Would Eric and Dylan kill their g/f's?

If Eric and Dylan had g/f's at the time of the massacre, do you all think they would've killed them too? I think so, just because they wanted to kill anyone in sight that day.

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IF, just IF Eric and Dylan had been lucky enough to find a girlfriend they actually cared about, then they probably wouldn't kill them. Just my opinion.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IF, just IF Eric and Dylan had been lucky enough to find a girlfriend they actually cared about, then they probably wouldn't kill them. Just my opinion.

I’d say no, but I wonder if they’d try to keep them out of the school?

However since it was a failed bombing I’d have to assume they’d know there was a chance they could die.

Eric had Susan who he may have been able to start a relationship with under different circumstances and he knew she could have been hurt/killed

Dylan is a wild card... I’m not sure if at the end his love was even real and I get the feeling the kid was too far gone

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IF, just IF Eric and Dylan had been lucky enough to find a girlfriend they actually cared about, then they probably wouldn't kill them. Just my opinion.

I doubt they'd kill anyone as they probably wouldve been more happy about their lives nor would they have spent as much time together to really hash out a plan.

Susan came a bit too late.

W.A.R. wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IF, just IF Eric and Dylan had been lucky enough to find a girlfriend they actually cared about, then they probably wouldn't kill them. Just my opinion.

I doubt they'd kill anyone as they probably would be more happy about their lives nor would they have spent as much time together to really hash out a plan.

Susan came a bit too late.

I'm not so sure how much them having gfs would have changed their happiness near the end. It would have likely just added another layer of complications.

NOW if they had possibly found "THE ONE" earlier before everything went completely down hill, then they probably wouldn't have had the time to form a bond and plan the attack. But both E&D clearly needed help for some major issues.

Also I do agree, Susan was just to late to the show to make a difference.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

W.A.R. wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IF, just IF Eric and Dylan had been lucky enough to find a girlfriend they actually cared about, then they probably wouldn't kill them. Just my opinion.

I doubt they'd kill anyone as they probably would be more happy about their lives nor would they have spent as much time together to really hash out a plan.

Susan came a bit too late.

I'm not so sure how much them having gfs would have changed their happiness near the end. It would have likely just added another layer of complications.

NOW if they had possibly found "THE ONE" earlier before everything went completely down hill, then they probably wouldn't have had the time to form a bond and plan the attack.  But both E&D clearly needed help for some major issues.

Also I do agree, Susan was just to late to the show to make a difference.

Eric even admits that in his goodbye video “under different circumstances things could have been different”

Dylan I think started to battle with his depression as early as aged 15. I think a breakup for Dylan would have been disastrous as he deteriorated.

I don’t like thinking so negative about Dylan and I’m not saying he was a lost cause but I think in some ways Eric would have been easier to save

W.A.R. wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IF, just IF Eric and Dylan had been lucky enough to find a girlfriend they actually cared about, then they probably wouldn't kill them. Just my opinion.

I doubt they'd kill anyone as they probably wouldve been more happy about their lives nor would they have spent as much time together to really hash out a plan.

Susan came a bit too late.

I think the same. Maybe it didn't have to be "the" one, but just caring about someone and being loved by someone at a time when they felt very bad could have made them feel more confident and less desperate. At least they would have had something to rely on, something good in their life.

It is maybe a little cliché but girls seem to be usually more affectionate, and I think it could have been good for Eric and Dylan to feel that they had somebody to talk to (at least if Eric was not too proud to talk about his feelings and weaknesses).

But as Screamingophelia wrote, Dylan suffered from depression since a rather young age, so I don't think love was enough to make him happy. Maybe love was enough to prevent him from becoming a killer, but still I think he could have grown a very depressed and unhappy man, even with a wife and children.

Neah wrote:

W.A.R. wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IF, just IF Eric and Dylan had been lucky enough to find a girlfriend they actually cared about, then they probably wouldn't kill them. Just my opinion.

I doubt they'd kill anyone as they probably wouldve been more happy about their lives nor would they have spent as much time together to really hash out a plan.

Susan came a bit too late.

I think the same. Maybe it didn't have to be "the" one, but just caring about someone and being loved by someone at a time when they felt very bad could have made them feel more confident and less desperate. At least they would have had something to rely on, something good in their life.

It is maybe a little cliché but girls seem to be usually more affectionate, and I think it could have been good for Eric and Dylan to feel that they had somebody to talk to (at least if Eric was not too proud to talk about his feelings and weaknesses).

But as Screamingophelia wrote, Dylan suffered from depression since a rather young age, so I don't think love was enough to make him happy. Maybe love was enough to prevent him from becoming a killer, but still I think he could have grown a very depressed and unhappy man, even with a wife and children.

Dylan was on his way too of maybe dealing with alcoholism too. With help and medication he would have thrived I bet but untreated, Dylan going to college may have been disastrous even with love.

Dylan had a prom date, but Eric didn't? what made Eric scare girls?

bradt93 wrote:

Dylan had a prom date, but Eric didn't? what made Eric scare girls?

I always thought it was a mixture of a couple of things. One, the way he acts when he breaks up with a girl (Tiffany and Sasha to name two) threats, fake suicides etc.. people talk and it may probably be intimidating for girls to want to date someone that may be so volatile.

