Did They Know Who They Killed

I think both "sides" are somewhat correct. They had a preference for jocks, but they also "hated most people" (direct Eric quote while he was getting filmed in the commons) and wanted revenge against CHS / society in general, not only jocks.

Anyone in the school on that day who wasn't at least an acquaintance or friend (Brooks Brown, John Savage) was an enemy, a flag-bearer for "CHS and society in general, who has looked down on you two for so long, who sat there while you got bullied and humiliated, never called you, never even looked at you, etc."

So they unleashed their pent-up fury on everyone, though they still favored jocks, when possible.

Of course, that was true only up to the point where they got jaded and didn't really see the point of continuing with their rampage anymore; they had their fun, and by that point the killing was starting to become pretty repetitive and no longer a thrill.

lio45 wrote:

I think both "sides" are somewhat correct. They had a preference for jocks, but they also "hated most people" (direct Eric quote while he was getting filmed in the commons) and wanted revenge against CHS / society in general, not only jocks.

Anyone in the school on that day who wasn't at least an acquaintance or friend (Brooks Brown, John Savage) was an enemy, a flag-bearer for "CHS and society in general, who has looked down on you two for so long, who sat there while you got bullied and humiliated, never called you, never even looked at you, etc."

So they unleashed their pent-up fury on everyone, though they still favored jocks, when possible.

Of course, that was true only up to the point where they got jaded and didn't really see the point of continuing with their rampage anymore; they had their fun, and by that point the killing was starting to become pretty repetitive and no longer a thrill.

I agree with almost everything you are saying lio45. We differ on some slight points as we both know, but in the main I'm with you.

Another aspect of the improvised attack is the element of time. There is no way the boys could have foreseen that they would wind up with so much time to conduct their rampage. They had factored the response times of the cops pretty accurately, but I am sure they expected a substantial force of police to enter the school way before they actually did so. And let's face it...one should have come into the school, preferably from multiple entrances and armed to the teeth.

Believe it or not, I think this actually lends credence to the idea that they targeted specific victims. The library was going to be their last hurrah no matter what. Either the bombs would go off, or the cops would kill them. When this turned out not to be the case, they had already peaked, emotionally, physically, and mentally. Eric's nose was broken and they had nothing left to do.

True spree shooters would have just kept shooting until they ran out of ammo. So would murderous psychopaths.

Instead, they wandered around shooting at the school. During this time they spared not just a few people but dozens. They saw classrooms full of kids; there were still kids in the cafeteria, they could have "spree killed" until their ammo was gone and suicided in the mound of "random" bodies. They didn't.

List of injured.

Library victims first:


1. Patrick Ireland: "The Columbine junior...had played basketball and baseball in the Rebels' programs"

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2. Makai Hall:  "He was hiding under a table with Dan Steepleton and Patrick Ireland when the shooters entered the library. When they demanded that everyone with white hats stand up, he held back Dan, telling him: "Don't move." At one point Dylan came within line of sight of their table and, smiling, opened fire. Makai was hit in the knee by the shotgun blast."

3.Daniel Steepleton: "He and Makai sat at a table with Corey DePooter, Patrick Ireland, and Austin Eubanks"

4. Nicole Nowlen: No target value; hiding next to John Tomlin.

5. Stephen Austin Eubanks: He was with best friend Corey DePooter in the library when the shooting began. When the teacher ran in telling everyone to get down, he, Corey, Jennifer Doyle, and an unknown freshman hid under the same table. When the shooters entered the room, Austin heard a bomb go off in the library, and then could hear the gunmen walking around randomly shooting people. He knew the shooters by their first names and later told investigators that usually Dylan wore a trenchcoat but wasn't wearing it in the library at that time.

6. Jennifer Doyle: "She was going to get under the table she shared with Mark but, concerned that it wasn't big enough to hide her, she ran to a table toward the back of the library where she hid with Austin Eubanks and Corey DePooter."

7. Mark Kintgen: Another special needs student.

8. Lisa Kreutz:  "She joined Jessica, Jeanna, Diwata, and Lauren Townsend. Jessica left soon after Lisa sat down and headed over to the computer section. About that time Lisa heard the first popping gunshots. Her story is similar to many of those in the library that day: She hid under the table she was at when Patti Nielson came through and told the room to do so, joining her friends and another girl Kelly Fleming." "She heard an explosion inside the library then and she heard one of the gunmen say that they hated the school and that the school had messed them up."

