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 Did They Know Who They Killed

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PostSubject: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 1:45 pm

Do you think Eric or Dylan killed, wounded, or shot at anyone specifically because they recognized them? (Other than Isaiah Shoels , obviously.)
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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 2:04 pm

I don't even think they knew Isaiah by name, they just seen him as "some black kid" if you ask me.
People repeatedly mentioned that they used "a nigger" and "some nigger" instead of "the nigger'. I don;t think they were all that familiar with him.

I think Dylan might have shot Kyle because he was mentally handicapped and just looked odd. But its just speculation. I think they might have recognized Dave Sanders, if nothing else than recognizing him as a teacher who they seen around school.

I certainly don't think anyone was specifically seeked out.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 2:15 pm

They knew Isaiah. They had run-ins with him prior to NBK. His father mentioned that Isaiah was afraid for his life due to threats made against him by kids at school. It would be impossible not to know Isaiah @ Columbine because there were so few African American students.

I agree on Kyle. Dylan shot him with purpose. He had a thing against special needs kids which I went into at great length as I recall, before I was banned from the forum a year or more ago. His mother worked with special needs kids, etc...

I think Eric recognized Dave Sanders; he was a coach and he was known to take the side of jocks in instances of bullying.

I think they recognized Rachel and Richard. Also Matt Ketcher, John Tomlin, and Lauren Townsend.

On the 911 library tape if you listen closely you can hear Dylan scream "THOSE BITCHES ARE STILL RIGHT OVER THERE!" just before he unloads on the girls with his Tec-9.

Corey, Matt, Isaiah, Lauren, Rachel, John and Dave Sanders certainly represent the school establishment.

I think both of the boys were obsessive about CHS. They knew most teachers and administrators and many of the kids by name and face. They poured over their yearbooks and kept track of the school hierarchy constantly. I think the odds are pretty good that they identified a number of their victims during NBK.
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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 2:22 pm

I think they knew him "in pasing", but I doubt they knew Isaiah by name.
Also the kids that were making threats to Isaiah were actually on one of the sports teams, so its not Eric or Dylan iirc.

I don't think they recognized Matt or John or Lauren. They didn't have classes with them and only Lauren was in the same age group.

Even if he adressed them as bitches, that hardly proved he knew them in person.

They did know Rachel. We know for certain Dylan knew Rachel from theatre and from smoking. People mentioend seeing Dylan and Rachel talk and some witness in the 11k even wrote that they were friends.

Wether or not Dylan and/or Eric recognized Rachel on 4/20 is another story. She recently cut her hair short, plus Eric shot her from quite some distance.

I do not recall anyone ever mentioning they knew Castaldo. I doubt they knew him. I think they only victim they knew was Rachel.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 2:40 pm

Sabratha wrote:
I think they knew him "in pasing", but I doubt they knew Isaiah by name.
Also the kids that were making threats to Isaiah were actually on one of the sports teams, so its not Eric or Dylan iirc.

I don't think they recognized Matt or John or Lauren. They didn't have classes with them and only Lauren was in the same age group.

Even if he adressed them as bitches, that hardly proved he knew them in person.

They did know Rachel. We know for certain Dylan knew Rachel from theatre and from smoking. People mentioend seeing Dylan and Rachel talk and some witness in the 11k even wrote that they were friends.

Wether or not Dylan and/or Eric recognized Rachel on 4/20 is another story. She recently cut her hair short, plus Eric shot her from quite some distance.

I do not recall anyone ever mentioning they knew Castaldo. I doubt they knew him. I think they only victim they knew was Rachel.

I think you may be underestimating how much knowing the social hierarchy at CHS and who comprised its echelons meant to the boys. I also think you may be mistaken about the Isaiah/Jock incident.

Here is another thing. Brooks Brown mentions that the CHS library was the "refuge" for himself, Eric, Dylan, and other during their underclassmen years at the school. The boys would have been very familiar with the way cliques separated in the library into group-tables. Kelly's father mentioned how she was found dead near the "real leaders of the school" and that proved she had broken out of her shell. That's just the kind of thought-process that made NBK so attractive to the boys. I think the pecking order at CHS was well known to everyone involved, parents, kids, teachers... I think it was the main order of business at the school fueled by the administration and many of the parents as well as the kids themselves.

They would not have called Isaiah by name because of their racist bravado. Doesn't mean that they didn't know who he was. If they didn't care, why did they ask John Savage to identify himself? Same for Evan Todd.


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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 4:32 pm

Quote :
I think you may be underestimating how much knowing the social hierarchy at CHS and who comprised its echelons meant to the boys. I also think you may be mistaken about the Isaiah/Jock incident.

It was one of the Shoels family members who stated that Isiaiah was called names, including some racist ones and dismissed by memebrs of the team. That's why he was thinking of quiting sports at CHS shortly before his death (and I think he did quit some team in late 1998 iirc)

Quote :
hat's just the kind of thought-process that made NBK so attractive to the boys.
I stated this many times, but I believe it didn't matter much in the end for Dylan and especially for Eric.

When Eric writes about the school he does not write a single word about jocks or CHS hierarchy. What he does mention? He writes how school is brainwashing people to become robots and future "factory workers", devoid of natural instincts and taught to be happy with mediocre lives in society floating "down the stream of life".

Eric Harris wrote:
Ever wonder why we go to school? Besides getting a so-called education. (...)It’s society’s way of turning all the young people into good little robots and factory workers. That’s why we sit in desks in rows and go by bell schedules, to get prepared for the real world because ‘ that’s what it’s like.’
(...)You aren’t human. You are a Robot. You don’t take advantage of your capabilities given to you at birth. You just drop them and hop onto the boat and head down the stream of life with all the other fuckers of your type. Well god damn I won’t be part of it!

Eric is grandiose and his is a "wide" look like that of Rachel Scott. He doesn't bother himself writing about local jocks, he's aiming at society itself. At the social order that is turning young people into "robots".

That's Eric for you.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 4:38 pm

Sure, the school was a microcosm for society as a whole. However, Eric also went through and marked out students in his yearbook with an "X" -- kept a hit-list of specific people he wanted to murder and issued specific threats to specific kids at Columbine. The boys hacked into the school computers to get locker #'s of people they wanted to harass. They used rebel missions to target individual people who pissed them off.

"I stated this many times, but I believe it didn't matter much in the end for Dylan and especially for Eric."

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean here by "it." Care to elaborate?

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 4:40 pm

Sabratha wrote:
Quote :
I think you may be underestimating how much knowing the social hierarchy at CHS and who comprised its echelons meant to the boys. I also think you may be mistaken about the Isaiah/Jock incident.

It was one of the Shoels family members who stated that Isiaiah was called names, including some racist ones and dismissed by memebrs of the team. That's why he was thinking of quiting sports at CHS shortly before his death (and I think he did quit some team in late 1998 iirc)


Can someone provide a link to this info, please? Funny how, if this is true, Shoels was hiding under a table with other jocks when he was killed.
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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 4:46 pm

Prolly not the same jocks that were calling him names. Jocks in CHS were a varied bunch, Larkin's interviews prove it.

