Why didn't Dylan just kill himself?

I know a lot of people say NBK was a means to an end for Dylan, that his main goal that day was to finally be free from this world he so hated. I just wonder why it took carrying out a school shooting to be able to do it. I mean, I know shooting yourself is a big leap from thoughts to reality, but so was NBK. He was apparently depressed for years. Why didn't he just off himself way before NBK?

I've been thinking that it says something about his character in the whole scheme of things. I think a lot of people are hesitant to look at Dylan with the same scrutiny as Eric when it comes to them doing the dirty work because he had a lot of issues with himself, but obviously Dylan didn't just want to kill himself even though he could have.

They both had issues with themselves. They both wanted to die. They both hated an overly large portion of humanity. Dylan's the first of the two to even mention a spree killing. I agree that it speaks volumes about his character that he didn't just kill himself but chose to take this many people with him. I do still believe that NBK was 'a means to an end' for him because it was both him leaving this hated world and him doing something grandiose as a final act. I think NBK gave one last impulse of purpose to his life that essentially gave him something to hang onto and pour all his feelings into. And, honestly, I also think the combination of him with Eric was a lethal one. I don't think either one of them would've done this if they'd been on their own. But they were together, and they were similar but different enough to make the plan work between them. The thought of NBK was all they felt they had in those final months of their lives. (I remember I've at least once heard their relationship described as "you kill with me and I die with you", which I feel ambivalent about but is worth a little mention in this respect.)

Nobody in this universe put a gun to Dylan's head and said "go kill all those people", although that's what people like Dave Cullen would like to make us believe. Nobody forced Dylan to do anything that Dylan did not want to do. I think a lot of people miscalculate Dylan because he was the quieter one of the duo. But his rage? His venom? His darkness? Just as big as Eric's. Dylan was invested in NBK all the way from start to finish and it's time that we start attributing at least some of the responsibility for this entire thing to him. It wasn't just about the dying. It was about the killing, too. That's what they both wanted. A big bang of a finale, with lots of people dead and dying, before they left this hellhole of an Earth behind. There is no divide that says Eric was the homicidal maniac and Dylan the suicidal slave. (I'd argue a pretty convincing case for Eric being more homicidal and Dylan more suicidal, though, sure.) If the clear divide between the two was there, we wouldn't be having so many problems trying to figure everything in this case out.

thedragonrampant wrote:

I do still believe that NBK was 'a means to an end' for him because it was both him leaving this hated world and him doing something grandiose as a final act. I think NBK gave one last impulse of purpose to his life that essentially gave him something to hang onto and pour all his feelings into.

That does make a lot of sense. Despite all his apparent self-hatred, he still had that god complex. Maybe he felt that killing himself and only himself would only reflect one side of that attitude; he couldn't be the only one to suffer.

thedragonrampant wrote:

And, honestly, I also think the combination of him with Eric was a lethal one. I don't think either one of them would've done this if they'd been on their own. But they were together, and they were similar but different enough to make the plan work between them.

I agree with you there as well, and that viewpoint, unfortunately, often gets contorted into the Cullen doctrine. I don't want to call it peer pressure because I think that trivializes it, but I think both of the boys used the other to validate their fantasy. In that way, they influenced each other and fed off of each other's rage, and that isn't to say one had more rage than the other. They were both angry and dark enough to do it, and at this point of reflection I think that's all that matters.

thedragonrampant wrote:

They both had issues with themselves. They both wanted to die. They both hated an overly large portion of humanity. Dylan's the first of the two to even mention a spree killing. I agree that it speaks volumes about his character that he didn't just kill himself but chose to take this many people with him. I do still believe that NBK was 'a means to an end' for him because it was both him leaving this hated world and him doing something grandiose as a final act. I think NBK gave one last impulse of purpose to his life that essentially gave him something to hang onto and pour all his feelings into. And, honestly, I also think the combination of him with Eric was a lethal one. I don't think either one of them would've done this if they'd been on their own. But they were together, and they were similar but different enough to make the plan work between them. The thought of NBK was all they felt they had in those final months of their lives. (I remember I've at least once heard their relationship described as "you kill with me and I die with you", which I feel ambivalent about but is worth a little mention in this respect.)

