What's your take on the boys avoiding the gym during the shooting?

You would think that when the bombs failed they'd head straight for the gym and open fire on the jocks, since both boys got picked on a lot. What do you infer from them walking around the school, even dicking around in the science area, but not going to the gym?

In a sense if you look at it, the bombs not going off killed their excitement and morale, so they just walked into the closest area and started shooting. Even in the library, they taunted people all around Columbine and yet only shot few. If the bombs went off, even if it didn't blow up as they intended would have fueled their bloodlust. I'm also sure seeing some of the IEDS not going off would have killed some morale afterwards, especially given how you can hear the excitement when a pipe bomb goes off in the library call release circulating the internet. You could say they were thinking "We're fuckups so bad we can't even do firework bombs right"

To be honest, I still think when they swarmed the school they wanted the bombs to go off so they weren’t thinking about the gym they just wanted to kill people. I think they did the library massacre because they followed Patty and saw there were people there that they could tormebt. They didn’t have a Plan B

Screamingophelia wrote:

To be honest, I still think when they swarmed  the school they wanted the bombs to go off so they weren’t thinking about the gym they just wanted to kill people. I think they did the library massacre because they followed Patty and saw there were people there that they could tormebt. They didn’t have a Plan B

Unfortunately, the people in the library were just sitting ducks. It makes sense that is where they would carry out the most of the shooting. I agree that when the bombs failed, they weren't thinking clearly and just wanted to kill. They definitely could have killed more people than what they did. But the bombs not going off, in a sense, killed the mood. After the library, the adrenaline just kinda wore off. They didn't think to go anywhere else after that because they were already done with shooting people.

The gym was never in their plans. The large body count was in the commons and that was the main focus. They put so much into lunch A that they never considered they were kids trying to make bombs to take out a whole building. They thought they knew what they were doing. I also feel Patti lead them towards the library. I’m sure they had a clue that it can be busy in there at lunchtime. Why try to open doors down a hallway and kill when you can go into one big room and do it? Plus they could have their cop shoot out from the library. They failed, they knew it, and they lost all their adrenaline.

As if the jocks were the sole target for their rage.

Their mentality was that everyone was the enemy. Why do you think they placed the bombs in the cafeteria in the first place? To kill as many people as they could.

The killings weren't about getting back at bullies, at least not the literal, tangible ones. It was always just "fuck you", plain and simple.

QuestionMark wrote:

As if the jocks were the sole target for their rage.

Their mentality was that everyone was the enemy. Why do you think they placed the bombs in the cafeteria in the first place? To kill as many people as they could.

The killings weren't about getting back at bullies, at least not the literal, tangible ones. It was always just "fuck you", plain and simple.

You're absolutely right about that too. The jocks were never the sole focus of the shooting, the entire school was. They naturally just flowed to the library probably because Patti could have lead them there as someone mentioned. The people were sitting ducks anyways. Why go to them gym at all? How many people could really have been there during lunch A?

hvernon wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

As if the jocks were the sole target for their rage.

Their mentality was that everyone was the enemy. Why do you think they placed the bombs in the cafeteria in the first place? To kill as many people as they could.

The killings weren't about getting back at bullies, at least not the literal, tangible ones. It was always just "fuck you", plain and simple.

You're absolutely right about that too. The jocks were never the sole focus of the shooting, the entire school was.

I'd go a step further and suggest that all of Littleton was a target, maybe the whole world. Those car bombs weren't just for show, and neither were the diversions.

One would think they would of went to the gym or weight room where the likelihood of jocks being there would of been high.
But as [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] stated, the entire school was the enemy, the jocks were just one part of a cohesive unit.
Columbine was a melting pot of everything the boys hated. They wanted to burn every inch of that school to the ground.

I believe Eric said there were 100 people at most that he wouldn't want to kill in that school. It might of even been 100 people in the entire county.

No one was safe that day, and as we know most of the people that lost their lives never gave Eric or Dylan any problems, and were seemingly good people.

I would like to know who those jocks were in the hallway that shoved into Eric and Dylan walking with their camera? They blurred their faces, why do that? They should be exposed for the asses they are.

bradt93 wrote:

I would like to know who those jocks were in the hallway that shoved into Eric and Dylan walking with their camera? They blurred their faces, why do that? They should be exposed for the asses they are.

I don’t know who those guys were but I’m sure they blur their faces for their protection. 1. They are kids and 2. I’m sure the police don’t want people harassing them because of a video they happened to show up in.

