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 Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?

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PostSubject: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 9:42 am

So here's a thought that occurred to me sometime ago during my half hour commute from work the other day. I browse the forums time to time, as I'm interested in the case. You have two very angry teenagers seeking revenge for slights, real and perceived, against their peers and the world.

The current consensus around here I would say is that eric was the leader and dylan was the suicidal follower wanting to die. But my hypothetical question is what if we're wrong about that? What if they dynamic between the two was actually switched. That Dylan was the angry leader, and Eric was the follower?

For example, Dylan discussed the possibility of orchestrating such a shooting as far back as '97, according to his journals, alongside a likely a female he liked, to go out like NBK along the likes of Mickey and Mallory in the movie. Eric doesn't even bring it up until after the January arrests in april of 98.

More examples why, Dylan was apparently more liked by their group of friends, got invited out more than Eric. Eric being desperate starts following some of the trends that Dylan follows like black clothing for example. So the way I see things could be that Dylan was the angry, lets destroy the world kind of person. But sort of lazy and didn't exactly get how to procede and eric was the ambitious follower who wanted to please his best friend by acquring the weapons and constructing the bombs. (Don't worry, I'll take care of it mentality). Eric was the one desperate for friends and approval and every bomb built was another nod of approval.








(I'm not much of an essayist but I hope I sort of got out what I meant by angry leader Dylan and eager to please ambitious follower Eric)
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 9:43 am

I wouldn't take the journals at face value either, eric left what he wanted the world to see. Not how it actually was
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 5:29 pm

Their home videos would indicate that Eric was the leader. Hitmen for Hire: Eric does all the talking to the customer. Radioactive Clothing: Eric does the majority of the talking in the car and is first into the basement while Dylan follows behind. Carwash Commercial: Eric, offscreen, issues instructions to Dylan. Cafeteria footage: Dylan descends the steps behind Eric.

Eric had the personality of a leader. He liked spearheading plans and projects and having other people follow him. Dylan on the other hand seems like an "I'm cool with whatever you guys wanna do" kind of person. He was happy just going along with stuff.

As far as the shooting itself, without hearing what The Boys were saying to eachother, it's difficult to ascertain if either Boy was giving orders or suggestions for what to do next. Since both Boys were winging it and just causing as much damage as possible I doubt there was much communication between the two.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 6:38 pm

I have always imagined in the first stages of this idea coming to fruition, there were jokes at first and then Dylan may have confided in Eric a little bit about what he was feeling and how angry he was. Then maybe one day that were talking "hypothetically" but then went about their business as usual then a week later Eric had a notebook of plans and detailed descriptions on times, how to build bombs etc... I think Eric had the follow through.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 6:39 pm

I tend to think that Dylan just kind of used Eric to die. I think it was more Eric's idea than Dylan's. After people have seen the basement tapes they realize that they equally took part in it. But i believe that Dylan kind of had this facade up when he was around Eric, especially on those tapes.
I think that a majority of people that were spared during the shooting were done so by Dylan, and i think him hooting and hollering ties back to when Sue says that as she was watching the basement tapes it seemed like Dylan was grasping at straws to find things to be mad about as Eric told him "more rage." I think Dylan tried to keep his rage up during the shooting because it was easier for him to kill that way, but his humane side still showed and he let people go because of this.

In Sue's book she talks about how Dylan told her once that Eric was crazy and she talks about Dylan distancing himself from Eric. She also talks about how Dylan gave Brooks Eric's website info the day before the diversion intake. I think Dylan knew that Brooks would tell his parents and I think that he wanted Eric caught. I doubt that there is a coincidence in when he decided to share this information.
Sue also mentions a journal entry of Dylan's from January 1999 where he talks about having a choice of either killing himself or going nbk with Eric.

I don't think Eric or Dylan were necessarily followers, i think they just used each other to their own advantages and it was just a dangerous and unhealthy combination of friendship.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 05, 2019 10:48 pm

My thoughts on this based purely on the physical evidence was that Dylan was the planter of the seed.

I don't think Eric was necessarily suicidal. Not like Dylan. The NBK thing seems to be Dylan's idea as it appears his hope was to do a Mickey/Mallory scenario. So I think Dylan coined it.

