13 victims or 15 victims?

In my opinion, 15 victims. I don't know if it's wrong to sympathize with people that are considered "bad", but whatever. And no, I'm not one of the people that wishes that the bombs would've gone off. I feel sorry for anyone that gets to the point where they want to kill as many people as possible. Because that doesn't happen overnight. And E/D probably weren't homicidal/suicidal their entire lives. It's a sad process of going from a happy normal kid to a hate-filled teenager. It's a long process of becoming homicial, building so much hatred and rage against the world that failed you. No sane, mentally stable person with an easy life would randomly decide to shoot up a school just for the heck of it. And NBK wasn't done "just for the heck of it". There are so many underlying causes and variables that no one will know exactly why. It's unfortunate that E/D didn't get help on time. All these years, everyone missed the warning signs. Eric and Dylan were just too smart.

I don't like seeing graphics with 13 victims because 15 people died and in my opinion they were all victims and should all be remembered. I don't think anyone should be left out.


Whatever else is relevant, the fact is that the H &K families were denied any presence in any memorial, they were discriminated against and denied basic caring and sympathy.People,including some victims families were pretty cruel to them and I will never think that was right or acceptable.If all this makes me a bad person,I can live with that.

PaintItBlack wrote:

You might think you would not care now but if you were actually  in that situation, you might find it hurtful at the time it was happening. Dylan's parents said they did.

No, I wouldn't care and would understand why the crosses were destroyed. That's just who I am.

sergeant hartman wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

You might think you would not care now but if you were actually  in that situation, you might find it hurtful at the time it was happening. Dylan's parents said they did.

No, I wouldn't care and would understand why the crosses were destroyed.  That's just who I am.

You wouldn't care if your very own child's cross and tree were destroyed?... No matter what, your child is your child.

PaintItBlack wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

You might think you would not care now but if you were actually  in that situation, you might find it hurtful at the time it was happening. Dylan's parents said they did.

No, I wouldn't care and would understand why the crosses were destroyed.  That's just who I am.

You wouldn't care if your very own child's cross and tree were destroyed?... No matter what, your child is your child.

No, because the cross is just an inanimate object and I have better things to worry about. I would appreciate the gesture by Zanis, but I would understand that my son's cross doesn't belong right next to the crosses of those he people he murdered.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I don't like seeing graphics with 13 victims because 15 people died and in my opinion they were all victims and should all be remembered. I don't think anyone should be left out.


Whatever else is relevant, the fact is that the H &K families were denied any presence in any memorial, they were discriminated against and denied basic caring and sympathy.People,including some victims families were pretty cruel to them and I will never think that was right or acceptable.If all this makes me a bad person,I can live with that.

It's not appropriate to place concrete memorials of them in the same lace as their victims. These families are not comfortable with their child's killer being memorialized in the same place. This is not cruel and certainly not discrimination. It's not all about catering to the Harris and Klebold families, chapel hill and the clement park ring are for the innocent victims who did not have a choice.

A graphic is a different thing. Saying "RIP all fifteen" is a different thing. Ringing a church bell fifteen times is a different thing. This year on the tumblr tag (I always read every post on April 20th), I saw one graphic with thirteen faces. One. There are some graphics that have fifteen faces. You can also make your own graphics. Heck, you can even make your own little memorial to the 15 people who died in your backyard.

But when a public memorial is made by the columbine community /families/survivor, whether or not the killers are included should be their call. That by no means they don't sympathize with Eric and Dylan and their families. It's funny how people always say "the killers families lost children too ad the victims families don't let them grieve" yet they tell the families of the victims how to grieve, god forbid they don't want their child's killer's face next to their child's memorial. There's no right way to grieve. Each family grieves differently.

Now before anyone accuses me of not, I do sympathize with the H&K families. I get it. They lost children too. I've heard so a million times. But people need to look from the victims families points of view too, which is the side that isn't looked at on the internet. Not the other way around. Of course no one has to justify destroying the crosses or filing a lawsuit, just understand why it was done from their point of view. And they deserve to have their own projects like 13 families without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan.

Why don't THEIR feelings matter as much as the H&K families just because their child was NOT a perpetrator?

This is one reason why I hope I never lose a loved one to mass murder, because if I feel the need to file a lawsuit for something I'm going to be labeled as this huge asshole for the rest of my life just for acting like the loved one of a murderer and wanting justice for my loved one. If I act upon human nature and struggle with forgiveness fifteen years later I'll be labeled as an asshole for the rest of my life.

Aaaah sorry guys. My blood is boiling. I should take a walk around the block.

Perhaps this is just the point of view of someone that is not American but... can someone please explain to me how filing a lawsuit helps grieving families?

I'm sorry but if I were to lose a child or loved one at the hands of another I sure as hell wouldn't be suing anyone. Attempting to change policies... yes. But asking for money... No.

Parents of murdered children (even children lost in accidents- hell, adults too) file lawsuits all the time. The same reasons why anyone files lawsuits for anything. It's easy to say what you would do or would not do if you lost a child to murder (or manslaughter). If the murder was preventable and you felt someone in particular was responsible, would you let it slide before exploring the issue?

Ofcourse not. But I wouldn't file a lawsuit. A lawsuit is as useful as a receipt for propane in determining why these kids killed.

The thing is I feel like this is a much more complex issue than most people realize. And asking for money doesn't solve anything. If answers is what they wanted a lawsuit may only serve to keep parents quiet.

In my eyes this is something that started when Eric and Dylan were kids. To say that an intervention would have stopped this is being naïve. It's not understanding the depth of the issue. It's not being conscious of just how badly they wanted this.

I feel like Eric and Dylan were victims of a culture that favors everything that they maybe were not. And in turn they victimized others. It's not right. But it's what happened.

Some parents also sued Jeffco. I'm pretty sure the parents were looking for answers, not money. Not every lawsuit is about money. If I remember correctly, the parents wanted to know why they ignored threats filed by the Browns against Eric and why it took so long for the police to enter Columbine and why the library was the last place they went. They filed against Eric and Dylan's parents probably because they wanted to know if Columbine could have been prevented. I don't think anyone has the right to judge the victims parents on why they sued unless they have been in their shoes before.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I don't like seeing graphics with 13 victims because 15 people died and in my opinion they were all victims and should all be remembered. I don't think anyone should be left out.


Whatever else is relevant, the fact is that the H &K families were denied any presence in any memorial, they were discriminated against and denied basic caring and sympathy.People,including some victims families were pretty cruel to them and I will never think that was right or acceptable.If all this makes me a bad person,I can live with that.

It's not appropriate to place concrete memorials of them in the same lace as their victims. These families are not comfortable with their child's killer being memorialized in the same place. This is not cruel and certainly not discrimination. It's not all about catering to the Harris and Klebold families, chapel hill and the clement park ring are for the innocent victims who did not have a choice.

A graphic is a different thing. Saying "RIP all fifteen" is a different thing. Ringing a church bell fifteen times is a different thing. This year on the tumblr tag (I always read every post on April 20th), I saw one graphic with thirteen faces. One. There are some graphics that have fifteen faces. You can also make your own graphics. Heck, you can even make your own little memorial to the 15 people who died in your backyard.

But when a public memorial is made by the columbine community /families/survivor, whether or not the killers are included should be their call. That by no means they don't sympathize with Eric and Dylan and their families. It's funny how people always say "the killers families lost children too ad the victims families don't let them grieve" yet they tell the families of the victims how to grieve, god forbid they don't want their child's killer's face next to their child's memorial. There's no right way to grieve. Each family grieves differently.

Its not about "catering" to the H &K families. Its about the fact that these two families were denied the sympathy, respect and inclusion the other families were given. And no matter how unpopular this opinion is,I do think it was cruel and discriminatory they were left out of the memorial.They could have had something their acknowledging their pain and loss.The community and several victims families made it very plain they have no sympathy for the H &K family's.Most agree its perfectly acceptable for these two families to be treated this way.I do not and I stand by my words.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

Now before anyone accuses me of not, I do sympathize with the H&K families. I get it. They lost children too. I've heard so a million times. But people need to look from the victims families points of view too, which is the side that isn't looked at on the internet. Not the other way around. Of course no one has to justify destroying the crosses or filing a lawsuit, just understand why it was done from their point of view. And they deserve to have their own projects like 13 families without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan.