SenSpiritedAway wrote:

bradt93 wrote:

I would like to know who those jocks were in the hallway that shoved into Eric and Dylan walking with their camera? They blurred their faces, why do that? They should be exposed for the asses they are.

I don’t know who those guys were but I’m sure they blur their faces for their protection. 1. They are kids and 2. I’m sure the police don’t want people harassing them because of a video they happened to show up in.

I think the main reason is that they are kids. They were both likely under 18.

bradt93 wrote:

I would like to know who those jocks were in the hallway that shoved into Eric and Dylan walking with their camera? They blurred their faces, why do that? They should be exposed for the asses they are.

Dylan wasn't in there. That was Eric Veik. Also they were minors. Why wouldn't their faces be blurred? So their faces should be exposed for shoving into Eric, Eric V, and Mike? A little too drastic don't you think?

Screamingophelia wrote:

To be honest, I still think when they swarmed  the school they wanted the bombs to go off so they weren’t thinking about the gym they just wanted to kill people. I think they did the library massacre because they followed Patty and saw there were people there that they could tormebt. They didn’t have a Plan B

Also I've heard from people that they wanted to be in the library when the bombs went off so they would all die

Screamingophelia wrote:

To be honest, I still think when they swarmed  the school they wanted the bombs to go off so they weren’t thinking about the gym they just wanted to kill people. I think they did the library massacre because they followed Patty and saw there were people there that they could tormebt. They didn’t have a Plan B

This is interesting. You really don't think they had a plan B? I always thought they probably did have a plan B...Idk wtf Plan B was but I would think in all the effort they put into attacking the school they would have a back up plan? But sometimes I forget these are teenagers and I forgot what an impulsive weirdo I was at 17-18.

dereknocturnal wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

To be honest, I still think when they swarmed  the school they wanted the bombs to go off so they weren’t thinking about the gym they just wanted to kill people. I think they did the library massacre because they followed Patty and saw there were people there that they could tormebt. They didn’t have a Plan B

This is interesting. You really don't think they had a plan B? I always thought they probably did have a plan B...Idk wtf Plan B was but I would think in all the effort they put into attacking the school they would have a back up plan? But sometimes I forget these are teenagers and I forgot what an impulsive weirdo I was at 17-18.

There definitely was a plan b, but it seemed that it wasn't well thought out.
If anything, it ended up saving people in the long run, as students were able to hear shots before they entered the school.
It seems like they put all their hope on those bombs detonating.
I also think a lot of the roaming that happened after they left the library was due to not having a solid plan b.

dereknocturnal wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

To be honest, I still think when they swarmed  the school they wanted the bombs to go off so they weren’t thinking about the gym they just wanted to kill people. I think they did the library massacre because they followed Patty and saw there were people there that they could tormebt. They didn’t have a Plan B

This is interesting. You really don't think they had a plan B? I always thought they probably did have a plan B...Idk wtf Plan B was but I would think in all the effort they put into attacking the school they would have a back up plan? But sometimes I forget these are teenagers and I forgot what an impulsive weirdo I was at 17-18.

I remember a user on here ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I believe it was) who suggested that there was such a lack of a Plan B that Eric and Dylan were still following "Plan A" to some extant. Allow me the grace to elaborate a little on this man's theory.

If you look closely at some of the few released pictures of the bombs, a timer on one is set to 9:35. If we accept that the clock was behind two hours then Eric and Dylan obviously planned for the bomb to go off at 11:35. So the first bomb's a dud, Eric and Dylan charge the school, shoot some people waiting for the second bomb to go off (and waiting for police to storm the building), and its only when they realize that the second bomb fails to explode that the whole plan has essentially fallen apart.

Make of it what you will.

I had no idea they planned the bombs for 11:35MT..... This is what makes columbine such a mystery,,,why set your bombs as you did E/D? Why rush the school as you did? What if the bombs went off but just injured you? You're alive but you have no legs? Did you plan you on that? you killed a ton of people but you are now a legless freak...is this ok with you? so many things about this 4/20/99 make no sense or the back up plan has no answer.

dereknocturnal wrote:

I had no idea they planned the bombs for 11:35MT..... This is what makes columbine such a mystery,,,why set your bombs as you did E/D? Why rush the school as you did? What if the bombs went off but just injured you? You're alive but you have no legs? Did you plan you on that? you killed a ton of people but you are now a legless freak...is this ok with you? so many things about this 4/20/99 make no sense or the back up plan has no answer.

