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true_crime

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PostSubject: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeThu Jul 11, 2019 6:40 pm

In Peter Langman’s book “Why Kids Kill” he compiles journal entries, interviews, etc. to have the professional opinion of Dylan as having Schizotypal Personality Disorder. The following details what this mental health disorder is and its symptoms:

“Schizotypal Personality Disorder (STPD) or Schizotypal Disorder is a mental disorder characterized by severe social anxiety, thought disorder, paranoid ideation, derealization, transient psychosis, and often unconventional beliefs. People with this disorder feel extreme discomfort with maintaining close relationships with people and avoid forming them, mainly because the subject thinks his or her peers harbor negative thoughts towards them. Peculiar speech mannerisms and odd modes of dress are also symptoms of this disorder. Those with STPD may react oddly in conversations, not respond or talk to themselves. They frequently interpret situations as being strange or having unusual meaning for them; paranormal and superstitious beliefs are common. Such people frequently seek medical attention for anxiety or depression instead of their personality disorder. Schizotypal personality disorder occurs in approximately 3% of the general population and is more common in males.”

“Schizotypal Personality Disorder usually co-occurs with Major Depressive Disorder, Dysthymia, and Generalized Social Phobia. Furthermore, sometimes Schizotypal Personality Disorder can co-occur with Obsessive–Compulsive Disorder, and its presence appears to affect treatment outcome adversely. The personality disorders that co-occur most often with Schizotypal Personality Disorder are Schizoid, Paranoid, Avoidant, and Borderline.”

“In the American Psychiatric Association's DSM-5, Schizotypal Personality Disorder is defined as a ‘pervasive pattern of social and interpersonal deficits marked by acute discomfort with, and reduced capacity for, close relationships as well as by cognitive or perceptual distortions and eccentricities of behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts.’”

“At least five of the following symptoms must be present:
* Ideas of reference
* Strange beliefs or magical thinking
* Abnormal perceptual experiences
* Strange thinking and speech
* Paranoia
* Inappropriate or constricted affect
* Strange behavior or appearance
* Lack of close friends
* Excessive social anxiety that does not abate and stems from paranoia rather than negative judgments about self.”

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Okay, so let’s break this down. Schizotypal Personality Disorder usually co-occurs with Major Depressive Disorder.” We as amateur researchers should know that based on his writings and behaviors, Dylan was definitely depressed. He also references suicide several times in his writings: how serious he was with these thoughts, we will never know. Schizotypal Personality Disorder does not increase the likelihood of Schizophrenia later on, although many mass murderers do show signs of Schizophrenia. It also onsets in teenage years/early 20’s, and is predominantly in males. Do I believe that Dylan was Schizo? Definitely not.

Now let’s analyze the symptoms. “Strange beliefs or magical thinking.” Dylan wrote about being God-like, of being superior to these mindless zombies. “Abnormal perceptual experiences.” Dylan writes about how jocks get the best looking girls, have nice cars, and have all the fun. He views himself as having no friends or no family that truly loves him. By many accounts, Dylan had several close friends in his circle and was well liked, much moreso than Eric. His parents obviously loved him and seemed pretty involved in his daily life. However, we don’t know if this is his depression talking or being Schizotypal. Severe depression does change your perception. “Strange thinking and speech.” That’s definitely true with using the made up words in his writings. “Paranoia.” Sue writes in her memoir about a trip to visit the University of Arizona. While sriving back Sue, Tom, and Dylan stop to eat at a McDonald’s. While there, Dylan keeps commenting that a small group of young people in a corner kept looking at him and were talking about him. Sue said the kids never even looked in his direction. But Dylan was so persistient about it that they eventually left early. “Strange behavior or appearance.” Dylan went around without washing his hair. He would wear the trenchcoat and the Hammer and Sickle on his boot. Towards the end of his life he became gaut looking and skinnier. Depression can also be so severe that something as simple as taking a shower seems like a ton of work. “Excessive social anxiety that does not abate and stems from paranoia rather than negative judgments about self.” It seems like Dylan did have some social anxiety, but it was not excessive. He was very shy/quiet, an introvert, and appeared uncomfortable in front of people and in front of a video camera. He definitely did not love himself and had a negative judgement about himself, but again that definitely could be depression rather than paranoia.

