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 Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?

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cakeman

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Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Empty
PostSubject: Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?   Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Icon_minitimeThu Aug 15, 2019 4:45 pm

Something I've been ruminating about. It's often thought that April 19 was the set date for the massacre, and there is some real evidence for it (Eric's 7 and one third days comment), but I am starting to believe the massacre was set for any time after Eric's 18th birthday. For one, it seems the only influence McVeigh had on them was a building exploding and the numbers of deaths. I don't remember any references to Waco or Ruby Ridge from either one of them. I suppose there's the possibility it was because of Lexington and Concord - Columbine were the Revolutionary War "rebels" after all, but I doubt it. Of course there's the element of being able to buy things he couldn't before, but I don't think that's it either. The guns are some evidence against this, as they bought those before Eric was 18.

It seems to me quite possible it was about Eric thinking he deserves a murder spree for being legally an adult. Once he's a man, he feels it means he's a warrior. One could mention his t-shirt in a similar way. Another possible angle is more childish, simply "I get to do what I want" when an adult, or a morbid birthday present.

In Eric's yearbook for instance, and a few times in Eric's writings, April is mentioned, but not any specific date in April.  He said they weren't sure whether to do it before or after prom, which seems to imply April 19 wasn't all that important to them; not as much as after his birthday. Dylan seems to play into Eric's thoughts sometimes and mentioned his birthday. Eric's last statement in his journal is anger at the idea of calling him a KID, and so on.

If true, this would also open back up the possibility of Eric as mastermind and Hitler's birthday; though I still don't believe in either of those, if you do, I think that too could support this notion.


Last edited by cakeman on Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FreeJust




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Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?   Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Icon_minitimeThu Aug 15, 2019 9:28 pm

I think they wanted to do it on April 19, both the same day as OKC and Hitlers birthday, but they had to put it off an extra day because Eric had to meet Manes that Monday night to get the final set of ammunition, so that pushed them back.
I don’t really think OKC or Hitlers birthday would’ve had anything to do with it — to be honest, I think that would be another one of the Columbine mysteries that would always intrigue people and they’d make a bigger deal out of...but yeah, I think 4/19 was the original planned date.
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Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?   Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Icon_minitimeThu Aug 15, 2019 9:48 pm

The only thing I wonder about which is semi related... People often cite Manes being late on the ammo or having to get the ammo on Monday as having pushed the date from Monday into Tuesday. However on one of the BT (at least according to transcripts) The tape evidence item 333 which this part was filmed when Eric was staying with Dylan overnight near the end, Eric states he wants the rain to clear out by Tuesday for his fires. That has always made me feel at least at that point prior to that Monday that the 19 was NOT the date picked. So that would mean it was not anything to do with Mark and the ammo

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PostSubject: Re: Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?   Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 16, 2019 12:06 am

Hm, forgive me as with this post I am going to repeat myself, but I'm not the best communicator and feel I've missed the mark. Also, point of clarification: The 19th is OKC (and Waco, and Lexington and Concord), the 20th is Hitler's birthday.  

And yes I know the Manes story with needing more ammo. Not denying that, at that point, it was the 19th or 20th. There's also Eric's comment that "There's 7 1/3 days left" on the April 11 tape, which at that point also places the date at the 19th. Well aware of this.

The comment about rain clearing out by Tuesday on tape 333 is an interesting comment but ambiguous. Taken to mean "Whenever the rain clears, Tuesday at the latest" it depends whether we emphasize "whenever the rain clears", or "Tuesday at the latest". If it's the first one, that does seem to show they would entertain other days. I can see what you mean if they were dead set on Tuesday, then it would rule out Manes as the reason, but I don't think you can say that from that comment alone. All it says is Tuesday at the latest, which could still mean Manes made them choose the latest date. Further, according to the transcript he says "“hope the shit clears out by Tuesday, actually Sunday". That "actually Sunday" could also mean Monday, the 19th, was in mind.

But I'm really not talking about those comments. I'm asking for readers to entertain a longer view of the planning here. Way back in May of 1998, Dylan wrote "The holy April morning of NBK". On NBK.doc (one source says this was April 26, 1998) Eric wrote "some time in April" (of 99) for when it would be done. They had April in mind very early, but I think this shows they did not have a date in April set, but some reason to pick April.

The comment I want to focus on, on that same tape you mention Lizpuff, is this one: he couldn't decide  “if we should do it before or after prom.”  Before prom would mean before that week, say on the 15th or 16th of April. So, that's pretty damning that April 19 was not definitely the date. The week before prom, April 12-16, and after, with the 19th and 20th, all seem possibly in play. Well, what's the relevant fact about those days? The relevant facts about those dates are they are after April 9, Eric's 18th birthday.

