Did They Know Who They Killed

Additionally we have:

Neil Gardner -- they shot at -- breaking off the general attack against non target types to do so.

Frank DeAngelis -- says he was shot at -- the school principle's gonna be recognized.

Please keep in mind the boys were obsessed with CHS and they knew the usual places that people went, etc where they would be at certain times. They hacked the computers, got locker codes, went on rebel missions against specific people in school, etc.  They knew the school population very well and the administration, too.

Lastly, the bomb plot was specifically engineered to do maximum damage to the jocks. The collapsing library would have also brought down members of the school admin like Peggy Dodd, for example. There was a great deal of thought put into NBK.

FBI Crime Scene Diagram Upper Part of School:
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Crime Scene Diagram Inside Columbine Library:
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These are where the casings landed from Dylan's TEC inside the Library:

TEC-9 held in Dylan's left hand, ejection port on right side of gun

Library - East Side:

600 - Inside Front Door Entrance
602 - Front Display Case
603 - West of Magnetometer

608 - Table 1
624 - Table 1
688 - Table 1

622 - Table 3
623 - Table 3
628 - Table 3

625 - Book Row 3
627 - Book Row 2
641 - Between Book Row 2 & 3

647 - Near South Wall
649 - Near South Wall
666 - South Wall
742 - Near South Wall
789 - Corner South East Wall

Library - West Side:

961 - Between Book Row 7 & Window 10
974 - Table 19



These are where the shell casings landed from Eric's Shotgun inside the Library:

Shotgun held in right handed stance, ejection port on right side of gun

Library - East Side:

607 - Book Row 3
626 - Book Row 3

659 - Book Row 2

638 - Table 4
639 - Table 4

642 - Table 6

658 - Table 5

679 - Table 7

720 - Corner Front Entrance

Library - West Side:

905 - Behind Copier of Front Desk

910 - Under Microfiche North East Corner by North Computer Table

915 - North Computer Table

925 - South Computer Table
930 - South Computer Table

916 - Window 3

926 - Table 17

976 - Between Table 18 & 19

971 - Table 20
972 - Table 20
973 - Table 20


These are where the casings landed from Eric's Carbine inside the Library:

Carbine held in right handed stance, ejection port on right side of gun

Library - East Side:

671 - Between Table 9 & 11
672 - Between Table 9 & 11

675 - Table 14

Library - West Side:

911 - Between Window 1 & 2
917 - Window 3

952 - Between Book Row 5 & 6  
953 - Between Book Row 5 & 6  
954 - Between Book Row 5 & 6  
955 - Between Book Row 5 & 6  

956 - Book Row 6  
957 - Book Row 6  
958 - Book Row 6  
1026 - Book Row 6
1029 - Book Row 6

965 - Between Book Row 6 & 7, South of Table 15
966 - Between Book Row 6 & 7, South of Table 15  
967 - Between Book Row 6 & 7, South of Table 15

968 - Between Book Row 6 & 7, North of Eric's Body  
969 - Between Book Row 6 & 7, North of Eric's Body
1031 - Between Book Row 6 & 7, between Eric/Dylan's Bodies
1066 - Green Ammo Pouch on Eric's Body
1105 - Under Eric's Pants

I wanted to add the following excerpt from No Easy Answers as additional background for my claims regarding the Christian "bullying" that went on at CHS. The last quote does not directly address the Christian angle but it demonstrates that the school admin. and teachers were compliant in the overall bullying atmosphere.  

Please keep in mind, Brooks Brown does NOT share my belief that the boys targeted Christians, minorities, or jocks during NBK. I'm well aware that he and I differ on this point but he provides excellent information on the Christian aspect of the school hierarchy.

"I never made it a secret in high school that I wasn't a religious person, and devout Christians used to come after me and tell me I was going to Hell. They would use quotes from the Bible to throw insults at me. I'd seen them try to force their beliefs on other students, guilting them into it, pressuring them to join up. They didn't want to hear what you thought about God, or the world. All they wanted to hear was "Jesus Christ is my Savior" -- and if we didn't agree, we weren't worth associating with." (p. 148)  

"I'm not claiming that Eric and Dylan didn't have a certain hatred for religion. They did. In fact, we had many discussions about how difficult it could be for a non-Christian at Columbine. Many Littleton residents equate Christianity with being a good person, and they look down on those who are not members of the church. It was hard for Eric and Dylan to watch self-proclaimed "Christians" who pushed other kids around, shoved them into lockers and call them faggots, then got up later and talked about how "important" their faith was. I know for a fact that things like that made Eric and Dylan angry." (p. 200)  

"The problem was that the bullies were popular with the administration. Meanwhile we were the 'trouble kids," because we didn't seem to fit in with the grand order of things. Kids like us, who dressed a little differently and were into different things, made teachers nervous. They weren't interested in reaching out to us. They wanted to keep us at arm's length, and if they had the chance to take us down, they would." (p. 50)    

Quotes from No Easy Answers by Brooks Brown and Rob Merritt. (Italics mine).


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Steve Curnow: Steve Curnow dreamed of being a Navy top gun pilot and was very close with his mom Susan and father Robert (Bob). He loved soccer and worked part-time as a referee and his dad Bob coached the soccer team (Blue Devils of the Colorado Rush) he played on. Steve liked the color green, because it was the color of the field. His favorite classes were Spanish, technology, and gym because he got to play sports. Remembered as a huge fan, he watched the Star Wars movies so many times he could recite the dialogue along with the actors"

Brian Anderson: When investigators asked Brian why he thought Eric shot at him, Brian told them "because I was wearing a white hat" and explained that many of the school's athletes wore white hats to school.

Richard Castaldo: "in an exclusive set of interviews with this reporter and his assistant, Castaldo has revealed his secret: After Dylan Klebold shot him, Castaldo now maintains, Eric Harris pointed his rifle at Castaldo and asked if he believed in God.

As frightened as he felt, Castaldo said he responded with candor.

“I answered honestly,” Castaldo says. “I told him ‘no’. I told him ‘no,’ and I ‘m alive because of it.”

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Valeen Schnurr: "She found herself sitting next to Lauren ... Attracted by Val's cries, the shooters both came over to where she was. One of the shooters, who was reloading his weapon at the time, then asked her if she believed in God. She floundered in her answer, saying no at first and then yes, trying to get the answer 'right'. He asked her 'Why?' and she said it was because it was what her family believed.

Lisa Kreutz: was also sitting near Lauren.

Jeanna Park: Ditto.

Again, this is not an exhaustive examination of the evidence. It does show that the boys were, at times, discriminate in who they targeted and that the criteria I listed upstream which was their avowed target criteria was at play during NBK.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Dylan shot Kelly because she was with Lauren that is why I even bothered to mention in an upstream post that Kelly's parents were so proud that Kelly had died near "one of the real leaders of the school."

Wrong. Eric killed her.

And Dylan killed Lauren by blindly shooting under the table, so Eric wouldn't have been aware who was next to Kelly.

I think probably Kelly freaked out when she saw people dying near her and thus drew attention to herself and Eric shot her. Its only my speculation, but I think that's plausible given the circumstances.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Richard Castaldo: "in an exclusive set of interviews with this reporter and his assistant, Castaldo has revealed his secret: After Dylan Klebold shot him, Castaldo now maintains, Eric Harris pointed his rifle at Castaldo and asked if he believed in God.

Well, this was discussed in another thread about Rich and Rachel being asked the god question. I personally find this to be dubious and highly unlikely. Rich Castaldo changed his version a few times too. Hate to pick on a victim here, but it needs to be said that he's not the most reliable witness out there.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

As for the rest of your post, I have already addressed all of your points; you simply are not looking deeply enough into the evidence provided.

I must disagree. I did look, I just do not find your arguments to ring true.