So out of these nine symptoms, it appears that Dylan displayed at least a decent amount of five of them (the minimum number to be diagnosed): Strange beliefs or magical thinking; abnormal perceptual experiences; strange thinking and speech; paranoia; and strange behavior or appearance.

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeThu Jul 11, 2019 10:32 pm

To be honest it was one of the first things i thought while reading his journal.
Besides being depressed he created some kind of another dimension in his head. Seems like he was 'Dylan Klebold' on appearance and that godlike persona at the same time in his mind. Hence the everlasting battle between good and evil, hence his triple barred cross. The paranoia part seemed to have been there already at an early age. For example that horse riding story in AMR. But you can easily interpret that as just being embarrassed. What makes it difficult is that he appeared to be so normal to everyone (besides being shy/awkward). I have an old friend who was/is Schizotypal and you could tell very well after being with him for just a couple of minutes...
When you have a disorder like that you can't switch it on and off, it's there all the time. But then, he was only 17 and maybe just began showing mild symptoms everyone missed. Interesting for sure..
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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeFri Jul 12, 2019 12:09 am

Runes wrote:
To be honest it was one of the first things i thought while reading his journal.
Besides being depressed he created some kind of another dimension in his head. Seems like he was 'Dylan Klebold' on appearance and that godlike persona at the same time in his mind. Hence the everlasting battle between good and evil, hence his triple barred cross. The paranoia part seemed to have been there already at an early age. For example that horse riding story in AMR. But you can easily interpret that as just being embarrassed. What makes it difficult is that he appeared to be so normal to everyone (besides being shy/awkward). I have an old friend who was/is Schizotypal and you could tell very well after being with him for just a couple of minutes...
When you have a disorder like that you can't switch it on and off, it's there all the time. But then, he was only 17 and maybe just began showing mild symptoms everyone missed. Interesting for sure..

That’s some pretty good insight, Runes. It’s almost like this complex, pretty constant inner battle between who he truly was and what he thought people wanted him to be.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeFri Jul 12, 2019 3:47 pm

Langman has some interesting insight since he studies school shooters in general. His main reasoning for schizotypal for Dylan seems to be how he invents/mixes words, "infinence" and such, which does deserve some explanation. Then again he just seemed to get attached to certain fancy words, like halcyon, and maybe tried to invent his own. Also, what little speech of his we have seems pretty normal, and his grammar seems fine from what I recall of his writing. Also, while some schizoid elements fit, as I understand schizotypal is like schizophrenic-lite, and hard to imagine Dylan having hallucinations and such. But I'm no psychologist, and Runes interacting with a schizotypal is interesting. Also Langman believes Eric is a psychopath, which I find hard to believe.  If had a psychologist drop the idea that Eric was the mastermind, and they were either equal masterminds or Dylan was the mastermind, both of which I find more plausible, I wonder what he could come up with.
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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeFri Jul 12, 2019 5:02 pm

cakeman wrote:
Langman has some interesting insight since he studies school shooters in general. His main reasoning for schizotypal for Dylan seems to be how he invents/mixes words, "infinence" and such, which does deserve some explanation. Then again he just seemed to get attached to certain fancy words, like halcyon, and maybe tried to invent his own. Also, what little speech of his we have seems pretty normal, and his grammar seems fine from what I recall of his writing. Also, while some schizoid elements fit, as I understand schizotypal is like schizophrenic-lite, and hard to imagine Dylan having hallucinations and such. But I'm no psychologist, and Runes interacting with a schizotypal is interesting. Also Langman believes Eric is a psychopath, which I find hard to believe.  If had a psychologist drop the idea that Eric was the mastermind, and they were either equal masterminds or Dylan was the mastermind, both of which I find more plausible, I wonder what he could come up with.

Being Schizotypal sounds more in line with Dylan’s writings, behaviors, and interactions. Perhaps he may have had two disorders playing out at the same time.