Why don't THEIR feelings matter as much as the H&K families just because their child was NOT a perpetrator?

This is one reason why I hope I never lose a loved one to mass murder, because if I feel the need to file a lawsuit for something I'm going to be labeled as this huge asshole for the rest of my life just for acting like the loved one of a murderer and wanting justice for my loved one. If I act upon human nature and struggle with forgiveness fifteen years later I'll be labeled as an asshole for the rest of my life.

Aaaah sorry guys. My blood is boiling. I should take a walk around the block.

Everybody ALWAYS looks at from the side of the victim's familys and their side only.But God Forbid, you look at it from the other victims in this situation whom some people refuse to even fully acknowledge or understand as victims in the first place.The general attitude is tough shit if the H &K families were hurt or upset about the crosses being destroyed or being sued in lawsuits that dragged on for over 5 yrs or not being included in the memorials or all the hate directed at them.Its like they have no right to any feelings about any of that. The H &K families didn't have anything to do with what happened.So I don't feel that suing them was justice, but some form or revenge.

iceflames wrote:

Some parents also sued Jeffco. I'm pretty sure the parents were looking for answers, not money. Not every lawsuit is about money. If I remember correctly, the parents wanted to know why they ignored threats filed by the Browns against Eric and why it took so long for the police to enter Columbine and why the library was the last place they went. They filed against Eric and Dylan's parents probably because they wanted to know if Columbine could have been prevented. I don't think anyone has the right to judge the victims parents on why they sued unless they have been in their shoes before.

Then nobody has the right to judge E &D's families for anything they have done or did not do because they haven't been in their shoes then right? Isn't that fair to say?

You need to get your facts straight then, many of the families have expressed sympathy/acknowledging their pain and loss of the H&K families. I'd be more than happy to provide examples if you want. Some have nicer attitudes than others (the Bernalls are definitely not the kindest). The victims' families are not stealing H&K's ashes from their parents homes' or telling them they can't grieve or cry over their lost child. But I'll stand by my own words and say that it's not cruel or discriminatory to the H&K families to not want crosses for Eric and Dylan at  a public memorial.

These families are entitled to their children's memorial that they are comfortable with just as the H&K families are entitled to mourn their children and choose to keep or scatter their ashes. Clement park and Chapel Hill memorials are, however, for the INNOCENT victims. Eric and Dylan may have died, but they are not victims in the same sense as the people they killed and the people they killed need their own separate place of remembrance without Eric and Dylan overshadowing them. What's cruel is for people on the internet to tell the families of the victims or anyone else personally affected by Columbine how to memorialize their child and to shame them for not seeing their child's killer the same way as someone on the internet who is interested in H&K- they're the people who took their loved ones' lives for F's sake. It's justifiable that they don't want the killers' faces in the same spot as the other 13 in a public memorial.

FYI: You can find it inappropriate for them to be memorialized in the same space as your loved one and still acknowledge that they were people, feel for their families, and forgive.

And you're also wrong that most agree about it being acceptable to "treat them this way" (whatever you mean by that), as everyone who is educated on the topic of Columbine sympathizes with the H&K families. I hope you recall the picture of two crosses by a tree away from the makeshift memorials to the innocent victims with a poster that says "their families grieve too". That's the way I personally believe it should be done- the killers having their own, different kinds of concrete memorials in a different spot- for those who are comfortable memorializing them to go to. no one should feel forced to memorialize them.

And to reiterate what iceflames said, nobody, NOBODY, has the right to judge the victims' families for wanting answers. They're entitled to answers as to what could have prevented the massacre and if home life had a role in it. Now that we have more answers, anyone who still blames the H&K families does in fact need to lay off. But not everyone judges the H&K families that way. Don't add salt to the wounds of the victims' families by minimizing their grief by comparing it to the grief of the H&K families.

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

Now before anyone accuses me of not, I do sympathize with the H&K families. I get it. They lost children too. I've heard so a million times. But people need to look from the victims families points of view too, which is the side that isn't looked at on the internet. Not the other way around. Of course no one has to justify destroying the crosses or filing a lawsuit, just understand why it was done from their point of view. And they deserve to have their own projects like 13 families without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan.

Why don't THEIR feelings matter as much as the H&K families just because their child was NOT a perpetrator?

This is one reason why I hope I never lose a loved one to mass murder, because if I feel the need to file a lawsuit for something I'm going to be labeled as this huge asshole for the rest of my life just for acting like the loved one of a murderer and wanting justice for my loved one. If I act upon human nature and struggle with forgiveness fifteen years later I'll be labeled as an asshole for the rest of my life.

Aaaah sorry guys. My blood is boiling. I should take a walk around the block.

Everybody ALWAYS looks at from the side of the victim's familys and their side only.But God Forbid, you look at it from the  other victims in this situation whom some people refuse to even fully acknowledge or understand as victims in the first place.The general attitude is tough shit if the H &K families were hurt or upset about the crosses being destroyed or being sued in lawsuits that dragged on for over 5 yrs  or not being included in the memorials or all the hate directed at them.Its like they have no right to any feelings about any of that.  The H &K families didn't  have anything to do with what happened.So I don't feel that suing them was justice, but some form or revenge.

Wrong again. Most people, If you're been on the internet, look at it from the H&K families sides. The sides of the victims' families is the side that is judged and demonized. If the H&K families were not allowed to have feelings, Susan would not have had her essay published in O magazine. They might not have had anything to do with what happened, but before we had more answers, we did not know what their role was in the massacre if any at all. That's the reality of law. And revenge and money aren't always motives for filing lawsuits, you know.

Need I remind everyone of the writing on Eric and Dylan's crosses?  "Hate breeds hate."  "Jesus will forgive."  "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." ""I'm sorry we failed you. May God have mercy on your soul."  The killers got enough sympathy.

There was a melting pot of emotions. Some people forgave right away. Others were full of anger who wrote hateful things on the crosses. But it definitely wasn't all hatred and bitterness. Most of the anger and hatred that was aimed at Eric an Dylan themselves, not their families. That said, they do get their fair share of sympathy and remembrance they deserve as human beings.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

You need to get your facts straight then, many of the families have expressed sympathy/acknowledging their pain and loss of the H&K families. I'd be more than happy to provide examples if you want. Some have nicer attitudes than others (the Bernalls are definitely not the kindest). The victims' families are not stealing H&K's ashes from their parents homes' or telling them they can't grieve or cry over their lost child. But I'll stand by my own words and say that it's not cruel or discriminatory to the H&K families to not want crosses for Eric and Dylan at  a public memorial.

These families are entitled to their children's memorial that they are comfortable with just as the H&K families are entitled to mourn their children and choose to keep or scatter their ashes. Clement park and Chapel Hill memorials are, however, for the INNOCENT victims. Eric and Dylan may have died, but they are not victims in the same sense as the people they killed and the people they killed need their own separate place of remembrance without Eric and Dylan overshadowing them. What's cruel is for people on the internet to tell the families of the victims or anyone else personally affected by Columbine how to memorialize their child and to shame them for not seeing their child's killer the same way as someone on the internet who is interested in H&K- they're the people who took their loved ones' lives for F's sake. It's justifiable that they don't want the killers' faces in the same spot as the other 13 in a public memorial.

FYI: You can find it inappropriate for them to be memorialized in the same space as your loved one and still acknowledge that they were people, feel for their families, and forgive.