They never thought of anything like this. To Eric and Dylan, those propane bombs were going to go off and bring down the whole school. They never stopped to think about any of that during the day of the shooting. The second bomb was gonna go off and bring down the library with them in it and that's how they were going to die. I agree with cakeman here that they didn't really have a Plan B. It was all or nothing for them. Eric and Dylan were telling people in the library that they were going to blow the place up. That was the plan all along. It failed, they failed. That's when they decided it was time to die.

hvernon wrote:

dereknocturnal wrote:

I had no idea they planned the bombs for 11:35MT..... This is what makes columbine such a mystery,,,why set your bombs as you did E/D? Why rush the school as you did? What if the bombs went off but just injured you? You're alive but you have no legs? Did you plan you on that? you killed a ton of people but you are now a legless freak...is this ok with you? so many things about this 4/20/99 make no sense or the back up plan has no answer.

They never thought of anything like this. To Eric and Dylan, those propane bombs were going to go off and bring down the whole school. They never stopped to think about any of that during the day of the shooting. The second bomb was gonna go off and bring down the library with them in it and that's how they were going to die. I agree with cakeman here that they didn't really have a Plan B. It was all or nothing for them. Eric and Dylan were telling people in the library that they were going to blow the place up. That was the plan all along. It failed, they failed. That's when they decided it was time to die.

That's crazy to me and it's just my opinion...I obviously have no idea what they were thinking...I just put myself in their shoes, "We're gonna die doing it" Idk who said it but they both clearly had plans of killing and dying. What if you don't die though? It's crazy to me they never thought of that, like what if we don't die? Then what? Eric did talk of going out in a shootout with cops the movie he quoted "I aint going down without a fight" or whatever..Ok but a cop could be off target and injure you, it's very possible they just thought a shootout meant death, without question. Like I've said many times, sometimes I forget they were just teens and even though I'm not far removed from my teens I forget what their mindset could've been, but now I'm just thinking shouldn't that be somewhere in the plans? Ok we will attack, we will kill.. but shouldn't we make sure we die too? Who wants to go to prison at 18 and possibly stay there until you're 80..Do you think they even thought that far down the road or they were just intent on NBK and getting revenge..Maybe that's why Eric just sat down and peaced out..It's been too long SWAT trucks are outside they have to be coming soon lets make sure we die! Idk?

Since I was tagged (or whatever the word is) I will respond. It will be tl;dr as there are several issues, but if somebody is interested in Columbine, as I would hope so here, they should take it seriously. It gets shrieking and gnashing of teeth, but I would ask you to put aside "They started shooting when the bombs failed" and "They were gunning for jocks" when you are theorizing. Those are opinions, not facts; and in my opinion not even true, but mere cliches.

The easiest thing to say is what QuestionMark already said, that they were trying to top McVeigh with casualties. The cafeteria was the target because it would be like a crater full of victims.  Pointing out the car bombs and the diversions are good points too. Also, firing at cops.  So, shooting up a gym, or anything else - aside from questions about whether their motive was really about jocks, one can easily mention that that would only be so many potential victims.

One might more sensibly ask why not, say, a sports stadium. Eric even mentioned one full of corpses in his Nazi paper. But consider the arrangement of victims in such a scenario. You'd have to spread charges all over the seats, or pull a Stephen Paddock, to kill people in a sports arena.  People aren't crowded in the center, but around the edge. A big bomb in the center wouldn't be as effective as it would in a cafeteria. Not to mention the easy access of the school for students compared to a stadium. While there very well may be other reasons, like just finding attacking the school a more attractive legacy for them, or revenge on students, I suspect those came after the school was hit upon as the best place for the sheer number of victims.

I am convinced "They started shooting when the bombs failed" is a myth. The reasons are many:

First off, the orthodox story - and the only reason anybody believes this, is that supposedly they were planning to shoot from the parking lot, from the locations of their cars, then when the bombs failed to go off at 11:17, they went to the stairs to open fire at 11:19. And without a plan B - they improvised that quickly. There's no way this makes sense.  So many questions you will never see anybody try to give an answer for; they will just call you stupid.