Also Eric seemed to be doing the spaghetti method of asking a ton of girls out. Who wants to feel like they are someones 10th choice. Then awkwardly sitting their while your friend asks a girl if she would like to go to prom with you... I may think that was a joke and I would wonder why he couldn't ask me out himself.

In comparison to the dudes I have seen that have gone to that school (I am the same age as E and D would have been now) they were good looking kids. They were smart but where they lived, they didn't really fit for some reason AND they started changing in their junior years. Even Eric, became angrier and more sarcastic.

Dylan didn't want to go to prom anyway. It took Robyn 3 hours to convince him to go and he just did it to make her happy and probably as a solid of buying them 3 guns. Dylan knew full well Robyn was smitten with him. I think Dylan was easier to get along with towards the end. He even had a date with Kristen. Dylan hid his darkness and rage and only let it out on 4/20. Eric could flip the switch at any moment.

What 16 year old girl wants to a boy who she didn't end up wanting to date coming to her house at 3 am with a busy box, toilet paper and eggs? I don't think some girls felt comfortable giving him a chance so they just said no.

Screamingophelia wrote:

bradt93 wrote:

Dylan had a prom date, but Eric didn't? what made Eric scare girls?

I always thought it was a mixture of a couple of things. One, the way he acts when he breaks up with a girl (Tiffany and Sasha to name two) threats, fake suicides etc.. people talk and it may probably be intimidating for girls to want to date someone that may be so volatile.

Also Eric seemed to be doing the spaghetti method of asking a ton of girls out. Who wants to feel like they are someones 10th choice. Then awkwardly sitting their while your friend asks a girl if she would like to go to prom with you... I may think that was a joke and I would wonder why he couldn't ask me out himself.

In comparison to the dudes I have seen that have gone to that school (I am the same age as E and D would have been now) they were good looking kids. They were smart but where they lived, they didn't really fit for some reason AND they started changing in their junior years. Even Eric, became angrier and more sarcastic.

Dylan didn't want to go to prom anyway. It took Robyn 3 hours to convince him to go and he just did it to make her happy and probably as a solid of buying them 3 guns. Dylan knew full well Robyn was smitten with him. I think Dylan was easier to get along with towards the end. He even had a date with Kristen. Dylan hid his darkness and rage and only let it out on 4/20. Eric could flip the switch at any moment.

What 16 year old girl wants to a boy who she didn't end up wanting to date coming to her house at 3 am with a busy box, toilet paper and eggs? I don't think some girls felt comfortable giving him a chance so they just said no.

I'm not gay, but I think Eric was the better looking one, it's ashame he didn't see how his attitude scared some women off. Have you noticed most of these shooters aren't bad looking guys, but they think are worthless in their minds?

Elliot Rodger thought every woman hated him, but he never even approached them.

Dylan thought that too. He thought every girl hated him.

It is interesting the way we perceive ourselves vs how other perceive us.

I'm not sure how much I believe him asking so many girls out (like Marla and the girl at the mall)

Dylan was handsome but towards the end he just didn't care, he lost too much weight, he didn't care anymore. So he presented himself in a way that said "stay away from me" but in the Blackjack and RNN video he was very handsome.

I believe if either of the boys would have had smex, the massacre would never have happened.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I don’t like thinking so negative about Dylan and I’m not saying he was a lost cause  but I think in some ways Eric would have been easier to save

I think I agree with you on this. Dylan was a big black hole, getting a girlfriend only means she gets sucked into the horrible vortex of his broken mind.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IF, just IF Eric and Dylan had been lucky enough to find a girlfriend they actually cared about, then they probably wouldn't kill them. Just my opinion.

I’d say no, but I wonder if they’d try to keep them out of the school?

However since it was a failed bombing I’d have to assume they’d know there was a chance they could die.

Eric had Susan who he may have been able to start a relationship with under different circumstances and he knew she could have been hurt/killed

Dylan is a wild card... I’m not sure if at the end his love was even real and I get the feeling the kid was too far gone

Eric seemed to be aware of Susan going for lunch and then returning at around 11:45, which might've soothed his mind a little bit. But I doubt that, they were comfortable with Nate and Chris dying so I doubt he wasn't the same when it came to Susan

I think they were more than capable of blowing up the school and taking a risk that their friends could be inside. They knew when specific people go out to lunch on most days and they also knew several people might skip school on 4/20.

But there was no guarantee. They didn't bother to make sure, there was a chance their closest fgriends would be killed. On the basement tapes they are alledged to acknowledge just that.

JayT wrote:

I believe if either of the boys would have had smex, the massacre would never have happened.

Someone needs to alert the FBI's BAU about this "smex" thing. If it is as powerful as you seem to think it is, we could potentially save many lives.

sscc wrote:

JayT wrote:

I believe if either of the boys would have had smex, the massacre would never have happened.

Someone needs to alert the FBI's BAU about this "smex" thing. If it is as powerful as you seem to think it is, we could potentially save many lives.

LOL!   I agree here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  It always amazes me the amount of people who think a simple piece of ass would have been a cure all. As if a vagina is some magical thing.

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I don’t like thinking so negative about Dylan and I’m not saying he was a lost cause  but I think in some ways Eric would have been easier to save

I think I agree with you on this. Dylan was a big black hole, getting a girlfriend only means she gets sucked into the horrible vortex of his broken mind.