And you're also wrong that most agree about it being acceptable to "treat them this way" (whatever you mean by that), as everyone who is educated on the topic of Columbine sympathizes with the H&K families. I hope you recall the picture of two crosses by a tree away from the makeshift memorials to the innocent victims with a poster that says "their families grieve too". That's the way I personally believe it should be done- the killers having their own, different kinds of concrete memorials in a different spot- for those who are comfortable memorializing them to go to. no one should feel forced to memorialize them.

And to reiterate what iceflames said, nobody, NOBODY, has the right to judge the victims' families for wanting answers. They're entitled to answers as to what could have prevented the massacre and if home life had a role in it. Now that we have more answers, anyone who still blames the H&K families does in fact need to lay off. But not everyone judges the H&K families that way. Don't add salt to the wounds of the victims' families by minimizing their grief by comparing it to the grief of the H&K families.

I think you need  to get your facts straight. Brian Rohborough called both sets of parents"evil" and "wicked".It was him and the Petrones and Kyle's parents  who chopped down the trees with a loud crowd  who came along  with them holding up signs like "Murders burn in Hell." and "No rest for the wicked" and shouting "Praise Jesus" over and over again ! Don Fleming called Dylan's parents "disgusting" . Michael Shoels said he had absolutely no sympathy for the H & K parents.The Bernalls said they were neglectful parents and so on and so on.I still say it was cruel and discriminatory  towards their families to leave any acknowledgment of their loss and pain of the memorial.Nobody is going to change that opinion.I could say that anybody who doesn't want  the two families to have had their grief, loss and pain acknowledged just like every other families was is being cruel.That can go both ways.

Then NOBODY has the right to judge the H &K families on anything they ever said  or did either before or after the shooting but I notice that doesn't stop people from doing it. I'm not minimizing anyone's grief. I'd say that its you who are minimizing the H &K's  grief by acting like it and their loss  ,pain and grief is so much less than and doesn't matter like the other families do.

sergeant hartman wrote:

Need I remind everyone of the writing on Eric and Dylan's crosses?  "Hate breeds hate."  "Jesus will forgive."  "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing."  ""I'm sorry we failed you. May God have mercy on your soul."  The killers got enough sympathy.

I also remember them being spit on repeatedly and nasty things being written on them like "burn IN hell" and "Evil bastard" and a girl being shoved down the muddy hill because she tried to stop somebody from writing something cruel.Then I remember them being destroyed.There was more hate than anything else.

PaintItBlack wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

Need I remind everyone of the writing on Eric and Dylan's crosses?  "Hate breeds hate."  "Jesus will forgive."  "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing."  ""I'm sorry we failed you. May God have mercy on your soul."  The killers got enough sympathy.

I also remember them being spit on repeatedly and nasty things being written on them like "burn IN hell" and "Evil bastard" and a girl being shoved down the muddy hill because she tried to stop somebody from writing something cruel.Then I remember them being destroyed.There was more hate than anything else.

Confirmation bias much? I pointed out that there were also negative messages written already. Except you're choosing to demonize the community.

If the Harrises and Klebolds were in the victim's family's shoes, then they would have done the same thing.

Just got done reading an article where Tom Klebold says that most people have been goodhearted to them.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

Now before anyone accuses me of not, I do sympathize with the H&K families. I get it. They lost children too. I've heard so a million times. But people need to look from the victims families points of view too, which is the side that isn't looked at on the internet. Not the other way around. Of course no one has to justify destroying the crosses or filing a lawsuit, just understand why it was done from their point of view. And they deserve to have their own projects like 13 families without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan.

Why don't THEIR feelings matter as much as the H&K families just because their child was NOT a perpetrator?

This is one reason why I hope I never lose a loved one to mass murder, because if I feel the need to file a lawsuit for something I'm going to be labeled as this huge asshole for the rest of my life just for acting like the loved one of a murderer and wanting justice for my loved one. If I act upon human nature and struggle with forgiveness fifteen years later I'll be labeled as an asshole for the rest of my life.

Aaaah sorry guys. My blood is boiling. I should take a walk around the block.

Everybody ALWAYS looks at from the side of the victim's familys and their side only.But God Forbid, you look at it from the  other victims in this situation whom some people refuse to even fully acknowledge or understand as victims in the first place.The general attitude is tough shit if the H &K families were hurt or upset about the crosses being destroyed or being sued in lawsuits that dragged on for over 5 yrs  or not being included in the memorials or all the hate directed at them.Its like they have no right to any feelings about any of that.  The H &K families didn't  have anything to do with what happened.So I don't feel that suing them was justice, but some form or revenge.

Wrong again. Most people, If you're been on the internet, look at it from the H&K families sides. The sides of the victims' families is the side that is judged and demonized. If the H&K families were not allowed to have feelings, Susan would not have had her essay published in O magazine. They might not have had anything to do with what happened, but before we had more answers, we did not know what their role was in the massacre if any at all. That's the reality of law. And revenge and money aren't always motives for filing lawsuits, you know.

I don't agree .Its the victims families' that get most of the sympathy, everybody always looks at it from their point of view, hardly ever the point of view of E &D's family's. Most People don't give a shit about them or how they felt. If only I had a dollar for everything I heard somebody say "I'll save my sympathy for the REAL  victims" meaning the other families...Maybe Eric and Dylan's parents would have been a lot more willing to talk  and give answers sooner if they hadn't had lawsuits folding in so quickly from so many people. I'm sure they were under tremendous strain for a long time from that alone, not knowing what might happen with that. To this day, apparently the two sets of parents are only willing to meet with the families that didn't sue them and I can't say I blame them. I'm sure they are afraid if they didn't somebody might use something they said against them and  find a way to sue them again. And that is a legitimate fear in my opinion. I  know that their legal counsel urged them not to talk for their own protection and that was sound advice. It's a great thing to have sympathy for all involved who lost someone or was injured. I don't even mind if someone has more sympathy for the other families over E &D but I do mind someone getting on my case because I have more sympathy for the H &K  families, feel it was wrong to be sued and left out of everything and all the other cruelty that came their way. I have every right to feel that way just as others have the right to feel differently.

sergeant hartman wrote:

Just got done reading an article where Tom Klebold says that most people have been goodhearted to them.

He also called the ones who chopped down the trees and crosses a "lynch mob" Which is considered an offensive opinion here.

sergeant hartman wrote:

If the Harrises and Klebolds were in the victim's family's shoes, then they would have done the same thing.

If the victim's families had been in the H &K's shoes they'd have probably done the same thing they did and they'd have been pleading for some kind of understanding just like the H &K families.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

Need I remind everyone of the writing on Eric and Dylan's crosses?  "Hate breeds hate."  "Jesus will forgive."  "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing."  ""I'm sorry we failed you. May God have mercy on your soul."  The killers got enough sympathy.

I also remember them being spit on repeatedly and nasty things being written on them like "burn IN hell" and "Evil bastard" and a girl being shoved down the muddy hill because she tried to stop somebody from writing something cruel.Then I remember them being destroyed.There was more hate than anything else.

Confirmation bias much? I pointed out that there were also negative messages written already. Except you're choosing to demonize the community.

I demonize the community because of its actions and attitudes both before and after the shooting.It's not just one thing.It's many things.I can only imagine how I'd have fared with those people if I had been unlikely enough to go to school there.

You wouldn't have staged a massacre because you aren't as evil as Eric and Dylan.

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

You need to get your facts straight then, many of the families have expressed sympathy/acknowledging their pain and loss of the H&K families. I'd be more than happy to provide examples if you want. Some have nicer attitudes than others (the Bernalls are definitely not the kindest). The victims' families are not stealing H&K's ashes from their parents homes' or telling them they can't grieve or cry over their lost child. But I'll stand by my own words and say that it's not cruel or discriminatory to the H&K families to not want crosses for Eric and Dylan at  a public memorial.

