13 victims or 15 victims?

midema wrote:

Alright,

I just wanted to add something else. The fact is we will never truly know what made Eric and Dylan do what they did. However, denying that their experiences had a part in how they became killers, frankly, is naive.

I don't put anyone above anyone else when it comes to peer victimization (bullying). The fact is, not everyone lives the same life when they are bullied. Some have poor relationships with parents and some have a longer history of being victimized. Some are more emotional and some are less emotional. You simply cannot compare Eric and Dylan to others who were bullied.

I think the question should be: what made them cross that line? what do they share with other school shooters? what is it about Littleton, CO which would have contributed to this?

I recently met with a friend who stated that her husband had met a couple from Littleton during his Masters in IT and they both (as people who would have been considered weird in Littleton) stated that it was a HORRIBLE place to live. Now, as to WHY it happened. I think it was a culmination of a lot of different things. And, you can't just blame it on Columbine.

I personally have been trying to come to terms with my experiences in school and I can tell you it goes back to kindergarten. And in many ways I have to reserve a little place in my heart for those who have suffered emotionally as I did. As for Dylan and Eric - I can't extract them from that little corner of my heart because of the consequences of whatever it was that they felt. To me you don't just write off someone as being a bad seed when, clearly, society had a hand in creating that monster. I think that the desire to do so says a lot about how society works today.

If you are constantly treated in a heartless manor you will eventually become heartless. When people don't care about you, you will eventually stop caring about people. To me, this is just an extreme form.

Thank you Midema.I have the feeling that you may have gotten it close to the same level I did.Most people who haven't will never, ever understand.That's just the way of it.

Jenn wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

I'm not mocking anyone.  I'm questioning why someone would place Eric and Dylan at the same level as someone who went through the same ordeal but didn't carry out a massacre.  Shouldn't literally any bullied kid (besides those who also killed) be placed above them?

You asked her why she "loved" them but didn't love you. I don't recall her ever saying she "loved" them and I can't help but think you are trying to take a jab at her for being a "fan". Arguing your point is fine but you don't need to mock other members and make them feel uncomfortable by making comments like that. Just because someone sympathizes with Dylan and Eric more than the other victims doesn't mean they "love" them. And remember, everyone is entitled their own opinions.

If she did say she loved them, then I apologize.

I did say that Jen but thank you.I am aware that Sargent doesn't think much of people like me or other fans.I very much appreciate you keeping such a close eye out for any potential mistreatment on here.That means a lot.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I'm not mocking anyone.  I'm questioning why someone would place Eric and Dylan at the same level as someone who went through the same ordeal but didn't carry out a massacre.  Shouldn't literally any bullied kid (besides those who also killed) be placed above them?

Not to me.To me, the fact they actually went through this and died at 17 and 18 and others died so young puts their suffering above mine.They must have been suffering incredibly and went over the edge to do this in spite of everything and die themselves .E &D have been a tremendous help and comfort to me since I was very young.There are times in the last several years that I felt I wouldn't have made it through without them.I'm far from being the only kid who they have helped and who has found in them a source of emotional comfort and strength.Judge me if you like.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I am aware that Sargent doesn't think much of people like me

False.

Quote :

or other fans.

I think the comments from some of them on Mr. Mauser's Youtube page are enough for me to not care for them.

Some of the comments have been unprovoked and it was cruel.But some of the supporters of the Mausers are as rabid as any fan.I've seen them start trouble before by trashing talking fans when they weren't saying anything.Then of course the fans came over and retaliated. Some of those people followed me around from video to video and harassed me for two weeks and I wasn't saying anything about the victims.That's far from the only time I've been harassed just for being a sympathizer either.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Some of the comments  have been unprovoked and it was cruel.

Yes.

What about what these people did to me and other sympathizers when it was unprovoked?

PaintItBlack wrote:

What about what these people did to me and other sympathizers when it was unprovoked?

They're assholes or just stupid. Probably both.