I agree as well. I have always thought Dylan was more gone then Eric ever dared to be. Dylan needed intensive help, possibly even some time spent in a treatment center. His thought process was so mixed up and fractured. But with the right kind of help and even the right combo of meds, he could have been OK in the long run.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

sscc wrote:

JayT wrote:

I believe if either of the boys would have had smex, the massacre would never have happened.

Someone needs to alert the FBI's BAU about this "smex" thing. If it is as powerful as you seem to think it is, we could potentially save many lives.

LOL!   I agree here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  It always amazes me the amount of people who think a simple piece of ass would have been a cure all. As if a vagina is some magical thing.

As researchers it is our duty to let ALL authorities know

I wish it was that simple...

A few shooters were NOT in fact virgins ( Paddock and I think Holmes)

23september wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Well I'm going to go out on a limb and say that IF, just IF Eric and Dylan had been lucky enough to find a girlfriend they actually cared about, then they probably wouldn't kill them. Just my opinion.

I’d say no, but I wonder if they’d try to keep them out of the school?

However since it was a failed bombing I’d have to assume they’d know there was a chance they could die.

Eric had Susan who he may have been able to start a relationship with under different circumstances and he knew she could have been hurt/killed

Dylan is a wild card... I’m not sure if at the end his love was even real and I get the feeling the kid was too far gone

Eric seemed to be aware of Susan going for lunch and then returning at around 11:45, which might've soothed his mind a little bit. But I doubt that, they were comfortable with Nate and Chris dying so I doubt he wasn't the same when it came to Susan

I think at the end they thought it was a war and sometimes innocent or good people got killed.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I don’t like thinking so negative about Dylan and I’m not saying he was a lost cause  but I think in some ways Eric would have been easier to save

I think I agree with you on this. Dylan was a big black hole, getting a girlfriend only means she gets sucked into the horrible vortex of his broken mind.

I agree as well. I have always thought Dylan was more gone then Eric ever dared to be. Dylan needed intensive help, possibly even some time spent in a treatment center. His thought process was so mixed up and fractured. But with the right kind of help and even the right combo of meds, he could have been OK in the long run.

I do sometimes wonder if even having a friendship with Dylan was intense or if he hid it really well. I agree with both of you too because I think if Dylan had a girlfriend he would feel at ease to be himself and I think he would cling to her hard and rely on her too much to "save" him

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

sscc wrote:

JayT wrote:

I believe if either of the boys would have had smex, the massacre would never have happened.

Someone needs to alert the FBI's BAU about this "smex" thing. If it is as powerful as you seem to think it is, we could potentially save many lives.

LOL!   I agree here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  It always amazes me the amount of people who think a simple piece of ass would have been a cure all. As if a vagina is some magical thing.

As researchers it is our duty to let ALL authorities know

I wish it was that simple...

A few shooters were NOT in fact virgins ( Paddock and I think Holmes)

Cruz wasn't a virgin either.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

sscc wrote:

JayT wrote:

I believe if either of the boys would have had smex, the massacre would never have happened.

Someone needs to alert the FBI's BAU about this "smex" thing. If it is as powerful as you seem to think it is, we could potentially save many lives.

LOL!   I agree here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  It always amazes me the amount of people who think a simple piece of ass would have been a cure all. As if a vagina is some magical thing.

As researchers it is our duty to let ALL authorities know

I wish it was that simple...

A few shooters were NOT in fact virgins ( Paddock and I think Holmes)

Cruz wasn't a virgin either.

Huh! I did not know that.

I don't think Devin Kelley was either... Charles Whitman was married...

So I think the virgin rage theory has been debunked in this very thread even

In Erics name poem he describes himself as

Enticing
Ready to Help
Intriguing
Careful

Sounds like a NICE GUY RIGHT? Well he did go with that girl to fix her windshield.. maybe he was trying.

I find it funny and also interesting that he didn't choose words like intelligent, charismatic, Rebellious etc. although he uses some of those in his last name.

Any guy who would describe themselves as enticing or intriguing would make me uncomfortable, unless they are obviously joking, then I would probably love it.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Cruz wasn't a virgin either.

I think people overestimate the impact of "being a virgin" and underestimate the impact of "having no decent love life whatsoever".

Cho was not a virgin. Little good did that do for him.

munchkinphone wrote:

In Erics name poem he describes himself as

Enticing
Ready to Help
Intriguing
Careful

Sounds like a NICE GUY RIGHT? Well he did go with that girl to fix her windshield.. maybe he was trying.

I find it funny and also interesting that he didn't choose words like intelligent, charismatic, Rebellious etc. although he uses some of those in his last name.

Any guy who would describe themselves as enticing or intriguing would make me uncomfortable, unless they are obviously joking, then I would probably love it.

I’m not sure....

He may have been being funny and not taking it seriously.

There seemed to be two sides of Eric depending on if he liked you.

I don’t know if he was doing anything intrinsically wrong or if it was just that he wasn’t meeting the right girls. I think that was Dylan’s issue on top of his shyness. I think if he got some help and he went out to Arizona or maybe eve California he would have gotten a lot of interest from women.

Was it Robyn or Alex Marsh who said if they liked you they were the sweetest guys in the world but if they didn’t, watch out.

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Cruz wasn't a virgin either.