Nobody in this universe put a gun to Dylan's head and said "go kill all those people", although that's what people like Dave Cullen would like to make us believe. Nobody forced Dylan to do anything that Dylan did not want to do. I think a lot of people miscalculate Dylan because he was the quieter one of the duo. But his rage? His venom? His darkness? Just as big as Eric's. Dylan was invested in NBK all the way from start to finish and it's time that we start attributing at least some of the responsibility for this entire thing to him. It wasn't just about the dying. It was about the killing, too. That's what they both wanted. A big bang of a finale, with lots of people dead and dying, before they left this hellhole of an Earth behind. There is no divide that says Eric was the homicidal maniac and Dylan the suicidal slave. (I'd argue a pretty convincing case for Eric being more homicidal and Dylan more suicidal, though, sure.) If the clear divide between the two was there, we wouldn't be having so many problems trying to figure everything in this case out.

What a brilliant post. But, all of your posts are incredibly insightful and enormously intelligent!

I strongly believe that they both wanted to die and to take others with them. They really wanted people to know how hurt they were. Of course I don't agree with their means of displaying that pain, but I genuinely do believe that is what most of this was about at the core; ending their own pain and making sure everyone "heard".

I understand what you mean about the probability of Eric being more homicidal and Dylan being more suicidal, but I think they were both equally suicidal, personally. Eric had to make it about everyone else, because wanting to end his own existence was too out of his own control. It was much too weak, so he had to project all of it onto everyone else. I strongly, strongly believe he'd have stayed alive after doing this if it weren't the case. There was an incredibly deep self hatred within him. The self deprecation, although subtle, speaks volumes, in my opinion.

I've said before (maybe here, but certainly elsewhere) that he hated himself more than he hated everyone else, although there's no doubt that he hated others. Dylan was openly self loathing...or more open about that part of himself than Eric was. What Eric hid and denied, Dylan was open about, and what Dylan hid and denied, Eric was open about. Those two unfortunate halves making a whole led to this catastrophe. The attraction of opposing forces is not always such a positive thing despite it being promoted as such (typically in a romantic context).

Dylan did mention early in his diary the possibility of either killing himself or going on a killing spree (when he would probably be killed). That was an option at first to just commit suicide. I believe when he met Eric and they shared their ideas, the shooting took form and it became the only option.

fatlittleparasite wrote:

That does make a lot of sense. Despite all his apparent self-hatred, he still had that god complex. Maybe he felt that killing himself and only himself would only reflect one side of that attitude; he couldn't be the only one to suffer.

I don't know if that's all there is to it, but it's something that came to mind when I saw your original question. I would say that killing himself wasn't enough for Dylan. He wanted others to suffer as he had suffered, I guess? I think he really needed that dual outlet for his pain. He already took a lot of it out on himself and I think that Eric helped him translate some of it toward taking it out on others.

thedragonrampant wrote:

I agree with you there as well, and that viewpoint, unfortunately, often gets contorted into the Cullen doctrine. I don't want to call it peer pressure because I think that trivializes it, but I think both of the boys used the other to validate their fantasy. In that way, they influenced each other and fed off of each other's rage, and that isn't to say one had more rage than the other. They were both angry and dark enough to do it, and at this point of reflection I think that's all that matters.

Meh, Cullen doctrine makes me so mad I don't even have the proper words for it anymore. I don't think it's peer pressure. Gods, I don't think you could pressure either one of them into anything they didn't want to do. That's why the whole Cullen doctrine sits so badly with me. He's got Dylan being the perfect meek lamb and I'm sitting here thinking there's no chance in hell Eric could boss Dylan into anything. (It's a really hilarious scene in my head, though, I'll give him that much.  Makes me wish I could draw cartoons, haha.)

I think they did use each other as validations. What you've written actually reminds me of the one scene from the Basement Tapes where Eric's gesturing "more rage, keep building it on".. They purposefully egged one another on. Encouraged each other to let the rage and darkness into their systems. In a way, they formed a symbiotic bond with each other.

tfsa47090 wrote:

What a brilliant post. But, all of your posts are incredibly insightful and enormously intelligent!

Aww, thank you.  

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I strongly believe that they both wanted to die and to take others with them. They really wanted people to know how hurt they were. Of course I don't agree with their means of displaying that pain, but I genuinely do believe that is what most of this was about at the core; ending their own pain and making sure everyone "heard".