These families are entitled to their children's memorial that they are comfortable with just as the H&K families are entitled to mourn their children and choose to keep or scatter their ashes. Clement park and Chapel Hill memorials are, however, for the INNOCENT victims. Eric and Dylan may have died, but they are not victims in the same sense as the people they killed and the people they killed need their own separate place of remembrance without Eric and Dylan overshadowing them. What's cruel is for people on the internet to tell the families of the victims or anyone else personally affected by Columbine how to memorialize their child and to shame them for not seeing their child's killer the same way as someone on the internet who is interested in H&K- they're the people who took their loved ones' lives for F's sake. It's justifiable that they don't want the killers' faces in the same spot as the other 13 in a public memorial.

FYI: You can find it inappropriate for them to be memorialized in the same space as your loved one and still acknowledge that they were people, feel for their families, and forgive.

And you're also wrong that most agree about it being acceptable to "treat them this way" (whatever you mean by that), as everyone who is educated on the topic of Columbine sympathizes with the H&K families. I hope you recall the picture of two crosses by a tree away from the makeshift memorials to the innocent victims with a poster that says "their families grieve too". That's the way I personally believe it should be done- the killers having their own, different kinds of concrete memorials in a different spot- for those who are comfortable memorializing them to go to. no one should feel forced to memorialize them.

And to reiterate what iceflames said, nobody, NOBODY, has the right to judge the victims' families for wanting answers. They're entitled to answers as to what could have prevented the massacre and if home life had a role in it. Now that we have more answers, anyone who still blames the H&K families does in fact need to lay off. But not everyone judges the H&K families that way. Don't add salt to the wounds of the victims' families by minimizing their grief by comparing it to the grief of the H&K families.

I think you need  to get your facts straight. Brian Rohborough called both sets of parents"evil" and "wicked".It was him and the Petrones and Kyle's parents  who chopped down the trees with a loud crowd  who came along  with them holding up signs like "Murders burn in Hell." and "No rest for the wicked" and shouting "Praise Jesus" over and over again ! Don Fleming called Dylan's parents "disgusting" . Michael Shoels said he had absolutely no sympathy for the H & K parents.The Bernalls said they were neglectful parents and so on and so on.I still say it was cruel and discriminatory  towards their families to leave any acknowledgment of their loss and pain of the memorial.Nobody is going to change that opinion.I could say that anybody who doesn't want  the two families to have had their grief, loss and pain acknowledged just like every other families was is being cruel.That can go both ways.

Then NOBODY has the right to judge the H &K families on anything they ever said  or did either before or after the shooting but I notice that doesn't stop people from doing it. I'm not minimizing anyone's grief. I'd say that its you who are minimizing the H &K's  grief by acting like it and their loss  ,pain and grief is so much less than and doesn't matter like the other families do.

Nope, I ain't trying to minimize their grief. I love how you're accusing me of doing so. If someone on the internet says "omg they were bad parents", I'm going to correct them and tell them they're wrong. I never once said or thought anything judgmental about the H&K families. I find Susan Klebold to be a very inspirational woman. Good try though. Speaking of Susan, if you read her essay, she talks about meeting some of the victims' families and feeling "blessed" about it. What I am trying to do is open up some closed minds like yours who refuse to see it through both points of view. H&K families get a lot of sympathy on the internet and attempts to understand them. I'm giving some other families, who also did not choose to be in their situation, a turn. The columbine community and families get quite the shitting on themselves, and I'm not going to let slide biased comments like yours.

Please give me sources for all of those comments made by parents, because and I've heard otherwise from those same people. H&K have had their pain acknowledged time and again but you seem awfully hung up on focusing on the bad things they have said and vilifying them for whatever reason. Funny you mention Brian, he said in a 2009 video that said he "always felt sympathy for the parents. they too lost a precious baby", in a youtube video called "a mothers pain", the same video where the Bernalls criticize Susan's essay. Funny you mention Don, if you've been to acolumbinesite and read Kelly's entry, he said the week of the shooting "I'll be praying for the parents of the killers. They'll have a tougher time getting over this than we are." If you watched 13 families (a 2011 documentary made for the families of the victims that was to focus on the victims without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan), you'll hear Sue Petrone say she "doesn't have the energy" to be angry. Darrell Scott has always made comments expressing sympathy for the families. Dave's daughter says Eric and Dylan are victims too. Really, the only mean comment made in the documentary about H&K is by Lauren's stepfather.

You act as if the columbine families as a whole are out to ruin the H&K families lives and don't want them to cry over their loss or something. That is simply not the case. Not having crosses for Eric and Dylan at memorials does not mean there is no sympathy from the community towards them and their families.

sergeant hartman wrote:

You wouldn't have staged a massacre because you aren't as evil as Eric and Dylan.

I don't think they were evil, or if they were a lot of other people in that school were too.Just different levels of it.You don't know anything about me or my past.

PaintItBlack wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

You wouldn't have staged a massacre because you aren't as evil as Eric and Dylan.

I don't think they were evil, or if they were a lot of other people in that school were too.Just different levels of it.You don't know anything about me or my past.

Then who is more evil, Eric and Dylan or bullies?

gutenfxckintag wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

You need to get your facts straight then, many of the families have expressed sympathy/acknowledging their pain and loss of the H&K families. I'd be more than happy to provide examples if you want. Some have nicer attitudes than others (the Bernalls are definitely not the kindest). The victims' families are not stealing H&K's ashes from their parents homes' or telling them they can't grieve or cry over their lost child. But I'll stand by my own words and say that it's not cruel or discriminatory to the H&K families to not want crosses for Eric and Dylan at  a public memorial.

These families are entitled to their children's memorial that they are comfortable with just as the H&K families are entitled to mourn their children and choose to keep or scatter their ashes. Clement park and Chapel Hill memorials are, however, for the INNOCENT victims. Eric and Dylan may have died, but they are not victims in the same sense as the people they killed and the people they killed need their own separate place of remembrance without Eric and Dylan overshadowing them. What's cruel is for people on the internet to tell the families of the victims or anyone else personally affected by Columbine how to memorialize their child and to shame them for not seeing their child's killer the same way as someone on the internet who is interested in H&K- they're the people who took their loved ones' lives for F's sake. It's justifiable that they don't want the killers' faces in the same spot as the other 13 in a public memorial.

FYI: You can find it inappropriate for them to be memorialized in the same space as your loved one and still acknowledge that they were people, feel for their families, and forgive.

And you're also wrong that most agree about it being acceptable to "treat them this way" (whatever you mean by that), as everyone who is educated on the topic of Columbine sympathizes with the H&K families. I hope you recall the picture of two crosses by a tree away from the makeshift memorials to the innocent victims with a poster that says "their families grieve too". That's the way I personally believe it should be done- the killers having their own, different kinds of concrete memorials in a different spot- for those who are comfortable memorializing them to go to. no one should feel forced to memorialize them.

And to reiterate what iceflames said, nobody, NOBODY, has the right to judge the victims' families for wanting answers. They're entitled to answers as to what could have prevented the massacre and if home life had a role in it. Now that we have more answers, anyone who still blames the H&K families does in fact need to lay off. But not everyone judges the H&K families that way. Don't add salt to the wounds of the victims' families by minimizing their grief by comparing it to the grief of the H&K families.

I think you need  to get your facts straight. Brian Rohborough called both sets of parents"evil" and "wicked".It was him and the Petrones and Kyle's parents  who chopped down the trees with a loud crowd  who came along  with them holding up signs like "Murders burn in Hell." and "No rest for the wicked" and shouting "Praise Jesus" over and over again ! Don Fleming called Dylan's parents "disgusting" . Michael Shoels said he had absolutely no sympathy for the H & K parents.The Bernalls said they were neglectful parents and so on and so on.I still say it was cruel and discriminatory  towards their families to leave any acknowledgment of their loss and pain of the memorial.Nobody is going to change that opinion.I could say that anybody who doesn't want  the two families to have had their grief, loss and pain acknowledged just like every other families was is being cruel.That can go both ways.

Then NOBODY has the right to judge the H &K families on anything they ever said  or did either before or after the shooting but I notice that doesn't stop people from doing it. I'm not minimizing anyone's grief. I'd say that its you who are minimizing the H &K's  grief by acting like it and their loss  ,pain and grief is so much less than and doesn't matter like the other families do.

