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 Dylan's alternate suicide

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JayJay
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PostSubject: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeMon Jan 20, 2014 12:14 am

If Eric never existed, when (if at all) do you think Dylan would have ultimately killed himself? Before 1999? In college? Later in life? Or perhaps not at all?
I tend to think personally he most likely would have least attempted suicde his first year in college (at U of AZ) having been separated from his family and small amount of friends, but that it would have been unsuccessful. Dylan, to me, alone, would have been the type to attempt suicide but not been
successful; perhaps he would have even gotten the help he so desperately needed.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeMon Jan 20, 2014 2:36 am

I think the same, he could attempted suicide and fail, gotten with that the help that he always needed but I have to think as well if he wouldn't fail and succeed, then he could be now one of the many unknown people that committed suicide in the united states and the world. That's why I always see NBK as also a sigh to show to the world all his suffering and how bad and angry he was feeling to not only commite suicide and being one of the many who do it with many reasons that their family and friends don't understand. Of course that in the end his own family and friends are also trying to understand but in his case is not only them, we are trying to understand too and we never met him, that's something that not everyone who commited suicide make and that's why Dylan's suicide make me think a lot about many things
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeMon Jan 20, 2014 5:43 am

I've thought that, say Dylan goes to Arizona University, wouldn't he have been in the same place as Zach (and far from Eric) and probably in the same program (computer science)? That could have been salutary for him and ease him into the wonderful world of college. But it's also a difficult transition with a lot of pressures from all sides so, his problems could have worsened to the point where he would have attempted suicide.

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"Is evil something you are? Or is it something you do? My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape."
- American Psycho - Bret Easton Ellis (1991)
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeMon Jan 20, 2014 6:40 pm

I've heard that a few times, that Dylan and Zach were going to the same college. Where did you guys read that at because I've never read that. I know that Dylan and a friend of his went to go pick out Dylan's room together, but I thought that friend was Nate?

About Dylan committing suicide. I don't know, if Eric didn't exist, if Dylan would have done it at all. His journal leads you to believe that he had no intentions on living until NBK, that he planned on killing himself way before then. He didn't kill himself though and then he goes on to say that maybe NBK was his way to "break free" or something along those lines.

I've always felt that Dylan's number one reason for going through with NBK was to finally have a reason to kill himself. He could have killed himself before NBK but didn't. I think he didn't because he couldn't go through with it. I think he knew once he did NBK with Eric that he would finally be able to go through with it. And by the looks of it, he may have still been hesitant at the end. Being that Eric shot himself first, it is always possible that Dylan waited to see if Eric would actually go through with it before doing it himself.

Dylan's journal talks about how sad he is, how much he wants to die and how much he wants to find love, how he is looking for an excuse to kill himself. He hardly ever mentions hating the world, wanting to kill people and all the other things Eric talked about in his journal. Yes, I know Dylan wrote an entry back in 10th grade or some shit where he said he wanted to go on a rampage or something. But, one entry that he possibly could have made because he had a bad day hardly makes him obsessed with murder and shooting up the school. What that boy was obsessed with was finding love and killing himself. I honestly think that Dylan used NBK to finally have a reason to commit suicide.

So if Eric and NBK didn't exist, I am not sure that Dylan would have committed suicide at all. Maybe if he found some other friend to commit suicide with, he might have. But Dylan, on his own, I doubt would have actually gone through with killing himself. Maybe as he got older and his depression got worse he would have actually gone to a doctor and got help?

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeMon Jan 20, 2014 7:24 pm

I think that NBK gave Dylan the push to kill himself but I don't believe that it was his main motivator. Dylan hated the world around him and the environment that he was born into, just as much as Eric hated being moved into it. Didn't Dylan say somewhere (BT maybe?) that he was always angry and hated his peers since kindergarten or something similar? NBK was his way of expressing all of what he had repressed all of those years and he got to kill himself at the end. It was a win-win deal for Dylan, destroy what he hated AND have the guts, the time and a person to kill himself with.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeMon Jan 20, 2014 9:58 pm

Thank you Jenn for hitting on what I was considering as well

This is the evidence that I have found:

The information about the other applicants was kept confidential, however, there is some info.

pages 010444-010445:

There were a total of six (6) COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL (CHS) students who had applied to UA this year, one of whom was DYLAN KLEBOLD. PROCTOR had personally reviewed all six of the CHS applications.

Each UA applicant had to write an essay as part of the application process.

KLEBOLD's essay discussed his being involved in drama and of a "big production" which he planned for the Spring, 1999. PROCTOR thought in light of the CHS attack in April, 1999, this was an odd statement for KLEBOLD to make.

PROCTOR recalled besides KLEBOLD's application, another CHS student had indicated similar interests and was also involved in the drama department at CHS. This applicant also indicated that a "big production" would take place during the Spring, 1999.

PROCTOR did not know whether the two knew each other, but thought it was unusual they used similar phrases in their respective applications.

PROCTOR could not recall the name of this student, but knew he was definitely not ERIC HARRIS.