I think people overestimate the impact of "being a virgin" and underestimate the impact of "having no decent love life whatsoever".

Cho was not a virgin. Little good did that do for him.

Agreed.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Cruz wasn't a virgin either.

I think people overestimate the impact of "being a virgin" and underestimate the impact of "having no decent love life whatsoever".

Cho was not a virgin. Little good did that do for him.

Agreed.

Richard Durn wasn't a virgin either, but he complained about not having sex for years.

I also think people overestimate the impact of not having sex. But maybe if some shooters seem to care so much about it, it is probably because of the symbolism in sexual relationship: love, success, social life, self confidence, trust, maybe even in some cases masculinity...

Also maybe it is because people overestimate the impact of being a virgin that virgins think it is a failure to be a virgin.

Yeah, probably. Eric did say things like that if his plans were discovered, his murder spree would begin. So, hell, Dylan's mom said she would have tackled him that morning and then interrogated him or 'talk' or something if she knew what she knew now. I wonder if Dylan would have stabbed her.

cakeman wrote:

Yeah, probably. Eric did say things like that if his plans were discovered, his murder spree would begin. So, hell, Dylan's mom said she would have tackled him that morning and then interrogated him or 'talk' or something if she knew what she knew now. I wonder if Dylan would have stabbed her.

Not Sure that he would’ve been able to stab her but I bet he would be able to subdue her at least push her out of the way and get into his car . However I think if it was his dad he wouldn’t be able to push him away his dad was a pretty big guy

Did the Klebolds sell that house or do they still live there?

Rumor has it that Tom still lives there and Sue still lives in the Denver area.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

sscc wrote:

JayT wrote:

I believe if either of the boys would have had smex, the massacre would never have happened.

Someone needs to alert the FBI's BAU about this "smex" thing. If it is as powerful as you seem to think it is, we could potentially save many lives.

LOL!   I agree here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  It always amazes me the amount of people who think a simple piece of ass would have been a cure all. As if a vagina is some magical thing.

You mean it’s not ?!

Well, I mean who doesn't like or want sex? Of course it might be different for both men and women.

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Cruz wasn't a virgin either.

I think people overestimate the impact of "being a virgin" and underestimate the impact of "having no decent love life whatsoever".

Cho was not a virgin. Little good did that do for him.

What? Cho was a virgin.

JayT wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

sscc wrote:

JayT wrote:

I believe if either of the boys would have had smex, the massacre would never have happened.

Someone needs to alert the FBI's BAU about this "smex" thing. If it is as powerful as you seem to think it is, we could potentially save many lives.

LOL!   I agree here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  It always amazes me the amount of people who think a simple piece of ass would have been a cure all. As if a vagina is some magical thing.

You mean it’s not ?!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   Sadly no it's not. I happen to own one, and I can attest to the fact that there is simply nothing magical about it. No rainbows shooting out, no puffs of glitter, etc.

Hi, I'm new.

However, I think that at least for Dylan it could have made him reconsider. As long as he'd look at the world through rose-tinted glasses. I mostly think that because of how obsessed he seemed with love in some of his diary entries... I also noticed it's a common pattern among lonely & unstable people to get very invested in relationships. It often makes them feel fulfilled when that part of their life goes well- for a moment. Still their shallow stability only lasts for a short while. I could even imagine that, if he got deeply involved with someone and they disappointed him, his anger would have shifted towards that person. Just a bit of speculation but I could imagine that. He'd get very focused on his love for a while and feel better- and if it didn't work out, or heck even if he'd just feel a mild disappointment, he'd end up raging against them. Maybe leading him to get even more out of some act like the shooting in hope to hurt them. Because I also suspect the suicidal part was the most important aspect. So his anger might have shifted towards something else.

After the lovey-dovey phase wears off I'd think he'd treat them like some friend though. And we know they didn't care if their friends died. No idea about Eric. But again, people with certain mindsets tend to get invested in stuff like that. Well it's all just speculation anyway.

Screamingophelia wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Yeah, probably. Eric did say things like that if his plans were discovered, his murder spree would begin. So, hell, Dylan's mom said she would have tackled him that morning and then interrogated him or 'talk' or something if she knew what she knew now. I wonder if Dylan would have stabbed her.

Not Sure that he would’ve been able to stab her but I bet he would be able to subdue her at least push her out of the way and get into his car . However I think if it was his dad he wouldn’t  be able to push him away his dad was a pretty big guy

Interesting about his dad, for given the exposure he seems more of an enigma like Eric's parents than he does a real person like Dylan and his mother.

In this scenario, she knows the plan, so if he just pushes her away, it's a matter of time before she calls the police. I am not sure he would have been able to stab her either. Obviously, they never stabbed anyone or themselves during the massacre, and parents are another can of worms. But they were never tackled either, and I wonder if that is the kind of scenario which would have brought the knives out. What is he going to do, tie his parents up and cut the phone line? Even if he were prepared to shoot them, he probably wasn't 'geared up' yet.

Quite curious what Eric had in mind when he said that if the plans are discovered, the murder spree begins. He could have meant if somebody at school uncovered the plan, and then perhaps things more or less happen the same way but at an earlier date. But, surely the weapons were brought only on that day, and how would the school find out? That makes me think he meant if the plans were discovered at home. If so, they were probably prepared to kill their parents, and that is possibly small fry compared to a girlfriend.