Nope, I ain't trying to minimize their grief. I love how you're accusing me of doing so. If someone on the internet says "omg they were bad parents", I'm going to correct them and tell them they're wrong. I never once said or thought anything judgmental about the H&K families. I find Susan Klebold to be a very inspirational woman. Good try though. Speaking of Susan, if you read her essay, she talks about meeting some of the victims' families and feeling "blessed" about it. What I am trying to do is open up some closed minds like yours who refuse to see it through both points of view. H&K families get a lot of sympathy on the internet and attempts to understand them. I'm giving some other families, who also did not choose to be in their situation, a turn. The columbine community and families get quite the shitting on themselves, and I'm not going to let slide biased comments like yours.

Please give me sources for all of those comments made by parents, because and I've heard otherwise from those same people.  H&K have had their pain acknowledged time and again but you seem awfully hung up on focusing on the bad things they have said and vilifying them for whatever reason. Funny you mention Brian, he said in a 2009 video that said he "always felt sympathy for the parents. they too lost a precious baby", in a youtube video called "a mothers pain", the same video where the Bernalls criticize Susan's essay. Funny you mention Don, if you've been to acolumbinesite and read Kelly's entry, he said the week of the shooting "I'll be praying for the parents of the killers. They'll have a tougher time getting over this than we are." If you watched 13 families (a 2011 documentary made for the families of the victims that was to focus on the victims without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan), you'll hear Sue Petrone say she "doesn't have the energy" to be angry. Darrell Scott has always made comments expressing sympathy for the families. Dave's daughter says Eric and Dylan are victims too. Really, the only mean comment made in the documentary about H&K is by Lauren's stepfather.

You act as if the columbine families as a whole are out to ruin the H&K families lives and don't want them to cry over their loss or something. That is simply not the case. Not having crosses for Eric and Dylan at memorials does not mean there is no sympathy from the community towards them and their families.

I don't have a closed mind.I can and do see both sides.I just hold a belief on this that you don't like or agree with.That's ok.I'm sure you wouldn't like a lot of my other beliefs either.I don't see anything wrong in my beliefs or think I've done or said anything wrong.I am speaking the truth as I see it and believe it,just like you are.I've expressed my sympathy and empathy for the other families' too.My sympathy and empathy for what they have lost and went through is genuine. You aren't going to change my mind in thinking that already grieving, suffering people didn't need to be dealing with years of lawsuits and left out of a memorial in which they had had the same loss and an even worse time of it.Think I'm a bad person for that all you like,if you wish.If I am a bad person because of my beliefs, then let it be so.I apologize for intimating you were being cruel, even though feel that about me.We see things ,probably most everything, entirely different.Nobody is going to change anyone's minds and this is heading towards a potentially nasty argument so I'm going to bow out now.

Those comments by the victim's families' are all out there.I'm sure you can find them if you wish to look.I certainly didn't make them up.

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

Now before anyone accuses me of not, I do sympathize with the H&K families. I get it. They lost children too. I've heard so a million times. But people need to look from the victims families points of view too, which is the side that isn't looked at on the internet. Not the other way around. Of course no one has to justify destroying the crosses or filing a lawsuit, just understand why it was done from their point of view. And they deserve to have their own projects like 13 families without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan.

Why don't THEIR feelings matter as much as the H&K families just because their child was NOT a perpetrator?

This is one reason why I hope I never lose a loved one to mass murder, because if I feel the need to file a lawsuit for something I'm going to be labeled as this huge asshole for the rest of my life just for acting like the loved one of a murderer and wanting justice for my loved one. If I act upon human nature and struggle with forgiveness fifteen years later I'll be labeled as an asshole for the rest of my life.

Aaaah sorry guys. My blood is boiling. I should take a walk around the block.

Everybody ALWAYS looks at from the side of the victim's familys and their side only.But God Forbid, you look at it from the  other victims in this situation whom some people refuse to even fully acknowledge or understand as victims in the first place.The general attitude is tough shit if the H &K families were hurt or upset about the crosses being destroyed or being sued in lawsuits that dragged on for over 5 yrs  or not being included in the memorials or all the hate directed at them.Its like they have no right to any feelings about any of that.  The H &K families didn't  have anything to do with what happened.So I don't feel that suing them was justice, but some form or revenge.

Wrong again. Most people, If you're been on the internet, look at it from the H&K families sides. The sides of the victims' families is the side that is judged and demonized. If the H&K families were not allowed to have feelings, Susan would not have had her essay published in O magazine. They might not have had anything to do with what happened, but before we had more answers, we did not know what their role was in the massacre if any at all. That's the reality of law. And revenge and money aren't always motives for filing lawsuits, you know.

I don't agree .Its the victims families' that get most of the sympathy, everybody always looks at it from their point of view, hardly ever the point of view of E &D's family's. Most People don't give a shit about them or how they felt. If only I had a dollar for everything I heard somebody say "I'll save my sympathy for the REAL  victims" meaning the other families...Maybe Eric and Dylan's parents would have been a lot more willing to talk  and give answers sooner if they hadn't had lawsuits folding in so quickly from so many people. I'm sure they were under tremendous strain for a long time from that alone, not knowing what might happen with that. To this day, apparently the two sets of parents are only willing to meet with the families that didn't sue them and I can't say I blame them. I'm sure they are afraid if they didn't somebody might use something they said against them and  find a way to sue them again. And that is a legitimate fear in my opinion. I  know that their legal counsel urged them not to talk for their own protection and that was sound advice. It's a great thing to have sympathy for all involved who lost someone or was injured. I don't even mind if someone has more sympathy for the other families over E &D but I do mind someone getting on my case because I have more sympathy for the H &K  families, feel it was wrong to be sued and left out of everything and all the other cruelty that came their way. I have every right to feel that way just as others have the right to feel differently.

It's not a matter of agreement. Go to the tumblr tag, where everyone looks from Eric/Dylan/Their families points of view. The tag has people who are unhealthily overprotective of Eric and Dylan.. and their families. Like I said, people educated on and interested in the topic of Columbine have sympathy for the H&K families. And you act like the columbine families' feelings about Eric/Dylan/their families haven't changed over the course of 15 years wtf lol. While we're at it, visit Tom Mauser's youtube channel and go through the comment archives.
Susan did get criticism from the Bernalls about her 2009 essay, but don't be ridiculous, no one sued her for it. I can't blame the H&K families for meeting with select families either. But I also don't blame people families for suing anyone. Families of loved ones who are lost in tragedy go apeshit over legal stuff all. the. time. There was the possibility that the H&K families had some kind of role in the massacre. People are entitled to answers as to whether or not that was the truth. I'm sorry for the H&K families that they had to deal with the legal stuff and wrongful accusations that they didn't ask for, but try separating your emotions from reality and realize that this is how the legal system works.

If you were driving with your significant other in the front seat at three in the morning after partying and you crashed and they died, you'd probably be grieving too, but would you blame your SO's family for suing you?

sergeant hartman wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

You wouldn't have staged a massacre because you aren't as evil as Eric and Dylan.

I don't think they were evil, or if they were a lot of other people in that school were too.Just different levels of it.You don't know anything about me or my past.

Then who is more evil, Eric and Dylan or bullies?

I guess E &D were more evil on the actual day but until then the bullies.What is humiliating and ostracizing someone for the own pleasure you get out of it but evil?

The kids in my school,most of them, were plenty evil actingand enjoyed inflicting different kinds of pain on a daily basis.I've seen it firsthand.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

Now before anyone accuses me of not, I do sympathize with the H&K families. I get it. They lost children too. I've heard so a million times. But people need to look from the victims families points of view too, which is the side that isn't looked at on the internet. Not the other way around. Of course no one has to justify destroying the crosses or filing a lawsuit, just understand why it was done from their point of view. And they deserve to have their own projects like 13 families without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan.