9. Jeanna Park: "Jeanna was hiding under the table with Lauren Townsend, Lisa Kreutz, Diwata Perez, [Kelly Fleming], and Valeen Schnurr when the shooters entered the library." "When Valeen was flushed out from under the table she heard one of the gunmen ask her if she believed in god and later told investigators she knew it wasn't Dylan Klebold because she knew his voice from sharing a class with him before."

10. Valeen "Val" Schnurr: "While Val was reading she heard a shot and shortly after, teacher Patti Nielson came in, telling everyone to get down. Val hid moved to the table where Jessica had been and hid beneath it, along with the other girls who had been sitting there. She found herself sitting next to Lauren" "One of the shooters, who was reloading his weapon at the time, then asked her if she believed in God. She floundered in her answer, saying no at first and then yes, trying to get the answer 'right'. He asked her 'Why?"

11. Evan Todd: He returned to Columbine when he was well enough and went on to play for the Columbine Rebels' state championship football team. He also held a 27-10 wrestling record on the varsity squad and made Eagle Scout in 2000. He was last planning to attend college and pursue a career as a federal law enforcement officer.

Non-Library Wounded

Brian Anderson: When investigators asked Brian why he thought Eric shot at him, Brian told them "because I was wearing a white hat" and explained that many of the school's athletes wore white hats to school. Brian had had previous interaction Brian Anderson - 2008with the gunmen before 4-20 and they had asked him 2-3 weeks before the shootings to help them find a website where they could find sound effects for a video they were making that involved a house under seige by gunmen but Brian was unable to help them.

"They were after jocks,'' said Anderson, adding that the suspects shot at anybody wearing a Columbine sweatshirt. "Anybody involved in sports.'' [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mark Taylor: Mark had been attending Columbine for only three weeks when the shooting happened. A born-again Christian, he was exchanging ideas with Mormon students while waiting for the lines in the cafeteria to get shorter.

To be continued...

Sorry, I need to step in and explain why I disagree with the fundamental way you classify people as "high profile targets".

First of all, evangelical born-again christians were very numerous at CHS, probably over 1/3rd of teh population. Combined with other but also practicing christians, christians in total were certainly the majority of the student population. Atheists or people of different religions were a small minority, if you trust Brooks then these were mostly outcasts, TCM people or punks.

So if you count in all christians, then this by defult makes the vast majority of CHS students "high profile targets".

Also, if you don't just count "jocks" (high status, athletes, rich and engaged in heavy parties like the steroid poster boys) but everyone who was involved in sports currently or in the past, then again this includes a huge amount of the population of CHS. Eric Harris himself actually fits in a group defined this way - he was known to cheer on the CHS teams when his athlete brother played, Eric himself was also an ex-soccer plaayer and enjoyed soccer.

If Eric was a victim during the shooting, you would be here now saying he was killed because he was a socceer palyer, ignoring the fact that in 1999 he was no longer a memeber of any team, had gripes with jocks, had no girlfriend, wanted to join the marines and was friends with outcasts.

Why do I think this? Because that's what you are doing with Corey. Corey was no longer a member of the team, had gripes with jocks (that's why he left iirc), wanted to join mariens, did nto have a gf iirc and was friends with outcasts - same kids Dylan was friends with.


So, if you add all christians and all kids who played sports plus their friends, then you end up with roughly 80% or so of the CHS poipulation being "high profile targets", including non-popular kids like Eric or outcats like Vendengia.

But even if someone doesn't fit into this huge group comprising most of CHS students (Kelly - she was not popular, didn't play sports, was not friends with sports people), then you say: "well, she was sitting near a person who played sports so its reason enough to make her a target".

I just don't buy into that.


My point is: if you define "high profile targets" in a way that makes the overwhelming majority of all CHS students qualify, then it is no wonder that most of the wounded and killed fit in. That's statistics for you.

Sabratha wrote:

Sorry, I need to step in and explain why I disagree with the fundamental way you classify people as "high profile targets".

First of all, evangelical born-again christians were very numerous at CHS, probably over 1/3rd of teh population. Combined with other but also practicing christians, christians in total were certainly the majority of the student population. Atheists or people of different religions were a small minority, if you trust Brooks then these were mostly outcasts, TCM people or punks.

So if you count in all christians, then this by defult makes the vast majority of CHS students "high profile targets".

Also, if you don't just count "jocks" (high status, athletes, rich and engaged in heavy parties like the steroid poster boys) but everyone who was involved in sports currently or in the past, then again this includes a huge amount of the population of CHS. Eric Harris himself actually fits in a group defined this way - he was known to cheer on the CHS teams when his athlete brother played, Eric himself was also an ex-soccer plaayer and enjoyed soccer.

