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 How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?

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lasttrain
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PostSubject: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeWed Aug 28, 2013 4:11 am

Reading through the 11k I found it ironic that both had taken Psychology their senior year. I imagine their curriculum would have touched base with mental illnesses and such topics. It got me to thinking...were Eric and Dylan so far gone or too ashamed to admit that they had a problem? Did they simply choose to ignore their symptoms? I know Eric was seeing a therapist, but Dylan did no such thing (that I know of).
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeWed Aug 28, 2013 4:34 am

I think that Dylan knew he was depressed but blamed it on stereotypical hormones. A lot of people get their depression ignored because they are in that hormonal imbalance stage. If he had told his parents they would have been less concerned because he was at that age and he (and they) knew teenagers go through that problem.
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeWed Aug 28, 2013 4:39 am

Eric did see a therapist voluntarily (and was diagnosed with OCD), so he knew that some of what he was feeling/thinking was something he needed help with. He was very open about this in his diversion papers. While I don't believe that he fully ignored his symptoms, I do believe that what he was going through was a lot bigger than he assumed. I suspect that he had to learn a healthy way of handling his emotions and the thoughts he describes as 'racing', but that he missed the mark on that and slipped into the whole superiority-ra-ra-better-than-you ideas. I doubt the medication did much good, especially because he cycled himself on and off that stuff. (I also seem to remember him stating somewhere that the medication 'honed his focus', so that's a really concerning statement..)

As for Dylan, I truly think that Dylan was aware of what was going on but that he had somehow conceived the idea that he could work through this on his own. It's interesting that they found a bottle of St John's Wort (natural combatant of depression) in his room, because that leads me to believe that he was at the very least aware enough to want to try a non-invasive method of dealing with it. His mother describes Dylan as quite self-reliant and it is also her belief that he didn't ask for help because he wanted to sort through his depression on his own. Maybe he felt that his parents already had enough on their plates through the trouble they had with his older brother at the time? Or maybe he just felt that 'nobody would understand this pain' or something like that? I don't know the exact reasoning behind him keeping his mouth shut, but I do believe he was aware of what he was going through to some extent.
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeWed Aug 28, 2013 9:23 pm

I don't remember Eric voluntarily talking to a therapist. I believe that was court ordered, but still wasn't apart of his diversion program. Dylan never had to talk to a therapist though I do remember reading both he and Eric talked to Eric's therapist at the same time. A practice that came to an end after Columbine. I still think Eric's therapist is hiding something. I think he knew more about Eric's homicidal thoughts than whats been said, which is nothing.

As far as their being aware of their problems. I think there may have been times where they may have wondered why they felt the way they did. You can't sit there and think like that without taking a look at yourself as well. One of the most telling signs was when Eric wrote on one of his therapy sheets about how admitting his problems made him realize things. I wonder what those "things" where exactly.

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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeThu Aug 29, 2013 4:37 am

Lifetime wrote:
I don't remember Eric voluntarily talking to a therapist. I believe that was court ordered, but still wasn't apart of his diversion program.
True, true, but.. the boy could've just kept his mouth shut about his problems, right? Nobody would've been much wiser if he'd just lied his ass off in the diversion questionnaire. He must've known that filling out that stuff the way he did would've led him down the therapy road. That's led me to believe that some of this 'getting help'-thing was a voluntary move on his part. Maybe there was a time when what he was feeling/thinking did concern him? I don't know.. it just feels like he could've easily said nothing, but chose to step out because he genuinely wanted to get some help. (I really, really, really want to take a good long look at those therapy files. Something must've leaked. Something in his realisations must've been exactly the opposite of what the therapy was meant to achieve.)
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lasttrain




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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 30, 2013 12:26 am

Maybe this is pointing out the obvious, but Eric had overwhelming homicidal ideation. The way that some boys think about sex, he thought about killing other human beings. These thoughts began to preoccupy him in puberty and only got worse, until he could no longer imagine himself in any other kind of relation to others.

It would be surprising if he didn't occasionally have a fleeting sense that something was badly wrong.