Why don't THEIR feelings matter as much as the H&K families just because their child was NOT a perpetrator?

This is one reason why I hope I never lose a loved one to mass murder, because if I feel the need to file a lawsuit for something I'm going to be labeled as this huge asshole for the rest of my life just for acting like the loved one of a murderer and wanting justice for my loved one. If I act upon human nature and struggle with forgiveness fifteen years later I'll be labeled as an asshole for the rest of my life.

Aaaah sorry guys. My blood is boiling. I should take a walk around the block.

Everybody ALWAYS looks at from the side of the victim's familys and their side only.But God Forbid, you look at it from the  other victims in this situation whom some people refuse to even fully acknowledge or understand as victims in the first place.The general attitude is tough shit if the H &K families were hurt or upset about the crosses being destroyed or being sued in lawsuits that dragged on for over 5 yrs  or not being included in the memorials or all the hate directed at them.Its like they have no right to any feelings about any of that.  The H &K families didn't  have anything to do with what happened.So I don't feel that suing them was justice, but some form or revenge.

Wrong again. Most people, If you're been on the internet, look at it from the H&K families sides. The sides of the victims' families is the side that is judged and demonized. If the H&K families were not allowed to have feelings, Susan would not have had her essay published in O magazine. They might not have had anything to do with what happened, but before we had more answers, we did not know what their role was in the massacre if any at all. That's the reality of law. And revenge and money aren't always motives for filing lawsuits, you know.

I don't agree .Its the victims families' that get most of the sympathy, everybody always looks at it from their point of view, hardly ever the point of view of E &D's family's. Most People don't give a shit about them or how they felt. If only I had a dollar for everything I heard somebody say "I'll save my sympathy for the REAL  victims" meaning the other families...Maybe Eric and Dylan's parents would have been a lot more willing to talk  and give answers sooner if they hadn't had lawsuits folding in so quickly from so many people. I'm sure they were under tremendous strain for a long time from that alone, not knowing what might happen with that. To this day, apparently the two sets of parents are only willing to meet with the families that didn't sue them and I can't say I blame them. I'm sure they are afraid if they didn't somebody might use something they said against them and  find a way to sue them again. And that is a legitimate fear in my opinion. I  know that their legal counsel urged them not to talk for their own protection and that was sound advice. It's a great thing to have sympathy for all involved who lost someone or was injured. I don't even mind if someone has more sympathy for the other families over E &D but I do mind someone getting on my case because I have more sympathy for the H &K  families, feel it was wrong to be sued and left out of everything and all the other cruelty that came their way. I have every right to feel that way just as others have the right to feel differently.

It's not a matter of agreement. Go to the tumblr tag, where everyone looks from Eric/Dylan/Their families points of view. The tag has people who are unhealthily overprotective of Eric and Dylan.. and their families. Like I said, people educated on and interested in the topic of Columbine have sympathy for the H&K families. And you act like the columbine families' feelings about Eric/Dylan/their families haven't changed over the course of 15 years wtf lol. While we're at it, visit Tom Mauser's youtube channel and go through the comment archives.
Susan did get criticism from the Bernalls about her 2009 essay, but don't be ridiculous, no one sued her for it. I can't blame the H&K families for meeting with select families either. But I also don't blame people families for suing anyone. Families of loved ones who are lost in tragedy go apeshit over legal stuff all. the. time. There was the possibility that the H&K families had some kind of role in the massacre. People are entitled to answers as to whether or not that was the truth. I'm sorry for the H&K families that they had to deal with the legal stuff and wrongful accusations that they didn't ask for, but try separating your emotions from reality and realize that this is how the legal system works.

If you were driving with your significant other in the front seat at three in the morning after partying and you crashed and they died, you'd probably be grieving too, but would you blame your SO's family for suing you?

It's your opinion that they are unhealthily protective. Its all a matter of opinion in the end.I wouldn't blame them for suing me and only me, but I would blame them for suing my family even if I had been underage.It wasn't my family that would have gotten behind the wheel and caused the crash.My family wouldn't have done anything wrong.

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

You need to get your facts straight then, many of the families have expressed sympathy/acknowledging their pain and loss of the H&K families. I'd be more than happy to provide examples if you want. Some have nicer attitudes than others (the Bernalls are definitely not the kindest). The victims' families are not stealing H&K's ashes from their parents homes' or telling them they can't grieve or cry over their lost child. But I'll stand by my own words and say that it's not cruel or discriminatory to the H&K families to not want crosses for Eric and Dylan at  a public memorial.

These families are entitled to their children's memorial that they are comfortable with just as the H&K families are entitled to mourn their children and choose to keep or scatter their ashes. Clement park and Chapel Hill memorials are, however, for the INNOCENT victims. Eric and Dylan may have died, but they are not victims in the same sense as the people they killed and the people they killed need their own separate place of remembrance without Eric and Dylan overshadowing them. What's cruel is for people on the internet to tell the families of the victims or anyone else personally affected by Columbine how to memorialize their child and to shame them for not seeing their child's killer the same way as someone on the internet who is interested in H&K- they're the people who took their loved ones' lives for F's sake. It's justifiable that they don't want the killers' faces in the same spot as the other 13 in a public memorial.

FYI: You can find it inappropriate for them to be memorialized in the same space as your loved one and still acknowledge that they were people, feel for their families, and forgive.

And you're also wrong that most agree about it being acceptable to "treat them this way" (whatever you mean by that), as everyone who is educated on the topic of Columbine sympathizes with the H&K families. I hope you recall the picture of two crosses by a tree away from the makeshift memorials to the innocent victims with a poster that says "their families grieve too". That's the way I personally believe it should be done- the killers having their own, different kinds of concrete memorials in a different spot- for those who are comfortable memorializing them to go to. no one should feel forced to memorialize them.

And to reiterate what iceflames said, nobody, NOBODY, has the right to judge the victims' families for wanting answers. They're entitled to answers as to what could have prevented the massacre and if home life had a role in it. Now that we have more answers, anyone who still blames the H&K families does in fact need to lay off. But not everyone judges the H&K families that way. Don't add salt to the wounds of the victims' families by minimizing their grief by comparing it to the grief of the H&K families.

I think you need  to get your facts straight. Brian Rohborough called both sets of parents"evil" and "wicked".It was him and the Petrones and Kyle's parents  who chopped down the trees with a loud crowd  who came along  with them holding up signs like "Murders burn in Hell." and "No rest for the wicked" and shouting "Praise Jesus" over and over again ! Don Fleming called Dylan's parents "disgusting" . Michael Shoels said he had absolutely no sympathy for the H & K parents.The Bernalls said they were neglectful parents and so on and so on.I still say it was cruel and discriminatory  towards their families to leave any acknowledgment of their loss and pain of the memorial.Nobody is going to change that opinion.I could say that anybody who doesn't want  the two families to have had their grief, loss and pain acknowledged just like every other families was is being cruel.That can go both ways.

Then NOBODY has the right to judge the H &K families on anything they ever said  or did either before or after the shooting but I notice that doesn't stop people from doing it. I'm not minimizing anyone's grief. I'd say that its you who are minimizing the H &K's  grief by acting like it and their loss  ,pain and grief is so much less than and doesn't matter like the other families do.

Nope, I ain't trying to minimize their grief. I love how you're accusing me of doing so. If someone on the internet says "omg they were bad parents", I'm going to correct them and tell them they're wrong. I never once said or thought anything judgmental about the H&K families. I find Susan Klebold to be a very inspirational woman. Good try though. Speaking of Susan, if you read her essay, she talks about meeting some of the victims' families and feeling "blessed" about it. What I am trying to do is open up some closed minds like yours who refuse to see it through both points of view. H&K families get a lot of sympathy on the internet and attempts to understand them. I'm giving some other families, who also did not choose to be in their situation, a turn. The columbine community and families get quite the shitting on themselves, and I'm not going to let slide biased comments like yours.