Depends on what you mean by "unprovoked" and "sympathizer". Obviously being a researcher who tries to understand (as opposed to excuse) Eric and Dylan is different than being someone who says on Tom's tribute to Daniel: "your son was gay and ugly/ he was a bully who deserves to die/ rip Eric and Dylan the heroes glad they killed this nerdy bully".

sergeant hartman wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I am aware that Sargent doesn't think much of people like me

False.

Quote :

or other fans.

I think their comments on Mr. Mauser's Youtube page are enough for me to not care for them.

I've been considered a fan. In fact, according to someone I won't mention by name, I was the "2nd biggest fan" on RPG because I made a memorial video for Dylan and Eric, created a poem titled "Fifteen" and stated that I think all 15 were victims. I have never said anything bad about the other 13 victims. I have never said I "love" Dylan or Eric. I have never attacked any of the family members of any of the surviving victims. And when I left a comment on Mr. Mauser's Youtube video that he made addressing the fans I actually asked some of the fans why they were bullying this man who lost his child. I asked them why they were turning into what Dylan and Eric hated most in this world. Didn't Dylan and Eric supposedly hate bullies and if so, why would their "fans" want to be exactly like what they hated.

So, how can you say you don't care for any of the fans and basically insinuate that we are all the same? That was exactly the kind of mindset the people on RPG had. They attacked, made fun of or mocked anyone who even mentioned having sympathy for Dylan and Eric (while a lot of the time they were closet fans themselves). I don't like seeing it here. And regardless of what you may think, we are not all like the worst of the fans who go around thinking we are tough because we are bullying a man who lost his child and we don't all make meme's saying "Eric is God" and I do not think that we should all be viewed as being the same. That is what it feels like you are doing to me.

Let me edit my post.

Jenn, I think the 'them' sergeant hartman is referring to are the people who are more "fanboy/girl-ish", rather than just someone who is interested in the massacre and relates to them. The ones who cross the line by disrespecting the victims (saying they and the survivors deserved what they got) and pestering their families (sending that facebook message to Sue Petrone), condoning the massacre (wishing the bombs went off so Eric and Dylan could feel successful in their placing of the bags in the cafeteria).
"Columbiners" obviously aren't all the same and you're right, it's not fair to generalize them as being on that level. I don't think that was sergeant's intention.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

Jenn, I think the 'them' sergeant hartman is referring to are the people who are more "fanboy/girl-ish", rather than just someone who is interested in the massacre and relates to them. The ones who cross the line by disrespecting the victims (saying they and the survivors deserved what they got) and pestering their families (sending that facebook message to Sue Petrone), condoning the massacre (wishing the bombs went off so Eric and Dylan could feel successful in their placing of the bags in the cafeteria).
"Columbiners" obviously aren't all the same and you're right, it's not fair to generalize them as being on that level. I don't think that was sergeant's intention.

I honestly agree with you, gutenfxckintag.

Everyone just needs to think out their posts, or double check them before hitting "send", and this is in reference to everyone, not just the people in this thread.

Also, this applies "in reverse" as well, meaning:

I suggest that people should re-read others' posts more often than they do, to be certain they understand what has been stated instead of skimming and half-reading and running with this half baked idea about what they just skimmed/half-read, which happens more than most would like to admit.

And if there is any confusion or misunderstandings, in my opinion, they need to be addressed by asking questions instead of making assumptions and running with them.

This forum has had more than enough of that.

I am not the person who sent the fb message to Sue Petrone but I do remember it.The person's intent was not to harass her.The person was horrified at the destroying of the crosses and trees and saw it as a direct slap in the face to the H & K families and they did not like or agree with that so they expressed their disagreement.Think what you want of that but the intent was not to harass.


I have talked to many other fans or sympathizers over the years and you wouldn't believe what they were put through by the people in their schools.One girl , who is very critical of the victims and devoted to E &D had a 16 yr old brother who killed himself with a shot gun and left a note saying it was because of the bullying he was going through at school.She found the body so she is very bitter.
They see the victims as being just like the ones who oppressed them for so long.Feel free to judge them, but often there is more going on there than "Oh, those are just awful people."