As for Eric, early into my research I believed he was a psychopath; now I do not believe he was. He fits more into being a sociopath than a psychopath. However, he was able to empathize and have some deep emotions/insights at times. In the Basement Tapes he says how he was trying to separate and spend as less time with his parents the couple of weeks before. He talks about how he’s sorry that he may cause them grief after the tragedy. He also wills his personal possessions away to his friends. There’s also a video he takes a couple of days before of himself sitting alone in his car in which he reminisces and cries. He describes being both homicidal and suicidal in psychologists forms- again, emotions, especially suicide. He was depressed, perhaps even just as much or more so than Dylan. Psychopaths are charming, but Susan DeWitt spoke about how sweet Eric was and how he didn’t try anything with her. It’s actually sad because Eric really strove to fit in, even within his small social circle. He would do anything for acceptance, he just didn’t know how to make or keep friends. So perhaps instead Eric was a Narcissist, and perhaps had a few antisocial characteristics/tendencies.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeFri Jul 12, 2019 5:06 pm

Something else that is very important to note: both boys were Gifted. In fact, both Dylan and Brooks were in the CHIPS Gifted and Talented program at Highlands Ranch Elementary. Gifted learners are very conscientious about the world around them. They are more attuned. The biggest struggle for Gifted children and adults are social skills. They don’t know how to work cooperatively in groups, they don’t know how to initiate friendships, and they don’t know how to continue friendships after creating them.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeFri Jul 12, 2019 5:43 pm

true_crime wrote:


As for Eric, early into my research I believed he was a psychopath; now I do not believe he was. He fits more into being a sociopath than a psychopath. However, he was able to empathize and have some deep emotions/insights at times. In the Basement Tapes he says how he was trying to separate and spend as less time with his parents the couple of weeks before. He talks about how he’s sorry that he may cause them grief after the tragedy. He also wills his personal possessions away to his friends. There’s also a video he takes a couple of days before of himself sitting alone in his car in which he reminisces and cries. He describes being both homicidal and suicidal in psychologists forms- again, emotions, especially suicide. He was depressed, perhaps even just as much or more so than Dylan. Psychopaths are charming, but Susan DeWitt spoke about how sweet Eric was and how he didn’t try anything with her. It’s actually sad because Eric really strove to fit in, even within his small social circle. He would do anything for acceptance, he just didn’t know how to make or keep friends. So perhaps instead Eric was a Narcissist, and perhaps had a few antisocial characteristics/tendencies.
Yeah I know of those facts mentioned. The hard part is tying them together with a theory which explains them all of course, not just a list of facts. Eric seems a lot more remorseful than Dylan, yet Eric gets the more ruthless psychological evaluation. I'm not original in saying I doubt he was either of a psychopath or sociopath, and I'm wary of attributing the massacre to mental illness at all.  To slightly alter a quote, they acted like psychos, but were not psychos. I find it hard to believe there are any good reasons to consider Eric a psychopath other than his perception as the massacre's leader due to being older and killing more people, and for his journal being more about the massacre, though I know e. g. the van incident is used as proof. But had the original plan worked, Dylan very well may have killed more, and I suspect between them he had more to do with the plan in general and with the bombs. He also had the larger car bomb, had those worked. Indeed, that they didn't work seems more in line with Dylan's personality than Eric's. He seemed the lazy one, no? Also Dylan had been writing his thoughts well before the massacre was an idea, while Eric had not. Plus the issue of writing for an audience, whether they were all his own thoughts or some Dylan's, etc.  In short, had the massacre never occurred, I doubt very strongly Eric would ever be considered a psychopath. It seems to me like just diagnosing him as "murderer" when left without explanation.

I agree that Eric was depressed as well. The paperwork you mentioned, the antidepressants, the crying, the comments about e. g. the food chain, the suicide. I would give the same riposte with Dylan. I think he was crazy sadistic murderer as much if not more so than Eric. As you mention, Eric mentions needing to avoid bonding, while Dylan didn't. So, the psycho/saddo FBI narrative is a bore, and I think quite possibly not even working with the proper facts, while it's at least true Dylan had something going on with love for made-up words, so psycho/schizotypal is at least more interesting and less of a cliche.
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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeFri Jul 12, 2019 8:11 pm