I'l find the video interview later if time allows (its night here and I need to go to work tomorrow), but acolumbinesite mentions this incident:
"He (Isaiah) had played cornerback the previous year on the football team but his father claimed he quit possibly because of racial intimidation"
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Denver post mentions the same interview:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Corey Depooter was also known to ahve quit the wrestling team because he hated the fact that people were racist there nad he didn't want to be associated with racists.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 5:29 pm

Thanks for the links and the clarification on this point. Yes, CHS was a vicious clawing society with many cliques -- just like most other places where people congregate or live together.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 10, 2015 6:09 pm

Maybe at some points at least, they did know who they were killing. Maybe some of the victims were chosen as part of their (or at least Eric's) 'natural selection'. Do you think his t-shirt was serious, or just meant to mess with people? After all the problems they had with bullying and other students, it is hard for me to believe that they in no way specifically targeted victims.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSat Jul 11, 2015 1:56 pm

eli27 wrote:
Maybe at some points at least, they did know who they were killing. Maybe some of the victims were chosen as part of their (or at least Eric's) 'natural selection'. Do you think his t-shirt was serious, or just meant to mess with people? After all the problems they had with bullying and other students, it is hard for me to believe that they in no way specifically targeted victims.

I doubt it. Only victims that could be classidfied as athletess were Kechter, Depooter and Shoels. And even in their case people would just say these were sports guys or athletes, not really jocks or members of the in-crowd. Shoels and Depooter had actually quit the teams because they didn't like the vibes going on among CHS jocks.

The other kids they shot at were not bullies or even athletes. In fact these were also nerds (Mauser), former satanist (Cassie), loners (Flemming), depressed kids (Rachel), mentally handicapped kid (Kyle). The others were just random normal kids too.

I think even in one of Larkin's interviews iirc (or was it mentioned by Kass?) there's a quote by someone saying: "They killed the wrong people". Certainly CHS students didn't have an impression that bullies and jocks were the ones who got killed.


Plus rememebr that in essence the event was planned as a bombing McVeigh style. Bombs aren't picky and there relaly chould ahve been anyone in teh cafeteria during the blast.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSat Jul 11, 2015 2:19 pm

Sabratha wrote:
eli27 wrote:
Maybe at some points at least, they did know who they were killing. Maybe some of the victims were chosen as part of their (or at least Eric's) 'natural selection'. Do you think his t-shirt was serious, or just meant to mess with people? After all the problems they had with bullying and other students, it is hard for me to believe that they in no way specifically targeted victims.

I doubt it. Only victims that could be classidfied as athletess were Kechter, Depooter and Shoels. And even in their case people would just say these were sports guys or athletes, not really jocks or members of the in-crowd. Shoels and Depooter had actually quit the teams because they didn't like the vibes going on among CHS jocks.

The other kids they shot at were not bullies or even athletes. In fact these were also nerds (Mauser), former satanist (Cassie), loners (Flemming), depressed kids (Rachel), mentally handicapped kid (Kyle). The  others were just random normal kids too.  

I think even in one of Larkin's interviews iirc (or was it mentioned by Kass?) there's a quote by someone saying: "They killed the wrong people". Certainly CHS students didn't have an impression that bullies and jocks were the ones who got killed.


Plus rememebr that in essence the event was planned as a bombing McVeigh style. Bombs aren't picky and there relaly chould ahve been anyone in teh cafeteria during the blast.


None of that precludes them from targeting (or not targeting) specific individuals once the improvised attack started.  If you are going to kill purely for gratuitous pleasure and that is what the boys were doing because they fully believed that the BLEVE explosion would kill them all, then the most pleasure would come from killing those that held some kind of trophy status for you. Saying this does NOT mean that they didn't want to kill everyone they could reach; it simply means they took pleasure in "close up" kills by targeting the individuals who most  closely matched the jock/bitch profile given the circumstances of the general mayhem of the attack, and their limited time and nerves. Also, the facts clearly show that a significant percentage of those killed or wounded had ties to the upper echelons of the school hierarchy, including such notable victims as Lauren, Corey, Matt, Isaiah, Sanders, and Rachel, among others.
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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSat Jul 11, 2015 2:36 pm

Gustopoet2 wrote:
Sabratha wrote:
eli27 wrote:
Maybe at some points at least, they did know who they were killing. Maybe some of the victims were chosen as part of their (or at least Eric's) 'natural selection'. Do you think his t-shirt was serious, or just meant to mess with people? After all the problems they had with bullying and other students, it is hard for me to believe that they in no way specifically targeted victims.

I doubt it. Only victims that could be classidfied as athletess were Kechter, Depooter and Shoels. And even in their case people would just say these were sports guys or athletes, not really jocks or members of the in-crowd. Shoels and Depooter had actually quit the teams because they didn't like the vibes going on among CHS jocks.

The other kids they shot at were not bullies or even athletes. In fact these were also nerds (Mauser), former satanist (Cassie), loners (Flemming), depressed kids (Rachel), mentally handicapped kid (Kyle). The  others were just random normal kids too.  

I think even in one of Larkin's interviews iirc (or was it mentioned by Kass?) there's a quote by someone saying: "They killed the wrong people". Certainly CHS students didn't have an impression that bullies and jocks were the ones who got killed.


Plus rememebr that in essence the event was planned as a bombing McVeigh style. Bombs aren't picky and there relaly chould ahve been anyone in teh cafeteria during the blast.


None of that precludes them from targeting (or not targeting) specific individuals once the improvised attack started.  If you are going to kill purely for gratuitous pleasure and that is what the boys were doing because they fully believed that the BLEVE explosion would kill them all, then the most pleasure would come from killing those that held some kind of trophy status for you. Saying this does NOT mean that they didn't want to kill everyone they could reach; it simply means they took pleasure in "close up" kills by targeting the individuals who most  closely matched the jock/bitch profile given the circumstances of the general mayhem of the attack, and their limited time and nerves. Also, you can say whatever you like but the facts clearly show that a significant percentage of those killed or wounded had ties to the upper echelons of the school hierarchy, including such notable victims as Lauren, Corey, Matt, Isaiah, and Rachel, among others.

Seems to me like maybe their main goal was the more the merrier (bombs), but that some of the victims were specifically those who they disliked/gave them problems - though possibly only by coincidence? Also, I think that Kyle may well have been a specific target, since Dylan killed him and didn't he have a thing against disabled kids, and was it anything to do with his mum? I can't remember.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSat Jul 11, 2015 3:36 pm

We have to remember that they didn't even look at (most of) the victims, when they shot them under the tables. The survivors have told that they only saw the boots and the ends of their guns (not faces), so E/D probably didn't see their faces either. That's why they had to ask John Savage to identify himself.
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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSat Jul 11, 2015 5:20 pm

John Denver wrote:
We have to remember that they didn't even look at (most of) the victims, when they shot them under the tables. The survivors have told that they only saw the boots and the ends of their guns (not faces), so E/D probably didn't see their faces either. That's why they had to ask John Savage to identify himself.

Yes, but they would have known what the usual seating arrangements were in the library -- what tables the "jocks and bitches" preferred -- just like in the commons. In fact just picking out the library as a place to go shooting in itself increased the odds they'd hit clique-members because that is where they would most likely be if they weren't in the cafeteria. The TCM type people and other outcasts would be at "Smoker's Pit." Yes, I know "cool" kids sometimes went there, too -- I am talking in overall numbers.

That said, I am not entirely sure about them not looking at who they shot. Sure, Eric may have fired under a table or two without looking, but he sure looked right at Cassie. Eric interrogated Bree; Dylan, Evan Todd, and others. Eric looked right at Daniel Mauser -- "Nice glasses." And I bet he knew he was a Star Wars geek. Eric also shot Dave Sanders and you can bet he recognized him. Dylan shot Lauren and one of the other girls said "I can't believe you just shot Lauren! You've killed her" or something to this effect. I bet Eric even recognized Evan Todd when he first came in to the library if not by name, as a jock-at-large.