But am I wrong to say that Eric broadcast very little? Did he ever get into trouble for writing violent stories? I don't see "cry for help" from Eric.
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 30, 2013 1:20 am

Eric would have gone through puberty in middle school. I always thought Eric began feeling homicidal starting in his junior year. I disagree. In the beggining I think Eric really wanted help and that's why he was so completely honest on the diversion questionnaire, wrote all those outlandish and over the top stories and being so outspoken as a way to see if people would care enough to notice and as a cry for help.
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 30, 2013 2:41 am

CatherineM813 wrote:
 I disagree. In the beggining I think Eric really wanted help and that's why he was so completely honest on the diversion questionnaire, wrote all those outlandish and over the top stories and being so outspoken as a way to see if people would care enough to notice and as a cry for help.
I completely and entirely agree. I have thought this...I'll even go as far as saying that I have sensed this, for many, many years.
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 30, 2013 10:21 am

It is a stretch to say he was completely honest. He says he had homicidal thoughts, but that's not completely honest.

Completely honest would've been, "I am overwhelmed by homicidal thoughts and I am contemplating killing large numbers of children."
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 30, 2013 10:30 am

I don't think it's that much of a stretch. Eric checked off most of the boxes on both questionnaires. If he didn't want help then he would have kept his feelings and those thoughts to himself. And perhaps Eric said something similar to his therapist and that is one of the main reasons why he refuses to release anything. If anyone deserves to see those documents than it's Eric's family.
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 30, 2013 2:27 pm

lasttrain wrote:
Completely honest would've been, "I am overwhelmed by homicidal thoughts and I am contemplating killing large numbers of children."
The questionnaire was filled out in early '98. Eric ticked the box of homicidal thoughts alongside a number of other (very concerning) items. Take it from someone who's filled out about a dozen of these types of questionnaires that they're just initial indicators as to where the problems really lie. A questionnaire like this one isn't meant to make a definite statement as to someone's health and sanity, but is rather an indicator of warning signs and a small sign of how conscious a person is when it comes to their problems. It'd take a full mental health intake/evaluation involving at least one questionnaire like the SCID (structured clinical interview for DSM-IV) and conversations with both youth and parents to figure out just how prevalent/concerning the combination of the checked items is. Any therapist worth their salt would have jumped on that homicidal ideation problem Eric ticked off instantly, or at the very least made note of it as very concerning and worth speaking about once the initial patient-therapist confidentiality and comfort zone had been established. The fact that Eric not only received a diagnosis/treatment but also medication to help him stop the racing thoughts and get a handle on his rage is very telling: you don't get treatment and medication for no reason and so whatever Eric said was concerning enough to warrant this approach. I believe that it is one of the instances in his life where Eric was honest about what was going on, because he couldn't get a grip on what was happening and wanted to get help in getting himself back under control. (I think he had huge control issues, which seems to be supported by the OCD-diagnosis. It must've been quite frightening to have himself spiral out of that normal level of control he wanted to have.)

Early '98 saw Eric get a tentative grip on himself in the worst way possible. I sincerely doubt that he was able to form a coherent thought along the lines of "I am contemplating killing large numbers of children" in those days. His early writings see him direct his rage everywhere. He is leaking disdain for the human race through every single inch of space he takes up in the material we've been given and not been given. He's not very discriminate about who gets the hit: most of the human race isn't worth a damn thing, so eradicating it and helping natural selection along is the best avenue of interest for him. I don't think it was personal back in those early days. I don't think Columbine was the set target straight off the bat, but it was simply the most attainable target and a target that held some degree of personal significance for himself and for the guy he was going to do this with. I don't think Eric could've articulated the homicidal ideation so specifically at that point in time. This may also be the reason why his therapist did not have the information required to step out of his confidentiality agreement in order to warn a specific target before Columbine happened. Eric was gunning for everyone, everywhere, and by the time his plans were crystal-clear he wouldn't have confided in his therapist any longer. He learned to hide it. He learned to keep a leash on it. He learned how to do this so well that the frequency of his therapy went down, so there would've been a marked sign of progress somewhere down the line in that therapy that made it possible for the frequency to diminish. (Again, I would have to see the papers of his therapist in order to be completely certain of what I'm saying right now. It makes enough sense, though, doesn't it?)
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 02, 2013 11:57 am