If Eric was a victim during the shooting, you would be here now saying he was killed because he was a socceer palyer, ignoring the fact that in 1999 he was no longer a memeber of any team, had gripes with jocks, had no girlfriend, wanted to join the marines and was friends with outcasts.

Why do I think this? Because that's what you are doing with Corey. Corey was no longer a member of the team, had gripes with jocks (that's why he left iirc), wanted to join mariens, did nto have a gf iirc and was friends with outcasts - same kids Dylan was friends with.


So, if you add all christians and all kids who played sports plus their friends, then you end up with roughly 80% or so of the CHS poipulation being "high profile targets", including non-popular kids like Eric or outcats like Vendengia.

But even if someone doesn't fit into this huge group comprising most of CHS students (Kelly - she was not popular, didn't play sports, was not friends with sports people), then you say: "well, she was sitting near a person who played sports so its reason enough to make her a target".

I just don't buy into that.


My point is: if you define "high profile targets" in a way that makes the overwhelming majority of all CHS students qualify, then it is no wonder that most of the wounded and killed fit in. That's statistics for you.

That's a fair point and it needs to be addressed. I did add it to my list of "counterarguments:"

"9. "CHS has such a high population of athletes and Christians that any random sample of victims would probably sort out w/ roughly the same percentage of "jocks" and  evangelicals."

At some point I plan to deal with each of the objections one by one. I would just say, for now, that it is not my definition of what makes a "high value target" that is shaping my argument, but what the boys themselves stated repeatedly.

"Harris apparently reconfigured Doom so that when victims were killed, they cried out, "Lord, why is this happening to me (Hubbard 1999) an apparent allusion to evangelical Christians, toward whom both Klebold and Harris evinced a great deal of animus. This practice suggests that Eric used the game as a form of surrogate killing." (Larkin p. 170)

I feel that this passage strengthens the argument that the boys asked multiple people whether or not they believed in God during NBK. I also think it bolsters the idea that Christian evangelicals were worth more "points" to them during the shooting and were likely targeted.

Please keep in mind that many of the library victims were wearing Christian paraphernalia like jewelry or had been known to carry a Bible around school. Also many of the library victims were praying before they were shot or shot at.

Larkin concludes: "It is fairly clear in Harris's case, the characters in the video games were stand-ins for people he wanted to kill in real life." (Larkin 170-71).

--Ralph W. Larkin Comprehending Columbine

Larkin's source is B. Hubbard "Researchers say Harris reconfigured video game" Denver Rocky Mountain News. 1999.

I don't see any evidence that they targeted jocks.

They could've shot up the weight room, a football game, etc.  

It says volumes that they didn't. And yeah, they made the one comment about the white hats, but they also made comments about black people.

Quite the heated discussion.

There are many, many witness reports of Eric and Dylan shouting for the jocks to stand up in the library. There is no question that they wanted to annihilate some jocks. Depooter definitely looked like a jock to me, or at least a popular kid, and he often wore a white hat. Curnow is harder to say... he doesn't look like a jock in his yearbook photo, but that was taken SEVEN MONTHS prior to the shooting (Eric and Dylan looked a lot different from their yearbook photos also).

I think Eric and Dylan had general hatred for jocks (not "turbo" jocks, but any athletes who made them feel like shit), and also hatred for Christians. They were almost one and the same at CHS. Columbine was the type of school where almost everyone was Christian, and if you weren't, people literally got in your face and said you were going to hell.

I bet they recognized Amanda Stair as Joe's sister and purposefully left her alone. I believe she said Dylan stopped right in front of her and put his gun on the computer table, and that he must have seen her... maybe he wanted her to know he'd seen her, and then spared her.

lasttrain wrote:

I don't see any evidence that they targeted jocks.

They could've shot up the weight room, a football game, etc.  

It says volumes that they didn't.  And yeah, they made the one comment about the white hats, but they also made comments about black people.  

lasttrain -- please see the upstream posts and associated references. Thanks.

lasttrain wrote:

I don't see any evidence that they targeted jocks.

They could've shot up the weight room, a football game, etc.  

It says volumes that they didn't.  And yeah, they made the one comment about the white hats, but they also made comments about black people.  

And why does making racist comments cancel out the comments to jocks? Under the circumstances they did what they could. Once you start to hate the jocks and the bullies, that hatred expands to the bystanders and the school as a whole.

The racist comment doesn't cancel out anything, they were racist as hell, so them shooting the black kid because he was black actually goes along with them targeting specific types. So, meh you proved nothing, try again.

eli27 wrote:

And why does making racist comments cancel out the comments to jocks? Under the circumstances they did what they could. Once you start to hate the jocks and the bullies, that hatred expands to the bystanders and the school as a whole.

