Did they really yell "1,2,3" before they killed themselves?

Did they actually say this before they killed themselves or is it just a myth?

It's just a myth.

For me a count down in that situation would mean they needed it as some sort of mental device to hurdle over any hesitation. I think at that point any need for that was long gone.

No. And Eric had his back turned from Dylan. They probably didn't even say anything to each other prior to the suicide. Eric blew his brains out, which then Dylan promptly shot himself in the head right after. Whether he saw Eric's lifeless body before he killed himself is debatable.

How ironic. The guy who talked about always dying all the time, and was afraid of dying alone...still technically died alone. He was the only one conscious in that library for probably 2-3 seconds when Eric killed himself.

We don't know that. It's totally possible and more likely that they pulled the trigger at the same time. Erics knees would have smashed downward instantly as the shotgun went off. Dylan was on his knees at the base of Erics feet. The 1 second (and pardon the pun....TIMBER!!!!) for Dylan to fall over to his right would explain him landing on Erics pant leg. I don't believe there was a count down, but I do believe they shot each other at the same time. P.S The petrol bomb that Dylan lit on the table didn't explode. The fuse burned for a good while which cracked the glass at the top of the flask. Any liquid that spilled over Erics brain matter means nothing.

Of course this is my opinion. I think I just find it easier hoping they did go at the same time....although they just shot and ripped apart screaming, crying children, begging for their lives. They probably didn't give a fuck about each other in the end or ever. Used each other. What a waste :/

This was attributed to Patti Neilson, the art teacher who ran into the library to call 911 and to warn students. After leaving the library to go to the lunchroom/commons she managed to crawl from under the circulation desk to an adjoining room (a media room, I believe) with a couple of other adults. This was attributed to her, but many days after the event she claimed she never stated this. Her statement is included in the 11-K but I’m not sure of the exact details.

Also supposedly some of Eric’s brain matter was UNDERNEATH the last lit molotov cocktail, which is very strong evidence that he committed suicide first.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: Eric was propped up with the upper half of his body at a 90 degree angle with the bookshelves when he shot himself. How in the world could he have had his back turned against Dylan?

One would just have to get to N from the beginning for Patti's statement, page 69. True that it was attributed to her. She said she meant as a hypothetical "I guess they..." or something like it.

"very strong" is to state it too strongly it seems to me. Dylan's brain matter could have simply not got on the table, for one.

"back turned" seems curious to me as well, but presumably he meant covering his back; or rather Dylan's back or at least side turned. That does seem to be the case.

The "1, 2, 3!" story is a quite theatrical version of the way they killed themself, and occasionally it pops out; anyway, I think Patti Nielson was still very traumatized when she told about it, if it was really her.
Probably they didn't even say a word to each other before of their separated suicides, and to think about the probability that Dylan *could* have seen Eric dead with half of his head blown up really give me the shivers: it could have been the last thing he has seen in his life, and it's really awful.

It is hard for me to imagine they said nothing, though they did have the hand signal 'gun to head' for suicide. I assume it means a finger gun but if I want to add a layer of gallows humor to the tragedy I will pretend it meant the actual gun. "You in the library" is what Lisa reports hearing. One can do much fanfic with that. "To all of you in the library, I regret nothing" /postal video game suicide. In fact that's the kind of thing I've come to expect to see in books on the case. It's cool to tie the story together but garbage when they won't make the inference explicit, i. e. "Lisa reported hearing "you in the library". She was shot so she was hallucinating for all we know but she's the best we got. Postal is one possible inspiration for the method of suicide; Eric was known to play Postal. NIN's The Downward Spiral and KMFDM's Piggybank seem other possibilities. Of course it's also just a quick way to go. However video games such as Doom and Duke Nukem 3D seem such major influences on their method, and in those type of games rather than simply a 'game over' screen, the world around you kept going as you were dead. One could do the impossible; experience his own death."

Focusing on Eric's head  traumatizing Dylan is probably an artifact of their photos being the only ones released. That or something stranger. Lance would have been the first shotgun to the head Dylan saw. Chances are he wasn't facing Eric, but facing the other direction, where he would have seen Cassie. It seems like it would have been clinical by that point. Cullen says when they returned Eric walked through all the smelly corpses and Dylan around them, but hard to imagine that's based on their footprints or something.

They seem to have gotten down to have the last shootout with police, and been covering each other. At least several standard sources say Eric was probably covering Dylan's back, and it seems to me with Dylan facing the emergency exit, that's the narrative to weave consistent with the facts. Don't think there's any evidence Dylan was pacing around for a few minutes after Eric killed himself.

You made a lot of good points here, very interesting post!
Anyway, I didn't meant to be "sappy": I know well that Dylan, that day, had seen enough blood and mutilations, many of which were caused directly by him while he was laughing hysterically, by the way.
But maybe, if at the end of it he had really seen his own partner so disfigured by a self inflicted gunshot in his mouth, Dylan could have chosen a less gory way to kill himself, as we know he did. Just a speculation.
P.S.: what an hell of a videogame was Postal   ?

