E/D's last minute

Hello all! I am new to the site, so forgive me if this has been covered, but I was thinking yesterday about what everyone might think about how much time (if any) separated the self-inflicted gunshots of Eric and Dylan.  Any thoughts? In terms of what went done right before the suicide, I don't think that much, if anything, was said between the two boys.  This is for several reasons, not the least of which was the blaring sound of the alarm system, but also because Eric and Dylan had their own set of hand signals, in this case, the gun pointed to the head signaled it was time to commit suicide.

I imagine the scenario playing out wherein Eric signaled that it was time to do the deed, and he and Dylan took their positions in the library.  It is quite possible the two had already discussed at length exactly how they would kill themselves if indeed they were not shot by police or SWAT, so there wouldn't be any confusion about the "end game." I have a feeling Dylan may have even given the infamous "one, two, three" countdown, but NOT verbally, (because of the aforementioned noise) but via hand signals (his right hand, obviously) to indicate the time to shoot themselves.  What I have been thinking about is if Dylan may have actually waited a second (or two, or three) until after Eric shot himself, just to "make sure" that Eric was going to go through with it, and Dylan then willingly joined him in death.  I just have an inkling that Dylan may have waited just long enough to see (or at least hear) the gunshot before committing to the act himself, maybe even taking into account that he truly (as he always believed) was ALONE and the final act was his decision solely.

Any thoughts?

Here are a few threads where we discussed the suicides. I am sure there are a few other threads as well. I will add them if I find more.

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Thank you very much! I still would like to hear some of the thoughts about my other questions. I really doubt much was said at all between the two, I think they just felt deflated and defeated and wanted it over on their own terms.

I like your ideas but it all seems like alot of speculation. Not that I blame you because its all we can do. Truth is we have no idea. Jeffco may know more but if they do they'd never tell us.

I think they shot at the cops until they were running low on ammo, retreated to the back corner and Eric sat down by the bookcase and shot himself in the head with Arlene while Dylan was making a pile of personal items, and lighting a final Molotov cocktail. Just after lighting it Dylan went down on his knees facing Eric and shot himself with the Tec 9.

If they said anything before, it was probably along the lines of Dylan saying he was low on ammo, Eric noting the cops had probably entered the school, then Eric signaling the spot.

My ideas are based on the other threads that Jenn provided. I think the various threads have done a great job of puzzling out what probably happened.

I see the various threads have done a pretty good job, but I have a hard time believing that there was really that much time between the two suicides. Your thoughts suggest there was a fair amount of time between Eric and Dylan killing themselves. I find that interesting as I had not thought about that, I sort of envisioned Dylan lighting the molotov and then kneeling down with Eric around the same time in a sort of communal type of thing.
My original question for this post was really the question of how much time elapsed between the two suicidal gunshots. I agree with gustopoet that not much was said as some have talked about, either bitching about the failure, or congratulating each other.

ThoughtBox wrote:

I see the various threads have done a pretty good job, but I have a hard time believing that there was really that much time between the two suicides.  Your thoughts suggest there was a fair amount of time between Eric and Dylan killing themselves. I find that interesting as I had not thought about that, I sort of envisioned Dylan lighting the molotov and then kneeling down with Eric around the same time in a sort of communal type of thing.  
My original question for this post was really the question of how much time elapsed between the two suicidal gunshots.  I agree with gustopoet that not much was said as some have talked about, either bitching about the failure, or congratulating each other.

Eric shot himself while Dylan was lighting the Molotov, then Dylan shot himself an instant later. Maybe enough time passed for Dylan to see Eric's head blown off, or maybe he just saw a flash. I don't think we'll ever know. One thing is clear: that both boys had given thought to how to kill themselves: Eric wanted to be sure he'd die and Dylan was ritualistic, almost religious and patterned himself (I think) after the suicide of Mickey's father in Natural Born Killers.

Just other day I saw where Dylan had scribbled "Do you believe in fate?" in one of his journals or notebooks.

BTW, I don't think the boys necessarily felt that they had failed. Yes, the bombs didn't go off, but just going through with NBK at all would have been an accomplishment for them. I think among all of their other raging emotions at that last minute they both probably felt at least a small sense of closure when they killed themselves. Also, they probably thought they killed way more people than they actually did kill... and they managed to stay together right through to the very end. Most importantly they believed they were escaping the "hell on earth" world of zombies in Abercrombie and Fitch gear. They may have even been somewhat hopeful that death would take them somewhere better. Or at least to oblivion and an end to self-hatred, misanthropy, and pain.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Thank you very much! I still would like to hear some of the thoughts about my other questions. I really doubt much was said at all between the two, I think they just felt deflated and defeated and wanted it over on their own terms.

No problem, feel free to make any new threads you'd like but I just wanted to show you some threads were we discussed similar topics. The suicides, along with the Cafeteria bombs are my two favorite topics, so I always enjoy reading and participating in those threads.

I always thought they pulled the trigger at the same time. I don't know why, but I just find it hard to believe that one of them watched the other die first. 