These two weren't emotional enough to open up about their feelings to one another so I suspect it was a series of comments that lead them to bond and plan. A common understanding of one another if you will. My guess would be it was really brought out after their van break in arrest. They probably talked about it and things that made them mad. My guess would be it evolved and Dylan likely let out nuggets feelings that got into Eric's head.

Dylan was extremely lazy when it came to this but Eric was motivated. He had a focused mind and was very goal oriented.

To clarify I don't believe that Dylan wasn't motivated to die he wasn't motivated to plan mass murder even if he wanted it. Eric was his compliment to it. I can't say that Dylan consciously used Eric, I think Dylan was content to let Eric plan it which is what gives the appearance as Eric as the leader.

To be clear, every bit evidence seems to suggest this idea was in Dylan's head before Eric's, he was just too fucking lazy to plan it. Not to mention he couldn't find a girl suicidal enough like him to Not fear the Reaper.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 10, 2019 4:57 pm

I wouldn't say the consensus here is that Eric was the leader and Dylan the follower, but that's the consensus in the popular consciousness due to Cullen, for sure. This place is very critical of Cullen, at least on those points. I think it probably boils down to Eric was older, he killed more, and his journal talks more about the massacre, which shouldn't be enough.

I for one, think it's more plausible that Dylan was the leader than it was that Eric was the leader. Though, I'm not saying I'm convinced either was.

Indeed, Dylan wrote about the massacre first, and Eric seemed to copy Dylan, e. g. the trench coat, 'self awareness', Lost Highway,and such. Why it's hard to trust the journals in my opinion. Not so much that he was "writing for an audience", though that too, but who knows how much of it was written after conversations with Dylan. I agree that Dylan used Eric to an extent. Dylan's entries in Eric's yearbook seem to be overdoing the Doom and KMFDM references.  Sue says something similar is going on with the tapes. Also, Eric was the new kid from elsewhere trying to fit in. Dylan wasn't. At least to me, that also makes it more likely Eric was copying Dylan.

As for "every bomb built was another nod of approval", I've speculated before that Dylan was the bomb tech between the two. I don't think we know of any bombs Eric built alone. And during the massacre, who checks on the bombs from outside? Dylan does. Who goes closer to the bombs on the cafeteria CCTV footage? Dylan does. Who has the bigger car bomb? Dylan does. Who was the sound engineer, built his own computer, etc, seemingly the more 'tech savvy' of the two? Dylan was.

While Eric probably in fact had the better weapons, and probably why he killed more, I don't think they knew that. In the Doom universe, Dylan had the better weapons. Eric had the regular, Doom 1, pump action shotgun. Dylan had the double barrel, Doom 2, "super shotgun". Dylan had the TEC-9, the variant of the AB-10, which Eric talked so much about.  If their clothing was inspired by Doom, Eric in white was dressed more like tan-clothed former human, and Dylan in black was dressed like shotgun guy, who is deadlier/has more HP or whatever. Also, if you believe their plan was to shoot people going into the parking lot, Dylan's the one who descended the stairs and the only one who could shoot people fleeing into the parking lot.

Dylan's also the one snapping his fingers for Eric to hurry up just before the massacre on the tapes, supposedly. There's also that idea of "Yes, Eric did all the work. Who does the work, you or your boss?" Dylan also enters the library first, so the "are you with me?" was probably him. Then again, the massacre happened in April almost surely because of Eric's birthday being in April.


Last edited by cakeman on Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 10, 2019 5:03 pm

The idea may have been Dylan's but Eric appears to have been the leader.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 10, 2019 5:08 pm

spishakwax wrote:
She also talks about how Dylan gave Brooks Eric's website info the day before the diversion intake. I think Dylan knew that Brooks would tell his parents and I think that he wanted Eric caught. I doubt that there is a coincidence in when he decided to share this information.