Yes, I definitely agree with this. Interesting thought that just came to mind: could we also say that they chose this course of action as one last 'fuck you'-sentiment to everyone who didn't listen to them or didn't catch on to what they were doing? I can just hear Eric say "they really brought it on themselves" in that tone of voice that really says "hahaha, you pathetic fools, we pulled the wool over your eyes for years and now you're paying the price". (Or I should simply back away from the boy's journal very.. very.. slowly..  )

Quote :

I understand what you mean about the probability of Eric being more homicidal and Dylan being more suicidal, but I think they were both equally suicidal, personally. Eric had to make it about everyone else, because wanting to end his own existence was too out of his own control. It was much too weak, so he had to project all of it onto everyone else. I strongly, strongly believe he'd have stayed alive after doing this if it weren't the case. There was an incredibly deep self hatred within him. The self deprecation, although subtle, speaks volumes, in my opinion.

I've said before (maybe here, but certainly elsewhere) that he hated himself more than he hated everyone else, although there's no doubt that he hated others. Dylan was openly self loathing...or more open about that part of himself than Eric was. What Eric hid and denied, Dylan was open about, and what Dylan hid and denied, Eric was open about. Those two unfortunate halves making a whole led to this catastrophe. The attraction of opposing forces is not always such a positive thing despite it being promoted as such (typically in a romantic context).

Okay, let me attempt an explanation of what I meant in more detail because I was side-noting it rather than diving into it before..

The assumption I make of Eric being more homicidal and Dylan being more suicidal is based on what I think they felt informed their actions. These were the conscious parts of their selves rather than the subconscious, and I think if you'd asked the two about their initial motivation for the massacre Eric would've come out with something skewing toward the homicidal actions whereas Dylan would've come up with a suicidal ideation. They're the respective parts of the boys that are out in the open and they're the parts that are used by law enforcement (and others  ) to 'help' explain the case. Obviously it's not the full story, but I think that this conscious motivation matters a whole lot in how they viewed themselves and their role in the massacre pre-4/20. (It is one of the reasons why I wonder so much if they were surprised at each other on the day itself. If Eric got a little shell-shocked over Dylan's behaviour, and if Dylan got a little weirded out by Eric's calm quietness. They essentially switched roles and motivations, in my opinion, at least for a moment there.. and I do wonder about their final moments in this respect as well.)

What is very telling for Eric is his diversion paper. (Dylan completely mangled his honesty-wise, which also speaks volumes but is not immediately something for this thread.) You've got Eric admitting to homicidal ideation, but did he mention suicidal ideation? Nope. It's one of the few major warning signs that remains blank. This tells me one thing and one thing only: the boy didn't have a clue. You see him yakking on and on about having self-awareness and being better than everyone else because of it, but I don't think for a minute that he ever sat down with himself and admitted to feeling suicidal. Even in the plans for the massacre, you have him speaking about his own death in terms suggesting suicide by cop or suicide as a means to avoid capture/imprisonment. Nowhere does he ever come out and say "I hate myself and I want to die". The thing Dylan vocalised to the point where I think we all collectively eyerolled at him for a millisecond? It's not to be found in Eric's words in such a blunt manner. At this point, I even doubt that Eric had the self-awareness necessary for him to be able to own up to how he really felt. He partially built up 'Reb' as an outlet for all of his rage and hatred etc (I've mentioned this tidbit of Reb-as-alter-ego in the Dylan-as-an-alcoholic thread) and then he had these little self-deprecating notes that spoke of a hurt he never allowed inside himself. The boy was one tightly-locked box of full control over his thoughts, actions, and emotions. Everything that he didn't know how to handle went into the box and never came back out again. And, you know, everything he couldn't hack was everything to do with sadness and loneliness and hurt and rejection and so on and so forth.

Actually, I'd argue that his case of self-hatred was potentially even more destructive than Dylan's was. I think Dylan had the stronger self-awareness of the duo. I think Dylan knew exactly what he felt, although he certainly didn't know how to properly handle it either, and I think that he was far more capable of vocalising both the self-hatred and the homicidal thoughts than Eric was. In some descriptions of the basement tapes, you've got people saying that Dylan was a surprise because he was so visibly/tangibly enraged.. and you've got the same sort of stuff being said in witness statements and such as well.. Dylan had a perfect hold on his rage and he knew exactly when it was safe to let it out. He had a relatively working outlet for his self-loathing, too. I think speaking with Dylan about his motivations for the massacre would be illuminating, whereas speaking with Eric about it would not necessarily bring more clarity. (Oh dear, did I make Dylan sound like the evil genius? I swear that was not what I intended.  )

thedragonrampant, you have made yet another stunning post, but unfortunately, I have to get going right now. :/

I am quickly going to share this one link, though, regarding Eric and suicide.