The aspect of the suicides has always interested me because my grandfather ended his life that way. My father was barely a toddler when it happened and has always resented him for it. I know some people tend to look at suicide as either a cowardly or brave thing to do. In my opinion, I think it just has to do with extreme pain. It's not about hurting others or taking the easy way out. Inside, they feel empty and self-hatred and they just want to end that feeling.

deelightful wrote:

I always thought they pulled the trigger at the same time. I don't know why, but I just find it hard to believe that one of them watched the other die first. 

The aspect of the suicides has always interested me because my grandfather ended his life that way. My father was barely a toddler when it happened and has always resented him for it. I know some people tend to look at suicide as either a cowardly or brave thing to do. In my opinion, I think it just has to do with extreme pain. It's not about hurting others or taking the easy way out. Inside, they feel empty and self-hatred and they just want to end that feeling.

deelightful wrote:

In my opinion, I think it just has to do with extreme pain. It's not about hurting others or taking the easy way out. Inside, they feel empty and self-hatred and they just want to end that feeling.

This is exactly what I feel it is about, as well. Someone dearly beloved to me committed suicide almost 2 years ago, and I know he was just trying to put a stop to the endless pain he felt about everything. He did despise himself at that point, too. He just wanted it gone. He didn't want to feel it anymore, and in his mind, he didn't want to "burden" anyone else with his pain any longer, even though no one who truly loved him felt he was a burden. Everyone's story is complex, and his is deeply complex, believe me. When you are mourning a suicide, though, you are almost ready to take the same route, yourself, because that pain is indescribably unbearable, too. You will never, ever stop questioning what you could have done to stop it, or if you did something to make it happen, even though at the end of the day, it lies within the person who did that to themselves and not anyone else. His suicide has shattered me. It completely changed me. I still don't know how; there is no way to properly articulate what has happened, but my life is divided into before his passing and after his passing. That is how I view everything now.

Regarding Eric and Dylan, I have no doubt in my mind that suicide was the true core of the entire plan for their massacre, for the both of them, even subconsciously. Their pain, to them, was so excruciating that they wanted to make it felt and heard by as many as possible.

ThoughtBox wrote:

I see the various threads have done a pretty good job, but I have a hard time believing that there was really that much time between the two suicides.  Your thoughts suggest there was a fair amount of time between Eric and Dylan killing themselves. I find that interesting as I had not thought about that, I sort of envisioned Dylan lighting the molotov and then kneeling down with Eric around the same time in a sort of communal type of thing.  
My original question for this post was really the question of how much time elapsed between the two suicidal gunshots.  I agree with gustopoet that not much was said as some have talked about, either bitching about the failure, or congratulating each other.

On which table did Dylan gather the collection of personal items, and which items did the collection consist of?

lasttrain wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

I see the various threads have done a pretty good job, but I have a hard time believing that there was really that much time between the two suicides.  Your thoughts suggest there was a fair amount of time between Eric and Dylan killing themselves. I find that interesting as I had not thought about that, I sort of envisioned Dylan lighting the molotov and then kneeling down with Eric around the same time in a sort of communal type of thing.  
My original question for this post was really the question of how much time elapsed between the two suicidal gunshots.  I agree with gustopoet that not much was said as some have talked about, either bitching about the failure, or congratulating each other.

On which table did Dylan gather the collection of personal items, and which items did the collection consist of?  

I don't think his stuff was on the table, it was most likely on the floor because I read that they found his items "near his body". And it was an earring and a necklace. And they also found a shotgun bullet in his boot.

gustopoet wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

I see the various threads have done a pretty good job, but I have a hard time believing that there was really that much time between the two suicides.  Your thoughts suggest there was a fair amount of time between Eric and Dylan killing themselves. I find that interesting as I had not thought about that, I sort of envisioned Dylan lighting the molotov and then kneeling down with Eric around the same time in a sort of communal type of thing.  
My original question for this post was really the question of how much time elapsed between the two suicidal gunshots.  I agree with gustopoet that not much was said as some have talked about, either bitching about the failure, or congratulating each other.

Eric shot himself while Dylan was lighting the Molotov, then Dylan shot himself an instant later. Maybe enough time passed for Dylan to see Eric's head blown off, or maybe he just saw a flash. I don't think we'll ever know. One thing is clear: that both boys had given thought to how to kill themselves: Eric wanted to be sure he'd die and Dylan was ritualistic, almost religious and patterned himself (I think) after the suicide of Mickey's father in Natural Born Killers.

Just other day I saw where Dylan had scribbled "Do you believe in fate?" in one of his journals or notebooks.

BTW, I don't think the boys necessarily felt that they had failed. Yes, the bombs didn't go off, but just going through with NBK at all would have been an accomplishment for them. I think among all of their other raging emotions at that last minute they both probably felt at least a small sense of closure when they killed themselves. Also, they probably thought they killed way more people than they actually did kill... and they managed to stay together right through to the very end. Most importantly they believed they were escaping the "hell on earth" world of zombies in Abercrombie and Fitch gear. They may have even been somewhat hopeful that death would take them somewhere better. Or at least to oblivion and an end to self-hatred, misanthropy, and pain.

That's also the way I envision things going down, as gustopoet mentions. It connects with details Jenn has shared in other threads. Things such as Eric probably sitting down with knees close to his chest and his legs straightening in front of him as he died after which, Dylan fell on his leg, meaning Dylan would have died after his friend.