So many of the people w on the old forum were just total______________! I was harassed by some of those people badly.There was once a whole thread on there posting things I had said from another site and making fun of me, calling me names and talking about how stupid and worthless I was and I wasn't saying anything about the victims and I wasn't on that board and I had done nothing to those people. It got very nasty and went on anout a week.I was harassed on You Tube by Ms.Dollhouse Pink, Mary and CRS 1988 and one of Ms.Dollhouses good 14 year old friends although I can't remember her user name now.I believe there was a bullying atmosphere on that board.A couple of the people who made fun of me then here now but this board has a different atmosphere so I am willing to forgive.

PaintItBlack wrote:

So many of the people w on the old forum were just  total______________! I was harassed by some of those people badly.There was once a whole thread on there posting things I had said from another site and making fun of me, calling me names and talking about how stupid and worthless I was and I wasn't saying anything about the victims and I wasn't on that board and I had done nothing to those people. It got very nasty and went on anout a week.I was harassed on You Tube by Ms.Dollhouse Pink, Mary and CRS 1988 and one of Ms.Dollhouses good 14 year old friends although I can't remember her user name now.I believe there was a bullying atmosphere on that board.A couple of the people who made fun of me then  here now but this board has a different atmosphere so I am willing to forgive.

Ms. Dollhouse Pink signed up to this forum. She tried doing it anonymously but I knew it was her. She signed up just to post in a thread that I should "Dylan Klebold" myself and then she had her little sidekick MnM harass me through Abuse Complaints. People like that have no life, are pathetic and are closet fans themselves but are so ashamed of it that they need to make fun of other fans to feel better about themselves. 95% of RPG were fans but just wouldn't admit it. And believe me, I know about the harassment that went on there. I was harassed from the minute I signed up on there all because I introduced myself saying that I sympathize with Dylan and Eric or something along those lines.

Then, after I opened this forum they continued to harass me so badly that I had to file police complaints against 3 of them and contact hidemyass about 30 times to get their real IP addresses that they were trying to mask with a hidemyass IP and contact Internet service providers such as Comcast and fax them over copies of the police complaints I filed on their IP addresses. And they weren't just harassing me about being a fan anymore they were threatening to post personal information like my real name, address and pictures they had stolen from mine and Ivan's Facebook's that they had altered. Ivan and I had to leave Facebook altogether at one point because they kept harassing us. I mean it is at a point where I think they need serious psychological help. I could see if they send one or two messages cuz they didn't like us or whatever but this has been going on since before Ivan and I opened this place.

There was this one member (who was apparently a school teacher). A school teach who should be trying to prevent bullying but was the worst of all of them. Her and another member from RPG hacked my Facebook, stole private conversations and posted them all over RPG while doing other atrocious things like making fun of Ivan for his house burning down. The owner at the time (of RPG) allowed them to post links to Ivan's personal Facebook page and personal photos they had stolen. He claimed (the owner) that he wanted a "self moderated forum" but basically what that meant was that people could merciless harass and bullying people not only on the forum but off of it too. The only time he ever stepped in was when somebody harassed or threatened him.

So anyways, I understand what you went through on RPG because I went through very similar things and I can assure you that nothing like that will ever happen to you here.

I remember MnM as being someone who was extremely anti-bully and would bring up his years of being bullied all the time. You shouldn't judge him so harshly. Right?

Jenn wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

So many of the people w on the old forum were just  total______________! I was harassed by some of those people badly.There was once a whole thread on there posting things I had said from another site and making fun of me, calling me names and talking about how stupid and worthless I was and I wasn't saying anything about the victims and I wasn't on that board and I had done nothing to those people. It got very nasty and went on anout a week.I was harassed on You Tube by Ms.Dollhouse Pink, Mary and CRS 1988 and one of Ms.Dollhouses good 14 year old friends although I can't remember her user name now.I believe there was a bullying atmosphere on that board.A couple of the people who made fun of me then  here now but this board has a different atmosphere so I am willing to forgive.