Though to actually respond to the OP (oops), yeah, incel rage was a part of it, I'd say more than bullying, and one is correct to say losing virginity doesn't bring one a steady love life. And as depressed as they were, a break up would only make it worse. So, like they say, if they found 'the one' then yeah probably no massacre. Just 'a gf' though, if she found the plans for the massacre, they may have shot her right there. Not to mention if she just happened to be in the cafeteria.

Also I think by some measure - Brooks had to say they had "girlfriends" not girlfriends, which is more than others can say, Susan was Eric's gf and Robyn Dylan's gf, and they would have shrugged their shoulders if either died.

QuestionMark wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Cruz wasn't a virgin either.

I think people overestimate the impact of "being a virgin" and underestimate the impact of "having no decent love life whatsoever".

Cho was not a virgin. Little good did that do for him.

What? Cho was a virgin.

I am sure I remember that he used the services of prostitutes. Of course nobody revealed any intimate details and one escort simply reported dancing for him and then going awya as he didn't seem to have enough money and was pushy.

Still, I think that if he was meeting escorts in college, its likely at least a few encounters ended with sex if he had the cash. I don't think this mattered much for his mental state and the reasons behind the attack though.

cakeman wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Yeah, probably. Eric did say things like that if his plans were discovered, his murder spree would begin. So, hell, Dylan's mom said she would have tackled him that morning and then interrogated him or 'talk' or something if she knew what she knew now. I wonder if Dylan would have stabbed her.

Not Sure that he would’ve been able to stab her but I bet he would be able to subdue her at least push her out of the way and get into his car . However I think if it was his dad he wouldn’t  be able to push him away his dad was a pretty big guy

Interesting about his dad, for given the exposure he seems more of an enigma like Eric's parents than he does a real person like Dylan and his mother.

In this scenario, she knows the plan, so if he just pushes her away, it's a matter of time before she calls the police. I am not sure he would have been able to stab her either. Obviously, they never stabbed anyone or themselves during the massacre, and parents are another can of worms. But they were never tackled either, and I wonder if that is the kind of scenario which would have brought the knives out. What is he going to do, tie his parents up and cut the phone line? Even if he were prepared to shoot them, he probably wasn't 'geared up' yet.

Quite curious what Eric had in mind when he said that if the plans are discovered, the murder spree begins. He could have meant if somebody at school uncovered the plan, and then perhaps things more or less happen the same way but at an earlier date. But, surely the weapons were brought only on that day, and how would the school find out? That makes me think he meant if the plans were discovered at home. If so, they were probably prepared to kill their parents, and that is possibly small fry compared to a girlfriend.

Though to actually respond to the OP (oops), yeah, incel rage was a part of it, I'd say more than bullying, and one is correct to say losing virginity doesn't bring one a steady love life. And as depressed as they were, a break up would only make it worse. So, like they say, if they found 'the one' then yeah probably no massacre. Just 'a gf' though, if she found the plans for the massacre, they may have shot her right there. Not to mention if she just happened to be in the cafeteria.

Also I think by some measure - Brooks had to say they had "girlfriends" not girlfriends, which is more than others can say, Susan was Eric's gf and Robyn Dylan's gf, and they would have shrugged their shoulders if either died.

I disagree. Incel is a new thing and I don't think they, especially Dylan, committed the massacre because they could not get laid.

I get really irritated at this because you are also putting a lot of onus on the girls in this. Saying "hey girls, wanna stop a school shooter, you know what to do!"

We also went over a myriad of school/mass shooters who had sex and still committed massacres.

They were angry at society, there was mental illness, bullying... it was the times and if you weren't a teen in the late 90's in suburban America you may not get it and that's fine.. but I was and I get the atmosphere we were living in. Someone like Eric was growing up with a military father like Wayne, Kevin was a golden boy and he had OCD issues, health issues and was smaller than them both. I get that too. I had a lot of health issues growing up and people do treat you differently.

So no, it is not as simplistic as bullying or not getting laid. A lot of kids in HS are not having sex and that is okay.

Screamingophelia wrote:

They were angry at society, there was mental illness, bullying... it was the times and if you weren't a teen in the late 90's in suburban America you may not get it and that's fine.. but I was and I get the atmosphere we were living in.

I often read that on this forum, but I wasn't a teen in the late 90s so I don't understand what was that special back then, especially since I have the impression (probably wrong) that things have become even worse.

t wasn't even that back then was worse. It was a lot of kids feeling trapped and stuck and wanting more and if you were the least bit different you were tortured.. I am sometimes surprised the interest has lasted this long. After my 15 year or so hiatus from Columbine (I was a researcher since day 1. Founded a few things too LOL) I took a peak into it again and was surprised that these gals who were like 2 when it happened were still like "Eric is cute!" etc..