While it's entirely possible Eric pulled the trigger when Dylan was still alive, it seems such a lonely suicide when you have a friend there willing to do exactly the same thing. Was it like in the movie Zero Day, when Calvin hesitates to shoot himself and has to try a few times before he pulls the trigger? Maybe that's the way it went for Dylan and so Eric went down first because Dylan hesitated? I do wonder how Eric could just do his own thing without wanting to synchronise with Dylan. But maybe it was easier that way, if that's what he did. Easier to die on his own terms, at his own time, I mean.

Jenn wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

I see the various threads have done a pretty good job, but I have a hard time believing that there was really that much time between the two suicides.  Your thoughts suggest there was a fair amount of time between Eric and Dylan killing themselves. I find that interesting as I had not thought about that, I sort of envisioned Dylan lighting the molotov and then kneeling down with Eric around the same time in a sort of communal type of thing.  
My original question for this post was really the question of how much time elapsed between the two suicidal gunshots.  I agree with gustopoet that not much was said as some have talked about, either bitching about the failure, or congratulating each other.

On which table did Dylan gather the collection of personal items, and which items did the collection consist of?  

I don't think his stuff was on the table, it was most likely on the floor because I read that they found his items "near his body". And it was an earring and a necklace. And they also found a shotgun bullet in his boot.

Jenn my question to you is this...What, exactly, did you think Dylan did in the time between Eric's shooting himself, and his own suicide? Not that we can really know, but I guess my whole point in starting this topic was to try to ascertain how much time elapsed between the suicides and what happened in the interim. You suggest that Dylan may have seen Eric shoot himself and the terribly gruesome aftermath of the shotgun blast, do you think he spent much time looking at the remains of his friend, and what may have gone through his mind, and if he may have hesitated or faltered slightly in killing himself with the Tec-9? What do you make of him removing his earring and necklace (both were handmade, I believe?)? I am just more than slightly interested into how this may have all played out, in addition to the timing of the molotov cocktail being placed on the desk where Eric's brain had splattered. I often wonder if Dylan prayed to whatever "Her" or "She" he had hoped to join before his death.

Yet, all we can do is speculate. It keeps the Columbine topic alive as much as possible; the more we do not know.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Jenn wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

I see the various threads have done a pretty good job, but I have a hard time believing that there was really that much time between the two suicides.  Your thoughts suggest there was a fair amount of time between Eric and Dylan killing themselves. I find that interesting as I had not thought about that, I sort of envisioned Dylan lighting the molotov and then kneeling down with Eric around the same time in a sort of communal type of thing.  
My original question for this post was really the question of how much time elapsed between the two suicidal gunshots.  I agree with gustopoet that not much was said as some have talked about, either bitching about the failure, or congratulating each other.

On which table did Dylan gather the collection of personal items, and which items did the collection consist of?  

I don't think his stuff was on the table, it was most likely on the floor because I read that they found his items "near his body". And it was an earring and a necklace. And they also found a shotgun bullet in his boot.

Jenn, since you have studied the suicides quite thoroughly, my question to you is this...What, exactly, did you think Dylan did in the time between Eric's shooting himself, and his own suicide? Not that we can really know, but I guess my whole point in starting this topic was to try to ascertain how much time elapsed between the suicides and what happened in the interim. You suggest that Dylan may have seen Eric shoot himself and the terribly gruesome aftermath of the shotgun blast, do you think he spent much time looking at the remains of his friend, and what may have gone through his mind, and if he may have hesitated or faltered slightly in killing himself with the Tec-9? What do you make of him removing his earring and necklace (both were handmade, I believe?)? I am just more than slightly interested into how this may have all played out, in addition to the timing of the molotov cocktail being placed on the desk where Eric's brain had splattered. I often wonder if Dylan prayed to whatever "Her" or "She" he had hoped to join before his death.

I envision them walking back into the Library right at noon. I imagine they walked around the Library to see the death and damage they had caused. They then shot at police once again through the windows. They stopped shooting at 12:05. I think at this point Eric probably lead the way to the corner where they would commit suicide. I don't think they said much to each other. In fact, I picture Eric just walking away from the window, walking over to the bookshelf and sitting down. I don't think he waited for Dylan at all. They may have said something like "Well, this is it" or something along those lines. I don't think they shook hands, I don't think they hugged each other or high-fived each other or anything like that as some other people have suggested.

I think Eric just sat down, put the gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. I don't think Dylan was kneeling down in front of him yet when Eric pulled the trigger. I believe that Dylan was mostly likely still standing by the table, lighting a Molotov. He may have done it from the floor. I guess that is possible, but I never pictured it that way.

It took Eric less than 3 minutes to kill himself. He stopped shooting at the cops at 12:05 and the sprinklers turned on at 12:08 to put out the fire from the Molotov. It is this very short time frame that leads me to believe that he did not wait around having small talk with Dylan or waiting for Dylan to be ready to kill himself.

Dylan, on the other hand, was fiddling around with a Molotov and then taking off his jewelry. I don't think he was dead as quickly as Eric.