If you look at the events very closely it starts to appear that they were, in fact, fairly deliberate and selective about who they were shooting or even whom they were trying to shoot.

I am not suggesting that they necessarily recognized all or any of these students by name, although that may be the case, but I am saying they knew the type they wanted to kill up close and personal. I think they came to the library expecting to find good targets and not just Peggy Dodd.


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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSat Jul 11, 2015 5:23 pm

John Denver wrote:
We have to remember that they didn't even look at (most of) the victims, when they shot them under the tables. The survivors have told that they only saw the boots and the ends of their guns (not faces), so E/D probably didn't see their faces either. That's why they had to ask John Savage to identify himself.

Why would they ask anyone, let alone John Savage, specifically to identify themselves if they didn't care who they were shooting?
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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSun Jul 12, 2015 5:18 am

Gustopoet2 wrote:

None of that precludes them from targeting (or not targeting) specific individuals once the improvised attack started.  If you are going to kill purely for gratuitous pleasure and that is what the boys were doing because they fully believed that the BLEVE explosion would kill them all, then the most pleasure would come from killing those that held some kind of trophy status for you. Saying this does NOT mean that they didn't want to kill everyone they could reach; it simply means they took pleasure in "close up" kills by targeting the individuals who most  closely matched the jock/bitch profile given the circumstances of the general mayhem of the attack, and their limited time and nerves. Also, the facts clearly show that a significant percentage of those killed or wounded had ties to the upper echelons of the school hierarchy, including such notable victims as Lauren, Corey, Matt, Isaiah, Sanders, and Rachel, among others.

AFAIK none of the killed kids was described as being in the social elite. Depooter and Kechter were not very popular, even though they did dabble with sports. Shoels and his whole family were widely disliked in the community before and even after the shooting.

Rachel was widely known and liked, but she was in no way part of the jokck&friends circle and no way a "christian party girl" like some described in the Larkin interviews. If anything people thought of her as part of the roughly undefined "middle class" of CHS, a person described by her interests "drama/art girl", ratehr then an outcast or a social elite person.

Savage was spared on purpode - Dylan remembered him from class and probably liked him. I think he said "identify yourself" because it was loud, he was in a hurry and sounded less awkward than: "You, wait... you are that kid from my class... what's your name again?"
Dylan was never big friends with John, but he vaguely reclaled him and that prolly saved his life.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSun Jul 12, 2015 5:25 am

I think you should go back and listen to Bree Pasquale's interview. After-all she was there and face to face with the killers.



"They were killing anyone of color or who played a sport or who wore a white hat."

"Saying it was all because people were mean to him last year."

It is not the relative position in the school hierarchy on any given day that the individual kids held that mattered it is what they represented to Eric and Dylan symbolically on very superficial criteria. Just the way they were dressed, where they were sitting, or who they were with was enough.

On the Savage incident, why ask anyone to identify themselves if you don't care who you are killing?

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSun Jul 12, 2015 5:37 am

Well "anyone of color" was just this one black kid. And yeah they called him a nigger and made racist comments about his death too.

If you ask me, they were just trying to intimidate, scare, and mentaly scar people there.They were on a power-trip. The racist comments were a part of that, so was peakaboo, Dylan telling people: "You have been giving us shit!" and Eric shouting: "Who wants to die next?".

I think even Eric's dazed questions to Val ("You wanna die?" repeated over and over) was just that. Even in his dazed state after braking his nose, Eriic wa still trying to intimidate people "half-on-autopilot".

Gustopoet2 wrote:
On the Savage incident, why ask anyone to identify themselves if you don't care who you are killing?
Well, first of all if everythign went to plan and the bombs would have nrought down the library, then Savage would be dead, along with Amanda, Val, Bree and everyone else who was there in that moment. That's the first thing we need to rememebr - they were trying to kill a lot of people with a bomb and cared about who ws gonna die no more than McVeigh did.
By all evidence, Eric looked up to McVeigh and the CHS bombing was directly inspired by the Murragh bombing.

Still, its different to have a bomb blast from having a finger on the trigger and making a "lives or dies" decision. Both got off on that, but given said decision Dylan decided to let John live because he knew him (though probably not to the point of recalling his name) and prolly preferred to let him live. He asked John to identify himself because asking: "Are you like taht dude who was in class with me?" would sound silly and awkward in the circumstances.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSun Jul 12, 2015 2:11 pm

I'm quite familiar with NBK and the bomb-plot...

You didn't answer my question: why would they ask anyone at all to "identify" themselves if they didn't care about who they were killing?

The answer is: they did care. They cared because they wanted to kill people up close and personal that most closely fit their target profile and who were available to them at the point. Their main targets were: jocks, bitches, and cops. And that is precisely who they expended the most rounds and energy trying to hit. And it is jocks and other representatives of the school hierarchy that comprise the lion's share of the dead.

I usually hate it when people invoke "Occam's Razor" but I think it applies here. The boys planted the bombs under the jock table on purpose; failing that explosion they went to the library which was a target-rich environment for "jocks and bitches" exactly the type of people they wanted to kill. Once they were in the library, they killed  athletes, an African American, a "Star Wars" geek, and they didn't kill people like Bree and John Savage, who did not fit the profile.

While they were doing these things they verbally stated they were targeting "jocks," "bitches," and minorities.

None of this means that didn't intend to kill everyone they could; it simply means that they had specific, preferred target types and they stuck to them as best they could given the circumstances.

The simplest and most fitting interpretation given the facts is that we should take the boys at their word regarding who they felt it was most fun and meaningful to murder up close and personal that day.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeTue Jul 14, 2015 11:29 am

Here’s my list of people Eric and Dylan might have recognized. Can anyone add names to it?

Tim Kastle

Kastle played fantasy baseball with Dylan and interacted with Eric and Dylan on a daily basis. Kastle claims Dylan stuck his head into the ceiling as Kastle was climbing through a duct or vent toward the west wall. Dylan was supposedly located near the kitchen bathroom.

11K wrote:
As KASTLE reached the area of the west wall, he looked back to the area over the bathroom in the kitchen area. As he did, he observed a subject in that area, whose head was just above the ceiling area. KASTLE said that the subject was pointing what he believed was a shotgun at him. KASTLE stated that it was dark, and he could not see the subject well. KASTLE stated that he believed that the subject was Dylan KLEBOLD. He said he based this on the fact that the subject had not shot him, as KASTLE advised he is a friend of KLEBOLD's. KASTLE stated that the hair he described did not fit KLEBOLD, and nothing about what he observed of the subject led him to his conclusion that the subject could be KLEBOLD (3418).


Given that Kastle could not see very well, we can’t conclude that Dylan saw Kastle and recognized him, or that it was even Dylan looking at him.


Makai Hall

Hall had been partners with Dylan in French class the year before. His short victim statement is buried in a hospital interview on 8887. He has no standalone statement in the 11k that I can find. Hall identifies Dylan as the person who shot him, but told CBS that it was from “a distance” and told JCSO that Dylan had fired indiscriminately under the table. Hall believes that Dylan did not recognize him.

11K wrote:
[Hall] didn't believe that Dylan would have shot him [h]ad he known it was him, but since he was sitting with the jocks, he assumed that he was probably lumped into that group by Dylan.


Valeen Schnurr

Schnurr says that she “knew [Harris] from school” (133) but does not say if she knew him personally. She has trouble identifying Dylan Klebold even though she saw him walk slowly by the library. She is only able to ID him after she sees his picture in the media. She says the shooters never used anyone’s name. While they engaged her in dialogue after she fell from under the table, it is not clear if the shooters got a good look at her face, because according to her diagram Table 4 was between them and she was on the ground, and she only glanced at them briefly, facing north during most of the exchange. She does not visually ID Harris as the one questioning her despite knowing him. All of this leads me to conclude that they did not recognize her, though Harris might have.