My_mondays wrote:

You made a lot of good points here, very interesting post!
Anyway, I didn't meant to be "sappy": I know well that Dylan, that day, had seen enough blood and mutilations, many of which were caused directly by him while he was laughing hysterically, by the way.
But maybe, if at the end of it he had really seen his own partner so disfigured by a self inflicted gunshot in his mouth, Dylan could have chosen a less gory way to kill himself, as we know he did. Just a speculation.
P.S.: what an hell of a videogame was Postal   ?

Postal was a 'third person shooter' if you like. You run around a neighborhood killing everyone. You 'go postal'. The main character is in a trench coat and sunglasses; Eric looks rather like him in Hitmen for Hire.  When you quit the game he shoots himself in the mouth and says 'I regret nothing', though I don't think it's a shotgun and it's more 'backwards' than 'up' in trajectory. Can look it up on youtube and wiki and such of course.

Dylan had a bullet for the TEC-9 in his shoe, showing he did not change his mind on at least which gun to use for the suicide. A double barrel shotgun wasn't gonna fit in his mouth anyway. Not to mention chances are they didn't face each other; rather they were at right angles to each other. And as far as I can tell from the evidence, Dylan was probably on his knees with eyes closed and gun hovering near his temple. It is fascinating that their suicide method differed, but I hate for such an interesting question to get so often bogged down by the story of Dylan staring Eric in the face and being horrified as if the suicide ruined a kiss.

Hell, there are only two reasons to think Eric went first, and neither of them necessitate that conclusion.   He shot his head off with a shotgun. So, the whole "his brain was UNDERNEATH the molotov!!" doesn't really work. It's not like Dylan's was on top where you can make that inference, nor does it mean Dylan placed the Molotov when Eric was already dead. It could be Eric's brain got on the table and Dylan's didn't. Eric's brain got on the ceiling and Dylan's didn't, for instance. That has nothing to do with who shot first. Dylan didn't take his head off with a shotgun, and he didn't shoot that direction.

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

cakeman wrote:

Postal was a 'third person shooter' if you like. You run around a neighborhood killing everyone. You 'go postal'. The main character is in a trench coat and sunglasses; Eric looks rather like him in Hitmen for Hire.  When you quit the game he shoots himself in the mouth and says 'I regret nothing', though I don't think it's a shotgun. Can look it up on youtube and wiki and such of course.

My question was ironical, from your previous post I can well imagine what kind of videgame it was, with the MC somehow shooting himself in the mouth (so nice...) but I didn't find a lot of info, so thank you. I had already read something about this game in relation to Eric, but if I'm not wrong there was no proof that he really played it, even I if think it's highly probable too.
Anyway, it's very interesting -and creepy- to relate it to the way Eric killed himself.

cakeman wrote:

Dylan had a bullet for the TEC-9 in his shoe, showing he did not change his mind on at least which gun to use for the suicide. A double barrel shotgun wasn't gonna fit in his mouth anyway. Not to mention chances are they didn't face each other; rather they were at right angles to each other. And as far as I can tell from the evidence, Dylan was probably on his knees with eyes closed and gun hovering near his temple. It is fascinating that their suicide method differed, but I hate for such an interesting question to get so often bogged down by the story of Dylan staring Eric in the face and being horrified as if the suicide ruined a kiss.

Of course I'm not a gun or shotgun expert, so I don't know if he might have killed himself with one of his two weapons the same way Eric did, but yes, with the TEC-9 it seems difficult to do.
I'm reading this forum to have more details, too.
Anyway, I don't think someone here believe that Dylan wanted to give a lovely hug to Eric before their suicides but instead he has found himself to face his blowned up face (sorry for the pun) like in a horror movie, lol; personally, I can imagine Dylan looking around before his own suicide and casually seeing Eric dead, or maybe checking on him briefly, and then seeing his lifeless body.
Some of you doubt that this scenario ever happened, and it's very interesting to read all your posts.

My_mondays wrote:

You made a lot of good points here, very interesting post!
Anyway, I didn't meant to be "sappy": I know well that Dylan, that day, had seen enough blood and mutilations, many of which were caused directly by him while he was laughing hysterically, by the way.
But maybe, if at the end of it he had really seen his own partner so disfigured by a self inflicted gunshot in his mouth, Dylan could have chosen a less gory way to kill himself, as we know he did. Just a speculation.
P.S.: what an hell of a videogame was Postal   ?

I believe it's possible that Dylan was shocked/horrified by Eric's death despite the fact that he already saw (and caused) so much death and blood and horror. Neither of them could kill people they actually knew. They couldn't kill people they had conversation with, like Bree, Valeen, Evan Todd. When they saw their potential victims as real human beings, they couldn't kill them. And Eric, without a doubt, was real person for Dylan, his closest friend. So if Dylan really saw his death or his dead body, of course he was horrified.

Ligeya wrote:

They couldn't kill people they had conversation with, like Bree, Valeen, Evan Todd.

Yet Dylan shot Lance Kirklin in the face after mocking his pleas for help, so clearly they didn't give a shit whether they had talked to someone or not. As for Bree, they both made mention of blowing up the school, saying something to the effect of "she's gonna die anyway".