** The others in the drama department with Dylan were Zach Heckler, Yoshi Carroll, Brooks Brown [don't recall Brooks ever talking about applying to the University of Arizona],  etc

*** It appears that Zach Heckler applied to the University of Arizona and "indicated" that a big production would take place Spring 1999
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 2:33 am

sororityalpha wrote:
Thank you Jenn for hitting on what I was considering as well

This is the evidence that I have found:

The information about the other applicants was kept confidential, however, there is some info.

pages 010444-010445:

There were a total of six (6) COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL (CHS) students who had applied to UA this year, one of whom was DYLAN KLEBOLD. PROCTOR had personally reviewed all six of the CHS applications.

Each UA applicant had to write an essay as part of the application process.

KLEBOLD's essay discussed his being involved in drama and of a "big production" which he planned for the Spring, 1999. PROCTOR thought in light of the CHS attack in April, 1999, this was an odd statement for KLEBOLD to make.

PROCTOR recalled besides KLEBOLD's application, another CHS student had indicated similar interests and was also involved in the drama department at CHS. This applicant also indicated that a "big production" would take place during the Spring, 1999.

PROCTOR did not know whether the two knew each other, but thought it was unusual they used similar phrases in their respective applications.

PROCTOR could not recall the name of this student, but knew he was definitely not ERIC HARRIS.

** The others in the drama department with Dylan were Zach Heckler, Yoshi Carroll, Brooks Brown [don't recall Brooks ever talking about applying to the University of Arizona],  etc

*** It appears that Zach Heckler applied to the University of Arizona and "indicated" that a big production would take place Spring 1999

Yep. I brought up that very same topic of Zach planning to attend UoA in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].  Seems like an even more interesting connection that both used "big production for spring". Things that make you go Hmmm...   Cool   Course, In timeline B, if Dylan side stepped NBK, he could've gotten away from the stuffy confines of Littleton and would've had his true best friend to explore uncharted, fresh territory at out-of-state college. Sad..
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 5:41 am

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
sororityalpha wrote:
Thank you Jenn for hitting on what I was considering as well

This is the evidence that I have found:

The information about the other applicants was kept confidential, however, there is some info.

pages 010444-010445:

There were a total of six (6) COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL (CHS) students who had applied to UA this year, one of whom was DYLAN KLEBOLD. PROCTOR had personally reviewed all six of the CHS applications.

Each UA applicant had to write an essay as part of the application process.

KLEBOLD's essay discussed his being involved in drama and of a "big production" which he planned for the Spring, 1999. PROCTOR thought in light of the CHS attack in April, 1999, this was an odd statement for KLEBOLD to make.

PROCTOR recalled besides KLEBOLD's application, another CHS student had indicated similar interests and was also involved in the drama department at CHS. This applicant also indicated that a "big production" would take place during the Spring, 1999.

PROCTOR did not know whether the two knew each other, but thought it was unusual they used similar phrases in their respective applications.

PROCTOR could not recall the name of this student, but knew he was definitely not ERIC HARRIS.

** The others in the drama department with Dylan were Zach Heckler, Yoshi Carroll, Brooks Brown [don't recall Brooks ever talking about applying to the University of Arizona],  etc

*** It appears that Zach Heckler applied to the University of Arizona and "indicated" that a big production would take place Spring 1999

Yep. I brought up that very same topic of Zach planning to attend UoA in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].  Seems like an even more interesting connection that both used "big production for spring". Things that make you go Hmmm...   Cool   Course, In timeline B, if Dylan side stepped NBK, he could've gotten away from the stuffy confines of Littleton and would've had his true best friend to explore uncharted, fresh territory at out-of-state college. Sad..

It could have been a metaphor for NBK, but on the other hand I remember reading in NEA(I think) that Dylan, Brooks and some other people wrote a play called "Smoke in the room"(I think). When CHS didn't want it in production because there was another play rehearsed at the time, they tried to play it in a theater somewhere nearby. Maybe that was what they were referring to. Or maybe just one of them;)

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 6:50 am

tragedy79 wrote:


It could have been a metaphor for NBK, but on the other hand I remember reading in NEA(I think) that Dylan, Brooks and some other people wrote a play called "Smoke in the room"(I think). When CHS didn't want it in production because there was another play rehearsed at the time, they tried to play it in a theater somewhere nearby. Maybe that was what they were referring to. Or maybe just one of them;)

Mention of that play is on page 151 of No Easy Answers. It doesn't say Dylan, Brooks and others wrote the play, though: ''[Talking about Rachel Scott]  She had just appeared in the last play of the season, Smoke in the Room, in a role that had required her to cut her hair short and dye it.''

If indeed Zach's mention of a ''big production'' is about that play, I'll breathe a sigh of relief! Do we have to remind ourselves that Zach's polygraph results were inconclusive? Not that he was lying necessarily but, that no conclusive answer could be got from the polygraph test he had to be sujected to.