thedragonrampant wrote:
(and was diagnosed with OCD)
What is your source that Eric was officially diagnosed with OCD? I know the Luvox medication he was taking can be used to treat someone suffering from OCD but i hadn't read anything official that this is what he was diagnosed with.
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 02, 2013 2:02 pm

queenfarooq wrote:
thedragonrampant wrote:
(and was diagnosed with OCD)
What is your source that Eric was officially diagnosed with OCD? I know the Luvox medication he was taking can be used to treat someone suffering from OCD but i hadn't read anything official that this is what he was diagnosed with.
Huh, I seem to sometimes get the information from the media mixed up with the official information. We don't have the treatment papers or anything from his therapist, so I stand corrected in that this would be his definitive diagnosis.

However, both of the medications he was prescribed are most commonly used for treatment of OCD or depression or severe anxiety disorders. Coupling this with Eric's own writings about why his doctor prescribed him these medications would probably indicate that they were actually part of the treatment for OCD. His entry of 4/21/98 (for instance) cites "my doctor wants to put me on medication to stop thinking about so many things and to stop getting angry", which are both really common factors that appear (in combination with one another) in OCD much more than they do in the other two things the medications are most commonly prescribed for. Combining this with other things about Eric, such as his very extreme response to Brooks's unerring lateness and the level of organisation he showcases across the board, would make a really strong case for OCD as well. The information we currently have tells me that OCD is the most likely scenario for the official diagnosis, although it is still an assumption at the end of the day and not fact like I stated before. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 02, 2013 2:49 pm

September 18, 2000 - Wayne and Katherine Harris file papers in federal court against psychologist Kevin Albert, who treated their son, Eric, for obsessive compulsive disorder and depression. They claim that if Eric had ever hinted at carrying out the massacre during any of their sessions together, Kevin should have told somebody

Eric's Journal 4/28/99 - Eric began taking Luvox shortly after this was written and which he continued to take until his death. It was sometimes reported in the media that Eric had been diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). There is no evidence that Eric had OCD or had ever been diagnosed with it. The error likely was a result of the fact that Luvox is often used to treat OCD. Thus, reports that he had been prescribed Luvox, a medication often used to treat OCD, apparently became distorted into statements that Eric had OCD. Prior to taking Luvox, Eric had been on Zoloft, an antidepressant medication, for a brief period following his arrest.

From Comprehending Columbine by Ralph Larkin: Eric had first been prescribed Zoloft, when he was diagnosed with OCD following his arrest for the theft of equipment from a truck. Subsequently, Zoloft was replaced by Luvox.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] The first antidepressant Eric Harris was given was Zoloft.   Within six weeks of taking the drug Eric reported he was having homicidal and suicidal thoughts.   Clearly doctors suspected the antidepressant because they took him off the drug immediately.   Eric Harris was taken off that drug but then was put on Luvox.   The Luvox  caused him to also have violent thoughts and with homicidal intent Eric Harris killed students at Columbine.   The Columbine families filed a legal law suit against Solvay, the maker of the antidepressant Luvox.   The drug companies threatened to counter sue to Columbine victims so as a result all the victims retracted their law suits except Mark Allen Taylor.   Mark stood up to the pressure and intimidation by the big drug company which had much to lose by the publicity brought by Mark's tragic victims story.   Solvay already had bad press about their drug hitting the news because a patient, Matthew Beck, who was also on Luvox, went on a shooting spree at the Connecticut Lottery killing four co-workers before taking his own life.   In another Luvox case, a decorated police officer from New Jersey was prescribed Luvox and while on this medication he shot six persons -- killing them.   This police officer, Edward L. Lutes along with Mark Allen Taylor filed a lawsuit against Luvox.   This lawsuit caused the drug manufacturer to pull the drug off the market in the U.S.A. Even though Mark Taylor had survived more gunshot wounds during the shooting rampage than anyone else, Mark did not given in to the intimidation by the pharmaceutical company's legal actions.     Mark's courage and that of a decorated police officer in NJ, Edward L. Lutes, forced a stop on the sale of this dangerous drug, Luvox.