QuestionMark wrote:

Ligeya wrote:

They couldn't kill people they had conversation with, like Bree, Valeen, Evan Todd.

Yet Dylan shot Lance Kirklin in the face after mocking his pleas for help, so clearly they didn't give a shit whether they had talked to someone or not. As for Bree, they both made mention of blowing up the school, saying something to the effect of "she's gonna die anyway".

And Val was shot with rounds filled with glass and sawdust and other shrapnel intentionally to cause worse infections, on top of being in a school that's gonna blow. She would have died without medical attention, or a working bomb. They spoke to the whole library plenty. This is just one of those myths people state confidently.

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Zack Heckler said Eric played Postal, so we know that as much as we know anything. I'm no gun enthusiast either, but Dylan had a double barrel shotgun (Eric had Doom 1's shotgun; Dylan had Doom 2's), so I don't think I need to be one to say that's not going in Dylan's mouth. It wouldn't fit. The bullet in his shoe being for the TEC-9 seals it that he wasn't considering putting the shotgun in his mouth. And then it couldn't have been that Eric changed his mind from using the shotgun; he was never going to.

Here's Postal:

Ligeya wrote:

I believe it's possible that Dylan was shocked/horrified by Eric's death despite the fact that he already saw (and caused) so much death and blood and horror. Neither  of them could kill people they actually knew. They couldn't kill people they had conversation with, like Bree, Valeen, Evan Todd. When they saw their potential victims as real human beings, they couldn't kill them. And Eric, without a doubt, was real person for Dylan, his closest friend. So if Dylan really saw his death or his dead body, of course he was horrified.

I don't know. That day, Eric and Dylan were ready to kill, to die and to see each other die as well; I'm thinking that even if he really has seen Eric dead, at that point Dylan was quite emotionally drained.
Of course, for me is still awful to think about it, but maybe it's mostly my personal sensibility.

cakeman wrote:

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Zach Heckler said Eric played Postal, so we know that as much as we know anything. I'm no gun enthusiast either, but Dylan had a double barrel shotgun (Eric had Doom 1's shotgun; Dylan had Doom 2's), so I don't think I need to be one to say that's not going in Dylan's mouth. It wouldn't fit. The bullet in his shoe being for the TEC-9 seals it that he wasn't considering putting the shotgun in his mouth. And then it couldn't have been that Eric changed his mind from using the shotgun; he was never going to.

Here's Postal:

Thank you so much!

QuestionMark wrote:

Ligeya wrote:

They couldn't kill people they had conversation with, like Bree, Valeen, Evan Todd.

Yet Dylan shot Lance Kirklin in the face after mocking his pleas for help, so clearly they didn't give a shit whether they had talked to someone or not. As for Bree, they both made mention of blowing up the school, saying something to the effect of "she's gonna die anyway".

And Lance is alive. Not because Dylan wanted it, of course, but still.
If they were so sure everybody going to die in explosion, why bother with shooting people in the first place? And they killed 6 people after conversation with Bree.
But anyway, i am pretty sure Dylan would react differently to dead bodies of students he killed and to dead body of his friend.

My_mondays wrote:

Ligeya wrote:

I believe it's possible that Dylan was shocked/horrified by Eric's death despite the fact that he already saw (and caused) so much death and blood and horror. Neither  of them could kill people they actually knew. They couldn't kill people they had conversation with, like Bree, Valeen, Evan Todd. When they saw their potential victims as real human beings, they couldn't kill them. And Eric, without a doubt, was real person for Dylan, his closest friend. So if Dylan really saw his death or his dead body, of course he was horrified.

I don't know. That day, Eric and Dylan were ready to kill, to die and to see each other die as well; I'm thinking that even if he really has seen Eric dead, at that point Dylan was quite emotionally drained.
Of course, for me is still awful to think about it, but maybe it's mostly my personal sensibility.

I personally think Dylan shot himself right after Eric. But i do think his reaction to dead body of his friend, if he saw it, would be different than reaction to dead bodies of people he killed. It's just human nature.

Ligeya wrote:

If they were so sure everybody going to die in explosion, why bother with shooting people in the first place?

Three reasons:
1. To keep everyone in the library cowed and not moving away from the blast.
2. To draw in cops who would have (hypothetically) ran in to stop the killings.
3. To make sure they have a good way to commit suicide.

All true, but I would just invert that: If they weren't shooting people on top of the fact that the library was going to explode, what was Eric talking about? Why did John have to run? Why didn't Evan have to run? Why stop shooting?

cakeman wrote:

A double barrel shotgun wasn't gonna fit in his mouth anyway.

I missed this part the first time you talked about it, sorry. Of course Dylan couldn't have shot himself in the mouth with it. I tend to consider mostly "Arlene" and the TEC-9 when I think about their weapons.

My_mondays wrote:

cakeman wrote:

A double barrel shotgun wasn't gonna fit in his mouth anyway.

