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 Satanic Evil

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PostSubject: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeFri Nov 22, 2013 2:42 pm

Witnesses to the shooting such as Craig Scott, Evan Todd, Heidi Johnson, and many others claim to have felt or sensed a demonic/satanic presence during the event. Other witnesses have claimed that TCM members were satanists. The boys raged a lot about God during the massacre.

Anyone have any thoughts on the religious/supernatural aspect of NBK?
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeFri Nov 22, 2013 3:28 pm

Littleton is heavy on the Christianity. The hardcore fundamental variety - so it's not too surprising that this would be these students' immediate impression.  There is quite a bit of praying going on under those tables.  In their minds, the battle was unquestionably God versus The Devil and Good versus Evil.  I'm sure any victims in that situation would probably say they felt an air of menace and malicious intent if there were shooters walking around them toying with hiding people in very vulnerable hiding places. Those that apply 'evil intent' in terms of "satan" are likely coming from a christian viewpoint as it's part of their belief system.  You can pretty much call it whatever you like that would be the opposite of intent coming from a place of love and compassion. ;)

A few of the TCM dabbled, I believe Eric Dutro had an occult interest, but I do not think the group as a whole were organized about anything including satanism.  The TCM essentially collected an arsenal of shock value things that made mainstream, xtian students wary of them. That would include anything from military dress, brandishing knives, spouting german, praising Hitler to likely saying a few evocations from Anton LeVey's Satanic Bible to get a rise out of religious students.  It's all about the shock.  E & D raged about God during the massacre because the hardcore christianity was basically shoved down everyone's throats in Littleton. As rebellious teens, E & D got sick of the proselytizing and religious propoganda.  Weapon workship was more their speed.


Last edited by InFiNiNcEX5 on Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:47 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeFri Nov 22, 2013 3:31 pm

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
Littleton is heavy on the Christianity. The hardcore fundamental variety - so it's not too surprising that this would these students' immediate impression.  There is quite a bit of praying going on under those tables.  In their minds, the battle was unquestionably God versus The Devil and Good versus Evil.  I'm sure any victims in that situation would probably say they felt an air of menace and malicious intent if their were shooters walking around them toying with hiding people in very vulnerable hiding places. Those that apply 'evil intent' in terms of "satan" are likely coming from a christian viewpoint as it's part of their belief system.  You can pretty much call it what ever you like that would be the opposite of intent coming from a place of love and compassion. ;)

A few of the TCM dabbled, I believe Eric Dutro had an occult interest, but I do not think the group as a whole were organized about anything including satanism.  The TCM essentially collected an arsenal of shock value things that made mainstream, xtian students wary of them. That would include anything from military dress, brandishing knives, spouting german, praising Hitler to likely saying a few evocations from Anton LeVey's Satanic Bible to get a rise out of religious students.  It's all about the shock.  E & D raged about God during the massacre because the hardcore christianity was basically shoved down everyone's throats in Littleton. As rebellious teens, E & D got sick of the proselytizing and religious propoganda.  Weapon workship was more their speed.
Great post!
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeFri Nov 22, 2013 4:15 pm

gustopoet wrote:
Witnesses to the shooting such as Craig Scott, Evan Todd, Heidi Johnson, and many others claim to have felt or sensed a demonic/satanic presence during the event. Other witnesses have claimed that TCM members were satanists. The boys raged a lot about God during the massacre.

Anyone have any thoughts on the religious/supernatural aspect of NBK?
 Did Eric and Dylan believe in reincarnation? Dylan said he would be happy " where ever the Fu** i go ". Eric said he would come back ( after his death ) and haunt his victims. When E & D's bodies were removed from the school an unexpected storm slammed through the area. The police/SWAT were inside of the library and glass from the broken windows was falling around them. Eric was evil beyond words. He murdered terrified little girls who were hiding under tables ,he mocked and laughed at them ,then shot them. Each pull of the trigger destroyed a life , a family and a community and after his own death he still wanted to terrorize people. I do not think that Eric could have ever been satisfied. If the cafe bombs had blown up as planned and killed 250 people , Eric would have wanted more dead. I am not religious but if Eric was reincarnated , he would come back as a gun ,a bomb and anything that has great destructive powers. Spooky .
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeFri Nov 22, 2013 4:29 pm

rik75 wrote:
gustopoet wrote:
Witnesses to the shooting such as Craig Scott, Evan Todd, Heidi Johnson, and many others claim to have felt or sensed a demonic/satanic presence during the event. Other witnesses have claimed that TCM members were satanists. The boys raged a lot about God during the massacre.