Why do you need the elevation of the stairs if the bombs fail, but not if the bombs work?  The cars were supposed to eventually explode. There are only 4 or so cafeteria tables by the south entrance and Eric's car; he'd have nobody to shoot.  The glass from the exploding cafeteria would kill them. The cops would shoot them in the back of the head once they got there. Their victims could turn around and run up the cafeteria stairs (as they did) and they'd be left in the parking lot with their dicks in their hands and no victims to shoot. I don't think they would charge into a cafeteria that had been bombed and was on fire. Also, I think Dylan descending the stairs to check on the bomb only makes sense if he didn't already know the bomb failed.  Worst of all for the stairs being "plan B", as Tim Krabbe will tell you, not a single witness says they waited by their cars for the cafeteria to explode. On the contrary, Eric was up on the stairs, waiting for Dylan, who eventually followed. There's just no reason to think this. Very obviously in my view, this is JeffCo lying to avoid copycats, and it's a bit grating to see people who are skeptical of so much of what JeffCo says buy into this, which is easily the craziest thing they say.

Cullen says they were to shoot from the parking lot because of "interlocking fire lanes" which is taught to people in the military - as if they had ever been in the military. I have to throw this in since my views have bizarrely been characterized as considering them to be too intelligent tactically, when the opposite is the case. Doubly bizarrely, the same critic who said this also said I was wrong because they planned every second of the massacre.

Those who are a bit more sensible will say Plan A was to shoot from the stairs with the bombs, and Plan B was to shoot from the stairs without the bombs. This doesn't involve contradicting witnesses and have quite so many absurdities, but this still fails utterly.  

For one, there's still the issue of the time. In literally one minute - when they had a diversion to buy them time, they change plans they've fantasized about for over a year. Don't buy that. Always found that bizarre even when I felt I had to accept it because it's what everybody else said. Much worse, why start shooting outside? Nobody who believes in Plan B will be able to answer that question. They planned for a cafeteria full of people. If they had moved on from the idea of bombing the cafeteria to shoot everybody they could - don't you think they would open fire in the cafeteria, with its several victims, rather than outside? Of course they would.

The timing of the shooting and it being outside only make sense if they thought the (first) bomb was about to explode, not because they failed. Because they thought the people in the cafeteria would soon be outside or dead/injured due to the bomb. Cullen and others note that they couldn't "set the bombs for 11:17", they could only set it to "between 11:15 and 11:20", i. e. to "11:20 at the latest". Makes perfect sense once you accept that. The bomb was supposed to go off at 11:20, so they started shooting at 11:19. They were early; not late.  They were up on the stairs to be shielded from the bomb blast, and could go either way the victims in the cafeteria ran, as well as the elevation.

Further, nobody ever asks: Why did Dylan descend the stairs, but Eric didn't? Very clearly in my opinion, Dylan was descending the stairs to shoot victims fleeing from the cafeteria into the parking lot. Probably with the TEC-9, hence he shot with it so few times, but fired his shotgun into Lance.   Eric was up on the stairs with the carbine to cover Dylan's back by shooting the cops. He couldn't shoot the victims fleeing the library up there. As far as we know, only Eric, not Dylan, shot at cops during the massacre. Dylan, not Eric, had the time of his life shooting students in the library. One can even interpret their t-shirts this way. Eric's "natural selection" was putting everybody in an Ultimate Doom game, having to survive a shootout; Dylan's "wrath" was his revenge at the students for having girlfriends/not being his girlfriend/etc.  

When the victims realized running into the parking lot was a death sentence, Dylan could run back up to meet Eric, and they could enter the west entrance to cut off their escape, exactly as they did when Dylan saw them running that way. This also explains the firing sequence in my opinion: they needed Rachel and Richard shot to clear their ability to enter the west entrance when their victims turn around, and they needed Daniel R./Lance/Sean shot because they needed to clear their (or Dylan's) ability to descend the stairs and shoot their victims fleeing into the parking lot.

Another point to which QuestionMark alludes, which is key to understanding the massacre in my view: there were TWO bombs.  Worst of all for "They started shooting when the bombs failed" - they said the whole time in the library that the library was going to explode.  So, no, impossible unless you say they were lying which is even more absurd. The only way to reconcile this is to say the second bomb was supposed to go off while they were in the library. There's also good evidence to suggest the two diversions were set for different times: the first with a timer, the second with motion detection to kill the first responders. It only makes sense, really. No reason to go to the trouble of two bombs set for the same time. Why not add more complexity by having different times?