I agree they were both sadistic and Dylan may have acted even more sadistic than Eric on 4/20.
It's still gets me how he said "goodbye" to Sue (and not his father/Byron) on that last tape. So cold, sarcastic almost. Sad
I can't figure out how Dylan was able to be that way while he was known by his loved ones as this really kind, gentle and caring person. You can't fake that your whole life. It's as if he was truly two faced. Fascinating...
Eric on the other hand was already known to be moody and sadistic at times. That incident where someone drove into Dylan's car and he was pissed as hell, or in the Eric in Columbine video; he makes angry faces and comments like "i hate most people", "i'm gonna rip his head off and eat it".
Eric was the louder and more expressive one, but Dylan... man, was he coldblooded in the end.
He must have been so empty inside. Not sure if that two faced thing is a Schizotypal symptom.
Could be a persona, that godlike figure he was creating in his head.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeFri Jul 12, 2019 9:20 pm

Runes wrote:
I agree they were both sadistic and Dylan may have acted even more sadistic than Eric on 4/20.
It's still gets me how he said "goodbye" to Sue (and not his father/Byron) on that last tape. So cold, sarcastic almost. [smiley][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I can't figure out how Dylan was able to be that way while he was known by his loved ones as this really kind, gentle and caring person. You can't fake that your whole life. It's as if he was truly two faced. Fascinating...
Eric on the other hand was already known to be moody and sadistic at times. That incident where someone drove into Dylan's car and he was pissed as hell, or in the Eric in Columbine video; he makes angry faces and comments like "i hate most people", "i'm gonna rip his head off and eat it".
Eric was the louder and more expressive one, but Dylan... man, was he coldblooded in the end.
He must have been so empty inside. Not sure if that two faced thing is a Schizotypal symptom.
Could be a persona, that godlike figure he was creating in his head.

That’s exactly right Runes, Dylan created this godlike figure persona in his head where he is this far superior being and everyone else are just mindless zombies. In order to do this, there has to be at least some mental distress there that leads to negative behavioral and emotional health.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeFri Jul 12, 2019 9:42 pm

cakeman wrote:


As for Eric, early into my research I believed he was a psychopath; now I do not believe he was. He fits more into being a sociopath than a psychopath. However, he was able to empathize and have some deep emotions/insights at times. In the Basement Tapes he says how he was trying to separate and spend as less time with his parents the couple of weeks before. He talks about how he’s sorry that he may cause them grief after the tragedy. He also wills his personal possessions away to his friends. There’s also a video he takes a couple of days before of himself sitting alone in his car in which he reminisces and cries. He describes being both homicidal and suicidal in psychologists forms- again, emotions, especially suicide. He was depressed, perhaps even just as much or more so than Dylan. Psychopaths are charming, but Susan DeWitt spoke about how sweet Eric was and how he didn’t try anything with her. It’s actually sad because Eric really strove to fit in, even within his small social circle. He would do anything for acceptance, he just didn’t know how to make or keep friends. So perhaps instead Eric was a Narcissist, and perhaps had a few antisocial characteristics/tendencies.
Yeah I know of those facts mentioned. The hard part is tying them together with a theory which explains them all of course, not just a list of facts. Eric seems a lot more remorseful than Dylan, yet Eric gets the more ruthless psychological evaluation. I'm not original in saying I doubt he was either of a psychopath or sociopath, and I'm wary of attributing the massacre to mental illness at all.  To slightly alter a quote, they acted like psychos, but were not psychos. I find it hard to believe there are any good reasons to consider Eric a psychopath other than his perception as the massacre's leader due to being older and killing more people, and for his journal being more about the massacre, though I know e. g. the van incident is used as proof. But had the original plan worked, Dylan very well may have killed more, and I suspect between them he had more to do with the plan in general and with the bombs. He also had the larger car bomb, had those worked. Indeed, that they didn't work seems more in line with Dylan's personality than Eric's. He seemed the lazy one, no? Also Dylan had been writing his thoughts well before the massacre was an idea, while Eric had not. Plus the issue of writing for an audience, whether they were all his own thoughts or some Dylan's, etc.  In short, had the massacre never occurred, I doubt very strongly Eric would ever be considered a psychopath. It seems to me like just diagnosing him as "murderer" when left without explanation.

I agree that Eric was depressed as well. The paperwork you mentioned, the antidepressants, the crying, the comments about e. g. the food chain, the suicide. I would give the same riposte with Dylan. I think he was crazy sadistic murderer as much if not more so than Eric. As you mention, Eric mentions needing to avoid bonding, while Dylan didn't. So, the psycho/saddo FBI narrative is a bore, and I think quite possibly not even working with the proper facts, while it's at least true Dylan had something going on with love for made-up words, so psycho/schizotypal is at least more interesting and less of a cliche.