I missed this part the first time you talked about it, sorry. Of course Dylan couldn't have shot himself in the mouth with it. I tend to consider mostly "Arlene" and the TEC-9 when I think about their weapons.

No problem, with my English I can hardly imagine being monolingual.  

Yes, all I meant was the size of the weapon is enough to doubt the narrative of Dylan changing his mind about method of suicide due to Eric's head.  On top of what was in his boot. Of course, one could say he was going to use Eric's shotgun, or his TEC-9 in the mouth, but for one that isn't the claim, and for two then why are we assuming he was going to copy Eric's suicide method if he wasn't going to copy by using his own shotgun.

Those are the two weapons they used most in the library, but it's worth noting they each had 2 guns: a shotgun and gun that shoots 9mm...to me quite obviously mimicking the ability to choose between shotgun and other guns in Doom and such video games. The carbine is especially worth remembering, as Eric used the carbine almost the whole time outside. Dylan didn't use the shotgun all that much compared to the others. 3 times off the top of my head: Lance, Kyle, and Matthew. Probably not much fun to crack open a shotgun with each shot other than it being the super shotgun in Doom 2.

Ligeya wrote:

And Lance is alive. Not because Dylan wanted it, of course, but still.

My God, Lance.
I remember some years ago I was online, and somehow I ran into one of the photos of him as he was right after his first face operation in '99, and thought: he seem quite a cute guy, what the hell happened to his face? I made some research, and so for the first time I've learned something about Columbine massacre, which I only knew by reputation.
If I was him I'd just have killed myself, but he really was a strong boy, and he went on with his life.
I saw him in a recent interview on Youtube; luckily is still quite a good looking man despite of what he passed through, but he seems so suffering, thin and worn out, just like an eternal survivor.
Dylan was really disgusting to shoot in the face someone who was lying on the ground and moaning in pain; please, let's not pretend that him and Eric weren't really sadistic that damn day, actually Dylan more than Eric from what we know.

cakeman wrote:

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

All good points but important to keep in mind, the photo you're referencing was taken after the bodies were rolled and shifted, so the bodies were not in that position after death.
According to SWAT testimony, they were facing each other after they fell. Would be very interesting to see everything's position prior to the bodies being moved!

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

All good points but important to keep in mind, the photo you're referencing was taken after the bodies were rolled and shifted, so the bodies were not in that position after death.
According to SWAT testimony, they were facing each other after they fell. Would be very interesting to see everything's position prior to the bodies being moved!

I've heard it many times and I'm not sure that comes from SWAT testimony rather than is a myth of the internet fora, especially that they were facing each other. If it isn't one would have to explain the blood around Dylan's head, and that would compromise the crime scene. If you can make me look silly with the SWAT testimony, by all means.

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

All good points but important to keep in mind, the photo you're referencing was taken after the bodies were rolled and shifted, so the bodies were not in that position after death.
According to SWAT testimony, they were facing each other after they fell. Would be very interesting to see everything's position prior to the bodies being moved!

I've heard it many times and I'm not sure that comes from SWAT testimony rather than is a myth of the internet fora. If it isn't one would have to explain the blood around Dylan's head, and that would compromise the crime scene. If you can make me look silly with the SWAT testimony, by all means.

I'm 90% sure it's from testimony in the 11k, not just internet rumor, but I could be wrong. I'm hopeless at ever finding exactly what I'm searching for in it, but if I am able to find it I'll post. Not trying to make you look silly, I enjoyed your post actually. Just chiming in with a 'hey wait a minute, it's possible that...' that may not be warranted

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

All good points but important to keep in mind, the photo you're referencing was taken after the bodies were rolled and shifted, so the bodies were not in that position after death.
According to SWAT testimony, they were facing each other after they fell. Would be very interesting to see everything's position prior to the bodies being moved!

I've heard it many times and I'm not sure that comes from SWAT testimony rather than is a myth of the internet fora. If it isn't one would have to explain the blood around Dylan's head, and that would compromise the crime scene. If you can make me look silly with the SWAT testimony, by all means.

I'm 90% sure it's from testimony in the 11k, not just internet rumor, but I could be wrong. I'm hopeless at ever finding exactly what I'm searching for in it, but if I am able to find it I'll post. Not trying to make you look silly, I enjoyed your post actually. Just chiming in with a 'hey wait a minute, it's possible that...' that may not be warranted

Don't mean it as if you have bad motives, just that I don't remember that and may be stubborn but enjoy learning more about the case. Don't think they would have taken pictures after kicking the bodies around, and think had they done so things would look quite different. Not sure they would do more than go through their pockets.

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

All good points but important to keep in mind, the photo you're referencing was taken after the bodies were rolled and shifted, so the bodies were not in that position after death.
According to SWAT testimony, they were facing each other after they fell. Would be very interesting to see everything's position prior to the bodies being moved!

I've heard it many times and I'm not sure that comes from SWAT testimony rather than is a myth of the internet fora, especially that they were facing each other. If it isn't one would have to explain the blood around Dylan's head, and that would compromise the crime scene. If you can make me look silly with the SWAT testimony, by all means.