Jeanna Park

“Park recalled seeing Dylan Klebold run by the library window carrying a big gun prior to the shooting in the library starting” (115). “Park stated she is familiar with Dylan Klebold's voice because she has taken a class with him before” (115). So she obviously knew him. However, there is no indication that they actually saw her face or recognized her, because she was under the table the whole time.

John Savage

John Savage had classes with Eric and Dylan, was friendly with Eric, and was on stage crew with Dylan. He immediately recognizes them as soon as they walk into the library. As far as I can tell he is the only one who does. It is not clear to me if Eric recognizes John. Eric points a gun at him and John slides away from it, and Eric says “Identiy yourself,” which implies that Eric recognized him but didn’t know his name. Dylan definitely recognizes him because he recognizes the sound of his voice and calls him John Savage.

Interestingly John Savage claims that Eric Harris looked under all the tables in the library, more or less (570). This plus the fact that he spoke to John might suggest that Eric was looking for people he might recognize. The fact that he only spoke to John might suggest that he didn’t know anyone else.

Evan Todd

Evan Todd says that he recognized Eric upon seeing him in the hall through a library window (168). He says he saw him every day at school. Eric makes eye contact with Todd and shoots at him. Todd also says he knew Dylan by name. Dylan asks Todd “Are you a jock?,” which suggests that he did not know him.
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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeTue Jul 14, 2015 2:38 pm

Neil Gardner said he recognized Eric and Dylan on the day of the shooting. He said he knew they were TCM associates and that he had been informed that Eric "might be capable of making some bombs."

I think it is very likely that Eric and Dylan also recognized him during NBK. They would have known Gardner was the usual Columbine Cop, so to speak.






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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeTue Jul 14, 2015 10:50 pm

Eric did care who he killed. He said so himself. He said that there were around 100 people he didn't want dead. Obviously Dylan did know who John was, not only did he address him as 'John' but he addressed him as 'John Savage'.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 15, 2015 12:32 am

Frank DeAngelis:

If I'm not mistaken, DeAngelis mentioned in a couple of interviews that he was being shot at as well. There's no doubt the boys recognized him.

DeAngelis describes the attack @ 9:53 in the following video:  

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Brian Anderson:

"Brian was inside the school, heading for the west entrance with a few friends when he saw two teens standing just inside the first set of double glass doors. He recognized Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, and noticed that both were holding guns...He had just passed through the first set of double doors when Eric turned and fired on him, breaking the glass door behind him. Fragments of glass hit him and he fell backwards" [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It's possible that Eric may have (mutually) recognized Brian just as he entered the school and shot.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 15, 2015 12:57 am

Matt Kechter:

"Matt...was a sturdy 210 pound Sophomore: He played on both the offensive and defensive lines of the football team...He was a weight lifter and an 'A' student, always getting good grades in school...Matt was in the library studying when the shooting began. He had been seated at a table with his friend, Craig Scott (brother of victim Rachel Scott). When the teacher ran in and told everyone to get down, both boys hid under the table they had been sitting at and were joined by Matt's fellow athlete and friend, Isaiah Shoels."

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 15, 2015 9:30 am

Gustopoet2 wrote:

You didn't answer my question: why would they ask anyone at all to "identify" themselves if they didn't care about who they were killing?
Let me quote myself:

Me wrote:
He asked John to identify himself because asking: "Are you like that dude who was in class with me?" would sound silly and awkward in the circumstances.

Gustopoet wrote:
Their main targets were: jocks, bitches, and cops. And that is precisely who they expended the most rounds and energy trying to hit. And it is jocks and other representatives of the school hierarchy that comprise the lion's share of the dead.

Two athletes and two ex-atheltes among 13 dead and 24 wounded? How does that make a "Lion's share"?

The only athlete killed was Matt Kechter and nobody ever described him a a popular kid or one who would hang out and partty with the jock elites.

Only wounded athlete was iirc Todd.

Shoels and Depooter were ex-athletes, as they had already quit CHS sports teams last year. Both had sour relations with jocks. Isaiah because of his skin color, while Corey iirc had a grudge and a feud with the wresting CHS team and he was talking to a marine recruited wanting to become a marine after graduation. Depooter was friends with outcasts like Mike Vendengia.

None of the girls killed was a part of the "in-crowd" or was a girlfriend of any elite jock etc. Rachel didn't hang out with the "christian party people" - on the contrary, she seems to have friend with the 'out-crowd". Brooks mentions that, includign his own interactions with her. At one point Rachel was dating a guy who was once a good friend of Dylan (N.Baumgart).

Gustopoet2 wrote:
they went to the library which was a target-rich environment for "jocks and bitches" exactly the type of people they wanted to kill.
A library beign a jock-rich environment? Really? Wouldn't the gym be a better place?


Gustopoet2 wrote:
Once they were in the library, they killed  athletes, an African American, a "Star Wars" geek, and they didn't kill people like Bree and John Savage, who did not fit the profile.
Dylan told Eric to kill Bree but Eric spaced out after hitting his nose and then Dylan distratced him by aclling him to see Shoels.

Val stalled them and talked her way out of being killed. Bree imho survived on luck alone.

Gustopoet2 wrote:
The simplest and most fitting interpretation given the facts is that we should take the boys at their word regarding who they felt it was most fun and meaningful to murder up close and personal that day.
Except that the facts don't support this. They didn't kill anyone who was a part of the in-crowd. The only illed athlete was Kechter, Dylan and Eric didn't know him, he was 2 years younger than they were. They might not have even known that he was an athlete.

They mostly killed unpopular kids, nerds and artsy kids. That's what it goes down to. There's several people like Savage and Kastle who migth hav been spared on purpose, the rest were fair game and targets of opportunity more than anything else.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 15, 2015 11:17 am

You did not answer my question: why they asked anyone to identify themselves if it didn't matter who they were killing.

That's OK tho, because the question is basically rhetorical. It is obvious that the boys targeted people who most fit the profile they had in mind.

As for the rest... I respect your opinion, but we clearly disagree. The facts do not line up in your favor as the info upstream suggests.

Corey, Matt, Isaiah, Lauren, Rachel, John and Dave Sanders are representative of the school hierarchy. That is 7 out of 13 which is a majority. In addition they tried to shoot Neil Gardener and DeAngelis.

As for the library being a meeting place for jocks, I refer you to Evan Todd:

"On April 20 Evan was supposed to meet with Ryan Barrett to run during their free time on orders from Coach Lowery. Evan went to the library to find Ryan as he knew Ryan regularly went there during "A" lunch. On entering, he saw a girl he knew there - Sarah Houy - and waved to her. He saw other people he knew there as well: Matt Kechter, Craig Scott, Makai Hall, Dan Steepleton, and Pat Ireland. Eventually he found Ryan at one of the computers and the two of them talked about how they'd both forgotten they were supposed to run during their free period. They decided they would tell the coach they'd done it then would make up the run after school" [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Obviously, athletes routinely congregated in the library.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 15, 2015 12:42 pm

I think both you and Sabratha make good points.

My own gut feeling on this is that they were skeptical about the whole bomb/shooting plot right up until it happened. It was probably something they planned and spent money on as well as using it to fuel their adolescent hate towards the establishment, bitchy students etc. They had beefs with jocks, as well as other parts of the hierarchy. In Tim Kass' book, all of Dylan's friends mention that Eric seemed to have a chip on his shoulder with a lot of students regardless of social clout.