I get your point about christians and athletes. My reponse is the following:
1) The vast majority of CHS students were active christians, with many being evangelical born-again christians. Evangelical christians were actually underrepresented amongst the victims in comparison to their proportion of CHS student body. The fact that many of the killed were christians doesn't prove much, since a randomly picked CHS group would also contain a christian majority by simple statistical chances.

2) People who were not active christians were shot too (Castaldo for example).

3) Did E&D really know which one of these undercleassmen was a christian? Or an athlete?
I know for certian I knew little to nothign about 99% of underclassmen at my HS when I was on my 4th HS year.

E&D didn't have classess with most of them (Save iirc Dylan who had some class with Lauren during their freshmen year). E&D didn't go to church and weren't fans of HS sports, so they would know less about this than even many other CHS students knew. Dylan askign Evan "are you a jock?" is best proof that they didn't know almost anythign about these underclassmen

4) If E&D targeted jocks and popular kids, then killing Kely because she was sitting next to some popular girls makes very little sense. Why not kill the popular girls next to her instead? Why not kill Lisa Kreutz instead of Kelly? (sorry for being blunt).

5) If you plan to kill a specific, narrow group of people, why plan to make a bombing in the first place?

Sab said: "Wrong. Eric killed her."

***

"At one point Dylan Klebold fired under the table, injuring Val and Lisa. He fired his gun again, killing Lauren. Both gunmen reloaded their weapons and taunted Val, asking her if she believed in God. The shooters then moved away from Kelly's table, moving to another table where they shot Nicole Nowlen and killed John Tomlin before coming back to the girls's table. Coming up from behind, he shot Kelly in the back with his sawed-off shotgun."

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People who were not active christians were shot too (Castaldo for example).

***

That's why I just mentioned that he said they let him live because he wasn't a Christian.

***

If you plan to kill a specific, narrow group of people, why plan to make a bombing in the first place?

***

Obviously, I am talking about the choices they made during the improvised attack after the bombs failed -- I have said this over and over again. Please read the thread and associated evidence carefully.

Conversely, as I have asked you many times and never received a viable answer: why would the boys have asked anyone at any time during the attack to identify themselves or interrogated them in any way if they didn't have any sort of target preference?

"E&D didn't have classess with most of them (Save iirc Dylan who had some class with Lauren during their freshmen year). E&D didn't go to church and weren't fans of HS sports, so they would know less about this than even many other CHS students knew. Dylan asking Evan "are you a jock?" is best proof that they didn't know almost anything about these underclassmen"

Please see the upstream posts. I have addressed each of your points -- most of them repeatedly. I do not have a clear-cut answer on Evan Todd for you. I do think, however, that whatever happened between Dylan and Evan Todd is a key to understanding Dylan's mental state at that particular moment. That he spared Todd and seemed to not recognize him is a valid point but so is the fact that he said "Are you a jock -- we don't like jocks." I would also point out that Dylan "ripped the library [chair] out, leaned in close" and examined Todd's face. He then said "Let me get a good look at you." This demonstrates that they were looking at and evaluating their victims.

It is certainly something to ponder and I will continue to do so as I flesh out the remainder of my argument. There is a lot of evidence left to cite, but it is a chore typing it all up sometimes.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Sab said: "Wrong. Eric killed her."

***

"At one point Dylan Klebold fired under the table, injuring Val and Lisa. He fired his gun again, killing Lauren. Both gunmen reloaded their weapons and taunted Val, asking her if she believed in God. The shooters then moved away from Kelly's table, moving to another table where they shot Nicole Nowlen and killed John Tomlin before coming back to the girls's table. Coming up from behind, he shot Kelly in the back with his sawed-off shotgun."

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Well, official forensic police documents disagree.
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Its from the VictimsList.pdf document that was in the additionally released documents (togeather with FBI, evidence and CBI documents). The page name is JC-001-011868


I'm not saying I'm certain, but I'd put more truth in the forensic document over acolumbinesite.

Quote :

Conversely, as I have asked you many times and never received a viable answer: why would the boys have asked anyone at any time during the attack to identify themselves or interrogated them in any way if they didn't have any sort of target preference?

I think its because Dylan knew John personally from class (unlike the rest of the victims). He said: "Identify yourtself!" because saying: "Are you like that guy from class XYZ?" would sound silly under the circumstances. The military term "Identify yourself!" is just him trying to sound tough.

On Richard - depends if you beleive his version abotu getting shot and falling on his back, never being talked to and shot again. OR do you believe his version about being shot at and then Eric walking up to him asking the god question.
Richard cannot be corrent both times, his testimony is incoherent. My own best best is taht he and Rachel were shot from a distance and never talked to.
This is coherent with the other vevents (Dan's group beign shot at, kids on the field shot at, weapons being reloaded - there's just too much going on in such a short time for Eric to go up to Rachel, ask squestions, then go back to his original position).

I can agree that they had some preferences once the finger-on-trigger moment arrived. John Savage and Shoels are probably good examples. I'm also starting tot hink that Dylan had a preference for killing males (thanks for the discussuon btw, this made me look at it and see that Dylan barely ever shot at girls).

I'd disagree about the vast majority of other victims beign targets of preference. I fail to see any evidence that they knew these underclassmen, that they knew who in particular was an evangelical christian, who was an outcast and who was a jock. I'm pretty convinced that to E&D this were mostly just "some random kids". And they were legit targets as logn as they were "some random kids". Onc ethey found people who they knew, they let said person live. I think That's why Jon was let go and maybe why Amanda was not shot at. Rachel is teh question mark here. I think the fact taht she cut her hair short just recently and taht it was Eric (not Dylan who knew her) who shot her might be an explanation.

The question of who shot Kelly is interesting but it doesn't have much to do with the question of whether or not they were targeting specific types. No matter who shot Kelly, she was in proximity to the "popular" school-leader, valedictorian-to-be when she was shot.  

We do simply disagree, as I have been saying all along; I appreciate your perspective and robust debate, but I don't think it matches the evidence on hand.

By my count a  majority of those who were killed and a significant number of those who were shot at fit the boys' stated target type.

I am going to take Richard Castaldo's word over your opinion, sorry. Same goes for the stated ambitions of the boys themselves as well as hard evidence like: the body-count, witness testimony, the 911 call, victim testimony, and virtually every public statement or anecdotal reporting of the boys' statements regarding the reason for the attack.

They did not only "evaluate" John and Amanda as to their relative target-value. If you look closely at the evidence you will see that they evaluated almost everyone they shot at (or didn't shoot at), at least when there was an opportunity to do so.

Again, the fact that they asked anyone at all to identify themselves or that they made a physical examination (even cursory) of the victims demonstrates they they had preferences. You just can't seem to get this through your head. You see "random kids" and I see "Doom target-types." Perhaps if we assigned a numerical valuation to the victims based on their status as athletes, Christians, or school authority figures and gave the boys a score for NBK my point would be a bit clearer for you. First off, I'll give them bonus points for Lauren, Isaiah, Rachel and Matt. Then Dave Sanders, who btw, was a hall monitor and favored athletes. And so on, ad nauseam.

I am repeating the victim list because I think it's relevant here:  

1. Lauren Townsend -- was a senior and captain of the girls' varsity volleyball team/ member of the National Honor Society/candidate for valedictorian of her graduating class."

2. John Tomlin ... belonged to a church youth group ... He loved church and Chevrolet trucks.  Christian.

3. Isiah Shoals. He had played cornerback the previous year on the football team...Isaiah was a popular boy; Columbine principal Frank DeAngelis said his classmates would compete to work on school projects with him".  Athelete; minority.

4. Rachel Scott... active in the Celebration Christian Fellowship church." High-Profile Christian.

5. Corey DePooter was a former wrestler who loved to hike, golf, hunt, and fish. He loved wrestling, golf and in-line skating" Athlete.

6. William "Dave Sanders was a computer and business teacher at Columbine for 25 years, and coach of the girls' basketball and softball teams" Coach; School Authority figure.