So, picture it like this. Dylan and Eric stop shooting at the cops. Eric leads them over to the place where they will kill themselves. Eric sits down in front of the bookshelf, his back is up against it. He bends his knees up towards his chest, he puts the shotgun in his mouth. As he is doing this, Dylan is standing by the table, lighting a Molotov. Maybe Dylan didn't know that Eric was going to kill himself that very second? As Dylan lights the Molotov and throws it on the table, Eric pulls the trigger. Pieces of Eric's brain land on the table that the lit Molotov is sitting on. The Molotov explodes, sealing Eric's brain pieces underneath it.

Dylan looks down at Eric, he is probably starting to get really nervous at this point. He is probably also very sad to see the top of his friends skull missing. Ultimately Dylan knows he has to go through with his suicide. Perhaps he was looking forward to it? I think that he was but I also think he was scared.

Dylan then kneels down in front of Eric. He takes off his necklace and earring and puts them in a small pile. I believe he did this so that his parents could have something of his. Maybe Dylan originally was going to put his shotgun in his mouth too. After all, he did put a shotgun bullet in his boot to have in case he ran out of ammo. He saved that one bullet to make sure he had a suicide bullet. In the end though, Dylan decided against a shotgun in the mouth. Why? I think that because he saw what it did to Eric. Maybe he didn't want his parents seeing him that way?

He is kneeling in front of Eric at this point. He puts a tec-9 to his left temple and pulls the trigger. You asked if I think he thought about his "love"? I honestly don't know. I tend to think that he was thinking that it was finally over, that he was finally going to a better place and that he was going to finally be gone from this miserable world. Whether or not he was thinking of her being there, I don't know. I do think, even though he was now a murderer, he still believed he was going to a "better" place. He never once seemed to be afraid of or believed that he would go to Hell for what he had done.

You also asked how much time I think went by between Eric's suicide and Dylan's. If I had to guess, I'd say no more than 5 minutes. In fact, 5 minutes seems like a long time. It was probably closer to 2-3 minutes. I don't think Dylan had second thoughts or sat there contemplating whether or not he was going to do it. I think he was ready and wanted to do it. But like I said, I do think he was scared. I imagine he told himself "it will only take a second and then it will be over". I also think he cried while he was doing it. I imagine he started crying when he seen Eric and then started taking off his jewelry to leave behind for his parents. He was a very sad boy, indeed. I don't doubt for a second that he didn't cry.

Jenn wrote:

I imagine he started crying when he seen Eric and then started taking off his jewelry to leave behind for his parents. He was a very sad boy, indeed. I don't doubt for a second that he didn't cry.

Brilliant post, Jenn. Thanks for all your research on this important topic. I think your ideas are spot-on.

I would like to think that Dylan cried a tear or two, but a part of me has trouble believing it.  However, considering the time frame which you describe so well, I think it is entirely possible. I am saddened to think though, that none of these tears were tears of regret for what he had done, but maybe just for his sorry situation and the terribly gruesome death of his friend.  I think your description, at least for me, is a definitive one and one which I would like to think is true.

I actually think they were both annoyed and disappointed in their last minutes. Their plan pretty much failed, NBK didn't go at all as planned, they must've felt frustrated about that. They wanted to go out with a BANG but instead just went *pew... pew....*

This is my take on it, there's no way of finding out, unfortunately.

That's a really arresting description of the suicide scene, Jenn.

Somewhere in one of his diary entry, Eric calls for some person to commit suicide and writes ''do it and do it quick''. It must have been part of his general idea of doing it rapidly (even for himself). Making sure he would not hesitate.

Must have been a real shock to Dylan to see his friend offing himself as he looked away at the Molotov, if that's how it went down. I'd think there would be a feeling of disassociation with the whole bloody scene, a sensation of eeriness and disconnection from everything. Maybe it would have made it easier for Dylan to go ahead with his own suicide and not even feeling tearful?

Is there any reason to believe that Dylan stayed alive long enough to look at Eric or contemplate things?  Why isn't this proposed timeline possible?

12:08:00 Eric is standing or crouching with back to books and Dylan is by the table
12:08:05 Dylan lights Molotov cocktail and walks over
12:08:10 Eric commits suicide
12:08:10-11 Dylan commits suicide virtually simultaneously, maybe a split second after Eric

I assume most people disregard Patti Nielson's account of hearing them shout 'one, two, three' at around 12:08?

I think that they did it at more or less the same time. The slight difference in Eric firing the gun 'on three' and Dylan 'after three'

Because Patti stated that she never heard it. It was only speculation in the papers.

In addition to Patti explicitly stating she never said that (I guess at some point afterwards she said she and others were speculating about how E/D did it), that movie Zero Day I think ended with the pair committing suicide by counting to three, and that has probably lead to this very common misconception.

lasttrain wrote:

Is there any reason to believe that Dylan stayed alive long enough to look at Eric or contemplate things?  Why isn't this proposed timeline possible?