Something else that came to mind when I was reading your post was the van break-in. Eric acres very remorseful to his parents and the court system. However, just a couple of days after the incident he wrote-paraphrasing here- “Isn’t America supposed to be the land of the free? How come, if I’m free, I can’t deprive some dumb f*** of his possessions if he sits them out in the middle of f****** nowhere on a Frifu***** night? Natural selection. Fu**** should be shot.” Is this rage? Is this typical teenage angst? Or is it something deeper than that? Then on the other hand, neither boy wanted to talk about it afterwards, did not want their friends to know about it, and did not want to discuss it or answer their friends’ questions. One of them- I think Dylan- said it was the most embarrassing moment/action of his life. So this is more evidence of their true identify versus who they thought people wanted them to be, how people viewed them.

A very complex question is how can two boys go from being ashamed and embarrassed from a van break-in when they were bored to murdering innocent classmates and taking their own lives?

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeSat Jul 13, 2019 4:24 am

true_crime wrote:
A very complex question is how can two boys go from being ashamed and embarrassed from a van break-in when they were bored to murdering innocent classmates and taking their own lives?

They were embarrassed they got caught and had to face the consequences for their actions.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeSat Jul 13, 2019 5:22 am

QuestionMark wrote:
A very complex question is how can two boys go from being ashamed and embarrassed from a van break-in when they were bored to murdering innocent classmates and taking their own lives?

They were embarrassed they got caught and had to face the consequences for their actions.

Could we also say too with definitive certainty that the van break-in was the tipping point? And that purchasing the weapons was the point of no return?

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeSat Jul 13, 2019 5:29 pm

true_crime wrote:
Something else that came to mind when I was reading your post was the van break-in. Eric acres very remorseful to his parents and the court system. However, just a couple of days after the incident he wrote-paraphrasing here- “Isn’t America supposed to be the land of the free? How come, if I’m free, I can’t deprive some dumb f*** of his possessions if he sits them out in the middle of f****** nowhere on a Frifu***** night? Natural selection. Fu**** should be shot.” Is this rage? Is this typical teenage angst? Or is it something deeper than that?

I have never seen this contradiction in Eric as a sign of psycopathy, but more as just being able to function in the real world. While Eric did not believe what he did was wrong, he was able to just cooperate, make his apologies, and did it so well he was granted early release from Diversion. How many times have we had to do something similar? Maybe the boss asks us to do something we think is stupid, but we have to smile and do it anyway, despite knowing it's dumb. Eric knew to do what was asked of him even if his own opinions were different. I've always thought the psychologists using this specific point to call Eric a psycopath was an overreaction.

I love this thread, btw. Psychologically analyzing Eric and Dylan is probably what I find most interesting about the case. You all have such great thoughts on the subject.
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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeTue Jul 16, 2019 5:56 pm

LadyStardust wrote:
Something else that came to mind when I was reading your post was the van break-in. Eric acres very remorseful to his parents and the court system. However, just a couple of days after the incident he wrote-paraphrasing here- “Isn’t America supposed to be the land of the free? How come, if I’m free, I can’t deprive some dumb f*** of his possessions if he sits them out in the middle of f****** nowhere on a Frifu***** night? Natural selection. Fu**** should be shot.” Is this rage? Is this typical teenage angst? Or is it something deeper than that?

I have never seen this contradiction in Eric as a sign of psycopathy, but more as just being able to function in the real world. While Eric did not believe what he did was wrong, he was able to just cooperate, make his apologies, and did it so well he was granted early release from Diversion. How many times have we had to do something similar? Maybe the boss asks us to do something we think is stupid, but we have to smile and do it anyway, despite knowing it's dumb. Eric knew to do what was asked of him even if his own opinions were different. I've always thought the psychologists using this specific point to call Eric a psycopath was an overreaction.

I love this thread, btw. Psychologically analyzing Eric and Dylan is probably what I find most interesting about the case. You all have such great thoughts on the subject.