Anyone have any thoughts on the religious/supernatural aspect of NBK?
 Did Eric and Dylan believe in reincarnation? Dylan said he would be happy " where ever the Fu** i go ". Eric said he would come back ( after his death ) and haunt his victims. When E & D's bodies were removed from the school an unexpected storm slammed through the area. The police/SWAT were inside of the library and glass from the broken windows was falling around them. Eric was evil beyond words. He murdered terrified little girls who were hiding under tables ,he mocked and laughed at them ,then shot them. Each pull of the trigger destroyed a life , a family and a community and after his own death he still wanted to terrorize people. I do not think that Eric could have ever been satisfied. If the cafe bombs had blown up as planned and killed 250 people , Eric would have wanted more dead. I am not religious but if Eric was reincarnated , he would come back as a gun ,a bomb and anything that has great destructive powers. Spooky .
I did not know that about the storm. Thanks. I think NBK falls in line with other mass-murders in terms of "sinister forces." If anyone is interested, a writer named Peter Levenda has done some great work on the topic. Nothing directly related to Columbine that I know of, but the basic premise of sinister forces that emanate from sacred Indian lands and/or CIA "Monarch" style hocus-pocus would seem to fit nicely with the location and history of the crime and killers.... Mind you, I'm not saying I personally endorse this idea. Just musing.

I think you are right in suggesting both of the boys held out a belief in the possibility of an afterlife. They both said they hoped it would be like an eternal DOOM game.... Of course Dylan wrote of a completely contradictory hope in his journal: of the "halcyon" with "her" beyond his human-form where he could finally be free to love.



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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeSun Nov 24, 2013 10:30 am

gustopoet wrote:
Anyone have any thoughts on the religious/supernatural aspect of NBK?
You're asking about Evil. maybe what you feel happened during the shooting, depends on your philosophical/religious conception? Some people see Evil as an actual, personified force in the world. It seems many survivors in the library felt that way, maybe because of their christian upbringing. Others think there is no Evil, just what humans do to each other, what Earth does to its inhabitants, subject to no moral standards (When pushed to its extreme: Eric?). Maybe others yet think, there's a bit of evil in good and vice versa, nothing completely Evil or completely Good or it's all relative.

(Personally speaking? Right now, I'm in a ''Thinking of Evil Crisis of Conscience''. My conception is changing to one where Evil may be an actual force, thus the capital letter. Maybe not with horns and hooves but, a real, spiritual force acting in the world.)

Got some interesting supernatural ideas about Columbine off ''The Strangeness of Columbine'', an ebook by Douglas Ord who had been participating over at the old discussion board at some point and has a website. Some people do not like the book, think it's far-fetched. Ok. I liked it, it's weird so I like it.

Anyway. So, in the book, the author makes a parallel between various things happening and dates and people and places. One parallel the author makes is that of the Sand Creek massacre happening in the 19th century, very close to Columbine. There are various elements he sees as connecting to Columbine, because we have records of witnesses and participants in the Sand Creek massacre. One of the participants come off as Eric-like in his writings. I'm not sure what the author concludes on this as he lets the reader tie up the loose ends. How you tie those loose ends depends on your receptivity to things metaphysical and your perception on the universe.

I got the idea the author was saying that events repeat themselves through time, again and again, events connect through each other. We can decode them with symbols emerging if we are perceptive enough. Maybe the most understandable concept relating to that is that of karma. That if you shed blood in the past by  killing ''injuns'', you're bound to suffer a similar fate later on. Or maybe it's just the Indians' spirits coming after you. Crazy stuff, no?

Later on, the author makes another parallel with evil possession from The Shining. That novel takes place in Colorado, with a little boy who becomes perceptive of spirits in the hotel his family is staying at. What if Dylan, the ''transciever of the everything'', is like the boy in The Shining? Somehow, Dylan may have captured influences off the land he's living on, a land made of strange red boulders Indians saw as sacred, where the spirits reside, a land where an organization, who may be seen as feeding on blood, (Lockheed-Martin) is conducting research and making missiles and arms, in visible distance from Dylan's family home. Maybe Dylan picked up on all those influences, is the idea in the book.