That's a myth actually and it really makes no sense for Dylan to ruin the plan like that. Brooks Brown's brother discovered the website.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 10, 2019 7:59 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I would love to hear your source for this information

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 10, 2019 8:56 pm

spishakwax wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I would love to hear your source for this information

There is a 2004 report which concludes that the 'concerned citizen' who told the police about the website in August 1997 was Aaron Brown, while Browns reported it again in March 1998. Aaron and Brooks denied knowing about Eric's website prior 1998 (when Dylan supposedly told Brooks), but Aaron clearly knew about it in 1997. And the note with the link had both Aaron's and Brooks' handwriting. I guess there isn't a proof that Dylan didn't tell him, I just don't believe Brooks' words that he did.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 10, 2019 9:57 pm

beautifullyunconventional wrote:
spishakwax wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I would love to hear your source for this information

There is a 2004 report which concludes that the 'concerned citizen' who told the police about the website in August 1997 was Aaron Brown, while Browns reported it again in March 1998. Aaron and Brooks denied knowing about Eric's website prior 1998 (when Dylan supposedly told Brooks), but Aaron clearly knew about it in 1997. And the note with the link had both Aaron's and Brooks' handwriting. I guess there isn't a proof that Dylan didn't tell him, I just don't believe Brooks' words that he did.

Did Eric have more than one website or was it just multiple profiles on AOL?

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 10, 2019 10:22 pm

spishakwax wrote:
beautifullyunconventional wrote:
spishakwax wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I would love to hear your source for this information

There is a 2004 report which concludes that the 'concerned citizen' who told the police about the website in August 1997 was Aaron Brown, while Browns reported it again in March 1998. Aaron and Brooks denied knowing about Eric's website prior 1998 (when Dylan supposedly told Brooks), but Aaron clearly knew about it in 1997. And the note with the link had both Aaron's and Brooks' handwriting. I guess there isn't a proof that Dylan didn't tell him, I just don't believe Brooks' words that he did.

Did Eric have more than one website or was it just multiple profiles on AOL?

I think it was the same AOL site that went from rebel missions to threatening to kill 'especially a few people, like Brooks Brown', but I'm not 100% sure
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 10, 2019 10:41 pm

I just looked into it and the 1997 report is for Eric's rebdoomer AOL account and the 1998 report is for both rebdoomer and rebdomine.

I'm also confused because the report that you linked states that the windshield incident happened in February of 1997 but according to No Easy Answers it happened in winter of junior year and Sue writes about a phone call she received from Judy about the incident in 1998.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 12:07 am

spishakwax wrote:
I just looked into it and the 1997 report is for Eric's rebdoomer AOL account and the 1998 report is for both rebdoomer and rebdomine.

I'm also confused because the report that you linked states that the windshield incident happened in February of 1997 but according to No Easy Answers it happened in winter of junior year and Sue writes about a phone call she received from Judy about the incident in 1998.
That too is generally accepted in these circles as a lie Brown told to seem closer to them than he was. Nate Dykeman, and not just Eric, who ofc ruined his credibility, called him a liar. Jeff Kass also accepts it was Aaron who found the site, fwiw.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 12:50 am

Are you referring to the windshield incident? Regardless if Brooks has lied about things, he's still provided some very useful things. Such as the frankenstein roast and the behind blackjack footage. (which are actually part of the same video). I tend to look at the facts other than what people have to say about someone's character. There are lots of things that some well respected researchers have gotten wrong, so i like to do my own research and create my own thoughts and opinions.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 12:59 am

spishakwax wrote:
Are you referring to the windshield incident? Regardless if Brooks has lied about things, he's still provided some very useful things. Such as the frankenstein roast and the behind blackjack footage. (which are actually part of the same video). I tend to look at the facts other than what people have to say about someone's character. There are lots of things that some well respected researchers have gotten wrong, so i like to do my own research and create my own thoughts and opinions.
Before mentioning Jeff I'm talking about the windshield, yeah. By all means look at the facts. Just telling you, the windshield and the Dylan giving him the website are the things mentioned to corroborate what they said about Brooks.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 2:45 am

Ok, but they're 2 different websites... Mentioned in different reports at different times. And i don't know why Sue would lie about getting that phone call from Judy... And Wayne even wrote about getting phone calls about the windshield. Maybe I'm just lost in regards to what you're trying to tell me.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 3:45 am

I am trying to tell you the received wisdom, that what you find in No Easy Answers is considered less than truthful to make Brooks appear closer to them than he was; that the "torn scrap paper" was from Aaron, not Dylan. Kass and Krabbe agree with this much as does the above report. I don't think any distinction is made between rebdoomer, rebdomine, or rebldomakr. Presumably they knew his screen names, and if you knew one url, you knew to replace that for the others.  