No, he never actually wrote out the word suicide regarding himself in or on anything we have access to, but he did circle the option "more than two times" as the answer to the question "Have you had thoughts about not wanting to live (committing suicide)?" on one of his psych evaluation papers.

acolumbinesite.com/reports/harris-violent3.jpg

I brought it up, somewhat haphazardly, in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], and I have still not managed to locate this in the documents, because I am trying too hard and I keep skimming them too quickly, but they are there, as that is where I initially saw his psych evaluation papers years ago.

That said, he did admit it, but very, very "quietly", I suppose you could say.

These can all be found on acolumbinesite, on this particular page in the section March 25, 1998: acolumbinesite.com/event/event1.html


(This is by no means an actual response to your post, but I just wanted to share it before I forgot, especially if I am unable to get back on the forum for long after work.)

thedragonrampant wrote:

I would say that killing himself wasn't enough for Dylan.

That is exactly what I was thinking. Basically that there was more to it than self-hatred.

thedragonrampant wrote:

Gods, I don't think you could pressure either one of them into anything they didn't want to do. That's why the whole Cullen doctrine sits so badly with me. He's got Dylan being the perfect meek lamb and I'm sitting here thinking there's no chance in hell Eric could boss Dylan into anything.

That is ridiculous to imagine. I don't see things happening that way, either. That recent thread about Dylan's little car accident in the school parking lot had an instance of him telling Eric to basically shut up and get in the car when Eric started mouthing off to the girl that hit them.

Oh ye gods, tfsa47090, looks like I missed that one as well. Thanks for pointing it out! Looking through the diversion documents again, I also caught onto "usually" as the answer to "have you ever felt down/depressed?". The one you just mentioned is in there as well almost right below the one that caught my eye. So, hm, there was casual admission of the feeling.. but he was clever enough to wedge the one admissal into the middle of the questionnaire rather than on the separate sheet, so it's easier to miss that one when you're not paying full attention. (Attaboy, haha.) I think it must've felt easier to just circle the thought and then never speak of it again. I'm still curious about his therapy files, especially now that I see this.. I wonder how the therapy was structured and what its focal points really were. It actually claws at my chest to see how honest he was for a change. In a way, these few papers are a better window into Eric's emotional world than his journal is. This wasn't geared toward an audience. This was just him, reaching out.

If you're looking for a massive shortcut to the psych evaluation, look no further: Eric's diversion. Found it on Peter Langman's site. Pages 66 to 70 include the things we just spoke about.

fatlittleparasite wrote:

That is ridiculous to imagine. I don't see things happening that way, either. That recent thread about Dylan's little car accident in the school parking lot had an instance of him telling Eric to basically shut up and get in the car when Eric started mouthing off to the girl that hit them.

Well, at least it's an amusing thought in the middle of all this serious talk. ;) That recent thread is just one of the few instances where you see Dylan growing a pair and telling Eric to go take a hike. I'm currently translating the narrative timeline from Krabbé's book and he mentions the situation around Dylan letting John Savage go as another instance where Eric was clearly not the one in charge. It's absolutely ridiculous to assume that Dylan did Eric's bidding all the time without argument.

thedragonrampant, thank you for pointing Langman's site out to me. There is SO much in all of the documents that things just become an intertwined blur over the years sometimes. I'm glad to see that it is in full, because I was LOSING my mind trying to find the other portions of the psych questionnaire. I hadn't read them in full since probably 2008, honestly.

Great thread here guys, I am new to the forum here and I am really impressed by the quality and insight of the dialogue here, especially as seen in this thread by thedragonrampart and tfsa47090. You bring more clarity and form to my own thoughts as a psychologist on this subject which I have only recently become interested in. Keep up the great writing!

Thank you for the compliment, ThoughtBox. But I think all accolades for writing and expression, including in this thread, should go to thedragonrampant. She is an asset to any forum that she shares her thoughts with, in my opinion. Very brilliant young woman.

All of that said, and it is said with the utmost sincerity, I was looking at old posts of mine from another site, and I found this one post that I thought I could share here, and right now, this thread seems to be the place it would fit best---keeping with the theme of discussion, overall.