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"Is evil something you are? Or is it something you do? My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape."
- American Psycho - Bret Easton Ellis (1991)
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeSun Nov 24, 2013 11:21 am

JayJay wrote:
gustopoet wrote:
Anyone have any thoughts on the religious/supernatural aspect of NBK?
You're asking about Evil. maybe what you feel happened during the shooting, depends on your philosophical/religious conception? Some people see Evil as an actual, personified force in the world. It seems many survivors in the library felt that way, maybe because of their christian upbringing. Others think there is no Evil, just what humans do to each other, what Earth does to its inhabitants, subject to no moral standards (When pushed to its extreme: Eric?). Maybe others yet think, there's a bit of evil in good and vice versa, nothing completely Evil or completely Good or it's all relative.

(Personally speaking? Right now, I'm in a ''Thinking of Evil Crisis of Conscience''. My conception is changing to one where Evil may be an actual force, thus the capital letter. Maybe not with horns and hooves but, a real, spiritual force acting in the world.)

Got some interesting supernatural ideas about Columbine off ''The Strangeness of Columbine'', an ebook by Douglas Ord who had been participating over at the old discussion board at some point and has a website. Some people do not like the book, think it's far-fetched. Ok. I liked it, it's weird so I like it.

Anyway. So, in the book, the author makes a parallel between various things happening and dates and people and places. One parallel the author makes is that of the Sand Creek massacre happening in the 19th century, very close to Columbine. There are various elements he sees as connecting to Columbine, because we have records of witnesses and participants in the Sand Creek massacre. One of the participants come off as Eric-like in his writings. I'm not sure what the author concludes on this as he lets the reader tie up the loose ends. How you tie those loose ends depends on your receptivity to things metaphysical and your perception on the universe.

I got the idea the author was saying that events repeat themselves through time, again and again, events connect through each other. We can decode them with symbols emerging if we are perceptive enough. Maybe the most understandable concept relating to that is that of karma. That if you shed blood in the past by  killing ''injuns'', you're bound to suffer a similar fate later on. Or maybe it's just the Indians' spirits coming after you. Crazy stuff, no?

Later on, the author makes another parallel with evil possession from The Shining. That novel takes place in Colorado, with a little boy who becomes perceptive of spirits in the hotel his family is staying at. What if Dylan, the ''transciever of the everything'', is like the boy in The Shining? Somehow, Dylan may have captured influences off the land he's living on, a land made of strange red boulders Indians saw as sacred, where the spirits reside, a land where an organization, who may be seen as feeding on blood, (Lockheed-Martin) is conducting research and making missiles and arms, in visible distance from Dylan's family home. Maybe Dylan picked up on all those influences, is the idea in the book.
That book sounds absolutely interesting. Do you know, if it is possible to read e-books on a Pc?
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeSun Nov 24, 2013 11:23 am

Yes, it is. At least from Amazon.com it is. You just have to download the Kindle application off the page for the book for free. Then you order the book and you can read it. You can also make notes as you read and save that too.

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"Is evil something you are? Or is it something you do? My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape."
- American Psycho - Bret Easton Ellis (1991)
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeSun Nov 24, 2013 11:27 am

JayJay wrote:
Yes, it is. At least from Amazon.com it is. You just have to download the Kindle application off the page for the book for free. Then you order the book and you can read it. You can also make notes as you read and save that too.
Ah, that is very good. Thank you!

Comparing Dylan to the boy from the Shining...that just does fit perfectly.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeSun Nov 24, 2013 11:39 am

This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to get with this thread!
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 11:12 am

gustopoet wrote:
This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to get with this thread!
Great ..Well done Smile  Great post !
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 3:00 pm

I've also read "the strageness of columbine" and found it interesting. Very strange but a good read.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 4:55 pm

I think you're looking into it far too much, and until you can prove the existence of demonic forces, there's nothing to suggest that they had anything to do with the massacre that day.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 5:12 pm

Ivan wrote:
I think you're looking into it far too much, and until you can prove the existence of demonic forces, there's nothing to suggest that they had anything to do with the massacre that day.
What?! I firmly believe that Satan maintains a presence in every High School in America! And it's a well-known fact that eating Cinniminis and ketchup leads to demonic possession!