Found one of them regarding their bodies when first discovered, first paragraph
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Hopefully I can find more, as I dislike using only source

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

All good points but important to keep in mind, the photo you're referencing was taken after the bodies were rolled and shifted, so the bodies were not in that position after death.
According to SWAT testimony, they were facing each other after they fell. Would be very interesting to see everything's position prior to the bodies being moved!

I've heard it many times and I'm not sure that comes from SWAT testimony rather than is a myth of the internet fora, especially that they were facing each other. If it isn't one would have to explain the blood around Dylan's head, and that would compromise the crime scene. If you can make me look silly with the SWAT testimony, by all means.

Found one of them regarding their bodies when first discovered, first paragraph
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hopefully I can find more, as I dislike using only source

Ah, well, it certainly says facing each other, but it seems to me that means how he found them, meaning as we saw in the photographs. Had they shot themselves while facing each other, as most have it who believe in that idea, Dylan would die face down on Eric's legs (somehow, not sure he wouldnt fall sideways since he shot himself sideways). They point to blood on Eric's legs, and ignore the much larger amount of blood near Dylan's head. It also doesn't say he kicked Dylan onto his back or something. Hell, he doesn't mention the TEC-9 which Dylan is on top of in the photos, but presumably he would have seen had Dylan been moved there.

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

All good points but important to keep in mind, the photo you're referencing was taken after the bodies were rolled and shifted, so the bodies were not in that position after death.
According to SWAT testimony, they were facing each other after they fell. Would be very interesting to see everything's position prior to the bodies being moved!

I've heard it many times and I'm not sure that comes from SWAT testimony rather than is a myth of the internet fora, especially that they were facing each other. If it isn't one would have to explain the blood around Dylan's head, and that would compromise the crime scene. If you can make me look silly with the SWAT testimony, by all means.

Found one of them regarding their bodies when first discovered, first paragraph
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Hopefully I can find more, as I dislike using only source

Ah, well, it certainly says facing each other, but it seems to me that means how he found them, meaning as we saw in the photographs. Had they shot themselves while facing each other, as most have it who believe in that idea, Dylan would die face down on Eric's legs (somehow, not sure he wouldnt fall sideways since he shot himself sideways). They point to blood on Eric's legs, and ignore the much larger amount of blood near Dylan's head. It also doesn't say he kicked Dylan onto his back or something. Hell, he doesn't mention the TEC-9 which Dylan is on top of in the photos, but presumably he would have seen had Dylan been moved there.

I see twice you mention kicking the bodies, I wasn't trying to imply that at all in my original post. What I recall reading, and what I'm trying to find, is that for safety reasons they had to search the bodies for bombs prior to the photographer coming in and that Dylan was rolled over so they could check under him. Which would mean once the photographer did come in, they weren't in exactly the same position from where they landed after death. Which I believe was even noted in the coroners (?) report, that the blood pools did not match the drip patterns (from Dylan's mouth, etc). I in no way meant to imply that the SWAT members kicked their bodies around.
I'm at my max limit today for reading evidence and need to get my babies in bed, but I will search more tomorrow and hopefully will be able to find more. I hate knowing I read something somewhere and now can't recall the location [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], you seem to be an evidence guru do you know what I'm talking about?

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

All good points but important to keep in mind, the photo you're referencing was taken after the bodies were rolled and shifted, so the bodies were not in that position after death.
According to SWAT testimony, they were facing each other after they fell. Would be very interesting to see everything's position prior to the bodies being moved!

I've heard it many times and I'm not sure that comes from SWAT testimony rather than is a myth of the internet fora, especially that they were facing each other. If it isn't one would have to explain the blood around Dylan's head, and that would compromise the crime scene. If you can make me look silly with the SWAT testimony, by all means.

Found one of them regarding their bodies when first discovered, first paragraph
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hopefully I can find more, as I dislike using only source

Ah, well, it certainly says facing each other, but it seems to me that means how he found them, meaning as we saw in the photographs. Had they shot themselves while facing each other, as most have it who believe in that idea, Dylan would die face down on Eric's legs (somehow, not sure he wouldnt fall sideways since he shot himself sideways). They point to blood on Eric's legs, and ignore the much larger amount of blood near Dylan's head. It also doesn't say he kicked Dylan onto his back or something. Hell, he doesn't mention the TEC-9 which Dylan is on top of in the photos, but presumably he would have seen had Dylan been moved there.

I see twice you mention kicking the bodies, I wasn't trying to imply that at all in my original post. What I recall reading, and what I'm trying to find, is that for safety reasons they had to search the bodies for bombs prior to the photographer coming in and that Dylan was rolled over so they could check under him. Which would mean once the photographer did come in, they weren't in exactly the same position from where they landed after death. Which I believe was even noted in the coroners (?) report, that the blood pools did not match the drip patterns (from Dylan's mouth, etc). I in no way meant to imply that the SWAT members kicked their bodies around.
I'm at my max limit today for reading evidence and need to get my babies in bed, but I will search more tomorrow and hopefully will be able to find more. I hate knowing I read something somewhere and now can't recall the location [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], you seem to be an evidence guru do you know what I'm talking about?