Would be more than happy to see you contradict it. I don't know why Dylan would tell him about it, though. As for Sue, I don't know the timeline, but if it contradicts it, then one might add that she copes a lot for obvious reasons and believes e. g. Cullen's narrative to make Dylan appear better than he was, so I'm not positive that's a smoking gun. I believe Wayne's notes also cover 1997, and that Eric had his license by 1997, being born in 1981, so he wouldn't have even needed a ride from Brooks in 1998. I know it's been discussed here several times by those who know more about this than I do.
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Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 4:44 am

cakeman wrote:
I believe Wayne's notes also cover 1997, and that Eric had his license by 1997, being born in 1981, so he wouldn't have even needed a ride from Brooks in 1998. I know it's been discussed here several times by those who know more about this than I do.

The windshield incident happened in 1997, not 1998. Brooks and Sue are mistaken.
In his book, Brooks says that Eric, Dylan and Zach did the Rebel Mission targeting Brooks' Mercedes and Nick Baumgart's house shortly after the windshield incident.
According to the Attorney General Ken Salazar's Report of the Investigation into the 1997 Directed Report, the windshield incident occurred in February of 1997.
This is consistent with Wayne Harris' journal which first lists the windshield incident on 2/28 (he doesn't provide the year).
According to Salazar's report, the Brown's filed a damage to property report on March 2, 1997.
On 3/3 (no year provided), Wayne Harris writes about damage to Brooks' car and toilet paper and an egg at Nick's.
According to Salazar's report, on 4/17/97, Deputy Walsh went to the Brown's house for an "ongoing juvenile problem with neighborhood kid"
On 4/19 Wayne Harris writes about receiving a phone message from Deputy Walsh about damage to a tree at the Brown's house. The note says that Walsh wouldn't be available again until 4/23; so Wayne notes he left a message and Walsh returned his call on 4/24. They spoke about arbitration and a mediator for the ongoing issue with the Brown's.  
Wayne has 1 more entry for April when he tried to contact the Brown's and then his next entry is from 1/29/98, the night of the van break in.

It makes complete sense that 1997 was the year the windshield incident occurred. The van break in was January 29, 1998.
If Eric had nicked Brooks' windshield only a month after this and it had been reported to police, Wayne would have been a lot more uptight and on Eric's case then he seemed to be. Something like that could have gotten Eric into serious trouble given the other charges he was facing. Wayne's notes indicate he was annoyed (and in my opinion almost more with the Brown's than with Eric), not frantic. I think he'd be making notes about lawyers if this had happened after Eric's arrest.
Also, Eric and Dylan weren't likely to have gone on any Rebel Missions right after the van break in. For one, they were both grounded and were not allowed to see each other for a little while. And, two, they'd have to be pretty freaking stupid to risk getting caught when they were trying to get into Diversion rather than have to face more serious consequences for the van break in.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 5:14 am

Thank you [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 5:56 am

cakeman wrote:
I am trying to tell you the received wisdom, that what you find in No Easy Answers is considered less than truthful to make Brooks appear closer to them than he was; that the "torn scrap paper" was from Aaron, not Dylan. Kass and Krabbe agree with this much as does the above report. I don't think any distinction is made between rebdoomer, rebdomine, or rebldomakr. Presumably they knew his screen names, and if you knew one url, you knew to replace that for the others.  

Would be more than happy to see you contradict it. I don't know why Dylan would tell him about it, though.


I don't know when rebdomine became a page, but it is not included in the 1997 report. It's possible Aaron and Brooks didn't know of its existence during that time, if it did in fact even have those writings then, or was even a page at all.
As for why Dylan would have wanted to... Maybe he had been trying to distance himself from Eric. Dylan had known Brooks for a really long time, and he probably knew what Eric was capable of. Maybe he was looking out for his friend. Maybe he had also been upset because Eric tried to blame the break in on him. Maybe it was a cry for help. Considering it was right before diversion intake. I really don't know, there could be a lot of reasons why. But I am going to stick with my original thought on this one.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 3:44 pm

It doesn't have to be included in the 1997 report for Aaron to have also been the source for it in March of 1998, and seems like straw grasping about Dylan. That Dylan was so close with Brooks is exactly what's being called into question in the first place, and he would have ruined his chance at suicide. March of 1998 is a very good guess for when they come up with the massacre, given Dylan is writing about NBK in February and Eric in April.