7. Kelly Fleming:Her body was found on the floor near that of Lauren Townsend. Kelly's father said: "Here's one of the real leaders of the  school, and our Kelly was next to someone like that. I'm sure Lauren took care of Kelly. She wasn't alone.

8. Cassie Bernall -- Vocal, born-again Christian.

9. Steve Curnow: Steve Curnow dreamed of being a Navy top gun pilot and was very close with his mom Susan and father Robert (Bob). He loved soccer and worked part-time as a referee and his dad Bob coached the soccer team (Blue Devils of the Colorado Rush) he played on. Steve liked the color green, because it was the color of the field. His favorite classes were Spanish, technology, and gym because he got to play sports. Remembered as a huge fan, he watched the Star Wars movies so many times he could recite the dialogue along with the actors"

10. Brian Anderson: When investigators asked Brian why he thought Eric shot at him, Brian told them "because I was wearing a white hat" and explained that many of the school's athletes wore white hats to school.

11. Richard Castaldo: "in an exclusive set of interviews with this reporter and his assistant, Castaldo has revealed his secret: After Dylan Klebold shot him, Castaldo now maintains, Eric Harris pointed his rifle at Castaldo and asked if he believed in God.

As frightened as he felt, Castaldo said he responded with candor.

“I answered honestly,” Castaldo says. “I told him ‘no’. I told him ‘no,’ and I ‘m alive because of it.”

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12. Valeen Schnurr: "She found herself sitting next to Lauren ... Attracted by Val's cries, the shooters both came over to where she was. One of the shooters, who was reloading his weapon at the time, then asked her if she believed in God. She floundered in her answer, saying no at first and then yes, trying to get the answer 'right'. He asked her 'Why?' and she said it was because it was what her family believed.

13. Lisa Kreutz: was also sitting near Lauren.

14. Jeanna Park: Ditto.

15.Kyle Velasquez: Dylan shot him at point blank range so he saw who it was. He'd already threatened to kill another special needs kid. His mother was a special needs kids teacher who did not see her own son's dissolution into suicide and mass murder.

16. Neil Gardner: Cop.

17. Frank DeAngelis: School Principle -- claims he was shot at.

So either the boys were showing preference for target types or they just got really lucky through blind shooting and almost everyone they hit fell into their stated target type. Since all through the attack they were saying they wanted to kill Christians, cops, jocks, and bitches and then interrogating people to find out if they indeed fell into one of the target types,  I am going to take them at their word.

Finally, the bombs were placed under the "jock" table. So even if they were going to kill everyone, they wanted to kill athletes the most. This did not change during the improvised attack. They did the best they could with what they had on hand.

I don't think that the people they killed were people that they had specifically wanted/planned to kill before the massacre if they had known that they were going to kill so few compared to their initial estimates with bombs. Also, I saw mentioned above that E&D had 'shit lists', does anyone have a link to/copy of these as I have not seen them before?

Bu they obviously knew who they were killing some of the time, (nice glasses comment, racist comments, Kyle wasn't even hiding etc). I don't think that Dylan was specifically targeting Kyle because of his mum, I just think that he was an easy target, although if Dylan was making a decision whether or not to kill him once he had seen him, this may have been a factor in the decision.

One of the things that I do find quite strange (and frustrating) about the shooting is that they did not even target those that had angered them or given them trouble. To me, this renders the shooting kind of pointless in a way. I find Daniel's death to be especially upsetting - more so after seeing his dad speak about what a great son he was in documentaries. He just seemed so eager to be himself and have fun, he wasn't caught up in the whole fake, jock culture - he wasn't even in their year for gods sake! He had never done one single thing to negatively impact the lives of Eric or Dylan, and yet they took his away from him. That makes them the bullies, they are just as bad as the bullies and jocks they had once hated.

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Kyle was hiding under this desk. Dylan shot him at point blank range. Dylan had previously threatened to kill another special needs student. These kinds of students are highly visible in any school; everyone knows who they are. Also, they are apt to follow routines. Kyle was probably in the library a lot -- so was Dylan. I'm pretty sure Dylan could've recognized him from a distance.

I never said I thought they targeted people on their lists during the attack; I have been saying they did the best they could to get preferred target types given what they had to work with at the time.

Here's a link to the shit-lists:

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Please remember that Dylan and Eric spent a lot of time in the library over the four year span that they attended CHS. They were extremely familiar with who went there and how the various cliques separated just as in the cafeteria/commons. That is why they planted the bombs to hit the jock-table and the library in the first place. The vast majority of the people they wanted to kill congregated in these two places. Now please pay attention to my next statement: it is because of the cliques and pecking order that were symbolized by the  "tables" of the cafeteria and library that they went on the rampage in the first place.

This is why Eric "toasts" Dylan after they successfully clear out the commons. This is why Dylan smashes a chair on the computer as they leave the library. They were tearing down totems, not people. When they saw a real person they couldn't shoot; when they saw a school totem, whether living or inanimate, they destroyed or attempted to destroy it with great determination and gusto.

eli27 wrote:

I don't think that the people they killed were people that they had specifically wanted/planned to kill before the massacre if they had known that they were going to kill so few compared to their initial estimates with bombs. Also, I saw mentioned above that E&D had 'shit lists', does anyone have a link to/copy of these as I have not seen them before?

Bu they obviously knew who they were killing some of the time, (nice glasses comment, racist comments, Kyle wasn't even hiding etc). I don't think that Dylan was specifically targeting Kyle because of his mum, I just think that he was an easy target, although if Dylan was making a decision whether or not to kill him once he had seen him, this may have been a factor in the decision.

One of the things that I do find quite strange (and frustrating) about the shooting is that they did not even target those that had angered them or given them trouble. To me, this renders the shooting kind of pointless in a way. I find Daniel's death to be especially upsetting - more so after seeing his dad speak about what a great son he was in documentaries. He just seemed so eager to be himself and have fun, he wasn't caught up in the whole fake, jock culture - he wasn't even in their year for gods sake! He had never done one single thing to negatively impact the lives of Eric or Dylan, and yet they took his away from him. That makes them the bullies, they are just as bad as the bullies and jocks they had once hated.

Daniel tried to fight back. They would not have spared anyone who made a move to take them down because that was simply not an option.

They did the best they could under the circumstances to target "those who angered them or gave them trouble;" I think that is the whole point I'm trying to make here. It's not easy to see at first glance but if you reflect on the evidence you'll see they did discriminate regarding who they killed. If you want to get morbid and cynical about it they did take down several key people in regard to the bullying aspect, but you have to widen the definition of bullying to go beyond just mere physical violence and include snobbery, elitism, and proselytizing favoritism. The bullying at CHS was systemic, that is the key here. As it is systemic in our culture. They did the best they could to take down as many totems of the sick system as possible. They got several "jocks", several "snobby Christians," the valedictorian-to-be, and one of the school's most beloved teachers/coaches. They also tried to kill the school cop and the school principle.

They had crappy weapons and they were improvising the shooting attack. Given these factors, their accuracy for finding and hitting totem target types was pretty good, particularly if you factor in the property damage. I'm not trying to be facetious here either; I think the boys drew little or no distinction between living school totems and inanimate school totems. In fathoming their motives I don't think we should draw sharp distinctions either.

The vast majority of the damage the boys inflicted on that day was directly tied to the symbols of CHS's bullying culture and hierarchy.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

I am going to take Richard Castaldo's word over your opinion, sorry.

You are aware that in his testimony to the Police, Richard said he was shot, fell on his back and that the shooters never approached him or asked him any question? That's in the 11k, pages 000194 - 000197.

So yeah, if you want to take his word you need to remember what he told the police. Not cherrypick one of his statements and ignore the others.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

They did not only "evaluate" John and Amanda as to their relative target-value. If you look closely at the evidence you will see that they evaluated almost everyone they shot at (or didn't shoot at), at least when there was an opportunity to do so.