12:08:00 Eric is standing or crouching with back to books and Dylan is by the table
12:08:05 Dylan lights Molotov cocktail and walks over
12:08:10 Eric commits suicide
12:08:10-11 Dylan commits suicide virtually simultaneously, maybe a split second after Eric

Well, I suppose it could happen within a 10 second timespan, but that seems to be rushing things along quite a bit. Just because the fire detector sensed the fire from the Molotov at 12:08 (I think that's right, I don't really look at the documents much anymore), doesn't mean that more time didn't elapse from the time Dylan placed in on the table and lit it, I assume it takes time to ignite fully (and by the time it did, part of Eric's brain had been splattered on the table). After much back and forth with Jenn (who has studiously researched the suicides) I have come to the conclusion that the fact Dylan had removed his necklace and earring probably leads us to believe that he probably did this after Eric's suicide. It is highly unlikely based on the situation, his demeanor, and his previous writings, that Eric waited around for Dylan to fuss around with his personal belongings before blowing his brains out. Eric MAY have waited a little bit, got impatient with Dylan (who was probably in his own little world contemplating the end), and just pulled his beloved Arlene's trigger (after kissing it, I'd like to think!). Dylan probably noticed the suicide, but continued for a little while still with his more ceremonial suicide, kneeling and perhaps thinking of his idealistic Love he would be joining, before pulling the Tec-9's trigger.

What bugs me is that Dylan was facing Eric, and I just don't see him wanting to expose himself to the severely injured body of his friend. If Eric did it first, I don't see Dylan standing there looking at him or even wanting to remain in the presence of the body for any length of time at all.

The notion that Dylan went some time later is based on the idea that Eric was rushed. But is that true?

I mean, do we know for a fact that Eric didn't light the Molotov while Dylan was taking off the earrings, etc?

em81 wrote:

Because Patti stated that she never heard it. It was only speculation in the papers.

Not to mention, as Jenn pointed out in another thread, how is Eric going to be shouting anything with a shotgun in his mouth?

Why is this not possible?

12:07:45 Eric and Dylan cease firing at law enforcement and agree that it is time to commit suicide before SWAT enters
12:08:00 Dylan kneels down and begins to remove his jewelry while Eric goes to the table and begins to light a Molotov cocktail
12:08:05 Having lit the cocktail, Eric crouches down across from Dylan
12:08:10 Eric commits suicide
12:08:10-11 Dylan commits suicide virtually simultaneously, maybe a split second after Eric

lasttrain wrote:

I mean, do we know for a fact that Eric didn't light the Molotov while Dylan was taking off the earrings, etc?

Eric's brain matter was found under the Molotov. Dylan's brain matter was found splattered on Eric's leg. This suggests that Eric died while Dylan was lighting the Molotov.

lasttrain wrote:

Why is this not possible?

12:07:45 Eric and Dylan cease firing at law enforcement and agree that it is time to commit suicide before SWAT enters
12:08:00 Dylan kneels down and begins to remove his jewelry while Eric goes to the table and begins to light a Molotov cocktail
12:08:05 Having lit the cocktail, Eric crouches down across from Dylan
12:08:10 Eric commits suicide
12:08:10-11 Dylan commits suicide virtually simultaneously, maybe a split second after Eric

I guess anything is possible, since this is all speculation, it just seems too fast to me, plus I thought it was Dylan who lit the molotov? In any case, I'll defer and wait for Jenn to put her two cents' (or more) worth in on this.

gustopoet wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

I mean, do we know for a fact that Eric didn't light the Molotov while Dylan was taking off the earrings, etc?

Eric's brain matter was found under the Molotov. Dylan's brain matter was found splattered on Eric's leg. This suggests that Eric died while Dylan was lighting the Molotov.

So you are saying you think Dylan essentially had his back to him, got splattered, then turned and walked over to face him and did it later?

One thing I want to add about E/D's last minute, which is rarely discussed on these boards, is that the two boys did NOT know that SWAT would be late. They thought SWAT would be there any second.

I have been to Columbine before the renovations (for a baseball tournament), and I am familiar with how the layout of the west entrance used to be. There was a door into the library from the top of the west steps that went in by conference rooms and the TV room (the same one the students in the library used as their escape door). From where E/D were when they committed suicide, it would only take you 10 seconds to walk outside, and the door was open at this time.

They did not commit suicide because they were tired, disoriented, spent, regretful, or had "accomplished" their mission. They did it because they were low on ammo, the guns weren't reliable, and they thought SWAT was going to be there any minute.

lasttrain wrote:

They did not commit suicide because they were tired, disoriented, spent, regretful, or had "accomplished" their mission.  They did it because they were low on ammo, the guns weren't reliable, and they thought SWAT was going to be there any minute.  

I agree. That's been part of my personal version of events all along. Somewhere around here there's a thread that clearly spells out the ammo situation. Not only that, but the cops had multiple helicopters, a tank, etc. Must have truly seemed like the end of the world.

lasttrain wrote:

So you are saying you think Dylan essentially had his back to him, got splattered, then turned and walked over to face him and did it later?

Like I said upstream in this thread:

"I think they shot at the cops until they were running low on ammo, retreated to the back corner and Eric sat down by the bookcase and shot himself in the head with Arlene while Dylan was making a pile of personal items, and lighting a final Molotov cocktail. Just after lighting it Dylan went down on his knees facing Eric and shot himself with the Tec 9."

I think Dylan did look at Eric after Eric was dead. I don't think he would have had any qualms about doing so. He was already immersed in a personal Armageddon. I agree with Jenn's idea that Dylan shot himself in the head with the Tec 9 because he saw what the shotgun blast did to Eric. He went down on his knees like Mickey's father in the film Natural Born Killers -- his suicide had ritualistic/religious slant, whereas Eric's was purely pragmatic.  After his death, the SWAT team kicked Dylan over, and the rotation of his body left a telltale blood smear.

gustopoet wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

So you are saying you think Dylan essentially had his back to him, got splattered, then turned and walked over to face him and did it later?