Ms. Dollhouse Pink signed up to this forum. She tried doing it anonymously but I knew it was her. She signed up just to post in a thread that I should "Dylan Klebold" myself and then she had her little sidekick MnM harass me through Abuse Complaints. People like that have no life, are pathetic and are closet fans themselves but are so ashamed of it that they need to make fun of other fans to feel better about themselves. 95% of RPG were fans but just wouldn't admit it. And believe me, I know about the harassment that went on there. I was harassed from the minute I signed up on there all because I introduced myself saying that I sympathize with Dylan and Eric or something along those lines.

Then, after I opened this forum they continued to harass me so badly that I had to file police complaints against 3 of them and contact hidemyass about 30 times to get their real IP addresses that they were trying to mask with a hidemyass IP and contact Internet service providers such as Comcast and fax them over copies of the police complaints I filed on their IP addresses. And they weren't just harassing me about being a fan anymore they were threatening to post personal information like my real name, address and pictures they had stolen from mine and Ivan's Facebook's that they had altered. Ivan and I had to leave Facebook altogether at one point because they kept harassing us. I mean it is at a point where I think they need serious psychological help. I could see if they send one or two messages cuz they didn't like us or whatever but this has been going on since before Ivan and I opened this place.

There was this one member (who was apparently a school teacher). A school teach who should be trying to prevent bullying but was the worst of all of them. Her and another member from RPG hacked my Facebook, stole private conversations and posted them all over RPG while doing other atrocious things like making fun of Ivan for his house burning down. The owner at the time (of RPG) allowed them to post links to Ivan's personal Facebook page and personal photos they had stolen. He claimed (the owner) that he wanted a "self moderated forum" but basically what that meant was that people could merciless harass and bullying people not only on the forum but off of it too. The only time he ever stepped in was when somebody harassed or threatened him.

So anyways, I understand what you went through on RPG because I went through very similar things and I can assure you that nothing like that will ever happen to you here.

Wow,that is amazing.Talk about crossing a line.I'm sorry all that happened to you.I am not sorry that board is gone.I am sure that others feel the same.

Paintitblack: Saying "your family is full of awful people" is not simply "expressing disagreement", it was meant to harass. I had seen that person's tumblr page. I never said you were the one who sent those messages to Mrs. Petrone either. Why is it okay for people to pester the mother of a victim, but not okay to not consider Eric and Dylan victims of the tragedy?

There is no justification for harming other people due to one's devotion or whatever you want to call it to Eric and Dylan. Having a mere interest in them is a different thing. Being attracted to and relating to them is a different thing. However, being bullied is not a reason to harm others. Verbally, through the Internet, or with weapons.

Why are you condeming people who have, out of ignorance, blamed the H and K families for anything in the massacre but giving a pass to those (like the girl with the brother) who have, out of their own ignorance, assumed the victims were bullies? Your logic is confusing to me.

As for the people who bullied you on the old forum, I recall some of those names. I wasn't a member if the forum, I just lurked from time to time when it was active. Maybe I'll check the archive to see what was said by them. The moderation should be much better here though so you probably won't have to deal with anyone who cyber bullied you there on this new forum.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I remember MnM as being someone who was extremely anti-bully and would bring up his years of being bullied all the time.  You shouldn't judge him so harshly.  Right?

He is only "anti-bully" when he is talking about how HE was bullied in junior high school 30 years ago. He isn't "anti-bully" when he is the one bullying.

Jenn wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

I remember MnM as being someone who was extremely anti-bully and would bring up his years of being bullied all the time.  You shouldn't judge him so harshly.  Right?

He is only "anti-bully" when he is talking about how HE was bullied in junior high school 30 years ago. He isn't "anti-bully" when he is the one bullying.

I see. That's kind of disappointing. I disagree with him many times but he was always cordial.

I only said that the person who sent the message didn't do it to harass , but they did it out of a sense of outrage.That was the point I was making and it is the truth because the person said it their selves.This person was outraged over the family's actions and sent the message to express that outrage.It wasn't harassment done out of being a fan or because they were a fan.In retrospect, it wasn't a good idea.I was only stating the person's stated motivations unlike some of the people on the Mauser's page who I guess at least at times were harassing. I simply stated why the girl whose brother died is so bitter.I don't know that anyone who found their 16 year brother dead from a shotgun wound because of bullying and nothing was ever done about it has gotten a pass on anything.

sergeant hartman wrote:

Jenn wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

I remember MnM as being someone who was extremely anti-bully and would bring up his years of being bullied all the time.  You shouldn't judge him so harshly.  Right?

