at least I think one shouldn't say "erics bombs" rather than "their bombs".

I tend to see the bombs as 'Eric's baby', but I do so purely based on Eric's past history and his desire to be a demolition expert in the marines etc. Obviously they both worked on the duffel bombs.

The missions with Zach before Eric joined.... did any of them involve pipebombs or Co2 bombs? I do not remember off teh top of my head, but I thought the early missions were just toilet paper and firecrackers etc.

So it is only my educated guess that Eric was the 'bomb man' in that duo. There's no way to know for sure. Anyway, I doubt it will change much in the grand scheme of things.

cakeman wrote:

The user sarin gas attack on this forum uses visual evidence from the cctv and the other phone call by the other Nielsen to move Patti's phone call back to 11:23.

I was not very active for quite some time on the forums. Mind giving me a link to the thread in question?

cakeman wrote:

I independently came to the same conclusion. I don't think they are shooting until 11:21 , at Patti, after the first bomb failed at 11:20. I already outlined the reasons they would not have opened fire outside, with no bomb and no fire alarm, unless they were interrupted. See my post "suicide mission" for getting the timing of the bombs correct.

I think we have a lot of good material on the timeline of the early phase of the shooting, but it is disperesed over many threads and posts by many users. I think I'm gonna make a separaate thread just about the timeline.

Sabratha wrote:

I was not very active for quite some time on the forums. Mind giving me a link to the thread in question?

It's in regards to this post of mine that I made on Reddit. In it, I sync up the background noises and explosions that happen in Patti Nielson's call and Karen Nielson/Sue Caruthers' call, as well as the cafeteria CCTV footage. Based on the synchronized CCTV timestamps, Patti Nielson's call was initially placed at about 11:23:44 AM, and Eric yelled, "Get up," at 11:28:13 AM. Here's a video of the calls overlaid on the CCTV footage.

Sarin Gas Attack wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

I was not very active for quite some time on the forums. Mind giving me a link to the thread in question?

It's in regards to this post of mine that I made on Reddit. In it, I sync up the background noises and explosions that happen in Patti Nielson's call and Karen Nielson/Sue Caruthers' call, as well as the cafeteria CCTV footage. Based on the synchronized CCTV timestamps, Patti Nielson's call was initially placed at about 11:23:44 AM, and Eric yelled, "Get up," at 11:28:13 AM. Here's a video of the calls overlaid on the CCTV footage.

I looked at the video... first of all, there's two calls on top of one another, making it very confusing to uynderstand what's going on, especially in the beginning.

Secondly the bangs (shotgun fire in the corridor) seem to be entirely unrelated to the movement of the people on the CCTV footage, making me think the audio was not correctly synchronized.

Thirdly, the audio is so synchronized that when the CCTV timestamp is at 11:25:49, Nielsen says: "The gun is right outside the library door, okay? I don't think I'm going to go out there." So let's see how that squares with the other known facts:

We know Gardiner reported that he arrived at the parking lot at 11:23 and had a shootout with the gunmen. If he did, then it was at the far end of 11:23 (more like 11:24) and the shootout takes place between the 11:24 - 11:25 marks. Let's be very conservative when calculating the duration and assume the gunfight lasts only 40 seconds and ends at 11:24:50

So if the vimeo synchronization is correct, that will mean that within 1 minute (11:24:50 to 11:25:49) they completed the shootout with gardiner, reloaded, threw pipe bombs and co2 crickets in the lower corridor, shot Munson, went up, shot Sanders, reload, threw an explosive over the railing into the cafeteria, Klebold peeeked into the cafeteria again and they run all the way up to be at the library door? All in 60 seconds?  

That's entirely implausible imho. Too much stuff to do in too little time.

Remember: I was being very conservative with the Gardiner shootout timing here. A more sensible timing of the shootout would be that Gardiner starts shooting aroung the 11:24:15 mark and the shootout lasts  for over a minute till something like 11:25:30. Which will make the viemo synchronization even less plausible.

Lastly, the vimeo video is synchrozined such that a kid jumping away and a pipe bomb/co2 flash visible on the CCTV timestamp at 11:27:26 is synchronized with a bang on one of the calls and Nielsen saying "Oh God!". The problem is - that bang is VERY clearly a gun sound, not a pipe bomb.

So... sorry to be so critical, but the evidence does not stack up. The vimoe synchronization centers around assuming the shotgun bang from the Nielsen call is the same as what caused the flash on the CCTV at 11:27. That's imho the mistake that then throws the whole thing out of whack.