Like I said upstream in this thread:

"I think they shot at the cops until they were running low on ammo, retreated to the back corner and Eric sat down by the bookcase and shot himself in the head with Arlene while Dylan was making a pile of personal items, and lighting a final Molotov cocktail. Just after lighting it Dylan went down on his knees facing Eric and shot himself with the Tec 9."

I think Dylan did look at Eric after Eric was dead. I don't think he would have had any qualms about doing so. He was already immersed in a personal Armageddon. I agree with Jenn's idea that Dylan shot himself in the head with the Tec 9 because he saw what the shotgun blast did to Eric. He went down on his knees like Mickey's father in the film Natural Born Killers -- his suicide had ritualistic/religious slant, whereas Eric's was purely pragmatic.  After his death, the SWAT team kicked Dylan over, and the rotation of his body left a telltale blood smear.

Concise and logical, thanks gustopoet. I used to think they were simultaneous suicides, but the facts left behind and the things you and Jenn have written so clearly about, makes it actually much more believable that it happened somewhat in this manner. I agree Dylan was probably in too much of a hallucinatory fog to ponder too much about Eric's bloody mess, and he had probably already planned out (in his head and not articulated to Eric), how he was going to kill himself, if he had the option and wasn't already killed by the cops or the SWAT team. What a gruesome, pathetic, and heart-wrenching scene that last minute must have been!

There is NO evidence that the brain matter on Table 15 was exclusively Eric's - It may have been Patrick Ireland's because he was shot in the left side of his forehead at Table 15

Furthermore, There was no release of the evidence on Eric's pants - it could have well been blood from shooting at victims etc as well as the possibility of Dylan's blood


Also, where is the evidence that Dylan took off his earrings/necklace before committing suicide?


Thank you

ThoughtBox wrote:

Concise and logical, thanks gustopoet. I used to think they were simultaneous suicides, but the facts left behind and the things you and Jenn have written so clearly about, makes it actually much more believable that it happened somewhat in this manner.

Most of what's in my version is based on Jenn's ideas. The death photos perplexed me deeply and I could not sort out how the boys ended up in the positions they were in...

sororityalpha wrote:

There is NO evidence that the brain matter on Table 15 was exclusively Eric's - It may have been Patrick Ireland's because he was shot in the left side of his forehead at Table 15

Furthermore, There was no release of the evidence on Eric's pants - it could have well been blood from shooting at victims etc as well as the possibility of Dylan's blood


Also, where is the evidence that Dylan took off his earrings/necklace before committing suicide?


Thank you

Jenn can probably answer this more fully. Here's a thread with some more info:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

In this thread Jenn states that the blood on Eric's leg was an exact match for Dylan's and that his earring and necklace were found near the body. Corroboration for this latter assertion is in the evidence log. I've seen it, but I'm too lazy to go look it up just now.

sororityalpha wrote:

There is NO evidence that the brain matter on Table 15 was exclusively Eric's - It may have been Patrick Ireland's because he was shot in the left side of his forehead at Table 15

Furthermore, There was no release of the evidence on Eric's pants - it could have well been blood from shooting at victims etc as well as the possibility of Dylan's blood


Also, where is the evidence that Dylan took off his earrings/necklace before committing suicide?


Thank you

I have studied the suicides very thoroughly and I would not give up on it until it made sense to me. You are implying that the blood and brain matter all over Eric's pant leg may not be Dylan's. While you may be right that there were no documents released saying it was Dylan's blood (I have no idea because I didn't look for documents, I studied these photos on my own and came up with my own conclusions as the "evidence" gives me no answers to anything anyways, but I will take your word for it) however, it did not take a lot for me to figure out that it IS Dylan's blood.

Lets take a look at the death photo. I have this photo blown up to a very large size so that I could study everything about it. If this is not Dylan's blood, please explain the blood spot on Dylan's arm that matches up to the blood spot on Eric's boot. This transfer could only happen if Dylan's arm came into contact with Eric's boot. I seriously doubt that Dylan was laying on the floor anytime during the massacre for his arm to have come in contact with Eric's boot. Dylan got that transfer from Eric's boot when he shot himself in the head and landed on Eric's leg.

Also, you can clearly see in the photo that this is not just blood, it is pieces of Dylan's brain and head as well. And also, if Dylan did not land on Eric, getting his blood all over Eric, how come Dylan's hat is laying on Eric's leg? Dylan's hat fell off right where Dylan landed.

The photos prove that Dylan 1. Shot himself AFTER Eric. 2. Dylan fell on top of Eric after he shot himself and 3. Dylan's body was moved, most likely kicked off of Eric by the police to see if Dylan was still alive. And honestly, I do not need any official documents to figure this out. It is right there in black and white by looking at their suicide photos.

About Dylan's jewelry, am I wrong when I say that his earring and necklace were found in close proximity to his body and that they were thrown into his body bag? I do remember reading that. And if Dylan's jewelry was thrown into his body bag, then obviously he would have had to take them off before he killed himself, right?