Luvox is in a class of drugs called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI).  Other SSRIs include Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft.  An estimated 10 million Americans take anti-depressant medications.

Mark Taylor, the first student shot at Columbine, brought a lawsuit against Solvay, the international pharmaceutical company that produces Luvox.  Taylor's 2001 lawsuit said Luvox had caused Harris to become manic, psychotic, and homicidal/suicidal and had brought about "emotional blunting,'' or a lack of inhibition.  Tayor's lawsuit also faulted Solvay for failing to warn of the "risks and dangers'' associated with the drug.

In early 1998, according to Taylor's lawsuit, Harris had taken Zoloft for two months, but soon became "obsessional."

"Dr. Tracy says Eric became obsessed with homicidal and suicidal thoughts “within weeks” after he began taking Zoloft. Due to his obsession with killing, Harris was switched to Luvox, which was in his system at the time of the shooting, according to his autopsy. However, the change from Zoloft to Luvox is like switching from Pepsi to Coke, Dr. Tracy said."

"Eric was taking Luvox, which he was required to take as part of court-ordered anger management therapy"

Eric's Bathroom: Two King Soopers Pharmacy pill bottles prescribed to Eric Harris for LUVOX 100mg tablets. One bottle on the sink counter, one bottle in a vanity drawer (one bottle empty, one bottle containing tablets).

[On Thursday, April 15] at approximately 1800 hours, Staff Sergeant Gonzales arrived at Harris's home at 8276 South Reed St and was met by Eric Harris and his father. Staff Sergeant Gonzales had a casual conversation with Mr. Harris in reference to Harris' military career.

During this conversation, Eric's mother came downstairs and joined the conversation concerning the Marine Corp. The Harris' had questions concerning jobs in the Marine Corp and the delayed entry program.

Eric's mother inquired as to Eric's eligibility if he was currently taking an anti depressant.

Eric's mother retrieved a bottle of pills from the upstairs so that Staff Sergeant Gonzales could identify the drug and check on the eligibility status. Staff Sergeant Gonzales looked at the prescription bottle and copied the name of the drug, Luvox.

Staff Sergeant Gonzales told the Harris' that he would check on Eric's eligibility status and call them back. He did not tell the Harris' that he was not eligible at this time because he wanted to check further with the Marine Corp.

Either the following day, Friday 04-16-99 or on Saturday 04-17-99, Staff Sergeant Gonzales left a message on Harris's home telephone for him to call him This telephone call was not returned and Staff Sergeant Gonzales had no further contact with Harris.

Staff Sergeant Gonzales said that Harris was never notified that he would not be eligible for entry into the Marine Corp.

LUVOX Tablets are indicated for the treatment of obsessions and compulsions in patients with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), as defined in the DSM-III-R.

The obsessions or compulsions cause marked distress, are time-consuming, or significantly interfere with social or occupational functioning.

The efficacy of LUVOX Tablets was established in three 10-week trials with obsessive compulsive outpatient* with the diagnosis of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder as defined in DSM-III-R.

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder is characterized by recurrent and persistent ideas, thoughts, impulses or images (obsessions) that are ego-dystonic and/or repetitive, purposeful, and intentional behaviors (compulsions) that are recognized by the person as excessive or unreasonable.

The effectiveness of LUVOX Tablets for long-term use, i e. for more than 10 weeks, has not been systematically evaluated in placebo-controlled trials. Therefore, the physician who elects to use LUVOX Tablets for extended periods should periodically re-evaluate the long-term usefulness of
the drug for the individual patient.