I wrote this a few years ago in an arena where lots of young kids (as well as uninformed adults) seem to congregate, so, some of it is addressed with their "views" in mind. I know I have regurgitated some of the same points in the post here on this forum before, too, but this one is from a few years back:




"Everyone knows how open (or, at least with himself…in his private journal) Dylan was with his desire to die, and his immense self loathing. However, I don’t see too much discussion about how much Eric despised himself and wanted to die, too. There was a lot of truth in things he wrote and discussed, and I know overall he meant a lot of it, and I do believe that he did want his final actions to be a “statement”. But, in my personal view, if he really, really just wanted to prove his superiority over everyone by doing what he did, he’d damn well make sure he stayed alive to revel in the “glory” of it afterward. He’d have learned how to cope with prison. I know he’d get his head kicked in a bit, but, give him a few years in the joint and he’d have people believing him and anything he had to say. He’d be stuck in prison, but he’d eventually be alright, considering. He’d be able to give interviews like all of the other killers you’ve seen, he’d get to speak his piece and show no remorse to the world. He’d be able to somehow receive the information about people who worship him and what he did, and suck that attention and “recognition” up, as well.

According to what many people believe about him, (and not just Cullen and people who foolishly buy his story hook, line and sinker, either), they think he was the badass that just died so he didn’t have to go to prison. That’s bullshit. Eric was in a massive internal conflict with himself. Some of it was environmental, some of it was due to upbringing, and other portions of it were his own doing. (Some of it is actually astrological, but I don’t want to get too deep into that right now—-everyone’s astrological makeup is meant to be challenging, but some people can’t handle their “hand they’ve been dealt”…Eric was one of them. So was Dylan…but, it’s different).

Eric didn’t want to show the emotional side of himself, like Dylan did. But, in reality, he was ENORMOUSLY emotional. He had INTENSE emotions. Not just shallow, stupid, superficial emotions. He had very deep, complex emotions. He did not know how to externalize them for a multitude of reasons. Even if he could be somewhat rambunctious and dynamic, he was hiding a lot. It was bottling inside him to the point of explosion…mostly by his choice. He could have learned to work through them. He was highly intelligent, and he could have done so much with his emotions and pain. But, he chose not to.

I think he regretted what he did before he died. I think if Dylan were not on some alternate plane moments before his death, he would have, too. Perhaps he did. If Eric didn’t hate himself, but did fear prison, he’d have let a cop kill him. He grotesquely ripped the top of his own skull off with a shotgun. You’ve all seen the photos, and you say it makes you sad, and even cry. Do you cry because it is an unflinching depiction of brutal self hatred? Because that’s what it is. He hated himself. More than he hated anyone else. He did hate others, and their behaviors, and their mindlessness. But, Eric hated Eric the most. You’ve all seen his journal entries by now, right? The kid could not be stopped. He’d push, pull, sneak, lie, wait patiently, manipulate, —-whatever it took, to get what he wanted. If he wanted to do what he did and be a worshiped idol because of it, he’d have made damn sure he lived to see it after the fact. And, you know he didn’t want any of that. He actually did what he really wanted. He wanted to die.

So while it seems brave, and it seems like the answer, and like it’s the right statement to make to illustrate your pain to the world, and it appears that it is what they did…that is really only a minuscule sliver of what that whole situation was about. It was about self hatred, primarily."

Great post! I think that is precisely why Eric and Dylan both said that "we have to die" in the Basement Tapes. Eric hated himself for so many reasons, not the least of which, I believe, was his perceived unfitness to exist in a world ruled by natural selection. I think he saw himself as weak and defective both physically and mentally (as symbolized early in his life by all his medical issues including the sunken chest defect and his need for a psychiatrist), and decided to deselect himself from existence. Why else the so gruesome suicide? To obliterate that "big head on a small body" that he had been so often teased about. One might argue that he had even more self hatred than Dylan. At least Dylan had the capability to love or at least idealize the concept; Eric could not.
I wish I could see the Basement Tape segment in which Eric is driving alone on a rainy night in his car. He discusses old friends and wanting to see them once more, and at one point, according to the transcript, stops to wipe a tear off his left cheek. This is the only shard of humanity that we can ever see, and yet will never be able to. To know what was going through this mind at that point! I often wonder if this is only just one of the reasons the Basement Tapes will never be seen is that they will so humanize the killers that people might actually think more about how misguided, undeveloped, and troubled the pair really was, instread of just how a psychopath and a depressive ultimately got what they feel they deserved -- an exit from this existence.