What makes you think they evaluated other people? Dylan shot blindly under the table where Lauren was, so clearly he did not "evaluate" who he's shooting at. Eric shot most people without asking them anything. In fact the people he asked any questions that we know of (Val, Bree) both lived.

Only person "evaluated" was Evan Todd, by being asked if he's a jock. Seeing the result, his response didn't seem to matter much either way.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Again, the fact that they asked anyone at all to identify themselves or that they made a physical examination (even cursory) of the victims demonstrates they they had preferences.

Well, asking John to "identify himself" (aka: "Are you that guy from XYZ class?") does not demoinstrate that they had any preferences. All it demonstrates is that Dylan had some rather hazy recollection of John from class and in the end spared John simply because he wasn't a complete stranger. That's all.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

You just can't seem to get this through your head.

Becuase its just false assumptions.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Perhaps if we assigned a numerical valuation to the victims based on their status as athletes, Christians, or school authority figures and gave the boys a score for NBK my point would be a bit clearer for you. First off, I'll give them bonus points for Lauren, Isaiah, Rachel and Matt. Then Dave Sanders, who btw, was a hall monitor and favored athletes. And so on, ad nauseam.

Sanders was shot because he had the misfortune of running into the shooters in an otherwise empty hall, he was the lone target in taht moment and was shot as a result.
Lauren was killed by a blind shot. There's no indication they knew Matt or anything about him. Isaiah drew attention simply by the fact that he was the only black kid in the room. They didn't know these kids, so they wouldn't have the first idea who is an active christian and who is not.

You are grasping at straws here.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

No matter who shot Kelly, she was in proximity to the "popular" school-leader, valedictorian-to-be when she was shot.

First of all its highly unlikely that they even realized that the short girl was Lauren the valedictorian, as it was a blind shot. Second, the notion that people somehow "gianed target value" simply by their physical proximity to Lauren is dubious to say the least. I can't imagine Eric saying: "Oh we are gonna shoot the kids sitting next to jocks and valedictorians"

Sabratha -- I have already answered each of your objections extensively; I encourage you to read the upstream posts.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Sabratha -- I have already answered each of your objections extensively; I encourage to read the upstream posts.

Yes, but your arguments make no sense.

You state that they killed Lauren because of her status, but she was killed by a shot fired blindly under the table - Dylan didn't even know who was shot at the time.

You cherrypick Castaldo's statements, ignoring the ones he made to the police shortly after the whole event.

You state that Kelly was killed because somehow sitting close to Lauren mattered greatly to E&D, which fails to make sense, especially since they probably didn't know it was Laurren who was shot.

You said that Kechter and Depooter were shot because they had sports careers. But you don't provide any evidence to show that E&D were aware of this. They never had classess with Depooter or Kechter, both were younger kids. Lower classmen that E&D knew nothing about.

E&D didn't know Cassie Bernal at all, we have no evidence that they knew she was an evangelical christian.


You are assuming that E&D knew these kids, their religion and their hobbies. But they did not. These were stangers, underclassmen that they never had classess with or hanged out with.

"Sanders was shot because he had the misfortune of running into the shooters in an otherwise empty hall, he was the lone target in taht moment and was shot as a result.
Lauren was killed by a blind shot. There's no indication they knew Matt or anything about him. Isaiah drew attention simply by the fact that he was the only black kid in the room. They didn't know these kids, so they wouldn't have the first idea who is an active christian and who is not.

You are grasping at straws here.'

Quite to the contrary. Sanders was a well-known and highly "beloved" teacher who was also a coach and therefore fulfills the target criteria. Your assumptions about Matt and Isaiah are narrative in nature, and not based in fact. For one thing John Savage reported that they spotted Isaiah and said "There's that little nigger." This means they knew very well who they were shooting. They would not have called him by name because of their racist bravado.

You have got to be kidding to suggest that they would not know the members of the CHS football team, whether ex-members, underclassmen or not. You are, frankly, missing the whole point of NBK and the evidence is not at all in your favor. CHS was obsessed with sports and particularity football-players and wrestlers. They would have been like celebrities on the CHS campus.

As for the rest of your objections; as far as I can tell, I've already addressed them, often repeatedly, while you still have not answered my original question.

If they did not have target preferences why would they ask anyone to identify themselves? Why did they ask so many people if they believed in God? Why did they spare Richard when he said "no"?

And since you have decided to make a personal comment, let me respond in kind: it is you who are grasping, Sabratha, and it is a grasping for the comfort of the status-quo and b.s. forwarded by the media and establishment.

Meanwhile, Occam's Razor just keeps slashing through the haze.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

They had crappy weapons and they were improvising the shooting attack. Given these factors, their accuracy for finding and hitting totem target types was pretty good, particularly if you factor in the property damage.

Actually, they did a horrible job if targeting the school elites wa stehir goal. The ebst way to kill school elites once the bombs failed would be to go inside teh cafeteria with weapons hidden under their coats, pull the guns at the jocks sitting at their table and wiping them ount. Only then proceedign to kill other people.

But nope, that's not what occured. Sure, they disliked jocks more than other types of students. But this didn't matter enough for them to modify their plan or tailor it to make sure the jocks die. That was not a revenge shooting.

"Yes, but your arguments make no sense.

You state that they killed Lauren because of her status, but she was killed by a shot fired blindly under the table - Dylan didn't even know who was shot at the time."

***

So you say... I maintain he did know who she was. "THOSE BITCHES ARE STILL RIGHT OVER THERE!" Please keep in mind that the hierarchy at CHS was like a celebrity culture and certain tables and spaces were totem spaces...

***

"You cherrypick Castaldo's statements, ignoring the ones he made to the police shortly after the whole event."

***

No, I take him at his world that he lied the first time.

***

"You state that Kelly was killed because somehow sitting close to Lauren mattered greatly to E&D, which fails to make sense, especially since they probably didn't know it was Laurren who was shot."

***

She was hanging around with the "A" library crowd so she got shot.

***

"You said that Kechter and Depooter were shot because they had sports careers. But you don't provide any evidence to show that E&D were aware of this. They never had classess with Depooter or Kechter, both were younger kids. Lower classmen that E&D knew nothing about."

***

This is just evidence that you don't have a very good understanding of American culture or American High-Schools. Particularly Columbine. The athletes (and Christians) made noise, Sabratha, everyone knew who they were.

***

"E&D didn't know Cassie Bernal at all, we have no evidence that they knew she was an evangelical christian."

***

Really? She was pretty vocal about it.



***

You are assuming that E&D knew these kids, their religion and their hobbies. But they did not. These were stangers, underclassmen that they never had classess with or hanged out with.[/quote]

***

Please see the upstream posts. You are simply not understanding CHS at all. I will offer you this bit tho: Eric and Dylan hacked the school computers to get everyone's locker #'s. They kept careful tabs on the school population and the hierarchy; they did "Rebel Missions" against people who made them mad. They did these missions all the time, multiple missions per night on some occasions. They also had dust-ups with underclassmen (see Dan lab incident) and there are probably many more that just never made it to the light of day. I never said they KNEW them; I said they recognized them as fitting the target-profile type and...they do.

Obviously, you do not have to "hang out" with someone to know who they are when you share the same high school.

"Actually, they did a horrible job if targeting the school elites wa stehir goal. The ebst way to kill school elites once the bombs failed would be to go inside teh cafeteria with weapons hidden under their coats, pull the guns at the jocks sitting at their table and wiping them ount. Only then proceedign to kill other people.

But nope, that's not what occured. Sure, they disliked jocks more than other types of students. But this didn't matter enough for them to modify their plan or tailor it to make sure the jocks die. That was not a revenge shooting."