And last, you say that the brain matter on the table could have been Patrick Ireland's? Did Patrick actually get shot in the brain and did pieces of his brain fly out of his head? Sorry to ask this question, I know it isn't pleasant to think about, but I honestly don't know if Patrick lost pieces of his brain. I know he got shot in the head, but I never read anything about his brain being shot/exposed. And considering they found pieces of Eric's brain on the ceiling as well, I really don't see who else's brain it could be on the table.

Someone else in this thread said they believed that Dylan and Eric shot themselves simultaneously. I have proved several of times that there is absolutely no way that happened. Study the suicide photos for yourself and you will see I am right. When Eric shot himself in the mouth with his shotgun, his knees were bent up towards his chest. If Dylan shot himself at the same exact moment then he would have fell on the ground, not on Eric's leg. Eric's legs did not drop until after he was dead and after his shotgun flew out of his mouth and under his leg. After that was done, Dylan then shot himself, falling on top of an already dead Eric.

As for Eric lighting the Molotov? Somehow I doubt it. Unless Eric was Speedy Gonzales and lit the Molotov and then rushed over to the bookshelf, hurried up and sat down and then stuck his shotgun in his mouth and blew the top his head off all within the matter of seconds, the most logical explanation is that Dylan lit the Molotov.

When it comes right down to it, most of it is speculation. The only people who know for sure what happened have been dead for nearly 15 years. However you can figure out quite a bit by studying the photos, which is what I did. I came to my own conclusions about what happened. I feel pretty confident about my conclusions too. I feel satisfied and at peace with the suicides now. Now if only I can get this kind of peace with the bombs, then all would be great.

I know what you are saying Jenn

I do agree that Dylan's head landed close by Eric's left knee as the location of Dylan's hat clearly shows that.

However, we do not have any evidence that tells us that the blood/brain matter on Eric's left leg belonged exclusively to Dylan. Or, that the brain matter on Table 15 belonged exclusively to Eric.

Also, there is evidence that the suicide bullet may have travelled from a height of about 36 inches or near or at the top of a chair.

Firearm discharge #11 was the 9mm projectile that killed KLEBOLD. No known holes or deformations solely existed for this event other than in the body. (The evidence recovered from discharges 13 and 14 may be the same as this event.)

Firearm discharge #13 was the 9mm round (item #1166) that perforated the drywall below the frame between Windows 5 and 6 (photographs 44-16 and 44-24) and recovered under Window 5. The measured declination for this trajectory was 3 degrees and 37 degrees out from the west wall. Its
apparent trajectory (photograph 44-22) traced back to the southeast being into or just above a chair on the west side of Table 20. If it was above this chair back, this continued trajectory was to the north of the bodies of KLEBOLD and HARRIS.

Firearm discharge #14 was the 9mm round (item #1124) that perforated the frame at the bottom of Window 6 (photographs 44-16 to 44-24). In addition to gray and copper-colored metal fragments, the curved piece of window frame (all as item #1124A) were recovered from inside the windowsill. The measured trajectory for this projectile was 31 degrees out from the windowsill in an essentially
horizontal path. When traced back to the southeast, this trajectory intersected the west side of bookshelf Row 6 at a point 45 3/4" above the floor and 52" north of the south end of the bookshelf. This trajectory also passed over the area where KLEBOLD's body was located at a height of approximately 36" (photograph 44-23).

Of all the projectile holes/impacts in this area, discharge #14 was the most consistent (though not exclusively) with being the same as discharge #11 through KLEBOLD. (Note: DNA analysis on pellets and fragments recovered in this area did not have any evidentiary value.)

sororityalpha wrote:

I know what you are saying Jenn

I do agree that Dylan's head landed close by Eric's left knee as the location of Dylan's hat clearly shows that.

However, we do not have any evidence that tells us that the blood/brain matter on Eric's left leg belonged exclusively to Dylan. Or, that the brain matter on Table 15 belonged exclusively to Eric.

Also, there is evidence that the suicide bullet may have travelled from a height of about 36 inches or near or at the top of a chair.

Firearm discharge #11 was the 9mm projectile that killed KLEBOLD. No known holes or deformations solely existed for this event other than in the body. (The evidence recovered from discharges 13 and 14 may be the same as this event.)

Firearm discharge #13 was the 9mm round (item #1166) that perforated the drywall below the frame between Windows 5 and 6 (photographs 44-16 and 44-24) and recovered under Window 5. The measured declination for this trajectory was 3 degrees and 37 degrees out from the west wall. Its
apparent trajectory (photograph 44-22) traced back to the southeast being into or just above a chair on the west side of Table 20. If it was above this chair back, this continued trajectory was to the north of the bodies of KLEBOLD and HARRIS.

Firearm discharge #14 was the 9mm round (item #1124) that perforated the frame at the bottom of Window 6 (photographs 44-16 to 44-24). In addition to gray and copper-colored metal fragments, the curved piece of window frame (all as item #1124A) were recovered from inside the windowsill. The measured trajectory for this projectile was 31 degrees out from the windowsill in an essentially
horizontal path. When traced back to the southeast, this trajectory intersected the west side of bookshelf Row 6 at a point 45 3/4" above the floor and 52" north of the south end of the bookshelf. This trajectory also passed over the area where KLEBOLD's body was located at a height of approximately 36" (photograph 44-23).