No one really cared about your feelings or opinions, you had to brush it off. In some ways it is easier for kids. Granted you have ostracized troubled kids falling through the cracks (Nikolas Cruz) but for the most part if you were kids like Eric and Dylan with parents who had dinner on the table, taught you manners and didn't beat you, you should be a shining example. There was no way THEY could have problems. I think there has also been talk about Dylan and his giftedness. That comes with a whole slew of pressure and I don't know how anyone can read Dylan's journals and say he was not troubled

. Then you have a troubled kid like Eric and with the culture of Columbine at the time and the rejection, bullying, anger, boredom... it becomes a powder keg. It was the first time we also felt unsafe. If you were a teenager coming home from school on 4/20. I remember it like it was yesterday, my mom was making dinner and she had the news on. She told me two men had taken a school hostage in black masks and swatzikas, I watched Patrick Ireland fall out of the window and I was in tears. Then they showed Eric and Dylan's pictures on the screen and I was dumbfounded, I told my mom I don't think you're right, these are regular kids. It scared me having empathy for two people who killed. I had never felt that before. I was raised very much like Dylan in a place like Littleton

Going back to school the next day was hard, you felt scared and most of us in suburban areas didn't feel scared of anything. We rode our bikes all day until the street lights came on. Eric and Dylan showed us how fragile our existences can be. It affected me more than 9/11 oddly enough. I used to live in NYC and would go down the Chambers street for work and I wouldn't really think about it, but I go by Clement Park today and I'm in tears.

Screamingophelia wrote:

It was the first time we also felt unsafe. If you were a teenager coming home from school on 4/20. I remember it like it was yesterday, my mom was making dinner and she had the news on. She told me two men had taken a school hostage in black masks and swatzikas, I watched Patrick Ireland fall out of the window and I was in tears. Then they showed Eric and Dylan's pictures on the screen and I was dumbfounded, I told my mom I don't think you're right, these are regular kids. It scared me having empathy for two people who killed. I had never felt that before. I was raised very much like Dylan in a place like Littleton

I understand better, and I can imagine it must have been very weird and people may have become a little paranoid. I mean, obviously for adults because since it was the beginning of a sad phenomenon they could think "Kids can do that. Young people, teenagers can kill. Our son can fool us and murder people" And for teenagers themselves of course, because it could be your classmate, your friend, your neighbor... Violence is much more scary when it's not done by the typical offenders, when it's not only in sensitive areas. And also although it probably started before, maybe at least in the 80s, maybe the generation and cultural gap between parents and the children was very large which increased the feeling that you don't really know your own child (for example violence in the movies and the video games, the music...)

Neah wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

It was the first time we also felt unsafe. If you were a teenager coming home from school on 4/20. I remember it like it was yesterday, my mom was making dinner and she had the news on. She told me two men had taken a school hostage in black masks and swatzikas, I watched Patrick Ireland fall out of the window and I was in tears. Then they showed Eric and Dylan's pictures on the screen and I was dumbfounded, I told my mom I don't think you're right, these are regular kids. It scared me having empathy for two people who killed. I had never felt that before. I was raised very much like Dylan in a place like Littleton

I understand better, and I can imagine it must have been very weird and people may have become a little paranoid. I mean, obviously for adults because since it was the beginning of a sad phenomenon they could think "Kids can do that. Young people, teenagers can kill. Our son can fool us and murder people" And for teenagers themselves of course, because it could be your classmate, your friend, your neighbor... Violence is much more scary when it's not done by the typical offenders, when it's not only in sensitive areas. And also although it probably started before, maybe at least in the 80s, maybe the generation and cultural gap between parents and the children was very large which increased the feeling that you don't really know your own child (for example violence in the movies and the video games, the music...)

You're exactly right. My cousins went to a school closer to me, it had a great theatre program that I really wanted to be a part of but it was also not considered safe. There were a LOT of gangs and violence, there were police presence every day and my parents said I had to be bused to the safer more academically excellent school, but a shooting like Columbine didn't happen in a school like my cousins, it happened in a school like mine....by kids who looked like me and were part of similar clubs etc... terrifying.

Screamingophelia wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Yeah, probably. Eric did say things like that if his plans were discovered, his murder spree would begin. So, hell, Dylan's mom said she would have tackled him that morning and then interrogated him or 'talk' or something if she knew what she knew now. I wonder if Dylan would have stabbed her.

Not Sure that he would’ve been able to stab her but I bet he would be able to subdue her at least push her out of the way and get into his car . However I think if it was his dad he wouldn’t  be able to push him away his dad was a pretty big guy

Interesting about his dad, for given the exposure he seems more of an enigma like Eric's parents than he does a real person like Dylan and his mother.

In this scenario, she knows the plan, so if he just pushes her away, it's a matter of time before she calls the police. I am not sure he would have been able to stab her either. Obviously, they never stabbed anyone or themselves during the massacre, and parents are another can of worms. But they were never tackled either, and I wonder if that is the kind of scenario which would have brought the knives out. What is he going to do, tie his parents up and cut the phone line? Even if he were prepared to shoot them, he probably wasn't 'geared up' yet.

Quite curious what Eric had in mind when he said that if the plans are discovered, the murder spree begins. He could have meant if somebody at school uncovered the plan, and then perhaps things more or less happen the same way but at an earlier date. But, surely the weapons were brought only on that day, and how would the school find out? That makes me think he meant if the plans were discovered at home. If so, they were probably prepared to kill their parents, and that is possibly small fry compared to a girlfriend.

Though to actually respond to the OP (oops), yeah, incel rage was a part of it, I'd say more than bullying, and one is correct to say losing virginity doesn't bring one a steady love life. And as depressed as they were, a break up would only make it worse. So, like they say, if they found 'the one' then yeah probably no massacre. Just 'a gf' though, if she found the plans for the massacre, they may have shot her right there. Not to mention if she just happened to be in the cafeteria.