Please give me sources for all of those comments made by parents, because and I've heard otherwise from those same people.  H&K have had their pain acknowledged time and again but you seem awfully hung up on focusing on the bad things they have said and vilifying them for whatever reason. Funny you mention Brian, he said in a 2009 video that said he "always felt sympathy for the parents. they too lost a precious baby", in a youtube video called "a mothers pain", the same video where the Bernalls criticize Susan's essay. Funny you mention Don, if you've been to acolumbinesite and read Kelly's entry, he said the week of the shooting "I'll be praying for the parents of the killers. They'll have a tougher time getting over this than we are." If you watched 13 families (a 2011 documentary made for the families of the victims that was to focus on the victims without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan), you'll hear Sue Petrone say she "doesn't have the energy" to be angry. Darrell Scott has always made comments expressing sympathy for the families. Dave's daughter says Eric and Dylan are victims too. Really, the only mean comment made in the documentary about H&K is by Lauren's stepfather.

You act as if the columbine families as a whole are out to ruin the H&K families lives and don't want them to cry over their loss or something. That is simply not the case. Not having crosses for Eric and Dylan at memorials does not mean there is no sympathy from the community towards them and their families.

I don't have a closed mind.I  can and  do see both sides.I just hold a belief on this that you don't like or agree with.That's ok.I'm sure you wouldn't  like a lot of my other beliefs either.I don't see anything wrong in my beliefs or think I've done or said anything wrong.I am speaking the truth as I see it and believe it,just like you are.I've  expressed my sympathy and empathy for the other families' too.My sympathy and empathy for what they have lost and went through is  genuine. You aren't going to change my mind in thinking that already grieving, suffering people didn't need to be dealing with years of lawsuits and  left out of a memorial in  which they had had the same loss and an even worse time of it.Think I'm a bad person for that all you like,if you wish.If I am a bad person because of my beliefs, then let it be so.I apologize for intimating you were being cruel, even though feel that about me.We see things  ,probably most everything, entirely different.Nobody is going to change anyone's minds and this is heading towards a potentially nasty argument so I'm going to bow out now.

Those comments by the victim's families' are all out there.I'm sure you can find them if you wish to look.I certainly didn't make them up.

(Edited)
I don't think you're a bad person. I just think you're being closed minded, biased, and making uncalled for judgments towards the families of the victims (I realize H&K families have gotten a lot of that but the victims families do get a lot of that). Those judgments don't help the H&K families in the slightest. And If you create a thread about Brad Bernall being critical and getting defensive about H&K families when someone says "well, I can't judge [Brad]" with "well, you can't judge the Harrises and Kelbolds"(which people shouldn't), I'll think you have it out for them. But like I said, I don't think you're a bad person, just in the wrong about our topic of discussion.

PaintItBlack wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

You wouldn't have staged a massacre because you aren't as evil as Eric and Dylan.

I don't think they were evil, or if they were a lot of other people in that school were too.Just different levels of it.You don't know anything about me or my past.

Then who is more evil, Eric and Dylan or bullies?

I guess E &D were more evil on the actual day but until then the bullies.What is humiliating and ostracizing someone for the own pleasure you get out of it but evil?

The kids in my school,most of them, were plenty evil  actingand enjoyed inflicting different kinds of pain on a daily basis.I've seen it firsthand.

So the majority of people in general are bullies?

gutenfxckintag wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

You need to get your facts straight then, many of the families have expressed sympathy/acknowledging their pain and loss of the H&K families. I'd be more than happy to provide examples if you want. Some have nicer attitudes than others (the Bernalls are definitely not the kindest). The victims' families are not stealing H&K's ashes from their parents homes' or telling them they can't grieve or cry over their lost child. But I'll stand by my own words and say that it's not cruel or discriminatory to the H&K families to not want crosses for Eric and Dylan at  a public memorial.

These families are entitled to their children's memorial that they are comfortable with just as the H&K families are entitled to mourn their children and choose to keep or scatter their ashes. Clement park and Chapel Hill memorials are, however, for the INNOCENT victims. Eric and Dylan may have died, but they are not victims in the same sense as the people they killed and the people they killed need their own separate place of remembrance without Eric and Dylan overshadowing them. What's cruel is for people on the internet to tell the families of the victims or anyone else personally affected by Columbine how to memorialize their child and to shame them for not seeing their child's killer the same way as someone on the internet who is interested in H&K- they're the people who took their loved ones' lives for F's sake. It's justifiable that they don't want the killers' faces in the same spot as the other 13 in a public memorial.

FYI: You can find it inappropriate for them to be memorialized in the same space as your loved one and still acknowledge that they were people, feel for their families, and forgive.

And you're also wrong that most agree about it being acceptable to "treat them this way" (whatever you mean by that), as everyone who is educated on the topic of Columbine sympathizes with the H&K families. I hope you recall the picture of two crosses by a tree away from the makeshift memorials to the innocent victims with a poster that says "their families grieve too". That's the way I personally believe it should be done- the killers having their own, different kinds of concrete memorials in a different spot- for those who are comfortable memorializing them to go to. no one should feel forced to memorialize them.

And to reiterate what iceflames said, nobody, NOBODY, has the right to judge the victims' families for wanting answers. They're entitled to answers as to what could have prevented the massacre and if home life had a role in it. Now that we have more answers, anyone who still blames the H&K families does in fact need to lay off. But not everyone judges the H&K families that way. Don't add salt to the wounds of the victims' families by minimizing their grief by comparing it to the grief of the H&K families.

I think you need  to get your facts straight. Brian Rohborough called both sets of parents"evil" and "wicked".It was him and the Petrones and Kyle's parents  who chopped down the trees with a loud crowd  who came along  with them holding up signs like "Murders burn in Hell." and "No rest for the wicked" and shouting "Praise Jesus" over and over again ! Don Fleming called Dylan's parents "disgusting" . Michael Shoels said he had absolutely no sympathy for the H & K parents.The Bernalls said they were neglectful parents and so on and so on.I still say it was cruel and discriminatory  towards their families to leave any acknowledgment of their loss and pain of the memorial.Nobody is going to change that opinion.I could say that anybody who doesn't want  the two families to have had their grief, loss and pain acknowledged just like every other families was is being cruel.That can go both ways.

Then NOBODY has the right to judge the H &K families on anything they ever said  or did either before or after the shooting but I notice that doesn't stop people from doing it. I'm not minimizing anyone's grief. I'd say that its you who are minimizing the H &K's  grief by acting like it and their loss  ,pain and grief is so much less than and doesn't matter like the other families do.

Nope, I ain't trying to minimize their grief. I love how you're accusing me of doing so. If someone on the internet says "omg they were bad parents", I'm going to correct them and tell them they're wrong. I never once said or thought anything judgmental about the H&K families. I find Susan Klebold to be a very inspirational woman. Good try though. Speaking of Susan, if you read her essay, she talks about meeting some of the victims' families and feeling "blessed" about it. What I am trying to do is open up some closed minds like yours who refuse to see it through both points of view. H&K families get a lot of sympathy on the internet and attempts to understand them. I'm giving some other families, who also did not choose to be in their situation, a turn. The columbine community and families get quite the shitting on themselves, and I'm not going to let slide biased comments like yours.

Please give me sources for all of those comments made by parents, because and I've heard otherwise from those same people.  H&K have had their pain acknowledged time and again but you seem awfully hung up on focusing on the bad things they have said and vilifying them for whatever reason. Funny you mention Brian, he said in a 2009 video that said he "always felt sympathy for the parents. they too lost a precious baby", in a youtube video called "a mothers pain", the same video where the Bernalls criticize Susan's essay. Funny you mention Don, if you've been to acolumbinesite and read Kelly's entry, he said the week of the shooting "I'll be praying for the parents of the killers. They'll have a tougher time getting over this than we are." If you watched 13 families (a 2011 documentary made for the families of the victims that was to focus on the victims without being overshadowed by Eric and Dylan), you'll hear Sue Petrone say she "doesn't have the energy" to be angry. Darrell Scott has always made comments expressing sympathy for the families. Dave's daughter says Eric and Dylan are victims too. Really, the only mean comment made in the documentary about H&K is by Lauren's stepfather.