Of all the projectile holes/impacts in this area, discharge #14 was the most consistent (though not exclusively) with being the same as discharge #11 through KLEBOLD. (Note: DNA analysis on pellets and fragments recovered in this area did not have any evidentiary value.)

I understand that you are all about the evidence and it seems as though you don't believe anything unless you have some kind of solid evidence or a source to back it up. However, I am not like that. I do not need some kind of evidence log saying "This is Dylan's blood on Eric's pant leg" for me to believe it is Dylan's blood on Eric' pant leg. I can look at the photos and I can see all the "evidence" I need to make my own conclusion on this matter. Because, the truth of the matter is, there will never be any solid answers to any of it no matter how many evidence logs you go though. The only people who know exactly what happened are dead. And all that is left is all of us trying to make sense out of what happened and trying to be satisfied with our own answers, because Dylan and Eric sure aren't going to give us the answers we're looking for.

I never said that what I believe to have had happen is the full truth. In fact, I believe I said that it was how I "envisioned" it. It is up to anyone reading what I have wrote whether they envision it that way too. However, everything I have said is what I believe to be the truth. I see you keep questioning what I am saying by letting me know there is no evidence log to back up, but honestly, I don't need one to know what I believe to be the truth. I can see what I believe to be the truth in the photos.

I am sure a lot of people feel they need evidence logs and sources and something on paper to back everything up before they will even entertain the idea of an event that took place on April 20th, but there are some of us who aren't like that. Some of us who want to have some kind of visual in our minds of what happened and how it went down. I shared what I believed to have had happened. It doesn't mean that everything I said is exactly what happened, but, like I said, it is what I believe happened.

Thank you for clarifying that for other members as well

A lot of times in any case, there are misconceptions/beliefs that are accepted as FACT by the masses until it is shown that there is NO evidence to support it

I understand that we don't have ALL the information we want but we cannot state something as FACT to others when we don't really know if it is certain ourselves

sororityalpha wrote:

Thank you for clarifying that for other members as well

A lot of times in any case, there are misconceptions/beliefs that are accepted as FACT by the masses until it is shown that there is NO evidence to support it

I understand that we don't have ALL the information we want but we cannot state something as FACT to others when we don't really know if it is certain ourselves

This thread has the evidence for Dylan removing his earring and necklace:

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gustopoet wrote:

This thread has the evidence for Dylan removing his earring and necklace:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Did you mean the post that quotes his autopsy?
"Also present in close proximity to the body, in the body bag, were the following personal effects: a pierced earring, a silver-colored pocket watch, and a beaded cloth necklace" This is on the 4th page of Dylan's autopsy report.

His autopsy report also mentions "A silver-colored ring with a black stone is present on the ring finger of the left hand." Under 'Extremities' pg(3)

I remember I read in the 11k that they found Dylans necklace and other things piled.

queenfarooq wrote:

gustopoet wrote:

This thread has the evidence for Dylan removing his earring and necklace:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Did you mean the post that quotes his autopsy?
"Also present in close proximity to the body, in the body bag, were the following personal effects: a pierced earring, a silver-colored pocket watch, and a beaded cloth necklace" This is on the 4th page of Dylan's autopsy report.

His autopsy report also mentions "A silver-colored ring with a black stone is present on the ring finger of the left hand." Under 'Extremities' pg(3)

Yes, here is the evidence that Dylan took off his jewelry before he committed suicide. These items were found in his body bag with him. Unless, by coincidence, every single piece of jewelry he had on just happened to fall off of his body while he was in his body bag, we can safely assume that Dylan removed these items himself. And I do remember reading somewhere else, I just don't remember where at the moment, that his belongings were in a pile near his body.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I am not refuting your belief. I am stating that it is speculation and not fact - from the evidence in this case

The information I have read from the autopsy evidence/reports also shows that personal effects, as well as clothing, are removed from the victims.

Whether Dylan's personal effects, besides his ring, were removed by him or someone else is mere speculation.

Furthermore, in the autopsy report, black suspenders were in close proximity of [Dylan's] body - well, we know from the death pictures that Dylan's suspenders were attached/on him at that time. However, by the time of his autopsy, they were now located in close proximity of his body. So, these had been unattached/removed by the time of the autopsy report.


**If there is a reference in the 11K about this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.


Thank you

sororityalpha wrote:

I am not refuting your belief. I am stating that it is speculation and not fact - from the evidence in this case

The information I have read from the autopsy evidence/reports also shows that personal effects, as well as clothing, are removed from the victims.

Whether Dylan's personal effects, besides his ring, were removed by him or someone else is mere speculation.

Furthermore, in the autopsy report, black suspenders were in close proximity of [Dylan's] body - well, we know from the death pictures that Dylan's suspenders were attached/on him at that time. However, by the time of his autopsy, they were now located in close proximity of his body. So, these had been unattached/removed by the time of the autopsy report.


**If there is a reference in the 11K about this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.



Thank you

Where in the death photo do you see suspenders on Dylan? Because I have this picture blown up to a very large size and I do not see suspenders on him. I see some kind of gun strap, maybe, but I do not see suspenders?

sororityalpha wrote:

**If there is a reference in the 11K about this subject, I would greatly appreciate it.

Me too.