Yeah I believe that it was pure anger there in his journal instead of psychopathic symptoms there. His whole mentality of “walking a straight line” and being Type A personality when it came to his grades could be very heavily influenced of being raised in a military household.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeTue Jul 16, 2019 6:08 pm

UPDATED:

An even more fitting diagnosis for Dylan. He may have had more than one mental health issue. I plan on analyzing and quoting his writings later on:

“Avoidant personality disorder (AvPD) is a Cluster C personality disorder. Those affected display a pattern of severe social anxiety, social inhibition, feelings of inadequacy and inferiority, extreme sensitivity to negative evaluation and rejection, and avoidance of social interaction despite a strong desire for intimacy. The behavior is usually noticed by early adulthood and occurs in most situations.

People with AvPD often consider themselves to be socially inept or personally unappealing and avoid social interaction for fear of being ridiculed, humiliated, rejected, or disliked. They generally avoid becoming involved with others unless they are certain they will be liked. As the name suggests, the main coping mechanism of those with AvPD is avoidance of feared stimuli. Childhood emotional neglect (in particular, the rejection of a child by one or both parents) and peer group rejection are associated with an increased risk for its development; however, it is possible for AvPD to occur without any notable history of abuse or neglect.

Avoidant individuals often choose jobs of isolation so that they do not have to interact with the public regularly, due to their anxiety and fear of embarrassing themselves in front of others. Some with this disorder may fantasize about idealized, accepting and affectionate relationships, due to their desire to belong. Individuals with the disorder tend to describe themselves as uneasy, anxious, lonely, unwanted and isolated from others. They often feel themselves unworthy of the relationships they desire, so they shame themselves from ever attempting to begin them. If they do manage to form relationships, it is also common for them to preemptively abandon them due to fear of the relationship failing.

People with AvPD are preoccupied with their own shortcomings and form relationships with others only if they believe they will not be rejected. Loss and social rejection are so painful that these individuals will choose to be alone rather than risk trying to connect with others. They often view themselves with contempt, while showing an increased inability to identify traits within themselves that are generally considered as positive within their societies.

* Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships
* Heightened attachment-related anxiety, which may include a fear of abandonment
* Substance abuse and/or dependence

Avoidants are prone to self-loathing and, in certain cases, self-harm. In particular, avoidants who have comorbid PTSD have the highest rates of engagement in self-harming behavior, outweighing even those with borderline personality disorder (with or without PTSD). Substance use disorders are also common in individuals with AvPD—particularly in regard to alcohol, benzodiazepines and heroin- and may significantly affect a patient's prognosis.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) of the APA also has an Avoidant Personality Disorder diagnosis (301.82). It refers to a widespread pattern of inhibition around people, feeling inadequate and being very sensitive to negative evaluation. Symptoms begin by early adulthood and occur in a range of situations. Four of seven specific symptoms should be present, which are the following:

* Avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact, because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection
* Is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked
* Shows restraint within intimate relationships because of the fear of being shamed or ridiculed
* Is preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations
* Is inhibited in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy
* Views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others
* Is unusually reluctant to take personal risk or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing

According to the DSM-5 Avoidant Personality Disorder must be differentiated from similar personality disorders such as Dependent, Paranoid, Schizoid, and Schizotypal. But these can also occur together; this is particularly likely for AvPD and Dependent Personality Disorder. Thus, if criteria for more than one personality disorder are met, all can be diagnosed.

There is also an overlap between Avoidant and Schizoid personality traits (see Schizoid Avoidant Behavior) and AvPD may have a relationship to the schizophrenia spectrum.”

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeTue Jul 16, 2019 9:49 pm

I remember in another thread there was debate over whether or not Dylan had autism or not. I have to say there were compelling arguments for it but I've never been entirely sold on it.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeTue Jul 16, 2019 11:34 pm

Avoidant and Autism have a lot of overlap.. I don't think he was autistic, though. He definitely had some traits, but being gifted can also look like autism.
I myself am a diagnosed Avoidant, not proud of it and it got somewhat better with the years luckily.
(i never self harmed nor became dependent on substances and have had enough boyfriends, etc)

I recognize so much in Dylan, sometimes it's scares the sh*t out of me.
But i also think there was more going on with him. I don't think he was (just) Avoidant.
I lean more towards the Schizotypal type because of that other dimension and godlike persona he created in his head, the two faced thing. I also think in the last couple of years he was more paranoid of people plotting against him than ashamed and shy. I mean, i know i shouldn't have, but i laughed out loud reading his paper about that diversion class. I would never dare doing something like that!
He was making fun of the whole thing.
He was also rude to teachers according to some classmates; again, i wouldn't dare! Hell, even Eric wouldn't dare Laughing
Those are not very typical Avoidant traits, the opposite actually. But maybe he just didn't give a f*ck anymore..