You act as if the columbine families as a whole are out to ruin the H&K families lives and don't want them to cry over their loss or something. That is simply not the case. Not having crosses for Eric and Dylan at memorials does not mean there is no sympathy from the community towards them and their families.

I don't have a closed mind.I  can and  do see both sides.I just hold a belief on this that you don't like or agree with.That's ok.I'm sure you wouldn't  like a lot of my other beliefs either.I don't see anything wrong in my beliefs or think I've done or said anything wrong.I am speaking the truth as I see it and believe it,just like you are.I've  expressed my sympathy and empathy for the other families' too.My sympathy and empathy for what they have lost and went through is  genuine. You aren't going to change my mind in thinking that already grieving, suffering people didn't need to be dealing with years of lawsuits and  left out of a memorial in  which they had had the same loss and an even worse time of it.Think I'm a bad person for that all you like,if you wish.If I am a bad person because of my beliefs, then let it be so.I apologize for intimating you were being cruel, even though feel that about me.We see things  ,probably most everything, entirely different.Nobody is going to change anyone's minds and this is heading towards a potentially nasty argument so I'm going to bow out now.

Those comments by the victim's families' are all out there.I'm sure you can find them if you wish to look.I certainly didn't make them up.

I don't think you're a bad person. I just think you're being closed minded, biased, and making uncalled for judgments towards the families of the victims (I realize H&K families have gotten a lot of that but the victims families do get a lot of that). Those judgments don't help the H&K families in the slightest. And If you create a thread about Brad Bernall being critical and getting defensive about H&K families when someone says "well, I can't judge [Brad]" with "well, you can't judge the Harrises and Kelbolds"(which people shouldn't). But like I said, I don't think you're a bad person, just in the wrong about our topic of discussion.

I don't agree with a lot of the things said or done by the victim's families.I don't see anything wrong in saying I disagree or don't think these things were right and that they were hurtful towards the H &K families. I may be biased but so is everyone else.Everyone tends to be biased towards what they believe and everyone has biases.If we each hadn't thought the other was wrong, there would have been no disagreement.

sergeant hartman wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

You wouldn't have staged a massacre because you aren't as evil as Eric and Dylan.

I don't think they were evil, or if they were a lot of other people in that school were too.Just different levels of it.You don't know anything about me or my past.

Then who is more evil, Eric and Dylan or bullies?

I guess E &D were more evil on the actual day but until then the bullies.What is humiliating and ostracizing someone for the own pleasure you get out of it but evil?

The kids in my school,most of them, were plenty evil  actingand enjoyed inflicting different kinds of pain on a daily basis.I've seen it firsthand.

So the majority of people in general are bullies?

I don't know about in every single school , but they were in mine.However, bullying seems to be a widespread problem that never seems to improve much.That makes me wonder.You don't have to be actively bullying someone to be a bully.If you laugh at what's happening or egg it on, you are just as guilty.

But I've never bullied anyone, never egged anyone on, was made fun of for being shy, and never killed anyone. Why do you love Eric and Dylan but not me?

I relate to them and sympathize with what they went through and , many of the things they likely thought and felt.I understand why they did what they did even though I can't condone it and wish it had never happened.I know what its like to find yourself on that kind of an edge, to feel that kind of hate and rage,how all that feels.I've been where they were in my past.I'm just grateful that due to circumstances I never acted on it when I was in HS.I could have been them really easily.A lot of people will never understand all that.

If the victims parents still have some hate, why does that bother you? Like gutenfxckintag said about 13 Families, lauren townsend's stepfather is the only one who said something bad about E&D parents and it wasn't *that* bad. He something along the lines of feeling that the Harris's have some responsibility. He didn't say they were bad parents. Even if I don't agree, he has every right to feel that way. You have every right to feel more sympathy for E&D's parents but that doesn't mean you have.to criticize the other families for grieving in their own way.

I agree with your comment overall iceflames but I think what bothers PaintItBlack is that the H&K families are misunderstood and that they have already been through hell and back and that a comment like Bruce's would hurt their feelings even more if they heard it.

sergeant hartman wrote:

But I've never bullied anyone, never egged anyone on, was made fun of for being shy, and never killed anyone.  Why do you love Eric and Dylan but not me?

Stop mocking other members.

I'm not mocking anyone. I'm questioning why someone would place Eric and Dylan at the same level as someone who went through the same ordeal but didn't carry out a massacre. Shouldn't literally any bullied kid (besides those who also killed) be placed above them?

We're not talking about just light bullying. And I don't think people place them at the same level. To be perfectly honest most people don't understand the impact of peer victimization. I've been there so I do. Getting to the point of killing someone NO but I understand the position they were put in. Luckily I changed schools. But it's not an easy thing and I don't feel like you can say one person is more of a victim than another.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I'm not mocking anyone.  I'm questioning why someone would place Eric and Dylan at the same level as someone who went through the same ordeal but didn't carry out a massacre.  Shouldn't literally any bullied kid (besides those who also killed) be placed above them?

You asked her why she "loved" them but didn't love you. I don't recall her ever saying she "loved" them and I can't help but think you are trying to take a jab at her for being a "fan". Arguing your point is fine but you don't need to mock other members and make them feel uncomfortable by making comments like that. Just because someone sympathizes with Dylan and Eric more than the other victims doesn't mean they "love" them. And remember, everyone is entitled their own opinions.

If she did say she loved them, then I apologize.

Alright,

I just wanted to add something else. The fact is we will never truly know what made Eric and Dylan do what they did. However, denying that their experiences had a part in how they became killers, frankly, is naive.

I don't put anyone above anyone else when it comes to peer victimization (bullying). The fact is, not everyone lives the same life when they are bullied. Some have poor relationships with parents and some have a longer history of being victimized. Some are more emotional and some are less emotional. You simply cannot compare Eric and Dylan to others who were bullied.

I think the question should be: what made them cross that line? what do they share with other school shooters? what is it about Littleton, CO which would have contributed to this?

I recently met with a friend who stated that her husband had met a couple from Littleton during his Masters in IT and they both (as people who would have been considered weird in Littleton) stated that it was a HORRIBLE place to live. Now, as to WHY it happened. I think it was a culmination of a lot of different things. And, you can't just blame it on Columbine.

I personally have been trying to come to terms with my experiences in school and I can tell you it goes back to kindergarten. And in many ways I have to reserve a little place in my heart for those who have suffered emotionally as I did. As for Dylan and Eric - I can't extract them from that little corner of my heart because of the consequences of whatever it was that they felt. To me you don't just write off someone as being a bad seed when, clearly, society had a hand in creating that monster. I think that the desire to do so says a lot about how society works today.

If you are constantly treated in a heartless manor you will eventually become heartless. When people don't care about you, you will eventually stop caring about people. To me, this is just an extreme form.

iceflames wrote:

If the victims parents still have some hate, why does that bother you? Like gutenfxckintag said about 13 Families, lauren townsend's stepfather is the only one who said something bad about E&D parents and it wasn't *that* bad. He something along the lines of feeling that the Harris's have some responsibility. He didn't say they were bad parents. Even if I don't agree, he has every right to feel that way. You have every right to feel more sympathy for E&D's parents but that doesn't mean you have.to criticize the other families for grieving in their own way.

Because I believe the H &K families' are good people and at least tried their best to be decent parents and nothing that happened was their fault .They have suffered even more than these other families and had it even worse and I don't believe they deserved to have to deal with all these other hurtful things on top of all that.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

I agree with your comment overall iceflames but I think what bothers PaintItBlack is that the H&K families are misunderstood and that they have already been through hell and back and that a comment like Bruce's would hurt their feelings even more if they heard it.

That's the jist of it.