He is only "anti-bully" when he is talking about how HE was bullied in junior high school 30 years ago. He isn't "anti-bully" when he is the one bullying.

I see.  That's kind of disappointing.  I disagree with him many times but he was always cordial.

His true colors didn't show until after Mad_Hatter got banned from SBB and MnM made a thread practically begging for Hatter (the member who told MnM to kill himself) to be allowed back. When MnM didn't get his way he made this thread attacking the Admin of SBB who then went and banned him. After he was banned, he went and harassed her even more through Facebook and contacting the forum. I am convinced that he was the reason SBB was closed down.

Then, afterwards, he signed up here and told me on several of occasions that he was going to use my forum to bully the Admin of SBB into opening it back up. He told me that if people from SBB reported my forum because of what he was doing that I could always just "open a new one". He was warned here many times for calling people on SBB names and posting their real names and making thread after thread directed towards them. Finally I had enough of him breaking the rules (after he posted a private conversation he had with Adorkable on Facebook that had many people's real names in it) and banned him. After I banned him, he continued to harass me with Abuse Complaints and his friend, Ms Dollhouse Pink, who he opened up "Oddly Interested" with signed up here to tell me to "Dylan Klebold" myself. He then sent out a mass PM on this forum calling Ivan and I "crazy", saying I was just like the Admin of SBB and said they should all leave my forum and go to his all because I banned him for breaking the rules a dozen times. Does that sound like someone who is "anti-bully" to you?

That still constitutes cyberbullying and a personal attack on her family, and is by no means justifiable or productive. I'd be surprised if it was the first time she's gotten a hate letter like that though. Like I said, I've seen that person's tumblr before, and they had made it obvious that their judgment was clouded by their devotion to Eric and Dylan and in the message they even pretended to care about Cassie's memory. That particular person was no different than the people who attacked Tom on his tribute video to Daniel.

And I wish that girl didn't feel the need to disrespect the victims. I hope she comes around and stays strong for her brother- I hope he gets justice. If particular people in fact F'ed with him, they should be punished.

That was for PaintItBlack. Gah it's hard to find the edit button on mobile lol.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

That was for PaintItBlack. Gah it's hard to find the edit button on mobile lol.

Yes, it would be a little bit easier to figure out who you are talking to if you quote that person.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

That still constitutes cyberbullying and a personal attack on her family, and is by no means justifiable or productive. I'd be surprised if it was the first time she's gotten a hate letter like that though. Like I said, I've seen that person's tumblr before, and they had made it obvious that their judgment was clouded by their devotion to Eric and Dylan and in the message they even pretended to care about Cassie's memory. That particular person was no different than the people who attacked Tom on his tribute video to Daniel.

And I wish that girl didn't feel the need to disrespect the victims. I hope she comes around and stays strong for her brother- I hope he gets justice. If particular people in fact F'ed with him, they should be punished.

I didn't say it was the right thing to do.I only stated what the motivation was.I do see a difference in harassing someone just to be an__________ and harassing them because you feel genuinely upset about something, but I agree it shouldn't be done.The H &K families got a lot of hate mail for sometime after the shooting and I thought that was terrible and wrong to do too. Same thing.

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

That still constitutes cyberbullying and a personal attack on her family, and is by no means justifiable or productive. I'd be surprised if it was the first time she's gotten a hate letter like that though. Like I said, I've seen that person's tumblr before, and they had made it obvious that their judgment was clouded by their devotion to Eric and Dylan and in the message they even pretended to care about Cassie's memory. That particular person was no different than the people who attacked Tom on his tribute video to Daniel.

And I wish that girl didn't feel the need to disrespect the victims. I hope she comes around and stays strong for her brother- I hope he gets justice. If particular people in fact F'ed with him, they should be punished.