Wikipedia: Fluvoxamine (Luvox) is an antidepressant which functions as a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) and σ1 receptor agonist. Fluvoxamine is used for the treatment of major depressive disorder (MDD), obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), and anxiety disorders such as panic disorder and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Fluvoxamine CR (controlled release) is approved to treat social anxiety disorder.

The FDA has added a Black box warning for this drug in reference to increased risks of suicidal thinking and behavior in young adults and children. A study from the Institute for Safe Medication Practices identified reports of violence from those taking fluvoxamine as being 8.4 times higher than expected given the volume of overall reports for that drug.


Last edited by sororityalpha on Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Empty
PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 02, 2013 2:54 pm

thedragonrampant wrote:
queenfarooq wrote:
thedragonrampant wrote:
(and was diagnosed with OCD)
What is your source that Eric was officially diagnosed with OCD? I know the Luvox medication he was taking can be used to treat someone suffering from OCD but i hadn't read anything official that this is what he was diagnosed with.
Huh, I seem to sometimes get the information from the media mixed up with the official information. We don't have the treatment papers or anything from his therapist, so I stand corrected in that this would be his definitive diagnosis.

However, both of the medications he was prescribed are most commonly used for treatment of OCD or depression or severe anxiety disorders. Coupling this with Eric's own writings about why his doctor prescribed him these medications would probably indicate that they were actually part of the treatment for OCD. His entry of 4/21/98 (for instance) cites "my doctor wants to put me on medication to stop thinking about so many things and to stop getting angry", which are both really common factors that appear (in combination with one another) in OCD much more than they do in the other two things the medications are most commonly prescribed for. Combining this with other things about Eric, such as his very extreme response to Brooks's unerring lateness and the level of organisation he showcases across the board, would make a really strong case for OCD as well. The information we currently have tells me that OCD is the most likely scenario for the official diagnosis, although it is still an assumption at the end of the day and not fact like I stated before. Smile
Yes, I wondered if there was something i had never seen where he had been officially diagnosed. I have read in various articles that he was diagnosed with OCD but also read the opposite so wondered if there was anything official and where it came from.
It's certainly a mystery and would offer a great deal of insight if we knew what Eric was originally officially diagnosed with. His first medication that we are aware of was Zoloft which is primarily prescribed for depression and also Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, social anxiety and post traumatic stress among other conditions such as panic disorders. Luvox is also used to treat similar disorders. Due to the similarities in conditions these medications are used to treat we can at least narrow down what Eric may have been diagnosed with but unfortunately even then it is not 100% accurate.
Interesting that both medications can cause increased risk of suicidal thinking.

EDIT:
I posted before seeing sororityalpha's post
The information from Mark Taylor's lawsuit is very interesting.

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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 02, 2013 5:08 pm

Fluvoxamine should not be used to treat depression in patients under 18 years. In clinical trials, suicidality and hostile behavior were observed. In children with obsessive-compulsive disorder has been reported with fluvoxamine isolated over such behavioral problems. [7] The patient should be carefully monitored. There are no long-term data on the safety of fluvoxamine in terms of growth, maturation, intelligence and behavioral development in patients of this age group.

(source: german wikipedia)

Do you think Columbine didn´t happen if Eric do not take these drugs? I don´t know.

I take Venlafaxin because of my depression. And because I could not sleep I take Seroquel. My friend said all this drugs couldn´t be good for my health. But I feel better and I haven´t any side effects.
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PostSubject: Re: How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health?   How aware were Eric and Dylan of their mental health? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 02, 2013 5:33 pm

em81 wrote:
Fluvoxamine should not be used to treat depression in patients under 18 years. In clinical trials, suicidality and hostile behavior were observed. In children with obsessive-compulsive disorder has been reported with fluvoxamine isolated over such behavioral problems. [7] The patient should be carefully monitored. There are no long-term data on the safety of fluvoxamine in terms of growth, maturation, intelligence and behavioral development in patients of this age group.

(source: german wikipedia)
"Fluvoxamine is indicated for children and adolescents with OCD" is also mentioned here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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