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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 5:12 pm

rebel82 wrote:
I've also read "the strageness of columbine" and found it interesting. Very strange but a good read.
Definitely sounds like something to look into....
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 5:16 pm

gustopoet wrote:
Ivan wrote:
I think you're looking into it far too much, and until you can prove the existence of demonic forces, there's nothing to suggest that they had anything to do with the massacre that day.
What?! I firmly believe that Satan maintains a presence in every High School in America! And it's a well-known fact that eating Cinniminis and ketchup leads to demonic possession!

Twisted Evil
So do you have an argument to back yourself up?
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 5:18 pm

Hale-Bopp wrote:

Comparing Dylan to the boy from the Shining...that just does fit perfectly.
Someone should do a haunted high-school movie inspired by Columbine....
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 5:29 pm

Ivan wrote:
gustopoet wrote:
Ivan wrote:
I think you're looking into it far too much, and until you can prove the existence of demonic forces, there's nothing to suggest that they had anything to do with the massacre that day.
What?! I firmly believe that Satan maintains a presence in every High School in America! And it's a well-known fact that eating Cinniminis and ketchup leads to demonic possession!

Twisted Evil
So do you have an argument to back yourself up?
No, I think the devilish aspect of Cinniminis is pretty self-evident. As for ketchup, if you think of it as tomato blood, rather than sauce, the sinister side's a lot easier to see.

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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 5:40 pm

gustopoet wrote:
Ivan wrote:
gustopoet wrote:
Ivan wrote:
I think you're looking into it far too much, and until you can prove the existence of demonic forces, there's nothing to suggest that they had anything to do with the massacre that day.
What?! I firmly believe that Satan maintains a presence in every High School in America! And it's a well-known fact that eating Cinniminis and ketchup leads to demonic possession!

Twisted Evil
So do you have an argument to back yourself up?
No, I think the devilish aspect of Cinniminis is pretty self-evident. As for ketchup, if you think of it as tomato blood, rather than sauce, the sinister side's a lot easier to see.

clown
Wow.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 6:01 pm

Satanic cults have been known to fund "patsies" Son of Sam was one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 6:12 pm

trench coat wrote:
Satanic cults have been known to fund "patsies" Son of Sam was one of them.  
That was, what he later claimed. But I don't think that there is any doubt, that he acted alone.

I know, its off-topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 6:22 pm

I always thought Satanic religions were tongue in cheek, a mockery of actual religion to show how ridiculous they were.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeTue Nov 26, 2013 10:14 pm

Moseley wrote:
I always thought Satanic religions were tongue in cheek, a mockery of actual religion to show how ridiculous they were.
I think there are many varieties of Satanism actually, ranging from Theistic (those that really believe in a Satan) and agnostic (those who don't believe in any kind of supernatural power and use Satan symbolically).
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 3:23 am

There are indeed quite a few variants of Satanism, and not all of those believe in the Devil as its literal figurehead. Most of the people I have met who adhered to this view spoke of it from an individualistic/humanistic standpoint that uses the concept of the Devil as an expression of the balancing dark force in nature and the inner personality/desires of the individual. It replaces most of religion's "let go and let God" to become "take responsibility for yourself". Of course, there is also theistic Satanism that does have the archetype of the Devil as its deity-like persona. Tongue-in-cheek, perhaps, at times, but even within that group there are sub-denominations that all have a different view and approach to the worship.

In terms of Columbine, InFiNiNcEX5 already pointed out that the community around it is very hardcore/fundamentalist Christian in origin. The raging about the Christian God done by both boys, I feel, was as much "where is your God now?" as it was "what has your God ever done for me?". Living in a community like that would have God being shoved down everyone's throat on a regular basis, even at the possible cost of common sense and critical thought in the approach to everyday life's events. I can imagine that to be a very frustrating thing. I don't think either one of the boys identified with Christianity to the extent that most of their classmates did. I think they would have ascribed to the concept of atheistic Satanism, or to a more agnostic/atheistic/something-ism mindset than they would any dogmatic religion. However, I'm not convinced that they had any conscious connection with the archetypical Devil to the point where there'd be a literal demonic/satanic component to the shooting that these boys would've consciously brought into the picture. It seems far more likely that the survivors of the massacre sensed this presence of 'evil' because of their fear, their experiences, and their respective religion. We always hold on to the concepts that make sense to us spiritually, especially during times of deep emotional crisis, and their spiritual concept would have included a literal presence of evil making its mark on their world.