Also I think by some measure - Brooks had to say they had "girlfriends" not girlfriends, which is more than others can say, Susan was Eric's gf and Robyn Dylan's gf, and they would have shrugged their shoulders if either died.

I disagree. Incel is a new thing and I don't think they, especially Dylan, committed the massacre because they could not get laid.

I get really irritated at this because you are also putting a lot of onus on the girls in this. Saying "hey girls, wanna stop a school shooter, you know what to do!"

We also went over a myriad of school/mass shooters who had sex and still committed massacres.

They were angry at society, there was mental illness, bullying... it was the times and if you weren't a teen in the late 90's in suburban America you may not get it and that's fine.. but I was and I get the atmosphere we were living in. Someone like Eric was growing up with a military father like Wayne, Kevin was a golden boy and he had OCD issues, health issues and was smaller than them both. I get that too. I had a lot of health issues growing up and people do treat you differently.

So no, it is not as simplistic as bullying or not getting laid. A lot of kids in HS are not having sex and that is okay.

The term is new, not the idea. It seems to me straightforward in his writing that Dylan felt no hope because he felt he'd never find love.  As incels are apt to say, it's not "tfw no sex", it's "tfw no gf". I don't think Brooks pointed out that they died virgins for no reason, and don't think the significance of that is about merely 'getting laid'.

"I get really irritated at this because you are also putting a lot of onus on the girls in this." Seems like an appeal to consequences. Yeah, it means the sexual revolution has a role in this, leaving low status men out of the market for women. Elliott Rodger is exhibit a. That the middle east has harems, leaving low status men out of luck and hopeless, is one reason given for why suicide attacks are more of an Arab thing.

"We also went over a myriad of school/mass shooters who had sex and still committed massacres." Well, I'm not talking about them, and it seems to me there are several attacking women directly. Rodger, Sodini, Lepine, Hennard, et al.

I agree it's not as simplistic as bullying or "not getting laid", but I think the feeling of failure with women is a bigger factor than bullying for their anger at society.

Sabratha wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Cruz wasn't a virgin either.

I think people overestimate the impact of "being a virgin" and underestimate the impact of "having no decent love life whatsoever".

Cho was not a virgin. Little good did that do for him.

What? Cho was a virgin.

I am sure I remember that he used the services of prostitutes. Of course nobody revealed any intimate details and one escort simply reported dancing for him and then going awya as he didn't seem to have enough money and was pushy.

Still, I think that if he was meeting escorts in college, its likely at least a few encounters ended with sex if he had the cash. I don't think this mattered much for his mental state and the reasons behind the attack though.

that was james holmes, not cho

cakeman wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Yeah, probably. Eric did say things like that if his plans were discovered, his murder spree would begin. So, hell, Dylan's mom said she would have tackled him that morning and then interrogated him or 'talk' or something if she knew what she knew now. I wonder if Dylan would have stabbed her.

Not Sure that he would’ve been able to stab her but I bet he would be able to subdue her at least push her out of the way and get into his car . However I think if it was his dad he wouldn’t  be able to push him away his dad was a pretty big guy

Interesting about his dad, for given the exposure he seems more of an enigma like Eric's parents than he does a real person like Dylan and his mother.

In this scenario, she knows the plan, so if he just pushes her away, it's a matter of time before she calls the police. I am not sure he would have been able to stab her either. Obviously, they never stabbed anyone or themselves during the massacre, and parents are another can of worms. But they were never tackled either, and I wonder if that is the kind of scenario which would have brought the knives out. What is he going to do, tie his parents up and cut the phone line? Even if he were prepared to shoot them, he probably wasn't 'geared up' yet.

Quite curious what Eric had in mind when he said that if the plans are discovered, the murder spree begins. He could have meant if somebody at school uncovered the plan, and then perhaps things more or less happen the same way but at an earlier date. But, surely the weapons were brought only on that day, and how would the school find out? That makes me think he meant if the plans were discovered at home. If so, they were probably prepared to kill their parents, and that is possibly small fry compared to a girlfriend.

Though to actually respond to the OP (oops), yeah, incel rage was a part of it, I'd say more than bullying, and one is correct to say losing virginity doesn't bring one a steady love life. And as depressed as they were, a break up would only make it worse. So, like they say, if they found 'the one' then yeah probably no massacre. Just 'a gf' though, if she found the plans for the massacre, they may have shot her right there. Not to mention if she just happened to be in the cafeteria.

Also I think by some measure - Brooks had to say they had "girlfriends" not girlfriends, which is more than others can say, Susan was Eric's gf and Robyn Dylan's gf, and they would have shrugged their shoulders if either died.

I disagree. Incel is a new thing and I don't think they, especially Dylan, committed the massacre because they could not get laid.

I get really irritated at this because you are also putting a lot of onus on the girls in this. Saying "hey girls, wanna stop a school shooter, you know what to do!"

We also went over a myriad of school/mass shooters who had sex and still committed massacres.

They were angry at society, there was mental illness, bullying... it was the times and if you weren't a teen in the late 90's in suburban America you may not get it and that's fine.. but I was and I get the atmosphere we were living in. Someone like Eric was growing up with a military father like Wayne, Kevin was a golden boy and he had OCD issues, health issues and was smaller than them both. I get that too. I had a lot of health issues growing up and people do treat you differently.