This is just getting silly now. They planted the bomb under the jocks' table, Sabratha. They still believed up to about 5 mins before they died that the bomb might go off. They killed on impulse in the library for fun fully expecting the bombs to go off. The fun they sought was based at least partially on finding students who most fit their preferred target type. They impulse killed a bunch of Christians and jocks, plus some people who mixed up at the same tables and two unfortunate people who tried to fight back. Your clinical distinction between "spree shooters" and "revenge shooters" is blinding you to the essence of Columbine, as I previously suggested.

Also, you are making a distinction between property damage and human life that was not at play in regard to the boys' mentality, imho. They did hit a lot of totems in the school, some of them were made of flesh, others just of money and hubris.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

You have got to be kidding to suggest that they would not know the members of the CHS football team, whether ex-members, underclassmen or not.

If that was true, they would have known Depooter and Shoels have quit the teams becuase of conflicts with the jocks. So they wouldn't have been "preferred targets" either way, at leats not as jocks. I can agree that Shoels was singled out because he was black.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

You are, frankly, missing the whole point of NBK and the evidence is not at all in your favor. CHS was obsessed with sports and particularity football-players and wrestlers. They would have been like celebrities on the CHS campus.

If E&D were so obsessed with sports, then why it doesn't appear in their journals?

Gustopoet2 wrote:

As for the rest of your objections; as far as I can tell, I've already addressed them, often repeatedly, while you still have not answered my original question.

This statement is false. I have answered it in my 6th post on page 1, then even repeated it a few times. Here, let me quote myself once again:

Me wrote:

Savage was spared on purpose - Dylan remembered him from class and probably liked him. I think he said "identify yourself" because it was loud, he was in a hurry and sounded less awkward than: "You, wait... you are that kid from my class... what's your name again?"
Dylan was never big friends with John, but he vaguely reclaled him and that prolly saved his life.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Why did they ask so many people if they believed in God? Why did they spare Richard when he said "no"?

So many people being just Val Shnurr. The rest were misattributed. Richard originally told the police that the shooters never walked up to him and that Rachel never said anything after being shot. He changed his mind only years later after beeing pestered by evangelical christians. He wasn't the only one - some library witnessess were pressured by christians to say that Cassie was asked the god question.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

And since you have decided to make a personal comment, let me respond in kind: it is you who are grasping, Sabratha, and it is a grasping for the comfort of the status-quo and b.s. forwarded by the media and establishment.

Fails to make sense, seeing as I'm not a jock, not a christian and not even American.

Moreover I do need to stress that by repeating the myths about multiple girls being asked the God question, it is you who is in fact playing into the hand of the evangelical establishment and media.

"Moreover I do need to stress that by repeating the myths about multiple girls being asked the God question, it is you who is in fact playing into the hand of the evangelical establishment and media"

***

It's not a myth and they didn't just ask girls. I am not responsible for what the evangelical media does, nor am I "playing into" anything by suggesting that it was an evangelical bullying culture that caused NBK. Are you even reading my posts at all?

I suspect that what is at root of our disagreement here is that you do not accept bullying as the primary "cause" of Columbine and I most certainly do. Bullying is not just a physical act.

Your "answer" about why they asked people to identify themselves is no answer at all. If they did not care AT ALL about who they were killing it would not matter if they recognized someone from their class. You are actually  making my argument for me. You are saying "Yes, they looked at people, evaluated them, and decided whether or not to shoot them."

I didn't say they were obsessed with sports; I said they wanted to tear down the totems of CHS. If you do not see athletes and sports as power totems at CHS, there is not much I can do to help you.

BTW, saying that something was not in their journals is a non-sequitur: like saying because they didn't write about their brothers in their journals means they never had any impact on their lives.

And Dylan did write about jocks and he said:  "as I see the people at school — some good, some bad — I see how different I am (aren’t we all you’ll say) yet I’m on such a greater scale of difference than everyone else (as far as I know, or guess). I see jocks having fun, friends, women, LIVEZ."

Everyone at Columbine High School was a "type." A jock, a Christian, a nerd, a cheerleader, an outcast, etc. each one of these groups had distinctive clothing, distinctive topics of conversation, distinctive friends associations, distinctive tables and areas of the school (territories for the more rabid Social Darwinists out there) and distinctive routines. In fact it may not be much of a stretch to substitute the word "rigid" for 'distinctive" here. CHS society was/is like a caste system.

It was not necessary for Eric or Dylan to have personally associated or personally known by name the victims of NBK for them to still be able to identify them by general type. In fact, that is the reason that NBK happened at all. They were striking back against the whole system of types and categories.

Just as an average Columbine student would have looked at Eric or Dylan without specially knowing them and thought "Outcasts. Trenchcoat Mafia. Losers" Eric and Dylan could make on-spot assessments of their victims not based only on their specific identities but on their types.

I didn't think there was really any question as to 'why' Dylan and Eric 'went NBK'. Didn't they say it many times? Didn't they say it was because how they were treated? How the popular kids had 'given them shit' for years? Didn't Eric even say that maybe if they treated him better and with respect that maybe it all could have been stopped but he doubted that it would?

Anyone who thinks that bullying didn't play a part in this school shooting must not have been listening to what Dylan and Eric were saying. Didn't Dylan say that everyone except his parents treated him like a weakling? An underdog?

These kids felt neglected, left out, picked on and on top of it they were both mentally sick and suicidal. It's pretty clear that these are 2 big reasons why Columbine happened. And honestly, I don't see how anyone can see it any differently. This is not my opinion, this is what Dylan and Eric sat downstairs in the basement talking about for hours on end. This is what they wrote about in their journals.

These aren't just 2 kids who woke up one day and said 'hey, lets go shoot up the school'. These were 2 kids who did not fit in even though they wanted to. These are 2 kids who felt that other groups of kids such as athletes and popular kids were treated better than them. They were angry and they were depressed.

I think that they did pick and choose who they were going to shoot. But we will never know for sure because the only people who could tell us are dead. I also believe they knew a lot of their victims because they spent a lot of time, Eric in particular, studying the school and the movements of the students and he would know who hung out where and when. He drew an entire map of the Cafeteria and counted how many kids were in there at any given time. He also knew where the jocks and popular kids sat and I do believe that is why they placed the bombs at that particular table.

Granted, their plan didn't go as they expected so they had to improvise. But the question is, did they just shoot anybody and everybody or did they shoot particular groups of kids? Probably a little bit of both. Some people just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some of them, I am sure they recognized as athletes and/or popular kids. If they seen somebody they liked, such as John Savage, they let him go.

Take the table Craig Scott was sitting at. There were what looked to be 3 athletes sitting under that table and they shot at them numerous times and threw a pipe bomb at them. Same thing with the table Patrick Ireland was sitting under, but a table with a bunch of girls huddled together and crying were marked off as 'pathetic' and they moved on to someone else. And then there were some tables they didn't even bother to look under and just shot the kids.

So personally, I think it could have been a little bit of both. Clearly they were going after jocks because they said it when they went into the Library and even asked a student (Evan Todd) if he was a jock. And then some of the people they shot didn't fit their list at all.

Interesting thread though. Lots of different opinions and discussions. I've enjoyed reading this thread. Clearly some people disagree with each other and that is perfectly fine. We will never know the real truth anyway because Dylan and Eric are the only ones who knew what the heck they were doing that day and they are dead so it just leaves us with a lot of speculation and opinions.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

I am repeating the victim list because I think it's relevant here:  

1. Lauren Townsend -- was a senior and captain of the girls' varsity volleyball team/ member of the National Honor Society/candidate for valedictorian of her graduating class."

2. John Tomlin ... belonged to a church youth group ... He loved church and Chevrolet trucks.  Christian.

3. Isiah Shoals. He had played cornerback the previous year on the football team...Isaiah was a popular boy; Columbine principal Frank DeAngelis said his classmates would compete to work on school projects with him".  Athelete; minority.