Their targets seem like the same type of random selection that would happen if you picked up a gun and started shooting at people you don't identify with. Once they finally crossed that boundary into actually loading guns and moving toward the hill, their frame of mind collectively changed. One of the first remarks from the killers was, "This is what we've always wanted to do!" That, coupled with the fact that they pretty much kept to their normal routines right up to the night before the shooting tells me that they might have both been regarding NBK as a sort of "dare" between themselves. Once it actually happened, the random circumstances took over. Even if you had a laser accurate shit list, you would most likely chase off most of your targets with the sound of approaching gunfire before you could aim at them. This begs the question; is there a cross reference of Eric's "shit list" and students that were shot at, but managed to escape?

So, I think once their shooting coalesced more, they began to rationalize some of their targets. Given that they were still unprepared to handle the entire situation, they had to choose targets based on accessibility and dislike of the person. I think the victim list is just who was the most visible during the attack, mixed with whoever they might have liked the least for whatever reason.

TL;DR, you are both right to some degree. They had a limited amount of ammo, and they were choosing their targets. To what extent and motive is the question.
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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 15, 2015 12:56 pm

Good post, radaddio --

Once the improvised attack started, I don't think they were systematic about it. I think they were 100% impulsive. However, they did show a target preference when it comes to the up close and personal kills. They showed this preference before and during the attack, pretty much continuously in word and deed. The end result is that a significant number of their limited targets fit the profile they had in mind, despite the mayhem and confusion.

The only thing that I find troubling is that they spared Evan Todd. Does this show that Dylan was having an attack of conscience as Todd seems to suggest? Or is it simply the case that he thought letting Todd live was a worse punishment than death? Or is it the case, as many have suggested, that neither of the boys could kill anyone with whom they had made eye-contact?


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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 15, 2015 5:53 pm

Patti Neilson's comments in this interview also suggest that Eric and Dylan looked at their victims during the shooting.

"They walked around, looking under tables. Saying mean things, etc."

The "mean things" that they said were usually specific to each individual victim (or potential victim). Hence: "nice glasses" to a kid with glasses or "pathetic" to someone who'd been hit or "just some fat fuck" to Evan Todd or "peek a boo" to Cassie who had her hands over her eyes, and so on.



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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 17, 2015 4:41 pm

More evidence that they knew and targeted Isaiah:

"Betty Shoels, the aunt of slain student Isaiah Shoels, said the Trench Coat Mafia harassed Isaiah daily but didn't solely target Isaiah, one of a few black students at Columbine and the only one killed. The Trench Coat Mafia "was a group of kids who harassed kids. They'd go down the halls harassing kids, making racial slurs, not just racial slurs, harassing people they didn't like," Shoels told the commission."

"Only 72 hours before he was killed in the library, Shoels said she was with Isaiah and his parents. Out of the blue, Isaiah asked, " 'What would you do if I was gunned down?' " She said she encouraged Isaiah to stay at Columbine, something she now regrets."


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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 17, 2015 6:13 pm

Gustopoet2 wrote:
More evidence that they knew and targeted Isaiah:

"Betty Shoels, the aunt of slain student Isaiah Shoels, said the Trench Coat Mafia harassed Isaiah daily but didn't solely target Isaiah, one of a few black students at Columbine and the only one killed. The Trench Coat Mafia "was a group of kids who harassed kids. They'd go down the halls harassing kids, making racial slurs, not just racial slurs, harassing people they didn't like," Shoels told the commission."

"Only 72 hours before he was killed in the library, Shoels said she was with Isaiah and his parents. Out of the blue, Isaiah asked, " 'What would you do if I was gunned down?' " She said she encouraged Isaiah to stay at Columbine, something she now regrets."


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I didn't think Eric and Dylan were part of the Trenchcoat Mafia? They aren't in the yearbook photo: [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeFri Jul 17, 2015 6:22 pm

They were peripheral members.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSun Jul 19, 2015 12:39 am

Gustopoet2 wrote:
Corey, Matt, Isaiah, Lauren, Rachel, John and Dave Sanders are representative of the school hierarchy. That is 7 out of 13 which is a majority. In addition they tried to shoot Neil Gardener and DeAngelis.

Plus, let's not forget that _we_ in retrospect have the exact casuality list, but E&D did not.

I am sure that in their heads Pat Ireland was dead, Craig Scott also acted dead (under the same table as Matt and Isaiah), etc.

Eric dismissed some girls as "pathetic" and did not bother killing them, which also supports what you're saying. And Daniel Mauser fought back, so he shouldn't count.


The higher you were on the CHS pecking order, the less likely you were to get spared in the library, all other factors being equal.









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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeSun Jul 19, 2015 1:41 pm

lio45 wrote:
Gustopoet2 wrote:
Corey, Matt, Isaiah, Lauren, Rachel, John and Dave Sanders are representative of the school hierarchy. That is 7 out of 13 which is a majority. In addition they tried to shoot Neil Gardener and DeAngelis.

Plus, let's not forget that _we_ in retrospect have the exact casuality list, but E&D did not.

I am sure that in their heads Pat Ireland was dead, Craig Scott also acted dead (under the same table as Matt and Isaiah), etc.

Eric dismissed some girls as "pathetic" and did not bother killing them, which also supports what you're saying. And Daniel Mauser fought back, so he shouldn't count.


The higher you were on the CHS pecking order, the less likely you were to get spared in the library, all other factors being equal.


Very good points.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeMon Jul 20, 2015 12:56 pm

Gustopoet2 wrote:
Corey, Matt, Isaiah, Lauren, Rachel, John and Dave Sanders are representative of the school hierarchy. That is 7 out of 13 which is a majority. In addition they tried to shoot Neil Gardener and DeAngelis.

I'm sorry, but I need to call you out on this. Isaiah high school hierarchy? His family was hated before the shooting and are still disliked after the shooting (at least according to Kass, but I have no reason to doubt him on that). He even quit the team because people were disrespectful and racist to him.

Rachel and Corey hanged out with people like Mike Vendengia, Brooks or Nick Baumgart - the very same people Dylan hanged out with. If you think Rachel and Corey were tops of the social hierarchy, then you must conclude that so was Dylan. Cause they had the same friends.

I don't really see why John Tomlin or Lauren would be considered part of the social elite either. What makes you think they were?

Last but not least: How does killing Kyle, Kelly or Dan Mauser fit into this? Surely these were people at the bottom of the hierarchy. Same goes for the injured Nolen and Kintgen.

Only person imho that could be seen as a "jock elite" who was a casuality was Matt Kechter. And even that is debatable, cause I don't remember people saying taht Matt was popular, had many friends or even ever had a girlfriend. He was a sports guy tho.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeMon Jul 20, 2015 11:33 pm

Sabratha wrote:
Gustopoet2 wrote:
Corey, Matt, Isaiah, Lauren, Rachel, John and Dave Sanders are representative of the school hierarchy. That is 7 out of 13 which is a majority. In addition they tried to shoot Neil Gardener and DeAngelis.

I'm sorry, but I need to call you out on this. Isaiah high school hierarchy? His family was hated before the shooting and are still disliked after the shooting (at least according to Kass, but I have no reason to doubt him on that). He even quit the team because people were disrespectful and racist to him.

Rachel and Corey hanged out with people like Mike Vendengia, Brooks or Nick Baumgart - the very same people Dylan hanged out with. If you think Rachel and Corey were tops of the social hierarchy, then you must conclude that so was Dylan. Cause they had the same friends.