I think it was someone on this forum who checked out Zach on LinkedIt who said he had gone to University of Arizona in computer studies so, it may have been where I got that information. If that's true, Dylan and him would have studied together...even if Zach thought Dylan was not intelligent enough to study in computer science. Wonder where his opinion came from. It's an interesting idea, coming from someone who was so closely involved with Dylan and should have known what he was capable of.

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"Is evil something you are? Or is it something you do? My pain is constant and sharp and I do not hope for a better world for anyone. In fact, I want my pain to be inflicted on others. I want no one to escape."
- American Psycho - Bret Easton Ellis (1991)
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 7:13 am

JayJay wrote:
tragedy79 wrote:


It could have been a metaphor for NBK, but on the other hand I remember reading in NEA(I think) that Dylan, Brooks and some other people wrote a play called "Smoke in the room"(I think). When CHS didn't want it in production because there was another play rehearsed at the time, they tried to play it in a theater somewhere nearby. Maybe that was what they were referring to. Or maybe just one of them;)

Mention of that play is on page 151 of No Easy Answers. It doesn't say Dylan, Brooks and others wrote the play, though: ''[Talking about Rachel Scott],  She had just appeared in the last play of the season, Smoke in the Room, in a role that had required her to cut her hair short and dye it.''

If indeed Zach's mention of a ''big production'' is about that play, I'll breathe a sigh of relief! Do we have to remind ourselves that Zach's polygraph results were inconclusive? Not that he was lying necessarily but, that no conclusive answer could be got from the polygraph test he had to be sujected to.

I think it was someone on this forum who checked out Zach on linkedit who said he had gone to University of Arizona in computer studies so, it may have been where I got that information. If that's true, Dylan and him would have studied together...even if Zach thought Dylan was not intelligent enough to study in computer science. Wonder where his opinion came from. It's an interesting idea, coming from someone who was so closely involved with Dylan and should have known what he was capable of.

I was mixing things up, but I just looked it up in Krabbé's book and he told it like this: Brooks didin't want to play the leadrole in the play"Smoke in the room". He and Dylan wanted to write their own production. They even went to see Mr. De Angelis, but he chooses "Smoke in the Room" over their play.

And then Krabbé is dating december 12 1998 in his book. On that date Dylan, Zack, Brooks and someone else are approaching a theater in Littleton about their play. They had been told maybe, but after that no one ever hears about the plan again. I don't know when the application forms for the university were send, bur maybe they had this in mind(?)

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeTue Jan 21, 2014 9:02 pm

The mentioning of Dylan, Zack and Brooks failing to put on their own plays at Columbine and then trying to get a get with Ascot Theatre Productions
starts under Tips A-Z at 013010

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I do think they Brooks, Dylan and Zach were seriously interested in jointly being creative and putting on their own edgy productions.  If you read the entire section, even Dylan, for once, seemed interested and motivated to even go so far as to insistently engage Meg Beck, the theatre manager.  He even construct a sophisticated, professional sounding letter - and even though Brooks was mentioned to be the one to take it from there and handle it via phone, it does show interest on Dylan's part other than spending time at home playing video games.  It would've been a good outlet for this group of guys.  It's too bad Columbine wasn't flexible about this groups' passionate theater production plans and also that Ascot turned them down.  So, while I think Zach and Dylan simultaneously mentioning "a big production would take place in spring"  was a harmless enough, tangible, success-driven coup in their cap to court a University to consider them, I'm inclined to agree with Tragedy79 that Dylan may have snickered while mentioning it for it's loaded, hidden double entendre.  It could've gone either way for Dylan, I think.  He was leaving it up to Fate as to what sort of "big spring production" it would be.   If Ascot hadn't turned them down, he may have gotten engaged in a new outlet of interest.   It only takes one small thing to change the course of destiny.
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's alternate suicide   Dylan's alternate suicide Icon_minitimeWed Jan 22, 2014 2:08 am

ThoughtBox wrote:
If Eric never existed, when (if at all) do you think Dylan would have ultimately killed himself? Before 1999? In college? Later in life? Or perhaps not at all?
I tend to think personally he most likely would have least attempted suicde his first year in college (at U of AZ) having been separated from his family and small amount of friends, but that it would have been unsuccessful. Dylan, to me, alone, would have been the type to attempt suicide but not been
successful; perhaps he would have even gotten the help he so desperately needed.

Dylan as 'Vodka" stood a very good chance of becoming a drinking-casualty even if he didn't commit suicide. By all accounts he drank pretty heavily in high-school, even while running the sound at theater productions. As anyone who has ever been to a University knows, drinking is even more rampant than in your average high-school. So he may have died in a DUI crash or drank himself to death, or something like that.

However, I personally think that after Eric and Dylan had their guns, nothing was going to stop either one of them from killing themselves. I don't think Dylan ever had any intention of going to UAZ. What would have done with his sawed-off shotgun and Tec-9? The minute Dylan was armed his suicide was pretty much inevitable. If Eric never existed he may not have found the gumption to get the guns for himself, but I still think he would have died an early death. Whether a violent suicide or otherwise.
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