Regarding the supernatural component of NBK in general, I'd be really interested to know how the land in Littleton feels. (Oh boy, do I sound like the author from "Strangeness in Columbine" now?) A part of my religion really does include the awareness of the influence of the land and the spirits who've roamed these lands before now. It'd be fascinating for me to try and connect with the land in and around Littleton in that respect. It's my belief that it will always have an influence on the people living there today, but to what extent is something I am not sure on.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 6:40 am

At first I want to make clear, that although I do believe in things such as forces, I don't really use the character of "Satan" and don't know much about it. So there is nothing, I can bring to the table about Satanic Evil.
I do however use/think in the term of a character like Lucifer, who is clearly not the same character like Satan is. If we start with the name, Lucifer means either "morning star" or "bringer of light", depending on, if you use it as noun or adjective. There is no way, why Satan should be called a bringer of light.
There was a roman god who was called Lucifer and who was bringing the dawn to the sky, so it seems like the Christians at some point, just transformed this roman god into something they were afraid of- Satan (although this character clearly has other cultural roots, like I pointed out before), the "fallen angel", etc.

If we now think about the fallen angel, lets start with the fact, that I'm far away from being well-educated when it comes to the bible, so lets just say, there is an angel in the bible, who is rebellious against god and falls down to either the hell or earth (doesn't really matter at this point) and that this angel later became linked to Lucifer and Satan.

I cant help, but think about Eric and Dylan at this point. They both felt that they had a superior wisdom to the world around them (and especially to the authorities who run this world). While Eric articulated the world, he saw as an better ideal in a more rational way (although his concept clearly stayed in a pretty incoherent status), Dylan even felt, like he actually was in contact with something higher than the sphere of earth.
Couldn't this be compared to the angel who rants against god for not creating a perfect world (correct me, if the original story was different, that is just what I remember) and thus seeking for an godlike status himself? Just like Eric and Dylan did, when they tried to display what they thought to be a higher wisdom and superior ideals through an attack, that gave them a godlike-status for about 40 minutes.

I know, that the connection appears to be pretty random, because the will to replace something, that is considered as bad with an ideal, through violent acts is such a basic and overall conception. But this thread does wear the name of Satan and this is probably the closest thing, I can share to that subject.

By the way, I started to read "The strangeness of Columbine", yesterday. I did not read far, until yet, but I think we should make a thread about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 6:51 am

Hale-Bopp wrote:


By the way, I started to read "The strangeness of Columbine", yesterday. I did not read far, until yet, but I think we should make a thread about it.
There is a thread about The Strangeness of Columbine, as well as the author's site [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 8:14 am

Hale-Bopp wrote:
I do however use/think in the term of a character like Lucifer, who is clearly not the same character like Satan is. If we start with the name, Lucifer means either "morning star" or "bringer of light", depending on, if you use it as noun or adjective. There is no way, why Satan should be called a bringer of light.
Interesting to note is that the spiritual ideology of Luciferianism is often confused with that of theistic Satanism, but has a completely different viewpoint/starting point. Both spiritualities fall under the so-called Left-Hand Path within the western esoteric traditions. The one thing they really have in common is that both encourage the individual to become the best version of themselves they can be, but they both approach this in very different ways. Theistic Satanists see the primal force as a very animalistic/materialistic character, whereas the theistic Luciferians regard the primal force as an angel or god of light. Satanism in itself is very carnal/primal and recognises the state of mankind as being animalistic in nature. The welfare of the self has more value/importance than the welfare of humanity in general. It condemns violence in the same breath as it takes an elitist stance toward stupidity and speaks out in favour of materialism and self-indulgence. Luciferianism, in contrast, seeks to enlighten humanity. Their spirituality is not one fueled by purpose of conversion, but rather through the spreading of knowledge and understanding/tolerance in the aid of all mankind. In a way, they want mankind to continuously evolve and live up to its highest potential of being.