Anyway, another thing for Dylan as the bomb tech - that he seemed the lazy one and the very fact that the bombs didn't work.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 5:13 pm

spishakwax wrote:
I just looked into it and the 1997 report is for Eric's rebdoomer AOL account and the 1998 report is for both rebdoomer and rebdomine.

Thank you for clarification. Either Aaron didn't know about rebdomine at that time or it didn't exist yet. However, I still think that since we have a proof that Aaron knew about Eric posting stuff on his account before (even though he denied it), and he was even concerned enough to report it to the police, it's possible that he found out about the second account in March 1998 the same way he found out about the first one. It seems more plausible to me because we know that Aaron was worried about Eric's online rants before, while on the other hand, we only have Brooks saying Dylan gave him the link.

One thing that still isn't clear to me though is the scrap of paper with the url. The report said that it had Aaron handwriting in it. Is it the same piece of paper that Brooks claimed Dylan handed him, and took it with him when Browns went to the police? Sorry, English is my second language and I couldn't understand that part properly.
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Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 7:42 pm

cakeman wrote:
It doesn't have to be included in the 1997 report for Aaron to have also been the source for it in March of 1998, and seems like straw grasping about Dylan. That Dylan was so close with Brooks is exactly what's being called into question in the first place, and he would have ruined his chance at suicide. March of 1998 is a very good guess for when they come up with the massacre, given Dylan is writing about NBK in February and Eric in April.

Anyway, another thing for Dylan as the bomb tech - that he seemed the lazy one and the very fact that the bombs didn't work.

You're right, it could have been Aaron, but it could have been Dylan. There's not really any hard evidence supporting either claim. It's kind of up for speculation at this point. But I am going to continue to believe Brooks' claim until someone can clearly support the opposing one.

If Dylan really wanted to die so badly in March of 1998 he could have done it without Eric's help. I don't think he really needed Eric's help in getting a gun and besides, there are many other ways he could have killed himself. After getting the gun he writes about having a choice to either kill himself or go NBK with Eric. I just think Dylan didnt necessarily agree with some of what Eric did or said, I think theres a good chance, that whether or not he was as good as friends with Brooks as Brooks may claim, he still could've looked at it and thought something like "this is messed up and a little too far, i should probably warn Brooks."

Either way, it's a bit odd that it was reported the day before diversion intake and i find this to be a bit too coincidental.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 9:44 pm

beautifullyunconventional wrote:
spishakwax wrote:
I just looked into it and the 1997 report is for Eric's rebdoomer AOL account and the 1998 report is for both rebdoomer and rebdomine.

Thank you for clarification. Either Aaron didn't know about rebdomine at that time or it didn't exist yet. However, I still think that since we have a proof that Aaron knew about Eric posting stuff on his account before (even though he denied it), and he was even concerned enough to report it to the police, it's possible that he found out about the second account in March 1998 the same way he found out about the first one. It seems more plausible to me because we know that Aaron was worried about Eric's online rants before, while on the other hand, we only have Brooks saying Dylan gave him the link.

One thing that still isn't clear to me though is the scrap of paper with the url. The report said that it had Aaron handwriting in it. Is it the same piece of paper that Brooks claimed Dylan handed him, and took it with him when Browns went to the police? Sorry, English is my second language and I couldn't understand that part properly.
It is confusing. It seems to say they took the scrap of paper from 98 and pinned it to the 97 report. Maybe the 97 report had some handwriting for comparison or something. Or maybe just both pieces of evidence in one place.

spishakwax wrote:
cakeman wrote:
It doesn't have to be included in the 1997 report for Aaron to have also been the source for it in March of 1998, and seems like straw grasping about Dylan. That Dylan was so close with Brooks is exactly what's being called into question in the first place, and he would have ruined his chance at suicide. March of 1998 is a very good guess for when they come up with the massacre, given Dylan is writing about NBK in February and Eric in April.