I didn't say it was the right thing to do.I only stated what the motivation was.I do see a difference in harassing someone just to be an__________ and harassing them because you feel genuinely  upset about something, but I agree it shouldn't be done.The H &K families got a lot of hate mail for sometime after the shooting and I thought that was terrible and wrong to do too. Same thing.

If they were only genuinely upset about it though, they would have communicated that differently, instead of personally attacking them with 'your family is full of f**ked up people' and 'you are no better than murderers'.

I think they were sincerely upset.But there is often a kinder, gentler,better way to put things.People often ignore that because they get angry and pop things off out of that anger.

Like Brian chopping up the crosses.

I was glad to hear that some families who did these things and said these things and seemed to hate the H & K family's have softened a little bit in their stances towards them and maybe even have some sympathy towards them now.Brian had nothing good to say as late as 2009 so I was surprised and very pleased to hear that he had expressed some sympathy for their loss.I hope that eventually some of the other family's that still feel that way will come to understand and have some sympathy for their loss too.

In the end, everyone that day was a victim, the people who died are a victim, the survivors with psychological trauma are a victim and after all, Eric and Dylan too and they were the first ones. So in total, there are not 13 or 15 victims, "Teenagers are cruel and can make others feel little and insignificant." like someone said. The whole population of the school was a victim that day, including the killers that were part of the institution too.

Regarding the fans, Ive always said that they feel identified with Eric and Dylan, they can see their lives or the life of someone close to them in the lives of the boys. Many of them, have or had suicide thoughts and are or were depress (I could see it in the tumblr of many of them). They can also see in Daniel Mauser or Rachel Scott, the people of their school that bully them or reject them or the people that had a life that they wish, so a way to offend them is like defend themselves, but of couse that there is a lot of immaturity and they cross the line. I understand them but they do things that are really disgusting and disrespectful sometimes and if they are angry, they must take that hate and anger to another place or taking it out in something helpful.

Mj2beat wrote:

In the end, everyone that day was a victim, the people who died are a victim, the survivors with psychological trauma are a victim and after all, Eric and Dylan too and they were the first ones. So in total, there are not 13 or 15 victims.

I agree that we can't count an exact number of victims because Columbine affected so many people's lives.

I guess I am kinda late to post on this thread but anyway ...

I think that of the 15 dead all 15 were victims, except 2 were victims of a different crime.

There were 15 people who lost their lives that day and I think its teh best way to phrase it.

Eric and Dylan victims? Not really. Perpetrators first and foremost, but we do need to recognize taht tehy also died, that their parents also lost their kids. That the brothers losta  sibling and that they too were CHS students who died on 4/20.

They should nto be equated with teh 13 victims, but they should not be erased out of the picture.

In my opinion, there were more than 15 victims.
Everyone who died there - were victims. I feel for them.
13 people were victims of Eric and Dylan, while Eric and Dylan were victims of their own anger and desperation. They were not innocent, but they were victims.
(I wonder if it is just me, but I think everyone who commits suicide can be considered as a victim. A victim of hopelessness, despair or something like this.)
There were 21 (or 24?) people who injured, many of them became paralyzed for the rest of their lives. They are victims too. Their environments surely experience difficulties.
Those who were lucky enough to survive without injuries are victims too. It is not only some nonsense psycho-blabla: posttrauma and complex posttrauma is difficult to handle.

But the relatives, friends, classmates, colleagues who probably still mourn the deceased - are victims too!

I really don't want to be rude or hurt anyone's feelings, but calling yourself a "fan" of E/D is definitely crossing a line. There's nothing wrong with sympathizing for them or understanding their mindsets. I'd go so far as to argue that Columbine has become a kind of coping mechanism for those of us who suffered through bullying during our own stints in highschool. Hell I don't even see anything wrong with teenage girls having crushes on them. They boys were human beings after all with emotions and feelings like the rest of us.