4. Rachel Scott... active in the Celebration Christian Fellowship church." High-Profile Christian.

5. Corey DePooter was a former wrestler who loved to hike, golf, hunt, and fish. He loved wrestling, golf and in-line skating" Athlete.

6. William "Dave Sanders was a computer and business teacher at Columbine for 25 years, and coach of the girls' basketball and softball teams" Coach; School Authority figure.

7. Kelly Fleming:Her body was found on the floor near that of Lauren Townsend. Kelly's father said: "Here's one of the real leaders of the  school, and our Kelly was next to someone like that. I'm sure Lauren took care of Kelly. She wasn't alone.

8. Cassie Bernall -- Vocal, born-again Christian.

9. Steve Curnow: Steve Curnow dreamed of being a Navy top gun pilot and was very close with his mom Susan and father Robert (Bob). He loved soccer and worked part-time as a referee and his dad Bob coached the soccer team (Blue Devils of the Colorado Rush) he played on. Steve liked the color green, because it was the color of the field. His favorite classes were Spanish, technology, and gym because he got to play sports. Remembered as a huge fan, he watched the Star Wars movies so many times he could recite the dialogue along with the actors"

10. Brian Anderson: When investigators asked Brian why he thought Eric shot at him, Brian told them "because I was wearing a white hat" and explained that many of the school's athletes wore white hats to school.

11. Richard Castaldo: "in an exclusive set of interviews with this reporter and his assistant, Castaldo has revealed his secret: After Dylan Klebold shot him, Castaldo now maintains, Eric Harris pointed his rifle at Castaldo and asked if he believed in God.

As frightened as he felt, Castaldo said he responded with candor.

“I answered honestly,” Castaldo says. “I told him ‘no’. I told him ‘no,’ and I ‘m alive because of it.”

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

12. Valeen Schnurr: "She found herself sitting next to Lauren ... Attracted by Val's cries, the shooters both came over to where she was. One of the shooters, who was reloading his weapon at the time, then asked her if she believed in God. She floundered in her answer, saying no at first and then yes, trying to get the answer 'right'. He asked her 'Why?' and she said it was because it was what her family believed.

13. Lisa Kreutz: was also sitting near Lauren.

14. Jeanna Park: Ditto.

15.Kyle Velasquez: Dylan shot him at point blank range so he saw who it was. He'd already threatened to kill another special needs kid. His mother was a special needs kids teacher who did not see her own son's dissolution into suicide and mass murder.

16. Neil Gardner: Cop.

17. Frank DeAngelis: School Principle -- claims he was shot at.

So either the boys were showing preference for target types or they just got really lucky through blind shooting and almost everyone they hit fell into their stated target type. Since all through the attack they were saying they wanted to kill Christians, cops, jocks, and bitches and then interrogating people to find out if they indeed fell into one of the target types,  I am going to take them at their word.

Finally, the bombs were placed under the "jock" table. So even if they were going to kill everyone, they wanted to kill athletes the most. This did not change during the improvised attack. They did the best they could with what they had on hand.

You're forgetting

18. Matt Kechter: Jock.

And I'd also add...

19. Craig Scott, lying still in a pool of blood: Jock.

20. Dan Steepleton, lying still: Jock.

etc.

They never tried to "finish off" people who seemed dead enough to them, so we have to keep in mind that to them, there was no difference between a dead target and a visibly wounded target covered in blood that's stopped moving.

They shot the Hall-Steepleton-Eubanks table a lot, threw bombs as well; I would say that the true casuality list -- and that's just sheer luck for these few guys under that particular table -- does not accurately reflect what E&D thought they had killed.

Sabratha wrote:

You said that Kechter and Depooter were shot because they had sports careers. But you don't provide any evidence to show that E&D were aware of this. They never had classess with Depooter or Kechter, both were younger kids. Lower classmen that E&D knew nothing about.

You are assuming that E&D knew these kids, their religion and their hobbies. But they did not. These were stangers, underclassmen that they never had classess with or hanged out with.

Um, just a look at Kechter or DePooter and you immediately know they're the jocky type even if they're strangers.

(Goes the other way around too: you look at a pic of Daniel Mauser and you know that guy's not the captain of the football team.)

Thank you for the additions and some good points, lio45, I am working up a "final" list of the dead victims. I will follow that up with a list of wounded and shot-ats.

Regarding Kyle Velasquez position when shot [page 012321]:

The body of VELASQUEZ (Body 10) was found on the floor in front of computer station 7. while his student ID was on top of the monitor of station 6 immediately east of station 7.

Bloodstains and tissue found in the area by VELASQUEZ included the ceiling to the northeast; the top of the table; CURNOWs books on this table to the west of this computer station; and some of the computer stations to the north and northwest, which included some hair-like material.

(Note: Although the number 7 was at this station, the monitor bore 9B and the CPU bore 9A.)

The greatest accumulation of blood and hair and possible tissue exhibiting a general conical appearance was on the face (or south side) of the horizontal plate running beneath the tabletop edge at a height of about 26". This was consistent with VELASQUEZ receiving a head wound while the affected area of his head was generally at the same height (approximately 26") as this
plate.

No hair, tissue or blood was observed on the underside of the tabletop.

Dead Victims:

1) Cassie Bernall: Born again Christian, very vocal about it.

2) Steven Curnow: Athelete; Coach's son.

3) Corey dePooter: Wrestler; described as "All American."

4) Kelly Fleming: Found near the "A" library crowd, father commended her in death by saying she had died near the "real leaders of the school."

5) Matt Ketcher:  210 pound Sophomore: He played on both the offensive and defensive lines of the football team. EDIT: After NBK, CHS football [players threatened to avenge his murder by going after Brooks Brown: "At Matt Ketcher's funeral, a few of the football players had been talking about getting together and coming after me." (p.169 No Easy Answers)  

6) Daniel Mauser: Tried to fight back.

7) Isaiah Shoels: Athlete/Minority, probably recognized by name.

8 ) John Tomlin: Tried to fight back. (Christian activist)

9) Lauren Townsend: Valedictorian/ captain of the Volleyball Team; coach's daughter. School leader.

10) Dave Sanders: High profile teacher, coach, hall monitor, and school leader.

11) Kyle Velasquez: Special needs student.

12) Rachel Scott: Very high profile, evangelical Christian.

13) Daniel Rorborough: Maybe killed by police.

Out of the 13, eight are without a doubt squarely within the boys' preferred stated target-groups: Cassie, Steve, Corey, Matt, Isaiah, Rachel, Lauren, and Dave. Nine if you count John Tomlin who was also an active evangelical Christian.  

Even if you don't count Tomlin, out the five remaining: two tried to fight back, one may have been shot by the police. One was sitting next to the "popular girls" and got caught in the crossfire and the remaining victim was a special needs student who may have held a unique target-value for Dylan Klebold who is the one who shot him at point blank range. As evidence for this, I believe Kyle is one of only two casualties (the other being Matt Ketcher) who were only shot by Dylan.

Anyone looking to suggest that the boys were not selective shooters has to deal with these numbers. It is a simple fact. They either were selective or they just got lucky. The fact that there is so much evidence to suggest that they did look at and evaluate their targets (referenced in the upstream posts) tips the scales even further in the direction of selective shooting.

The fact that they let numerous people escape is also proof of selective shooting.

Jenn wrote:

I think that they did pick and choose who they were going to shoot. But we will never know for sure because the only people who could tell us are dead. I also believe they knew a lot of their victims because they spent a lot of time, Eric in particular, studying the school and the movements of the students and he would know who hung out where and when. He drew an entire map of the Cafeteria and counted how many kids were in there at any given time. He also knew where the jocks and popular kids sat and I do believe that is why they placed the bombs at that particular table.

Granted, their plan didn't go as they expected so they had to improvise. But the question is, did they just shoot anybody and everybody or did they shoot particular groups of kids? Probably a little bit of both. Some people just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Some of them, I am sure they recognized as athletes and/or popular kids. If they seen somebody they liked, such as John Savage, they let him go.