I don't really see why John Tomlin or Lauren would be considered part of the social elite either. What makes you think they were?

Last but not least: How does killing Kyle, Kelly or Dan Mauser fit into this? Surely these were people at the bottom of the hierarchy. Same goes for the injured Nolen and Kintgen.

Only person imho that could be seen as a "jock elite" who was a casuality was Matt Kechter. And even that is debatable, cause I don't remember people saying taht Matt was popular, had many friends or even ever had a girlfriend. He was a sports guy tho.

Thanks for your thoughts, Sabratha. We simply disagree on this point. I think I have provided ample evidence already, but here is some more:

"Lauren Townsend was a senior and captain of the girls' varsity volleyball team, which her mother, Dawn Anna, coached. She was a member of the National Honor Society and was a candidate for valedictorian of her graduating class."

"John Tomlin ... belonged to a church youth group ... He loved church and Chevrolet trucks."

"Born with a heart defect, his parents said he was a fighter who overcame his disability and went on to play football and wrestle. He had played cornerback the previous year on the football team...Isaiah was a popular boy; Columbine principal Frank DeAngelis said his classmates would compete to work on school projects with him".  

"[Rachel Scott]... played the lead in a student-written school play, "The Smoke in the Room" (co-starring friends Nick Baumgart, Lauren Beachem, and others), and was writing a play for her senior year. She also liked photography and was active in the Celebration Christian Fellowship church."

"Corey DePooter was a former wrestler who loved to hike, golf, hunt, and fish. He loved wrestling, golf and in-line skating"

"William "Dave" Sanders was a computer and business teacher at Columbine for 25 years, and coach of the girls' basketball and softball teams"

Re" Kelly Fleming:'"Her body was found on the floor near that of Lauren Townsend. Kelly's father said: "Here's one of the real leaders of the school, and our Kelly was next to someone like that. I'm sure Lauren took care of Kelly. She wasn't alone."

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This is just barely scratching the surface. I would love to have the time and leisure to sit down and put together a proper article or even just a cohesive post on this very important topic. Unfortunately I am hitting a busy streak @ work and my job is writing so I am a bit winded to address each of your points at the length that the topic deserves.

Both Daniel and John Tomlin confronted or fought back against the boys that is why they were killed. 

Please do keep in mind that I am only suggesting that the boys showed a preference to kill up close those who most closely fit their fairly specific profile of athletes, minorities, and Christians. They did the best they could to indulge their revenge fantasies with the people they had on hand. I'm not suggesting that they did not intend to kill everyone or that they only targeted these types; I am saying they showed a clear preference for those target types as is amply evidenced by the upstream posts and by this cursory examination of the reported evidence.

As I said, I respect your thoughts and look forward to hearing more if you feel compelled to share them. But we seem to just have a fundamental disagreement here and I have studied this a long time. It is virtual impossibility that you (or anyone else) is going to change my mind on this one. I do appreciate the debate, tho.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeTue Jul 21, 2015 4:27 am

Good infgo on Lauren being a part of the in-crowd, I concede on that point entirely.

I disagree on christians. Among the shot and wounded, the evangelical christians were actually underrepresented in comparison wioth the amount of evangelical christians in the generla population of Littleton and CHS. Both Larkin and Krabbe and iirc also Kass point that out. Larkin is relaly good with his stats and numbers.

I also fail to see how Rachel and Corey were part of the social elite. People who had friends amongs the elites did not have friends amongs the outcasts, see Larkin's analysis and interviews. Rachel and Corey were frends with Vendengia, Brooks and Baumgart. Rachel even dated Nick Baumgart. IIRC Verndengia made a statement that Corey was among his closest friends. Hanging out with the outcasts - this alone makes you anathema to the in-crowd in most HS environments, Larking proves it was the same at CHS if not worse.

Again: I think its worth noting that the library shooting started with the killing of Kyle, who obviously was not a jock and not a part of the social elite. I also disagree taht the library shooting targeted sporty girls only - they killed Kelly, but left alone or lightly wounded a number of much more athletic girls.

Lauren Townsend was killed by a shot fired blindly under the table - unlike Cassie, the shooter did not crouch and look her in the eye. I have a hard time to beleive that she was anything more than a person in the wrong time and place. They didn't stop to look at her, I doubt they even knew who they killed.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeTue Jul 21, 2015 10:48 am

Kyle was a special needs student and was identified and killed as such by Dylan due to the grudge Dylan had against special needs kids. Sue Klebold, as I am sure everyone realizes, was a special needs teacher, so I think Dylan had some hostility there... However, this is not the thread for that particular conversation.

As for the rest of your comments, I think the upstream posts have already answered them or they have indicated resources where someone who is interested can get a leg up on researching this question.

We simply disagree on this issue and there's probably not too much more to be gained by us trading posts at this point. I look forward to any comments you might have to offer on the topic but, like I said, I've already put a good deal of study into the question and I'm fairly comfortable with my conclusions.

At some point I will try to write up a cohesive essay on the matter. I have little doubt that even if I succeed in articulating my point and gathering the available evidence and invoking Occam's Razor Smile there will still be a substantial number of people who will cling to the party-line on this topic.

I would add that the 3 biggest myths I see with Columbine are

1) Bullying was not the reason the boys did NBK.

2) The boys did not target specific victims.

3) Dylan was a follower.

In each of these three cases, the underlying motive for the misrepresentation of testimony and evidence is to preserve the class structure and hierarchy that was evident in CHS's culture and to perpetuate these practices into the future with impunity -- that is, without having to reflect on their consequences or accept responsibility for what having a "pecking order" in society or in a high-school does to children.

In short they are myths that have either been consciously perpetuated or simply have grown up organically to protect the rich and/or powerful from their responsibilities and conscience. This is also not the topic of this thread so I'll stop now....

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeTue Jul 21, 2015 10:49 am

Sabratha's post reminds me to add Kyle Velasquez to the list of victims I am sure the boys recognized. I am confident that Dylan knew he was shooting a special needs student and had a personal motive for wanting to do so.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 22, 2015 4:46 am

I again disagree, especially on christians. Eric was a catholic (not practicing too) and Dylan didn't go to church. So they wouldn't know who was an evangelical christian, unless it was someone who they had classes with vide Rachel and Jen.

Thing is, the killed evangelical kids (Rachel Scott being an exception) were underclassmen who Eric and Dylan didn't know personally. Rachel was an exception since Dylan knew her from the drama groups and in general she hanged out with some of Dylan's friends.

Corey being an ex-wrestler didn't matter in CHS, as was friends with outcasts and he quit CHS sports. As a result he was not part of the in-crowd and had big gripes with CHS athletes himself.

As for minorities - yeah they killed Shoels and taunted him. Having said that he wa sthe single black student there, so there's nobody to compare. They didn't kill any of the asian students, despite lightly wounding Park. They could have killed her easily if they took time and effort.

Perhaps it was just racism twoards blacks and not asians, but I doubt it. I think Shoels just stood out and thus drew attention, this attention doomed him.

As for bullying... why didn't they kill actual bullies? Why were the killed kids mostly underclassmen?

Why was Kelly killed? Did Dylan think she was a sepecial needs kid too? I never thought about Dylan specifically targeting special needs kids, but if your theory is true then maybe he thought she was one?

However, keep in mind its Harris who shot the killing shot at Kelly.