All that said there is a HUGE difference between being a sympathizer and being a "fan". People are fans of sports players because they inspire them to push their own limits. People are fans of artists and musicians because their work speaks to them. Being a fan of E/D implies that you're okay (or even support) the murders of 13 innocent human beings. It doesn't matter how much you personally were bullied in your own life. There isn't a shred of evidence that a single person killed that day ever so much as spoke Ill of E/D. No matter how hard you try the attack can't be justified.

Do you guys think it's easier for some people or if possible some parents to forgive Eric and Dylan and regard them as victims too because of the fact that the kids they shot and ended up killed were not targeted individually or prior to 4/20? Meaning some would find it easier to grasp and move on by telling themselves, well, Eric and Dylan were victims too before Columbine, they were troubled kids who needed help and acceptance, the school treated them badly etc etc, and my child got killed because they happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, and fell tragic at the hands of two kids who were troubled too. The kids who got killed were collateral damage of a bigger issue which is what was going on in E&D's minds. Do you think this is one way we may see and regard the boys as victims?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: yes, understanding or having sympathy towards Eric and Dylan is definitely not the same as having a fandom. I have heard that certain girls find the "bad boys" exciting in general. Maybe this has something to do with this fandom?
Great that you see the difference between understanding and "fangirl" attitude.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: this can be true, thinking about Eric and Dylan as former victims increases empathy and might lead to some kind of forgiveness.
But I think that moving on is not easy - might be impossible - if a parent loses a daughter or a son. The loss is something irreplaceable. This is why I assume that forgiving the shooters might give some ease, but dealing with the loss of one's own child is always very difficult.

Do you mean: at least the killing was not so calculated, like killing everyone whom they disliked or whom they had had problems with in the past?

Yes. An extended damage. Eric and Dylan had such an enormous rage inside that it was not only them who fell as victims. I still think they had been victims for a long time, and turned into perpetrators.

Moonshadow wrote:

Do you mean: at least the killing was not so calculated, like killing everyone whom they disliked or whom they had had problems with in the past?

Yes. An extended damage. Eric and Dylan had such an enormous rage inside that it was not only them who fell as victims. I still think they had been victims for a long time, and turned into perpetrators.

Yeah, something like that. Meaning like a parent of a victim is able to forgive them somehow because despite the fact that they took their child's life away, they try to tell themselves that my child wasn't specifically targeted to get murdered, my child just happened to be there, and their death is the result of the boys issues, which they choose to handle by homicide and suicide.

Thirteen victims.

I believe in a lot of ways Dylan and Eric are sympathetic and are even victims from certain points of view. But I lose a lot of that sympathy for them whenever I read through what they did in the library (including the taunting and mocking of the dying) and then the (admittedly it would never would have went worked) plans of bombing the school.

It was completely justified to cut down the crosses dedicated to them at the memorial. They are murderers. Murderers should never be honored with their victims. It's terrible behavior that causes more pain to the families.

15 deaths but 13 victims. But I believe Eric and Dylan were victims too. Victims of their own hate and sadness.

I do empathize with Eric and Dylan for several reasons, however, I do not consider them to be victims.  They may have been victims of bullying before the massacre, but the day they decided to kill innocent people they became perpetrators.

pisada wrote:

Thirteen victims.

I believe in a lot of ways Dylan and Eric are sympathetic and are even victims from certain points of view. But I lose a lot of that sympathy for them whenever I read through what they did in the library (including the taunting and mocking of the dying) and then the (admittedly it would never would have went worked) plans of bombing the school.

It was completely justified to cut down the crosses dedicated to them at the memorial. They are murderers. Murderers should never be honored with their victims. It's terrible behavior that causes more pain to the families.

Putting up the crosses wasn't terrible behavior.Greg Zanis put the crosses up out of true Christian love, and compassion.As a Christian, that is exactly what he should have done.If he hadn't put them up, he wouldn't have been acting with a true Christian spirit.
It's worth noting that while some of the other victim's families might not have liked the crosses being there it was only Dan Rohrbough's family that took them down, although they and the Velasquez chopped down 2 of the 15 trees planted by Cassie Bernall's church 6 months later.

Fifteen.