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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeWed Jul 17, 2019 12:50 am

Runes wrote:
I mean, i know i shouldn't have, but i laughed out loud reading his paper about that diversion class. I would never dare doing something like that!
He was making fun of the whole thing.
He was also rude to teachers according to some classmates; again, i wouldn't dare! Hell, even Eric wouldn't dare  Laughing
Those are not very typical Avoidant traits, the opposite actually. But maybe he just didn't give a f*ck anymore..

Eh, details like that make me lean against a diagnosis of APD. If he was showing traits very dramatically opposed to the disorder then I think it might be reasonable to assume he probably didn't have it.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeWed Jul 17, 2019 4:57 am

QuestionMark wrote:
I remember in another thread there was debate over whether or not Dylan had autism or not. I have to say there were compelling arguments for it but I've never been entirely sold on it.

As someone who works with tweens and teens with a litany of identified disabilities it is my professional opinion that Dylan did not have Autism. There really never were any reports or statements of any sensory processing issues. In fact, I don’t see any autistic traits in him.

I’m starting to believe he had 2 or maybe even 3 mental health issues happening simultaneously.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeWed Jul 17, 2019 4:59 am

Runes wrote:
Avoidant and Autism have a lot of overlap.. I don't think he was autistic, though. He definitely had some traits, but being gifted can also look like autism.
I myself am a diagnosed Avoidant, not proud of it and it got somewhat better with the years luckily.
(i never self harmed nor became dependent on substances and have had enough boyfriends, etc)

I recognize so much in Dylan, sometimes it's scares the sh*t out of me.
But i also think there was more going on with him. I don't think he was (just) Avoidant.
I lean more towards the Schizotypal type because of that other dimension and godlike persona he created in his head, the two faced thing. I also think in the last couple of years he was more paranoid of people plotting against him than ashamed and shy. I mean, i know i shouldn't have, but i laughed out loud reading his paper about that diversion class. I would never dare doing something like that!
He was making fun of the whole thing.
He was also rude to teachers according to some classmates; again, i wouldn't dare! Hell, even Eric wouldn't dare [smiley][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Those are not very typical Avoidant traits, the opposite actually. But maybe he just didn't give a f*ck anymore..

I myself have Borderline Personality Disorder with overlapping Major Depressive Disorder and Generalized Anxiety Disorder. There are so many things we have yet to learn about mental illness. My hope is that we make so many leaps toward in the next several years.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeWed Jul 17, 2019 7:37 am

true_crime wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
I remember in another thread there was debate over whether or not Dylan had autism or not. I have to say there were compelling arguments for it but I've never been entirely sold on it.

As someone who works with tweens and teens with a litany of identified disabilities it is my professional opinion that Dylan did not have Autism. There really never were any reports or statements of any sensory processing issues.

I have autism and to my knowledge don't have sensory processing problems. It's a spectrum for a reason.

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PostSubject: Re: More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis   More Fitting Mental Health Diagnosis Icon_minitimeWed Jul 17, 2019 8:42 am

QuestionMark wrote:
Runes wrote:
I mean, i know i shouldn't have, but i laughed out loud reading his paper about that diversion class. I would never dare doing something like that!
He was making fun of the whole thing.
He was also rude to teachers according to some classmates; again, i wouldn't dare! Hell, even Eric wouldn't dare  Laughing
Those are not very typical Avoidant traits, the opposite actually. But maybe he just didn't give a f*ck anymore..

Eh, details like that make me lean against a diagnosis of APD. If he was showing traits very dramatically opposed to the disorder then I think it might be reasonable to assume he probably didn't have it.

I was trying to say that, but i'm not a native English speaker so i might not express myself very clear all the time..
Like true_crime said, he might have had multiple diagnoses.
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