Take the table Craig Scott was sitting at. There were what looked to be 3 athletes sitting under that table and they shot at them numerous times and threw a pipe bomb at them. Same thing with the table Patrick Ireland was sitting under, but a table with a bunch of girls huddled together and crying were marked off as 'pathetic' and they moved on to someone else.

These are very good points. Thanks for offering them. I forgot about the pipe-bomb.

Speaking of which, one of the un-exploded pipe-bombs that was recovered said "VoDkA Vengeance" on it, correct? That seems pretty straightforward to me: revenge played a huge role in the motivation for the attack. That revenge was for bullying and against the CHS hierarchy that enabled it.

Jenn wrote:

It's pretty clear that these are 2 big reasons why Columbine happened. And honestly, I don't see how anyone can see it any differently. This is not my opinion, this is what Dylan and Eric sat downstairs in the basement talking about for hours on end. This is what they wrote about in their journals.

I need to disagree. The main reasons were in the heads of the killers. I also need to stress that they never write in their journals about being picked on.

Dylan once writes thet he envies jocks having lives and women. Then he spends countless pages on his love and his depression. He never mentions being picked on.

Eric mentions his friends not givign him enough respect, not asking him for advice and not being invited to cool parties. Then he spends far more space and effort explaining why he is dissatisfied with the world around him, how people are deprived of natural instincts and how social institutions make robots out of people.

Nothing about jocks or being picked on.

I'm surprised why people fail to recognize the reasons stated in the journals and listen to what Eric and Dylan have to say.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Jenn wrote:

I think that they did pick and choose who they were going to shoot. But we will never know for sure because the only people who could tell us are dead. I also believe they knew a lot of their victims because they spent a lot of time, Eric in particular, studying the school and the movements of the students and he would know who hung out where and when. He drew an entire map of the Cafeteria and counted how many kids were in there at any given time. He also knew where the jocks and popular kids sat and I do believe that is why they placed the bombs at that particular table.

Granted, their plan didn't go as they expected so they had to improvise. But the question is, did they just shoot anybody and everybody or did they shoot particular groups of kids? Probably a little bit of both. Some people just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Some of them, I am sure they recognized as athletes and/or popular kids. If they seen somebody they liked, such as John Savage, they let him go.

Take the table Craig Scott was sitting at. There were what looked to be 3 athletes sitting under that table and they shot at them numerous times and threw a pipe bomb at them. Same thing with the table Patrick Ireland was sitting under, but a table with a bunch of girls huddled together and crying were marked off as 'pathetic' and they moved on to someone else.

These are very good points. Thanks for offering them. I forgot about the pipe-bomb.

Speaking of which, one of the un-exploded pipe-bombs that was recovered said "VoDkA Vengeance" on it, correct? That seems pretty straightforward to me: revenge played a huge role in the motivation for the attack. That revenge was for bullying and against the CHS hierarchy that enabled it.

Yes, that's right. I also believe that their revenge towards the school was definitely because of how they were treated. I think they left many, many clues behind. Not just what they wrote in their journals and the things they were saying on the Basement Tapes but also the 'Hitmen for Hire' tape. This video was about a kid who wasn't popular being picked on by a jock/popular kid. Dylan and Eric wouldn't have just thought up this idea all on their own. Obviously they had been exposed to that kind of treatment, hence why they made an entire video revolving around it.

Not to mention friends/witnesses said that kids like Dylan and Eric were pushed around and picked on and daily too. And being picked on isn't just someone physically pushing you or saying mean things to you. Treating them like they didn't even exist and acting like they weren't even apart of the school is also a form of being picked on, just not directly. Students like Dylan and Eric would still be well aware that other kids didn't want them around and didn't like them.

I'm siding with Sabratha in this debate. Gustopoet2, your definition of a turbo jock seems to be literally anyone who plays any sport, even soccer.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I'm siding with Sabratha in this debate.  Gustopoet2, your definition of a turbo jock seems to be literally anyone who plays any sport, even soccer.

No-one said "turbo-jock" -- they did the best they could with what was available. Numbers are numbers and they stated their intentions clearly. It's really pretty straightforward, but so far as the counterargument goes, that they shot at random, simply doesn't match the evidence. Btw, Steve Curnow was the only soccer player on the list -- the others were football players and wrestlers; I assume that works for you? Three football players, a wrestler, the valedictorian, and one of the school's most beloved coach/teachers. Yes, don't believe your lyin' eyes.

BTW, Sergeant Hartman, please review Bree Pasquale's statement "They were shooting anyone in a white hat or of color or anyone who played a sport."




NOT, they were killing "turbo-jocks..."

You're talking about someone who could be identified as a jock type just by looking at them. Curnow and Depooter don't fit that description at all.

sergeant hartman wrote:

You're talking about someone who could be identified as a jock type just by looking at them.  Curnow and Depooter don't fit that description at all.

Gotta agree with this one. There is a difference between someone who plays sports, and someone who looks like a jock. If neither E or D new these were sports players, then the fact that they actually played sports is irrelevant. And if people are saying that they picked them because they looked like jocks, then they are just twisting evidence to fit a preconceived idea. Neither looked like jocks, especialy Steve Curnow who looked quite the opposite.

Even if we grant this it is only one person.

If I chalk Curnow up to "just got lucky" or "there is a high density of athletes at CHS because that is how you fit in even if all you can play is soccer" that still leaves a majority of victims that fit the profile and you are still left with the fact that out of the 52 students that could have been killed, only 10 actually were killed, so this is about 1/5 of the overall library population.

They had enough ammo to kill everyone there but they didn't. They spared all but those they shot. They spoke with victims, looked at them, asked them questions to determine if they fit the profile and acted on this.  

It is telling that such a small sample group they manged to hit: three football players, a wrestler, one of the school's only blacks, and the valedictorian school leader. Not to mention the born-agains.

Now break those numbers down even further because Mauser and Tomlin gave the boys no choice; they pretty much decided their own fates regardless of their clique standing. Then reduce even more because of Kyle who I would argue held a unique target-value for Dylan.

I am not suggesting that they were targeting with great accuracy, but they most obviously showed a target preference. I would add that they came to the library on purpose to seek high-value targets -- the library was a dense with high-value targets; they knew this for myriad reasons that are quite obvious for anyone who cares to look at the evidence or merely at the upstream posts. The collapsing library full of bitches, jocks, and "godly little whores" was supposed to come right down on the caf. jock-table, wiping out all the cliques in one fell swoop. Once the bombs failed they went to the library to shoot high value targets; on their way there, they shot Dave Sanders -- a high-value target.

But I'm willing to place an asterisk next to Curnow...  Doesn't really change the bulk of the argument tho: you still have a lot of dead jocks, school leaders, and Christians in the library and you still have crap-load of evidence to show that the boys were indeed having their "little Judgement Day."

And you still have to explain the most obvious thing of all: if they were "spree shooting" without preference, why didn't they just kill everyone in the library? The library held the softest targets they had all day and they only killed 10 people, virtually all of them target-types.

sergeant hartman wrote:

You're talking about someone who could be identified as a jock type just by looking at them.  Curnow and Depooter don't fit that description at all.

Corey dePooter was a wrestler, dude. Jocks were high-profile at CHS.

eli27 wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

You're talking about someone who could be identified as a jock type just by looking at them.  Curnow and Depooter don't fit that description at all.

Gotta agree with this one. There is a difference between someone who plays sports, and someone who looks like a jock. If neither E or D new these were sports players, then the fact that they actually played sports is irrelevant.

No it's not. They could identify them by type, by where they were, who they were sitting with, how they were dressed. If this is not the case, then why did athletes in the library take off their white hats and hide them? And I am not saying the ones they killed had white hats! So please let's not have that debate. It is obvious that we all on a daily basis make value judgement on everyone we see whether we know them or not based on types. I'd actually say "stereotypes."