Also, the picture of the bomb was very surprising when QuestionMark gave the idea that the clock was just 2 hours slow. That was the final straw. Then everything falls into place. The second bomb was meant for 11:35. Corey is the last to be shot at 11:35. After that, Dylan tells Evan he is going to live, but before then he told John to run (because everybody in the library was going to die from the bomb; they could have avoided shooting him if bomb not in play), and Eric told Bree everybody was going to die from the bomb, and Dylan kept yelling that the library was going to explode.  They leave the library at 11:36. Hell, it makes sense for why Daniel M. may have tried a final desperate act with Eric, and not before, since he was told he's about to be blown up anyway. Hell, after leaving the library they shoot the 2nd bomb that is supposed to go off at 11:35, they don't shoot at the one meant to go off at 11:20 as far as I know. Dylan said the massacre would be the most nerve-racking 15 minutes of his life. 11:20 to 11:35 is 15 minutes.  

Before the library, they are throwing pipe bombs into the cafeteria throughout probably hoping it will trigger the first bomb to go off. So, it seems quite clear to me they didn't truly give up on either cafeteria bomb exploding until they go back up those cafeteria stairs for the final time. I admit there are still several questions about other aspects of the massacre, but I double dog dare any other theory to explain all the above questions. I think you'll find they punt on the vast majority, and either appeal to authorities they question in every other aspect (Cullen/JeffCo), use the sense of tragedy to pretend everything being a mystery is a virtue, or pretend I'm mind-reading when I'm inferring from the facts. Indeed, literally they are; the myth of Plan B is all about mind reading, as are things like "they stopped shooting at 11:35 because they felt so bad because reasons"

"What do you infer from them walking around the school"
Dylan had got to kill students; Eric hadn't yet got to kill cops. They like anybody else would have thought they were in the building, and went looking for them. They have their guns drawn when they return to the cafeteria the final time (hence that was the shot put on Time magazine), and Eric waves, which he wrote was the hand signal for "cops sighted".

I am far less confident when theorizing about motive than I am with their MO, but I don't think jocks were the target. In my opinion, that should be classified with Christians and blacks as "things said the day after the massacre due to what they said in the library", but should have died two days later when the cafeteria bombs were made public. I don't think the girls they shot were jocks, and I cringe when people try to say they may have considered them such. As far as I am aware, only Dylan mentions hating jocks, and it's in the context of hating them for having lives and girlfriends. The cliche "they hated jocks for bullying" doesn't seem true, as only Dylan mentions jocks, and only Eric mentions bullying. Indeed it's hard to imagine Dylan getting picked on much with how tall he was. Even if Eric did mean the jocks, and Dylan did mean bullying by "This is our revenge" and "This is for what you've given us over the past year" (not sure he did), and telling jocks to stand up was about targeting them specifically and not e. g. saying whatever came to mind, feeling a sense of power over the usually stronger students, or nobody sitting down in an FPS video game;  one can view the massacre as Dylan manipulating - or whatever is a better word, goading perhaps - Eric into doing it with him so he can commit suicide. If that's true, and if the above is true that shooting students was more Dylan's thing, one can view what Dylan is saying in the library as psyching Eric up to shoot students with him, and the 'real' motive as his suicide.

As for their suicides, they seem to have hoped somebody would do it for them (the cops, the bombs while in the library, trying to make the bomb explode in the cafeteria), but were prepared to do it themselves with guns or bombs or knives. I am guessing they banked on being awake enough to eat a bomb or shoot themselves or cut their throats even if they were injured.  Dylan once mentioned tying a pipe bomb to his neck and lighting it to kill himself at home. With how little damage their pipe bombs did, I'm sure the victims families wish he had tried it. Also expecting to die in the library when the bomb went off may explain why that's where they shot themselves.

They goal - not jocks, just people.

Eric: "Keep this in mind, I want to burn the world"
That and other things he said leads me to believe it wasn't about jocks or blacks or "godly whores"...
Their target was society and humanity in general. The school just happened to be a symbol of everything they hated about it.

QuestionMark wrote:

hvernon wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

As if the jocks were the sole target for their rage.

Their mentality was that everyone was the enemy. Why do you think they placed the bombs in the cafeteria in the first place? To kill as many people as they could.

The killings weren't about getting back at bullies, at least not the literal, tangible ones. It was always just "fuck you", plain and simple.

You're absolutely right about that too. The jocks were never the sole focus of the shooting, the entire school was.

I'd go a step further and suggest that all of Littleton was a target, maybe the whole world. Those car bombs weren't just for show, and neither were the diversions.

I think you're on the right track. I've read most of Eric's journal and he talks about killing all of mankind, shooting up Littleton, and the ultimate destruction of the world.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I find your description of the events as they happened, coupled with the evidence about the bomb timers, very well thought out and convincing.