Well, just realized: All the girls were killed by Eric, save Lauren. Lauren was killed by Dylan firing blindly under the table, she's simply a random casulaity.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 22, 2015 5:07 am

Sabratha wrote:
I again disagree, especially on christians. Eric was a catholic (not practicing too) and Dylan didn't go to church. So they wouldn't know who was an evangelical christian, unless it was someone who they had classes with vide Rachel and Jen.

Thing is, the killed evangelical kids (Rachel Scott being an exception) were underclassmen who Eric and Dylan didn't know personally. Rachel was an exception since Dylan knew her from the drama groups and in general she hanged out with some of Dylan's friends.

Corey being an ex-wrestler didn't matter in CHS, as was friends with outcasts and he quit CHS sports. As a result he was not part of the in-crowd and had big gripes with CHS athletes himself.

As for minorities - yeah they killed Shoels and taunted him. Having said that he wa sthe single black student there, so there's nobody to compare. They didn't kill any of the asian students, despite lightly wounding Park. They could have killed her easily if they took time and effort.

Perhaps it was just racism twoards blacks and not asians, but I doubt it. I think Shoels just stood out and thus drew attention, this attention doomed him.

As for bullying... why didn't they kill actual bullies? Why were the killed kids mostly underclassmen?

Why was Kelly killed? Did Dylan think she was a sepecial needs kid too? I never thought about Dylan specifically targeting special needs kids, but if your theory is true then maybe he thought she was one?

However, keep in mind its Harris who shot the killing shot at Kelly.

Well, just realized: All the girls were killed by Eric, save Lauren. Lauren was killed by Dylan firing blindly under the table, she's simply a random casulaity.


Again -- I respect your opinion, Sabratha, and you have made some valid points here and I thank you for your insights. But the two of us trading posts is not going to accomplish anything. I disagree with your position and I have stated quite clearly why this is the case. So in regard to your last post, please consider the upstream posts, videos, references, links etc. as my response. If you dig into them I am confident most of your objections and concerns will be answered. If you persist in suggesting that the boys did not state and subsequently demonstrate a preference for killing students who represented the school hierarchy and/or minorities and Christians that is your prerogative but you will never convince me of your position. That argument, which is btw the one perpetuated by the mainstream media, strikes me as being based largely on the "Don't believe your lying eyes" principle.


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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 22, 2015 8:44 am

Gustopoet2 wrote:
So in regard to your last post, please consider the upstream posts, videos, references, links etc. as my response.

I read your posts, but I continue to find your arguments to be lacking. Take Depooter for example - I asked why do you consider him to be a part of the in-crowd and stated my points why he was not (he had gripes with jocks, he left the team, he was friends with outcasts, Vendengia in particular).

You stated that he was an ex-wrestler and that's fair enough, but you have not substantiated your claim that he was a part of the in-crowd and have not adressed my points either.
Its hard to say that he was killed becuase he was a part of the social elite, if you don't offer evidence that he was in fact a part of the in-crowd and back this up with aruments of substance.

Gustopoet2 wrote:
That argument, which is btw the one perpetuated by the mainstream media, strikes me as being based largely on the "Don't believe your lying eyes" principle.
I'm not particularly familiar with this english expression. Google didn;t help much either, can you tlel me what it means in this context?



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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 22, 2015 3:18 pm

Sabratha wrote:
Gustopoet2 wrote:
So in regard to your last post, please consider the upstream posts, videos, references, links etc. as my response.

I read your posts, but I continue to find your arguments to be lacking. Take Depooter for example - I asked why do you consider him to be a part of the in-crowd and stated my points why he was not (he had gripes with jocks, he left the team, he was friends with outcasts, Vendengia in particular).

You stated that he was an ex-wrestler and that's fair enough, but you have not substantiated your claim that he was a part of the in-crowd and have not adressed my points either.
Its hard to say that he was killed becuase he was a part of the social elite, if you don't offer evidence that he was in fact a part of the in-crowd and back this up with aruments of substance.

Gustopoet2 wrote:
That argument, which is btw the one perpetuated by the mainstream media, strikes me as being based largely on the "Don't believe your lying eyes" principle.
I'm not particularly familiar with this english expression. Google didn;t help much either, can you tlel me what it means in this context?




It means: never mind what the evidence says, believe the official interpreters of said evidence.  

For the record, I never claimed that they were killing kids that were in the "in crowd"-- I said that their up-close kills demonstrate that they did the best they could with the people on hand to hit jocks, Christians, and those who represented the school hierarchy. There is a subtle difference between the arguments and I am not sure you are seeing that.

Let me try to address some of your objections.

1) The boys would not have recognized Christians because they did not personally go to church. Yes but being a Christian at Columbine was a badge of honor, a persona that kids used to gain power in the pecking order as was being a jock. The "godly little whores" that Dylan hated so much were no less destructive to his self esteem and did no less to exacerbate his cynicism regarding the hypocrisy of American culture than the "Rocky's" of the school. In Eric and Dylan's minds, the Christians also received preferential treatment from the school admin and teachers.

2) Some of the athletes they shot were ex-athletes and not so popular. Right, so they did the best they could with what they had on hand.

3) They didn't look at the people they shot. I'm sorry but the evidence suggests that they did. Not only did they haze, tease, insult and interrogate the people they shot, they talked about how their faces looked when they knew they were going to be shot. They mocked their fear. They also looked at the bodies and made jokes after killing them. Two more quick things here: someone hiding under a table or desk is not all that hidden. The boys would have known from 4 years of experience how the cliques sorted themselves out around the school, what people sat next to each other etc.

Finally, the boys spent countless hours pouring over their yearbooks, obsessively x-ing out people and plotting, they had shit-lists and they had a profile type for preferred targets. Yes, I know they didn't shoot anyone on those lists specifically, but their improvised attack shows that they certainly did show a profile-target preference.

I appreciate the points you are making. We just disagree. The topic deserves a studied and cohesive essay -- maybe this thread will help provide the foundation for one someday.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 22, 2015 4:16 pm

Gustopoet2 wrote:
3) They didn't look at the people they shot. I'm sorry but the evidence suggests that they did. Not only did they haze, tease, insult and interrogate the people they shot, they talked about how their faces looked when they knew they were going to be shot. They mocked their fear. They also looked at the bodies and made jokes after killing them. Two more quick things here: someone hiding under a table or desk is not all that hidden. The boys would have known from 4 years of experience how the cliques sorted themselves out around the school, what people sat next to each other etc.

Ok, I just want to clarify that I never said they didn't look at any of the people. Cassie, Isaiah - case in point - they did in some cases.

However Lauren in  particular, we know they did not look at her. Dylan killed her with a blind shot. Only then was her dead body shot by stray bullets fired by Eric at someone else. There's certainly no evidence that Lauren was targeted on purpose or that Dylan even noticed who he killed.

The fact taht they were shooting blind under tables is imho good evidence that they didn't care all that much about who gets shot.
Then again John Savage is proof they did care to some extent. Certainly not a consistent behavior by Dylan at all.

Gustopoet2 wrote:
Finally, the boys spent countless hours pouring over their yearbooks, obsessively x-ing out people and plotting, they had shit-lists and they had a profile type for preferred targets.

If I recall correctly, most the people on said lists already graduated in 1998 and were not at CHS anymore.

Knowing this I always thougth of these as "shit lists" rather than "hit lists". These are people they had a particular dislike for, though not necessarily ones they had an active plan to kill.

This brings me to the main conclusion: they were aiming for a mass killing, which by necesseity meant that most killed would be strangers to them. They simply didn't know all the underclassmen who would form the bulk of the dead kileled by the bomb.

What is more - they didn't know most of the underclassmen they killed with guns either.