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I cant help, but think about Eric and Dylan at this point. They both felt that they had a superior wisdom to the world around them (and especially to the authorities who run this world). While Eric articulated the world, he saw as an better ideal in a more rational way (although his concept clearly stayed in a pretty incoherent status), Dylan even felt, like he actually was in contact with something higher than the sphere of earth.
I agree that this subject does make me think about Eric and Dylan. I actually think Eric would have clicked with the basics of Satanism if he was ever exposed to them, although I think its theistic/occult side may have been a little too 'out there' for his rational self. I don't think he settled on anything for sure spiritually speaking. It feels like he certainly wouldn't have cared about stuff like 'the fate of his immortal soul', you know? He was so rooted in Earth that there was no space for any kind of God. He was his own self-made god, in a sense. He was going to teach humanity a big lesson and he was going to go out with a bang.

I feel that Dylan may have been an abstract believer in God in the sense that he didn't have any one religion/denomination but still believed 'in something'. (The something-ism has become a lot more prevalent in this world lately. People believe in a benevolent/malevolent force, but don't give it a face or name beyond that concept. It is not something to worship, but rather just something that is there as a security blanket or a vague god-concept.) I think it got to the point for him where he became homesick for 'that better place' at the expense of living his life here on Earth. The more he felt he didn't belong, the more he fled into the idea of that place where he would belong. Dylan was going home on 4/20 and nobody could hold him back from that.

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Couldn't this be compared to the angel who rants against god for not creating a perfect world (correct me, if the original story was different, that is just what I remember) and thus seeking for an godlike status himself? Just like Eric and Dylan did, when they tried to display what they thought to be a higher wisdom and superior ideals through an attack, that gave them a godlike-status for about 40 minutes.
The original story is pretty complicated, because it has a great many origins and interpretations spanning several religions instead of just the one. The most common theme is one of pride and jealousy. Lucifer grew upset with God for creating mankind in His image and giving them dominion over Earth. He felt that this power should be his by right instead, and rebelled against God's rules and restrictions when it became apparent that 'the low human scum made of earth' would stand to inherit God's kingdom instead of him. It is interesting to note in this respect that angels by nature are extensions of God and God's instruments rather than beings with a will of their own.

In Eric and Dylan, I see Lucifer's frustration on a smaller scale. The upset in them is because those they felt were undeserving of 'power' received it freely, whereas they were rendered powerless continuously by the authority of the same system. There is a very strong undercurrent in their words and actions of wanting to have that power and dominion over Earth and mankind the same way Lucifer felt he was entitled to have. There are parallels in these stories that make a lot of sense to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 10:26 am

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Theistic Satanists see the primal force as a very animalistic/materialistic character, whereas the theistic Luciferians regard the primal force as an angel or god of light. Satanism in itself is very carnal/primal and recognises the state of mankind as being animalistic in nature. The welfare of the self has more value/importance than the welfare of humanity in general. It condemns violence in the same breath as it takes an elitist stance toward stupidity and speaks out in favour of materialism and self-indulgence.
Do theistic Satanists really think this way? I thought, that is the Ideology of the COS? I ask, because I don't know much about theistic Satanism, the only Group I know is the Temple of the Black Light/Misanthropic Luciferian Order and although they consider themselves as Satanists, their Ideology is heavily based on Gnosticism.

I agree with all the rest, that you said. And I want to remember, that although Eric didn't seem interested in spirituality, he at least expressed longing for a dream-like afterlife in his final weeks. So even if he may not believe it, he would not have necessarily been disgusted from spiritual ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 2:40 pm

There are as many different types of Satanism as there are of Christianity. There are also religions such as Thelema or the Temple of Set or Luciferianism that are aligned with elements of Satanism, such as the practice of magick, but are actually separate religions.

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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 2:45 pm

thedragonrampant wrote:


In Eric and Dylan, I see Lucifer's frustration on a smaller scale. The upset in them is because those they felt were undeserving of 'power' received it freely, whereas they were rendered powerless continuously by the authority of the same system. There is a very strong undercurrent in their words and actions of wanting to have that power and dominion over Earth and mankind the same way Lucifer felt he was entitled to have. There are parallels in these stories that make a lot of sense to me.
Excellent, thought-provoking post! I find myself in agreement with much of what you say. The insight you provide into the boys' psychological landscape here and in other posts is very much appreciated.  Go back and listen to "Stray Bullet" Eric's self-proclaimed theme-song and what you basically have is "techno-Milton" with KMFDM providing a soundtrack for one of Lucifer's monologues.