Now go back and think about Eric's KID comment, which is significant as his very last, and about Dylan, again on that same tape, saying Eric was a "soon to be 18 year old". I think it quite possible the massacre was Eric's way of finally being a man when he turned 18. Or, at least, they waited until he could legally buy some of the supplies. After that was decided they might have hit upon OKC or Hitler's birthday. In fact, I think Eric thinking about his own birthday opens back up the possibility it was chosen for Hitler's birthday.

And the reason McVeigh chose April 19 is Waco and Lexington and Concord, presumably, which they didn't seem to care about at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?   Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 16, 2019 4:09 am

Tbh, the more I think about it, I don’t really know what made them pick April period. I know there’s no way they just randomly chose it on the calendar. Maybe close to the end of the year? Close to prom (it was after but you know what I mean), close to graduation, close to finishing out. Or, Eric wanted to wait until after turning 18, which would’ve been in April of 99. You do have me thinking with his KID comment. Could be a lot to do with McVeigh, maybe wanting a higher count than him? I can’t prove that, just speculation there.

I do admit that this one makes me think.

I really am curious now why they not only picked April, but ultimately decided on April 20.

*deep thoughts ensue*
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PostSubject: Re: Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?   Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 16, 2019 5:05 am

cakeman wrote:
It seems to me quite possible it was about Eric thinking he deserves a murder spree for being legally an adult. "War is to man as maternity is to the woman" to quote Mussolini. Once he's a man, he feels it means he's a warrior. One could mention his t-shirt in a similar way. Another possible angle is more childish, simply "I get to do what I want" when an adult, or a morbid birthday present.

Perhaps it's because Eric viewed killing as the way to prove he's a "real" adult. Peter Langman touches on this in one of his books, I believe. Without weapons, Eric feels like the "weird looking Eric KID". But the weaponry, combined with actually turning 18? Maybe the murder spree was the way Eric got to feel like someone who wasn't just a dumb kid.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?   Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 16, 2019 11:25 am

Yes, that's my contention, that the main reason for the timing of the massacre is because it's his way to feel like a man, ergo was planned for after his 18th birthday. That's surely the biggest fact about April relevant to them. Puts a whole new spin on e. g. Dylan buying him gifts for his birthday. Maybe the massacre was another one.

Interesting about Langman. I don't see the weapons connection personally. I think it's that Eric doesn't feel like a man until he got to kill someone, not until he had weapons. He already had the guns, and pipe bombs long before that. Guess I need to see Langman's reasoning. I'm thinking about e. g. Fuselier's comment that Eric wanted to kill and didn't care if he died.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?   Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 16, 2019 12:00 pm

Don't forget that KMFDM released 'Adios' on April 20. And I think Eric did pen down he considered it fucking appropriate as a final last goodbye to Reb and VodKa. That was a couple of months before it became clear Adios would come out that very day (but Eric knew it would come out in April).
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PostSubject: Re: Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?   Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 16, 2019 1:41 pm

I think they post-poned it for as long as they could as their own final good bye to high school, their own graduation kind of thing.

Let the kids think everything is fine because prom just happened, people are nervous and giddy about college, graduating. I think they liked the theatrics of the shock factor, so close but they put a stop to it.

I think "the Eric becomes a man so he deserves a massacre" theory is very plausible, but I feel like that could've been anytime, too? He'd get into these moods of superiority, feeling like a god, I doubt he'd then think that he'd have to wait until he was a grown up in the eyes of the law. But I see your point!
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PostSubject: Re: Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre?   Did Eric's B-Day have more to do with the date of the massacre? Icon_minitimeFri Aug 16, 2019 4:41 pm

patogen wrote:
Don't forget that KMFDM released 'Adios' on April 20. And I think Eric did pen down he considered it fucking appropriate as a final last goodbye to Reb and VodKa. That was a couple of months before it became clear Adios would come out that very day (but Eric knew it would come out in April).
Yeah, exactly. There's lot of references to simply "some time in April", and I find it hard to imagine what that was about other than his birthday. If it was  simply for the end of the school year or to have the most time, you think they'd have said some time in May. If it was the anniversary of OKC or Hitler's bday, you think they'd have not kept it vague.

So then I wonder if it was actually significant - and Eric's KID comment, for one, makes it hard to believe it wasn't, or if it was just to make it easier to legally obtain supplies, which September's point about "Why would he care about what the law says?" might support.  But the thing most hindered by that would be purchasing guns, and they did that anyway.

If it was for some shock factor of 'after prom', how do you square that they said April for a long time, and as it approached Eric said he wasn't sure whether to do it before or after prom? It seems to me that says they had chosen April before they had even considered prom. It might explain why they ultimately chose the week after prom, but they already thought, whether before or after prom, it's gonna be in April. That cries out for an explanation, and Eric's birthday is the easiest.
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