Well whether they used legs or arms to do it it's the same claim one hears often and I am skeptical about. What you posted seemed to me to say "Both were face up lying there dead", not "they were facing each other when they shot themselves."

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

All good points but important to keep in mind, the photo you're referencing was taken after the bodies were rolled and shifted, so the bodies were not in that position after death.
According to SWAT testimony, they were facing each other after they fell. Would be very interesting to see everything's position prior to the bodies being moved!

I've heard it many times and I'm not sure that comes from SWAT testimony rather than is a myth of the internet fora, especially that they were facing each other. If it isn't one would have to explain the blood around Dylan's head, and that would compromise the crime scene. If you can make me look silly with the SWAT testimony, by all means.

Found one of them regarding their bodies when first discovered, first paragraph
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hopefully I can find more, as I dislike using only source

Ah, well, it certainly says facing each other, but it seems to me that means how he found them, meaning as we saw in the photographs. Had they shot themselves while facing each other, as most have it who believe in that idea, Dylan would die face down on Eric's legs (somehow, not sure he wouldnt fall sideways since he shot himself sideways). They point to blood on Eric's legs, and ignore the much larger amount of blood near Dylan's head. It also doesn't say he kicked Dylan onto his back or something. Hell, he doesn't mention the TEC-9 which Dylan is on top of in the photos, but presumably he would have seen had Dylan been moved there.

I see twice you mention kicking the bodies, I wasn't trying to imply that at all in my original post. What I recall reading, and what I'm trying to find, is that for safety reasons they had to search the bodies for bombs prior to the photographer coming in and that Dylan was rolled over so they could check under him. Which would mean once the photographer did come in, they weren't in exactly the same position from where they landed after death. Which I believe was even noted in the coroners (?) report, that the blood pools did not match the drip patterns (from Dylan's mouth, etc). I in no way meant to imply that the SWAT members kicked their bodies around.
I'm at my max limit today for reading evidence and need to get my babies in bed, but I will search more tomorrow and hopefully will be able to find more. I hate knowing I read something somewhere and now can't recall the location [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], you seem to be an evidence guru do you know what I'm talking about?

Well whether they used legs or arms to do it it's the same claim one hears often and I am skeptical about. What you posted seemed to me to say "Both were face up lying there dead", not "they were facing each other when they shot themselves."

How do you reach 'Both were face up lying there dead' when his exact quote is "observed two males on the ground facing one another"? That seems to point to exactly what you said it's not, so I'm confused a bit. But I'm bowing out of this until I have more evidence to source, I dislike debating when I don't have all my facts at hand. For the record, I'm not in that camp that thinks they 'fondly stated at each other before one shot and the other cried blah blah blah'.

There is some information here that will help:

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sororityalpha wrote:

There is some information here that will help:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thank you so much, you were so fast, I really appreciate that! Looks like I still need to do some digging to see where it was stated they had to move/search the bodies for bombs (clearing the school) prior to evidence photographs being taken.

sororityalpha wrote:

There is some information here that will help:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

From this description, it seems like what we've seen in the available death photos, in that the front's of their bodies are angled toward one another.
If trying to interpret it as actually "facing" each other, like, if they were alive and their faces would be looking at one another-
Eric's body, at least the upper portion, appears to be where it landed after his shot. All of the material and blood is around his head in the photo so he wouldn't have been the one to have been moved. As such, for Dylan's face to be toward Eric's face, his body would either have to be perpendicular across Eric's body or Dylan's head would have had to have been angled backward in a really unnatural position.

I think the death photos do show them "facing one another."

Also, this may be what you're looking for with regard to them searching the bodies:
pg. 7823

Quote :

At 2300 hours, I was contacted by the Command Post and was advised to proceed to the Library and meet with a representative
from the Coroner's Office. Upon arrival at the Library. I was informed by the Coroner's Office that they would like me to stand
by while they removed the two suspect bodies. We began removing personal articles from suspect Klebold, and at this time,
the Coroner began to roll suspect Klebold exposing right pants cargo pocket, which had not been searched due to the position
of his body. I cut open the pocket and exposed an additional 8 [redacted]. I placed tape on top of the [redacted] in a venniculite casing. After suspect Klebold's body was removed, we then went to suspect Harris' body. Suspect Harris' body was rolled exposing the left pants cargo pocket. I cut open the pants pocket and removed [redacted] and secured those four in the venniculite case. I then took the case out and secured it in a Bomb Squad vehicle.

Since Dylan is laying mostly on his right side and Eric is laying mostly on his left side in the death photo, it would seem that the searching of the bodies occurred after that photo was taken.

thelmar wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

There is some information here that will help:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

From this description, it seems like what we've seen in the available death photos, in that the front's of their bodies are angled toward one another.
If trying to interpret it as actually "facing" each other, like, if they were alive and their faces would be looking at one another-
Eric's body, at least the upper portion, appears to be where it landed after his shot. All of the material and blood is around his head in the photo so he wouldn't have been the one to have been moved. As such, for Dylan's face to be toward Eric's face, his body would either have to be perpendicular across Eric's body or Dylan's head would have had to have been angled backward in a really unnatural position.