Anyway, another thing for Dylan as the bomb tech - that he seemed the lazy one and the very fact that the bombs didn't work.

You're right, it could have been Aaron, but it could have been Dylan. There's not really any hard evidence supporting either claim. It's kind of up for speculation at this point. But I am going to continue to believe Brooks' claim until someone can clearly support the opposing one.

If Dylan really wanted to die so badly in March of 1998 he could have done it without Eric's help. I don't think he really needed Eric's help in getting a gun and besides, there are many other ways he could have killed himself. After getting the gun he writes about having a choice to either kill himself or go NBK with Eric. I just think Dylan didnt necessarily agree with some of what Eric did or said, I think theres a good chance, that whether or not he was as good as friends with Brooks as Brooks may claim, he still could've looked at it and thought something like "this is messed up and a little too far, i should probably warn Brooks."

Either way, it's a bit odd that it was reported the day before diversion intake and i find this to be a bit too coincidental.
Well I can't change your mind from what you want to believe, and I don't see the significance of the diversion intake. Practically all of Dylan's journal is about him wanting to commit suicide and being unable to do so. He says going NBK with Eric is a way to break free, i. e. commit suicide. Supposedly he asked his mother for a gun, which seems like he needs some help in getting one. Don't know which entry you're referring to. Don't know of an entry dated November of 98. Don't see any reason to "just think he didn't agree" which just seems like Cullen-tier making him the good guy, and downright bizarre for him to think anything is messed up and a little too far given what he ended up doing, and NBK seeming to be his idea in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 11, 2019 10:02 pm

It was a full year before the attack. He could have had a different mindset then. The only person who really knows is Dylan. Dylan would have been able to commit suicide if he had really wanted to. He was probably just being angsty and whiny, and probably too lazy to do it or maybe a part of him didn't want to die. I also said he didn't need Eric's help getting a gun, not that he didn't need anyone else's. They obviously needed Robyn's help. What would have stopped him from asking Robyn himself without Eric's involvement?

Many people who knew Dylan well say that he was a good kid. I don't think that he was who he became.

Regardless, I'm pretty done debating this topic with you. There's really no sense in arguing over things that are completely left up to speculation, especially with the way you are going about it. Sure there's little hints at things, but none of them are really facts. We don't know for sure which one came up with NBK, we just know that Dylan wrote about it first.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeMon Oct 14, 2019 1:50 am

spishakwax wrote:
I tend to think that Dylan just kind of used Eric to die. I think it was more Eric's idea than Dylan's. After people have seen the basement tapes they realize that they equally took part in it. But i believe that Dylan kind of had this facade up when he was around Eric, especially on those tapes.  
I think that a majority of people that were spared during the shooting were done so by Dylan, and i think him hooting and hollering ties back to when Sue says that as she was watching the basement tapes it seemed like Dylan was grasping at straws to find things to be mad about as Eric told him "more rage." I think Dylan tried to keep his rage up during the shooting because it was easier for him to kill that way, but his humane side still showed and he let people go because of this.

In Sue's book she talks about how Dylan told her once that Eric was crazy and she talks about Dylan distancing himself from Eric. She also talks about how Dylan gave Brooks Eric's website info the day before the diversion intake. I think Dylan knew that Brooks would tell his parents and I think that he wanted Eric caught. I doubt that there is a coincidence in when he decided to share this information.
Sue also mentions a journal entry of Dylan's from January 1999 where he talks about having a choice of either killing himself or going nbk with Eric.

I don't think Eric or Dylan were necessarily followers, i think they just used each other to their own advantages and it was just a dangerous and unhealthy combination of friendship.
Do not take Sue's book as completely factual. She made mistakes in her book, and some of the things she wrote were just sources she used from previous Columbine books with misinformation, such as Ralph Larkin's book, and Brooks' Brown. Also out of no disrespect to Sue, but Dylan was her son. She will always love her son regardless if he was a piece of shit murderer. In her eyes that's not Dylan, so she will forever be bias. and of course paint Eric as the evil mastermind, and got Dylan to go along with it when that simply isn't true.