This is true on steroids at CHS, and most high-schools for that matter. It is not just what you look like, physically. The boys had been at CHS for four years, please keep this in mind. They obsessed over the cliques and caste-system. This what drove them to do NBK in the first place.

It's well-documented that the boys asked "the jocks" / "the guys with white hats" to stand up upon entering the library.

And when no one stood up, Eric reportedly said "Fine, I'll start shooting anyways."

Seems crystal clear that they had at least SOME target preference.

Of course, everyone in there represents, to a degree, what they hate: CHS, and the society that looks down on them in general. So no one was totally safe, except for acquaintances/friends. It's a killing spree and they're there to have fun too. If they feel like killing someone, they will. If they feel like dismissing someone as pathetic, they will. If someone happens to be at the right place at the right time and/or makes themselves a target, like Velasquez who was just there in plain sight while everyone else was hiding, or Mauser who fought back, then they of course thereby greatly increased their chances of getting shot.

The higher your position was on the CHS totem pole, the less likely you were to turn out to be a library survivor. This much is clear to me, though there's obviously a lot of luck involved too 'cause E&D at this point were really "winging it out" and going with the flow.

lio45 wrote:

It's well-documented that the boys asked "the jocks" / "the guys with white hats" to stand up upon entering the library.

And when no one stood up, Eric reportedly said "Fine, I'll start shooting anyways."

Seems crystal clear that they had at least SOME target preference.

Of course, everyone in there represents, to a degree, what they hate: CHS, and the society that looks down on them in general. So no one was totally safe, except for acquaintances/friends. It's a killing spree and they're there to have fun too. If they feel like killing someone, they will. If they feel like dismissing someone as pathetic, they will. If someone happens to be at the right place at the right time and/or makes themselves a target, like Velasquez who was just there in plain sight while everyone else was hiding, or Mauser who fought back, then they of course thereby greatly increased their chances of getting shot.

The higher your position was on the CHS totem pole, the less likely you were to turn out to be a library survivor. This much is clear to me, though there's obviously a lot of luck involved too 'cause E&D at this point were really "winging it out" and going with the flow.

Exactly, I can't believe the confusion on this one. The boys wanted to be "Godlike" and they were willing to pay with their lives for that fleeting moment of power and -- they did the best they could. They did not just shoot people at random. Their motivation was to strike at totems of the school hierarchy. The numbers show that they did a pretty damn good job for the weapons they had and the time allotted. If you factor in the property damage then they didn't even waste much ammo.

If luck was on their side the bombs would've went off.

I think they were just fiercely determined, remorseless, and very highly motivated. I do not think they were confused or scared or so anxious they couldn't make sound evaluations. The hard numbers show that to be the case.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

So you say... I maintain he did know who she was. "THOSE BITCHES ARE STILL RIGHT OVER THERE!" Please keep in mind that the hierarchy at CHS was like a celebrity culture and certain tables and spaces were totem spaces...

Do we have a source for Dylan actually saying this?

You can hear it yourself on the library tape. Its @ 5:41 listen very closely; Dylan has an unmistakable yell.

I don't know how you guys manage to hear things on that 911 recording.

The only two things I hear are Eric's "Get up!" in the first (main) part, and Val's "Ohmigod!" in the extra bit that got released.

Put on some good headphones and let yourself relax. Listen multiple times. If necessary, go back to the "Car Wax" commercial and listen to Dylan screaming "What the hell are you doing to my sister's bike!" and then you will have his voice timbre in mind. Sounds almost exactly the same here.

I listened to the 911 tape about 100 times before I heard the "Those bitches..." yell. I got all excited because I thought I was the first one to hear it. lol Not quite. Ultimately, I had to ask Louise Bisson to tell me what Dylan was saying.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

eli27 wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

You're talking about someone who could be identified as a jock type just by looking at them.  Curnow and Depooter don't fit that description at all.

Gotta agree with this one. There is a difference between someone who plays sports, and someone who looks like a jock. If neither E or D new these were sports players, then the fact that they actually played sports is irrelevant.

No it's not. They could identify them by type, by where they were, who they were sitting with, how they were dressed. If this is not the case, then why did athletes in the library take off their white hats and hide them? And I am not saying the ones they killed had white hats! So please let's not have that debate. It is obvious that we all on a daily basis make value judgement on everyone we see whether we know them or not based on types. I'd actually say "stereotypes."

This is true on steroids at CHS, and most high-schools for that matter. It is not just what you look like, physically. The boys had been at CHS for four years, please keep this in mind. They obsessed over the cliques and caste-system. This what drove them to do NBK in the first place.

Dude, you left out the last part of my comment which is quite relevant to your post. You say its not irrelevant if they were into sports if E&D didn't know it, but they were the ones in charge and what they don't know can't be relevant. I said that if they didn't identify them by knowing them, then they would identify them by looks, and to me they look nothing like jocks. Obviously to you, they do, but neither of us know exactly what E&D where thinking about the looks of everyone in the library, so unless you can show me evidence that E&D already knew they were into sports and what they thought of them, neither of us can prove we are right. Also, I did not say that E&D didn't know who they were before, I simply said what I thought they would have seen them as in the library, had they had not known of them previously. Just because they had been to Columbine for four years, doesn't mean they did know who they were, but then I cannot say that they definately didn't. I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

Fair enough -- but I don't think it is so hard to make those spot-identifications. Also, they did not just casually interact with the other students at CHS, they freakin' stalked them by computer, through rebel missions, and through preparing for NBK.

It might be helpful if we are more specific in what we mean by "they." If you are talking about Kurnow and Ketcher, I think Matt did look like a jock. As for Steve, as I said previously, I am willing to put an asterisk on this one.

In the end, no matter how you slice it, the numbers tell the story. So like I said, they either got lucky or they actually did what they said they wanted to do. I am still convinced the bulk of the evidence suggests the latter.

They do not seem like lucky people to me at all.

OK, this thread is very robust and full of debate and that is awesome. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and opinions so far. Special shout out to Sabratha for leading the opposing argument in fine spirit with great effect.



My apologies to you, Sabratha, if I seemed snarky in some of my posts; I wanted to keep the thread moving along and not have it be the "Gusto-Sabratha cage-match." Each of your points is highly valid and you are an articulate and well-informed advocate for your position in this debate.

I've been summing up my points periodically; I think I should now try to sum up the opposing point of view as I understand it so far:

1. NBK was as much an outgrowth of the boys' psychopathy as it was a response to bullying. The attack fulfills a clinical "spree shooter" definition and was not primarily driven by the seeking out of revenge targets. The boys operated from different psychopathic viewpoints; Eric was homicidal and Dylan was suicidal.

2. They planned to kill everyone during NBK. They had little or no preference for who was blown up or shot in their attack.

3. Many first-hand witnesses; in fact, the preponderance of witnesses describe them as shooting "randomly."

4. People were shot at, shot, and killed who did not fit the boys' stated profile type.

5. People who fit the profile type (like Evan Todd) were spared.

6. They were not very familiar with the population of CHS at large, and particularly the underclassman, so they would not have been able to identify anyone anyway.

7. They didn't shoot at, wound, or kill any jocks or bullies.

8. In the library, the boys shot under tables without even bothering to see who was there.

9. CHS has such a high population of athletes and Christians that any random sample of victims would probably sort out w/ roughly the same percentage of "jocks" and  evangelicals.

10. There is no evidence that the boys were targeting evangelicals anyway.

I would add to this argument the fact that many analysts and writers agree with the major points of it and that the argument is well-articulated not only by Sabratha and others here on the board but in the available Columbine lit. It is also well substantiated, as Sabratha indicated, by the boys' journals.

It's a damned compelling argument. I thank each of you who have challenged my assumptions so far and I hope the thread can continue to grow.