I think the death photos do show them "facing one another."

Also, this may be what you're looking for with regard to them searching the bodies:
pg. 7823

Quote :

At 2300 hours, I was contacted by the Command Post and was advised to proceed to the Library and meet with a representative
from the Coroner's Office. Upon arrival at the Library. I was informed by the Coroner's Office that they would like me to stand
by while they removed the two suspect bodies. We began removing personal articles from suspect Klebold, and at this time,
the Coroner began to roll suspect Klebold exposing right pants cargo pocket, which had not been searched due to the position
of his body. I cut open the pocket and exposed an additional 8 [redacted]. I placed tape on top of the [redacted] in a venniculite casing. After suspect Klebold's body was removed, we then went to suspect Harris' body. Suspect Harris' body was rolled exposing the left pants cargo pocket. I cut open the pants pocket and removed [redacted] and secured those four in the venniculite case. I then took the case out and secured it in a Bomb Squad vehicle.

Since Dylan is laying mostly on his right side and Eric is laying mostly on his left side in the death photo, it would seem that the searching of the bodies occurred after that photo was taken.

That may have very well been what I was remembering, if so thank you. I could have sworn there was testimony that they were searched/cleared prior to the forensic team coming in, but i may be just imagining things at this point either way, thank you

And I guess at this point it's purely semantics, as I look at the photo and see Dylan laging on his back with bent legs and Eric on his side. Nothing I would ever refer to as facing each other.

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

The other reason is blood from Dylan's head on Eric's pant leg, which probably does mean he first landed there, before rolling on his back and letting out the rest of the blood like in the picture. People point to Eric's shotgun underneath his leg, yet Dylan's blood on top, to say Eric shot himself first. Maybe. It raises the chances of that for sure. But I think you can see again this is not some inference necessitating that conclusion, despite being sold that way. Eric could have had his knees raised with shotgun between his legs ready to do it, and Dylan beats him to it and crashes into his leg. Then Eric does it.

That's just as consistent with the facts. And one can make up the kind of psychological just so story one has grown to expect from this case, and it's just as believable as all the others to me. "Eric couldn't take seeing his friend Dylan dead, it made him so sad that he made sure to take off his whole head."

All good points but important to keep in mind, the photo you're referencing was taken after the bodies were rolled and shifted, so the bodies were not in that position after death.
According to SWAT testimony, they were facing each other after they fell. Would be very interesting to see everything's position prior to the bodies being moved!

I've heard it many times and I'm not sure that comes from SWAT testimony rather than is a myth of the internet fora, especially that they were facing each other. If it isn't one would have to explain the blood around Dylan's head, and that would compromise the crime scene. If you can make me look silly with the SWAT testimony, by all means.

Found one of them regarding their bodies when first discovered, first paragraph
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hopefully I can find more, as I dislike using only source

Ah, well, it certainly says facing each other, but it seems to me that means how he found them, meaning as we saw in the photographs. Had they shot themselves while facing each other, as most have it who believe in that idea, Dylan would die face down on Eric's legs (somehow, not sure he wouldnt fall sideways since he shot himself sideways). They point to blood on Eric's legs, and ignore the much larger amount of blood near Dylan's head. It also doesn't say he kicked Dylan onto his back or something. Hell, he doesn't mention the TEC-9 which Dylan is on top of in the photos, but presumably he would have seen had Dylan been moved there.

I see twice you mention kicking the bodies, I wasn't trying to imply that at all in my original post. What I recall reading, and what I'm trying to find, is that for safety reasons they had to search the bodies for bombs prior to the photographer coming in and that Dylan was rolled over so they could check under him. Which would mean once the photographer did come in, they weren't in exactly the same position from where they landed after death. Which I believe was even noted in the coroners (?) report, that the blood pools did not match the drip patterns (from Dylan's mouth, etc). I in no way meant to imply that the SWAT members kicked their bodies around.
I'm at my max limit today for reading evidence and need to get my babies in bed, but I will search more tomorrow and hopefully will be able to find more. I hate knowing I read something somewhere and now can't recall the location [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], you seem to be an evidence guru do you know what I'm talking about?

Well whether they used legs or arms to do it it's the same claim one hears often and I am skeptical about. What you posted seemed to me to say "Both were face up lying there dead", not "they were facing each other when they shot themselves."

How do you reach 'Both were face up lying there dead' when his exact quote is "observed two males on the ground facing one another"? That seems to point to exactly what you said it's not, so I'm confused a bit. But I'm bowing out of this until I have more evidence to source, I dislike debating when I don't have all my facts at hand. For the record, I'm not in that camp that thinks they 'fondly stated at each other before one shot and the other cried blah blah blah'.

Because that's the same thing? On the ground facing each other. Not facing each other at the time of gunshot, which is usually depicted as resulting in Dylan face down on Eric's leg originally. As thelmar seems to agree, he probably meant "facing each other" on their side, Eric on his left and Dylan on his right, which is like the photographs.