My interpretation:
1. The loud bang you hear on the Nielsen call when she says: "oh God!"? That's probably them firing a shotgun in the corridor by the library. That's why the sound is co clearly heard - it is just outside in the corridor.

2. The smoke and flash you see on the CCTV at 11:27:26 is from the gunmen throwing a pipe bomb or co2 cricket over the railing into the cafeteria. That is already after they shot Sanders.

Sabratha wrote:

I looked at the video... first of all, there's two calls on top of one another, making it very confusing to uynderstand what's going on, especially in the beginning.

Secondly the bangs (shotgun fire in the corridor) seem to be entirely unrelated to the movement of the people on the CCTV footage, making me think the audio was not correctly synchronized.

Thirdly, the audio is so synchronized that when the CCTV timestamp is at 11:25:49, Nielsen says: "The gun is right outside the library door, okay? I don't think I'm going to go out there." So let's see how that squares with the other known facts:

We know Gardiner reported that he arrived at the parking lot at 11:23 and had a shootout with the gunmen. If he did, then it was at the far end of 11:23 (more like 11:24) and the shootout takes place between the 11:24 - 11:25 marks. Let's be very conservative when calculating the duration and assume the gunfight lasts only 40 seconds and ends at 11:24:50

So if the vimeo synchronization is correct, that will mean that within 1 minute (11:24:50 to 11:25:49) they completed the shootout with gardiner, reloaded, threw pipe bombs and co2 crickets in the lower corridor, shot Munson, went up, shot Sanders, reload, threw an explosive over the railing into the cafeteria, Klebold peeeked into the cafeteria again and they run all the way up to be at the library door? All in 60 seconds?  

That's entirely implausible imho. Too much stuff to do in too little time.

Remember: I was being very conservative with the Gardiner shootout timing here. A more sensible timing of the shootout would be that Gardiner starts shooting aroung the 11:24:15 mark and the shootout lasts  for over a minute till something like 11:25:30. Which will make the viemo synchronization even less plausible.

Lastly, the vimeo video is synchrozined such that a kid jumping away and a pipe bomb/co2 flash visible on the CCTV timestamp at 11:27:26 is synchronized with a bang on one of the calls and Nielsen saying "Oh God!". The problem is - that bang is VERY clearly a gun sound, not a pipe bomb.

So... sorry to be so critical, but the evidence does not stack up. The vimoe synchronization centers around assuming the shotgun bang from the Nielsen call is the same as what caused the flash on the CCTV at 11:27. That's imho the mistake that then throws the whole thing out of whack.


My interpretation:
1. The loud bang you hear on the Nielsen call when she says: "oh God!"? That's probably them firing a shotgun in the corridor by the library. That's why the sound is co clearly heard - it is just outside in the corridor.

2. The smoke and flash you see on the CCTV at 11:27:26 is from the gunmen throwing a pipe bomb or co2 cricket over the railing into the cafeteria. That is already after they shot Sanders.

Apologies for the two calls on top of each other, but I did it because it allows one to hear what happens in both the library and cafeteria simultaneously.

How are you getting the 11:24-11:25AM times and some of your timeline? No explosives were thrown in the cafeteria until 11:27AM, and Dylan never peeked into the cafeteria after already entering the school. Also, Neil Gardner's reported times cannot be treated as 100% accurate because he was in a high-intensity situation. Based on casings, Eric only fired, at most, 8 rounds at Gardner from just outside the west entrance doors.

With the phone microphone, distinguishing between gunfire and explosives is extremely difficult. The synchronization does center around this, as timing with the CCTV because it can be heard in both 911 calls; both calls are synchronized from several points based on identical background noises.

At no other time can two loud noises be heard on both calls separated by 12 seconds—the same time as two flashes in the cafeteria, especially since the first of those in the cafeteria describe as someone "having been shot inside the cafeteria." I neglected to link it, but the first post I made goes into more detail on how the two calls were synchronized with each other; it's impossible to separate the two as having happened back-to-back.

Criticism makes for a more well-rounded explanation.

The philosophical method is to take logic as evidence. Bullet casings or whatever physical evdence is evidence.

But so is reasoning like this: it's a fact they thought their pipe bombs could blow up propane tanks. It's a fact they toss pipe bombs at the bomb  to detonate it only after shooting. Logical inference: they didnt change plans to shooting instead of bombing. Logical inference: something must have interrupted them to get them shooting *before tossing a pipe bomb*.

Add on top Fact: Patti caught them and went out to say " no"  Fact: the first target is the west entrance she came from. Inference from video: her call was before 11:25