I can agree that once they were in with guns blazing, they had some preferences. They gave more attention to Shoels because he was black. Dylan it seems had a clear preference for male victims. People like Savage were spared on purpose. Sure.

But I will strongly object to portrayal of columbine as a "surgical revenge strike" on a narrow and selected group of CHS students, cause people may read your argument in such a way.

A revenge surgical strike - that's simply not the case. First and foremost the original plan was to bomb it McVeigh style. Bombs aren't picky, they aren't gonna kill more jocks and in-crowd girls.

Secondly, most of the killed were not at all known to E&D. Only person they knew in person was Rachel and perhaps Shoels. None of the wounded had any close ties to E&D either afaik.

If jocks, evangelicals and pretty girls were the only intended targets, then Kelly would have lived, Nolen, Kyler and Kintgen would never have been targeted, while Lisa Kreutz and Evan Todd would have been killed.

If your theory is true, then you should explain why Nolen, Kintgen and Flemming were shot, and why some otehr people in the library lived.

Killing people you don't personally know - that's a classic spree killing. Not a revenge killing.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 22, 2015 5:16 pm

Dylan shot Kelly because she was with Lauren that is why I even bothered to mention in an upstream post that Kelly's parents were so proud that Kelly had died near "one of the real leaders of the school."

As for the rest of your post, I have already addressed all of your points; you simply are not looking deeply enough into the evidence provided. I do not accept your clinical distinction between "spree shooters" and "revenge shooters" as being applicable to Columbine. I am not saying this distinction does not have some validity - I am saying it is not particularly valid in this case.

I also do not accept your position that Eric and Dylan did not know the people they shot. I have provided ample evidence for my position; in fact, the entirety of my contribution to this thread is evidence of that position.

Likewise, I said in my upstream post that I realized that none of the people on their lists were specifically shot during NBK.

I never called NBK a "surgical strike" nor did I intimate anything of the kind.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 22, 2015 5:31 pm

I have to agree with Sabratha. I see no evidende that any of the victims was personally hand-picked and killed because of what his status in the school was. I think it was more the crucial actions or non-actions the victims took (not hiding, or crawling away from under the tables) - or just terrible luck of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and being shot blindly.

Look how different the profiles of the ten victims in the library were; they were from all ages from 14 to 18, the boys to girls ratio was 7:3, which I don't find eye-catching; there were athletes and "nerds", more popular girls and quieter ones.

I can't believe that "Dylan killed Kyle because he recognized him as a special needs child and that he had some issue about special needs children because of his mother working in that profession". I think the only reason Kyle was shot was because he was the only one in the library not hiding! He was sitting on his computer, headphones on, and still using the computer. He had no idea of what was happening, so when E/D walked through the library doors, he was right in front of them, clearly visible (he was obese, 230 pounds according to his autopsy, and wearing a coat), so them not shooting Kyle would have been more a statement than them shooting him ever was.

And I agree with Sabratha about Isaiah; he was shot, because he drew attention due to his color. In their moment of anger and hatred they wanted to taunt someone who was different. It is possible they remembered seeing him in school, because he was a senior and besides his heritage he was also really small - so he really was different. Some people say E/D said "there's that little nigger". I'm not sure they even knew his name or knew that he was an athlete.

Mostly, they shot blindly, and did Eric even look at Cassie despite the infamous "peek-a-boo" comment? If I remember correctly, the one who sat under the table with Cassie said they (E and C) never made eye-contact. So did Eric just look at Cassie (who had hands on her ears and eyes closed) - thus not so recognizable?

And did Eric recognize Rachel when she shot her from the distance? And Dave Sanders was shot in the back from a distance when he was running.

We have to remember that E/D were in their adrenaline rush hour. It's easy to go slowly through the details now - in hindsight - but when it really happened, it happened so fast, so I don't believe they were even able to concentrate so much on who they shot at. John Savage was really lucky that they took the time to ask who was under there (this was near the end of the library massacre, so their rush was coming to an end).

And I think what makes Columbine even bigger is the fact that the victims were so different from each other. In principle, everyone was a target - no matter who they were, also after the failed bombing. (Though, besides John Savage, I think they wouldn't have shot Nate Dykeman either, for example, if they would have ran into him.)

Ps. I wonder how much we would be speculating today if Craig Scott would have been killed - so that both Rachel and Craig would have died. It was close, really.


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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 22, 2015 5:37 pm

What I always come back to is the fact that, if the bombs had gone off, everyone in the cafeteria would have died - the jocks, yes, but also the lowest of the low.

And they were going to mow down anyone they saw running out of the school.

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PostSubject: Re: Did They Know Who They Killed   Did They Know Who They Killed Icon_minitimeWed Jul 22, 2015 6:00 pm

LPorter101 wrote:
What I always come back to is the fact that, if the bombs had gone off, everyone in the cafeteria would have died - the jocks, yes, but also the lowest of the low.

And they were going to mow down anyone they saw running out of the school.

I never disputed this. In my upstream posts I've acknowledged that they wanted to kill everyone and that they shot indiscriminately at times. What I am saying is: during the improvised attack there is a reason that so many of the library victims (and some others) represented their stated target types. The boys had preferred targets and in my opinion these were: jocks, Christians, minorities, and cops. I think they demonstrated this preference before and during the attack. I also think there is ample evidence that they both looked at the people they shot in the library and evaluated whether or not to kill them.

As for the other posters who have raised valid objections. Thank you for you opinions they are much appreciated and offer a lot of food for thought.

Let's just make a quick-reference list here:

1. Lauren Townsend was a senior and captain of the girls' varsity volleyball team, which her mother, Dawn Anna, coached. She was a member of the National Honor Society and was a candidate for valedictorian of her graduating class."  Athelete; School Leader; Valedictorian to be.

2. John Tomlin ... belonged to a church youth group ... He loved church and Chevrolet trucks.  Christian.

3. Isiah Shoals. "Born with a heart defect, his parents said he was a fighter who overcame his disability and went on to play football and wrestle. He had played cornerback the previous year on the football team...Isaiah was a popular boy; Columbine principal Frank DeAngelis said his classmates would compete to work on school projects with him".  Athelete; minority.

4. Rachel Scott... played the lead in a student-written school play, "The Smoke in the Room" (co-starring friends Nick Baumgart, Lauren Beachem, and others), and was writing a play for her senior year. She also liked photography and was active in the Celebration Christian Fellowship church." High-Profile Christian.

5. Corey DePooter was a former wrestler who loved to hike, golf, hunt, and fish. He loved wrestling, golf and in-line skating" Athlete.

6. William "Dave Sanders was a computer and business teacher at Columbine for 25 years, and coach of the girls' basketball and softball teams" Coach; School Authority figure.

7. Kelly Fleming:Her body was found on the floor near that of Lauren Townsend. Kelly's father said: "Here's one of the real leaders of the  school, and our Kelly was next to someone like that. I'm sure Lauren took care of Kelly. She wasn't alone.

That is seven who fit the profile that the boys themselves repeated again and again or were killed due to being in close proximity to those who fit the profile. The whole "THOSE BITCHES ARE STILL OVER THERE!" shout by Klebold, I think, was directed at Lauren and her friends.

Now we also have:

Daniel Mauser: Star Wars nerd. Eric said he hated Star Wars fans. But I'll let that one go. He was shot for fighting back.

Kyle Velasquez: Dylan shot him at point blank range so he saw who it was. He'd already threatened to kill another special needs kid. His mother was a special needs kids teacher who did not see her own son's dissolution into suicide and mass murder. What more evidence do you need?  scratch

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