Regardless, the point is a simple one. We need them facing each other before death, not after; and that to be an inference from their death positions, not a description of it. As best I can tell, if you put Dylan upright on his knees, they're at right angles to each other. And plenty of orthodox sources (e. g. Cullen) will say it looked like Eric was covering Dylan's back. The blood on Eric's legs seem to be from the wound hitting it, not his face; falling sideways, toppling over in the direction he shot, then rolling over himself (or at least his top half) before dying hence all the blood around his head. If he died on Eric's legs until moved by SWAT, then that's where the big blood pool would be.

cakeman wrote:

Because that's the same thing? On the ground facing each other. Not facing each other at the time of gunshot, which is usually depicted as resulting in Dylan face down on Eric's leg originally. As thelmar seems to agree, he probably meant "facing each other" on their side, Eric on his left and Dylan on his right, which is like the photographs.

Regardless, the point is a simple one. We need them facing each other before death, not after; and that to be an inference from their death positions, not a description of it. As best I can tell, if you put Dylan upright on his knees, they're at right angles to each other. And plenty of orthodox sources (e. g. Cullen) will say it looked like Eric was covering Dylan's back. The blood on Eric's legs seem to be from the wound hitting it, not his face; falling sideways, toppling over in the direction he shot, then rolling over himself (or at least his top half) before dying hence all the blood around his head. If he died on Eric's legs until moved by SWAT, then that's where the big blood pool would be.

Then that's my fault for not understanding the initial debate, I do not believe Dylan died on Eric's legs, nor was I trying to argue that fact.
I get testy when I see comments elsewhere about Dylan crying over Eric and how their suicide was so romantic, sometimes I comment too soon. (Also want to add I'm not trying to imply that that is your ideology either)

Bugg wrote:

Then that's my fault for not understanding the initial debate, I do not believe Dylan died on Eric's legs, nor was I trying to argue that fact.

Honest question, as there may be more than one interpretation to your statement. Forensic evidence shows Dylan's blood was on the pantleg of Eric's left knee. A piece of Dylan's skull was on one side of Eric's knee (between his legs) and Dylan's hat was on the other side of the knee. Based on this, you agree that Dylan fell onto Eric after he was shot?
If so, then I interpret your above statement to mean that you don't think Dylan died there on Eric's knee, but had moved after falling and died closer to the position that we see in the picture. This is my view, as well.
If it's not yours, I'd be interested in hearing what your thoughts are.

So evidence to support Randy Brown's theory comes from the deduction of forum posters with zero history or credibility in forensics?

Professionals came to the conclusion in 1999 that Dylan died after Eric. Even if we want to play that game does everyone really think Eric would wait for Dylan to set up the molotov cocktail before executing him with Dylan's gun?

thelmar wrote:

Bugg wrote:

Then that's my fault for not understanding the initial debate, I do not believe Dylan died on Eric's legs, nor was I trying to argue that fact.

Honest question, as there may be more than one interpretation to your statement. Forensic evidence shows Dylan's blood was on the pantleg of Eric's left knee. A piece of Dylan's skull was on one side of Eric's knee (between his legs) and Dylan's hat was on the other side of the knee. Based on this, you agree that Dylan fell onto Eric after he was shot?
If so, then I interpret your above statement to mean that you don't think Dylan died there on Eric's knee, but had moved after falling and died closer to the position that we see in the picture. This is my view, as well.
If it's not yours, I'd be interested in hearing what your thoughts are.

Correct! But my stance is more against the romanticized version thrown around where Dylan was so devastated by Eric's death that he cried over him and shot himself as close to Eric as he could, in emotional agony that his best friend was dead. I try to find anything I can to deny the Tumblr-ina version. I hope that makes sense?

Ivan wrote:

So evidence to support Randy Brown's theory comes from the deduction of forum posters with zero history or credibility in forensics?

Professionals came to the conclusion in 1999 that Dylan died after Eric. Even if we want to play that game does everyone really think Eric would wait for Dylan to set up the molotov cocktail before executing him with Dylan's gun?

Randy is adamant, 100% sure, without a doubt Eric killed dylan. He says on Reddit it's because of shot placement. Which makes zero sense to me.

ETA - I believe he also wrote that through his study of the death picture, Eric murdering Dylan is the only logical answer.

Bugg wrote:

Ivan wrote:

So evidence to support Randy Brown's theory comes from the deduction of forum posters with zero history or credibility in forensics?

Professionals came to the conclusion in 1999 that Dylan died after Eric. Even if we want to play that game does everyone really think Eric would wait for Dylan to set up the molotov cocktail before executing him with Dylan's gun?

Randy is adamant, 100% sure, without a doubt Eric killed dylan. He says on Reddit it's because of shot placement. Which makes zero sense to me.

ETA - I believe he also wrote that through his study of the death picture, Eric murdering Dylan is the only logical answer.

He just wants attention. All his theories, including his son finding Eric's website (he didn't) are false. The Brown's history of lying must run in the family.