Both Dylan and Eric spared a few of people. Eric had just as much of a choice to kill John Savage or Evan Todd, but chose not to. He let them go. Both boys spared those who actually spoke to them back. It felt harder for them to kill those who spoke to them as part of their subconscious kicked in, and realized these were actual humans, and they were killing kids.

The whole Dylan giving Brooks Brown Eric's website is a bunch of bullshit. That reeks of complete and utter bullshit. For one thing, Dylan nor Brooks were even talking to each other during their junior year. When Brooks stopped talking to Eric, he also stopped talking to Dylan, and Zach in February 1997. In October '97 Dylan, Eric, and Zack vandalized Brooks Brown' house, and Eric posted about it with no shame on his website. In that summer of '97 a "concerned citizen" called the JCSO, and reported to them regarding Eric Harris website that posted death threats to Brooks Brown, and how to build bombs, etc. That "concerned citizen" was Aaron Brown. Brooks' younger brother. Brooks already knew about that website in the summer of 1997. The Browns already knew about that website way before the start of the Diversion Intake. That alone tells you how much the story is bullshit. Brooks made that up, because he has a knack for making shit up, and trying to appear closer to the killers than he actually was. In reality Dylan and Brooks stopped talking to each other in 10th grade, and did not speak again until 2 years later in January '99 when he had class with Eric and Dylan,, and when both Dylan and Brooks were both in a play, and they built up their bond with each other.

Both Eric and Dylan used each other to get what they so desired. There was no leader and there was no follower. There was no poor Dylan or poor Eric going along with the mastermind, because they felt they had to. They did it because they waned to. Eric was more of a planner, and was the one who developed plans to attack Columbine High School. Dylan more than likely put the idea into Eric's head, because Dylan was the one who originally spoke about shooting up the school alone, and then later on he wanted to shoot up the school with a girl and make it "NBK". The "NBK" nickname for Columbine was probably from Dylan too.
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Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeMon Oct 14, 2019 2:16 am

lol wrote:
Both boys spared those who actually spoke to them back. It felt harder for them to kill those who spoke to them as part of their subconscious kicked in, and realized these were actual humans, and they were killing kids.

Lance Kirklin was shot in the face after begging for help. Kacey Ruegsegge was told "quit your birching", after getting shot. I don't think this really holds water.

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeMon Oct 14, 2019 2:33 am

QuestionMark wrote:
lol wrote:
Both boys spared those who actually spoke to them back. It felt harder for them to kill those who spoke to them as part of their subconscious kicked in, and realized these were actual humans, and they were killing kids.

Lance Kirklin was shot in the face after begging for help. Kacey Ruegsegge was told "quit your birching", after getting shot. I don't think this really holds water.

Agreed. Dylan most definitely intended Lance to die after that shot, too. Also, Isaiah begged to see his mom and Eric killed him.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeMon Oct 14, 2019 8:32 am

lol wrote:

Do not take Sue's book as completely factual. She made mistakes in her book, and some of the things she wrote were just sources she used from previous Columbine books with misinformation, such as Ralph Larkin's book, and Brooks' Brown. Also out of no disrespect to Sue, but Dylan was her son. She will always love her son regardless if he was a piece of shit murderer. In her eyes that's not Dylan, so she will forever be bias. and of course paint Eric as the evil mastermind, and got Dylan to go along with it when that simply isn't true.

Both Dylan and Eric spared a few of people. Eric had just as much of a choice to kill John Savage or Evan Todd, but chose not to. He let them go. Both boys spared those who actually spoke to them back. It felt harder for them to kill those who spoke to them as part of their subconscious kicked in, and realized these were actual humans, and they were killing kids.