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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 3:43 pm

Hale-Bopp wrote:
[
Do theistic Satanists really think this way? I thought, that is the Ideology of the COS? I ask, because I don't know much about theistic Satanism, the only Group I know is the Temple of the Black Light/Misanthropic Luciferian Order and although they consider themselves as Satanists, their Ideology is heavily based on Gnosticism.
Good point. I think that CoS offshoots Nikolas Schreck and Zeena Levay actually embraced a form Nazi-Satanism that was theistic and also would be very much along the lines of something Eric Harris could get behind. They embraced violence, racism, and social Darwinism. Schreck even had a techno-band: Radio Werewolf....
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 3:56 pm

Also Vodka's fave KMFDM song "Godlike" could be viewed as a satanic manifesto. Most left-hand paths that are theistic involve the idea that the initiate eventually becomes a "god" and the atheistic satanic religions teach that we should function as our own gods.

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It's worth noting that the main riff of "Godlike" is based on a song by the band Slayer called "Angel of Death."
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 4:15 pm

Hale-Bopp wrote:
Do theistic Satanists really think this way? I thought, that is the Ideology of the COS? I ask, because I don't know much about theistic Satanism, the only Group I know is the Temple of the Black Light/Misanthropic Luciferian Order and although they consider themselves as Satanists, their Ideology is heavily based on Gnosticism.
I'd say that quite a few of them do. Some of their theism and practice definitely reaches back into the primordial deities whose very force of existence drives one into a life full of the carnal/primal nature of mankind. Yet, it is also very self-serving. They know themselves through the work they do with this force. They know that something that is not born out of necessity and self-preservation is essentially useless, which really puts a halt to most violence and ideas of natural selection. In my practice, the work that takes you on a journey through yourself is called 'shadow work' because it confronts you with the primordial aspect of your own nature. Your shadow self, if you will, brought to light because you allow it access. Most of the Satanists I have met over the years, whether they be theistic or atheistic or anywhere and everywhere inbetween, recognise this particular work as one of the highest goods there is.

I'm not saying that there is no place in Satanism for violence, racism, etc. There's as much a place for that in Satanism as there is, for instance, the Norse spirituality that unfortunately sees a lot of nazi-related ideologies crop up inside its walls. However, it's not the most common of practices. The people adhering to these philosophies within these spiritualities are not the majority, from what I have understood throughout the years, and so it would not do to hold the many accountable for the ideas of a few.

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I agree with all the rest, that you said. And I want to remember, that although Eric didn't seem interested in spirituality, he at least expressed longing for a dream-like afterlife in his final weeks. So even if he may not believe it, he would not have necessarily been disgusted from spiritual ideas.
Mhm, I think that he was not necessarily rejecting of spiritual ideas. I do think he believed them to be a 'waste of time', in essence, because life here on Earth has very little in common with the lofty ideals presented by the more mainstream religions. I think he had a few loose ideas here and there about what he absolutely didn't believe in and what may be plausible instead, but he concerned himself far more with life right here and now. It is interesting that he does visibly make mention of something resembling an afterlife. His longing for it to be real is where you see the boy behind the bravado. The hope that he'd still have a place to go to after this quite sucky life must've sustained him somewhat. I think being confronted with one's own mortality will do that to a guy, you know?

gustopoet wrote:
Excellent, thought-provoking post! I find myself in agreement with much of what you say. The insight you provide into the boys' psychological landscape here and in other posts is very much appreciated. Go back and listen to "Stray Bullet" Eric's self-proclaimed theme-song and what you basically have is "techno-Milton" with KMFDM providing a soundtrack for one of Lucifer's monologues.
Aww, thank you! I do my best with the little we're given to go on. Smile I think 'Stray Bullet' is a very telling theme-song for the kid, isn't it? It is interesting to me that quite a few things in his music taste fall back on concepts you'd find in either earth-rooted spirituality or the spirituality I spoke of earlier in this post that encompasses the shadow work. Even his possession of a Loreena McKennitt album makes sense to me in this light. In my opinion, Eric needed a spirituality that would still keep him as master of his own fate and captain of his own soul. Perhaps even something that would allow him to become 'like god', in a sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Satanic Evil   Satanic Evil Icon_minitimeWed Nov 27, 2013 4:21 pm

thedragonrampant wrote:
In my opinion, Eric needed a spirituality that would still keep him as master of his own fate and captain of his own soul. Perhaps even something that would allow him to become 'like god', in a sense.
I think that was the case for both of the boys. I also think that to the best of their adolescent abilities they lived and died by this desire.
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