So no, it is not as simplistic as bullying or not getting laid. A lot of kids in HS are not having sex and that is okay.

The term is new, not the idea. It seems to me straightforward in his writing that Dylan felt no hope because he felt he'd never find love.  As incels are apt to say, it's not "tfw no sex", it's "tfw no gf". I don't think Brooks pointed out that they died virgins for no reason, and don't think the significance of that is about merely 'getting laid'.

"I get really irritated at this because you are also putting a lot of onus on the girls in this." Seems like an appeal to consequences. Yeah, it means the sexual revolution has a role in this, leaving low status men out of the market for women. Elliott Rodger is exhibit a. That the middle east has harems, leaving low status men out of luck and hopeless, is one reason given for why suicide attacks are more of an Arab thing.

"We also went over a myriad of school/mass shooters who had sex and still committed massacres." Well, I'm not talking about them, and it seems to me there are several attacking women directly. Rodger, Sodini, Lepine, Hennard, et al.

I agree it's not as simplistic as bullying or "not getting laid", but I think the feeling of failure with women is a bigger factor than bullying for their anger at society.

Weren't Robyn and Susan their g/fs though?

bradt93 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Yeah, probably. Eric did say things like that if his plans were discovered, his murder spree would begin. So, hell, Dylan's mom said she would have tackled him that morning and then interrogated him or 'talk' or something if she knew what she knew now. I wonder if Dylan would have stabbed her.

Not Sure that he would’ve been able to stab her but I bet he would be able to subdue her at least push her out of the way and get into his car . However I think if it was his dad he wouldn’t  be able to push him away his dad was a pretty big guy

Interesting about his dad, for given the exposure he seems more of an enigma like Eric's parents than he does a real person like Dylan and his mother.

In this scenario, she knows the plan, so if he just pushes her away, it's a matter of time before she calls the police. I am not sure he would have been able to stab her either. Obviously, they never stabbed anyone or themselves during the massacre, and parents are another can of worms. But they were never tackled either, and I wonder if that is the kind of scenario which would have brought the knives out. What is he going to do, tie his parents up and cut the phone line? Even if he were prepared to shoot them, he probably wasn't 'geared up' yet.

Quite curious what Eric had in mind when he said that if the plans are discovered, the murder spree begins. He could have meant if somebody at school uncovered the plan, and then perhaps things more or less happen the same way but at an earlier date. But, surely the weapons were brought only on that day, and how would the school find out? That makes me think he meant if the plans were discovered at home. If so, they were probably prepared to kill their parents, and that is possibly small fry compared to a girlfriend.

Though to actually respond to the OP (oops), yeah, incel rage was a part of it, I'd say more than bullying, and one is correct to say losing virginity doesn't bring one a steady love life. And as depressed as they were, a break up would only make it worse. So, like they say, if they found 'the one' then yeah probably no massacre. Just 'a gf' though, if she found the plans for the massacre, they may have shot her right there. Not to mention if she just happened to be in the cafeteria.

Also I think by some measure - Brooks had to say they had "girlfriends" not girlfriends, which is more than others can say, Susan was Eric's gf and Robyn Dylan's gf, and they would have shrugged their shoulders if either died.

I disagree. Incel is a new thing and I don't think they, especially Dylan, committed the massacre because they could not get laid.

I get really irritated at this because you are also putting a lot of onus on the girls in this. Saying "hey girls, wanna stop a school shooter, you know what to do!"

We also went over a myriad of school/mass shooters who had sex and still committed massacres.

They were angry at society, there was mental illness, bullying... it was the times and if you weren't a teen in the late 90's in suburban America you may not get it and that's fine.. but I was and I get the atmosphere we were living in. Someone like Eric was growing up with a military father like Wayne, Kevin was a golden boy and he had OCD issues, health issues and was smaller than them both. I get that too. I had a lot of health issues growing up and people do treat you differently.

So no, it is not as simplistic as bullying or not getting laid. A lot of kids in HS are not having sex and that is okay.

The term is new, not the idea. It seems to me straightforward in his writing that Dylan felt no hope because he felt he'd never find love.  As incels are apt to say, it's not "tfw no sex", it's "tfw no gf". I don't think Brooks pointed out that they died virgins for no reason, and don't think the significance of that is about merely 'getting laid'.

"I get really irritated at this because you are also putting a lot of onus on the girls in this." Seems like an appeal to consequences. Yeah, it means the sexual revolution has a role in this, leaving low status men out of the market for women. Elliott Rodger is exhibit a. That the middle east has harems, leaving low status men out of luck and hopeless, is one reason given for why suicide attacks are more of an Arab thing.

"We also went over a myriad of school/mass shooters who had sex and still committed massacres." Well, I'm not talking about them, and it seems to me there are several attacking women directly. Rodger, Sodini, Lepine, Hennard, et al.

I agree it's not as simplistic as bullying or "not getting laid", but I think the feeling of failure with women is a bigger factor than bullying for their anger at society.

Weren't Robyn and Susan their g/fs though?

No. Robyn had a crush on Dylan, he apparently didn't feel the same about her. Susan and Eric barely knew each other. Their first date was on prom night. Not really a date, more just hanging out watching movies.