The whole Dylan giving Brooks Brown Eric's website is a bunch of bullshit. That reeks of complete and utter bullshit. For one thing, Dylan nor Brooks were even talking to each other during their junior year. When Brooks stopped talking to Eric, he also stopped talking to Dylan, and Zach in February 1997. In October '97 Dylan, Eric, and Zack vandalized Brooks Brown' house, and Eric posted about it with no shame on his website. In that summer of '97 a "concerned citizen" called the JCSO, and reported to them regarding Eric Harris website that posted death threats to Brooks Brown, and how to build bombs, etc. That "concerned citizen" was Aaron Brown. Brooks' younger brother. Brooks already knew about that website in the summer of 1997. The Browns already knew about that website way before the start of the Diversion Intake. That alone tells you how much the story is bullshit. Brooks made that up, because he has a knack for making shit up, and trying to appear closer to the killers than he actually was. In reality Dylan and Brooks stopped talking to each other in 10th grade, and did not speak again until 2 years later in January '99 when he had class with Eric and Dylan,, and when both Dylan and Brooks were both in a play, and they built up their bond with each other.

I know that Sue makes mistakes in her book, and that she is biased. A big problem with researching is trusting other researcher's findings because they've been deemed an 'expert' or seem to really know what they're talking about, this happens all too often, which is why I don't automatically take everything as facts from those who have researched the subject. People make mistakes. Larkin was clearly wrong about Dylan filming the Eric Inside Columbine video.

I definitely do not know enough about the finding of the websites, the rebel missions or the falling out parts of what happened leading up to the shooting. It hasn't exactly been my area of study. I don't know where I stand on this topic until I research more about this myself, but I'm still leaning towards it coming from Dylan.

However, I believe that when Dylan offered Evan Todd up to Eric, Eric likely wasn't thinking clearly as he had taken shotgun recoil to the face resulting in a broken nose and had been losing blood, as well as this being around the time that "the adrenaline had worn off".

In their senior year, I do believe that Brooks had gotten a bit closer to Dylan than he had been in the recent years. I also believe him about burying the hatchet with Eric and that Eric had let him go before the shooting for several different reasons (I know there's people that don't believe this either). Dylan and Brooks started talking again after sort of drifting apart while Dylan was working on the sound for the Frankenstein play and Brooks was cast as the monster. In his book, Brooks writes about talking to Dylan again during the rehearsals and there are videos to back this up. The Frankenstein Roast video, which included Zack, was filmed on October 30th, 1998, with the Behind Blackjack video being part of an introduction to this video, also filmed in October 1998. Brooks was also the one who provided the footage of Dylan walking down the steps at Columbine carrying his hat and trench coat. Sue writes that Judy Brown threw the wrap party for the play and took a photo of Dylan laughing at the Frankenstein Roast videos with everyone else at the party. I doubt that Sue would lie about the party or the photo.

There is also evidence that Brooks, Zack, and Dylan worked on Bye Bye Birdie in Spring 1997 as well as The Music Man in February 1998. But it is possible that they weren't "friends" at either of these times.


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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeMon Oct 14, 2019 5:04 pm

It seems an article of faith among some, both that Eric's nose affected his thinking any great deal and their stopping shooting had anything to do with their adrenaline wearing off or some other queer, private fact about their mental life.  We don't even know if the nose was broken, given what he did to his head. 

I think both Evan being let go and their stopping shooting is accounted for by the failure of a bomb at 11:35, the same bomb they'd been speaking about the whole time in the library. I find the significance of the exchange with Evan to be that Dylan said he was letting him live when e. g. Bree was told by Eric everybody was going to die when they get blown up, and Evan doesn't have to run in order to live like John. Something changed between those. Then they leave to mess with the bomb. The avatar is the clock off that one, apparently set to 35.

The rest is more interesting.  I find that Brooks being let go story to be more plausible than the windshield and the website stories being told accurately, though I sometimes question it. Don't think anything profound needed to explain telling a guy to get out of the way when you have ten minutes before bombs go off and you need to be geared up and in position, etc and don't have time for chat and also can't explain.  Not sure I know which footage you mean. Carrying his trench coat? Or does it mean that few seconds of Dylan walking down the steps with sunglasses on, that was Brooks filming?
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower?   Hypothetical - Was Dylan the leader and Eric an Ambitious Follower? Icon_minitimeMon Oct 14, 2019 8:09 pm

Note that I said, "I believe" and that I also put "the adrenaline had worn off" in quotations. Again, not my area of study.

In the video where Dylan is walking down the steps with his sunglasses on, he is carrying his trench coat and hat. I don't know if Brooks was filming for sure, but he is the one who provided the footage.

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