Yep.

aubre wrote:

The racist comment doesn't cancel out anything, they were racist as hell, so them shooting the black kid because he was black actually goes along with them targeting specific types. So, meh you proved nothing, try again.

lasttrain can't admit they targeted anyone because that would mean they weren't "Psycho and Emo" (thanks [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) but actually "Reb and Vodka" which is a much harder pair to deal with.

meenwhile wrote:

There are many, many witness reports of Eric and Dylan shouting for the jocks to stand up in the library. There is no question that they wanted to annihilate some jocks. Depooter definitely looked like a jock to me, or at least a popular kid, and he often wore a white hat.

Well, Corey Depooter was friends with unpopular kids, like Mike Vendegnia (Mike is the dark haired guy you see on all of Eric and Dylan's videos made for the film class). Mike and Corey were friends and knew each other through church. Mike described Corey as, quote: "very bright and easy to get along with."
Source:
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Its possible Mike was saying this because he wanted to say something nice after his friend died. But "very bright and easy to get along with" don't seem to be the first nice things taht come to your mind if you are talking about a sports-crazy jock.

Corey's mom seems to be a jehovah witness, so perhaps both Mike and Corey were of that denomination.
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meenwhile wrote:

I think Eric and Dylan had general hatred for jocks (not "turbo" jocks, but any athletes who made them feel like shit), and also hatred for Christians. They were almost one and the same at CHS. Columbine was the type of school where almost everyone was Christian, and if you weren't, people literally got in your face and said you were going to hell.

Totally agree. Some students even carried Bibles around school. A lot of teachers were also coaches. The teachers and admin. supported the school hierarchy.

meenwhile wrote:

I bet they recognized Amanda Stair as Joe's sister and purposefully left her alone. I believe she said Dylan stopped right in front of her and put his gun on the computer table, and that he must have seen her... maybe he wanted her to know he'd seen her, and then spared her.

It is certainly possible.

I don't know if they killed Isaiah so much out of racism as much as having a dispute with him in the past.
Even thought they threw racial slurs at him, I don't think racism is their main motivation.
I have always believed that it's likely that Isaiah was one of the victims that E &D had a run in with before.
Of course, that doesn't excuse or justify them killing him.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I have always believed that it's likely that Isaiah was one of the victims that E &D had a run in with before.
.

I think so too. When they saw him they said "There's that little nigger." They knew who he was for sure.

It's just a painful stretch to act like they were shooting anyone in particular.

I mean everyone belongs to some category, so you could force the argument. But Eric and Dylan didn't even know these people or have all this info about them.

They were just shooting under tables at whoever struck their fancy. That's all.

lasttrain wrote:

They were just shooting under tables at whoever struck their fancy.  That's all.

Yes, lasttrain, they were indeed "shooting under tables at whoever struck their fancy." That is my entire point here.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I have always believed that it's likely that Isaiah was one of the victims that E &D had a run in with before.
.

I think so too. When they saw him they said "There's that little nigger." They knew who he was for sure.

Isaiah's Dad said that E &D had a dispute with his son in the past. As far as I am aware he has never refuted this. One could say that he was mistaken ,but I believe that he was probably right.
I don't know if E &D ever had an interaction with any other victims or not but I think they had at least one with Isaiah.

Given that Eric and Dylan were racists and wanted to kill black people, it makes sense they would have picked on the smallest African American in the school prior to the shooting. It fits their pattern of bullying those smaller than them.

And Isaiah is the only real person that they truly singled out to be shot for some definitive personal characteristic. And it was race, not jock or bully.

Among other things Eric and Dylan were racist killers, and this is a fact about them that is often glossed over.

Its entirely possible they recognized Amanda, although its worth noting she never said she had the impression that any of them recognized her.

Its just my guess, but I think if Dylan recognized her and wanted to spare her, he would probably tell her to get up and run away like he did with Savage. Remember they still had some hopes of blowing up the eplosives downstairs, which would harm and/or kill those still alive in the library.

Details on Isaiah are murky at best. Hard to say if they had any big grips with him, though its possible. I thik its not very likely, as Dylan referred to him as "a nigger" and not "that nigger" or "That fucking nigger" etc, which is what I'd assume he would say if he had specific personal gripes with him.

Again, hate to speak badly about vistims families, but the Shoels are not the most trustworthy sources, especially as even Kass mentions they believe the shooting was a government coverup of sorts.

Sabratha wrote:

Details on Isaiah are murky at best. Hard to say if they had any big grips with him, though its possible. I thik its not very likely, as Dylan referred to him as "a nigger" and not "that nigger" or "That fucking nigger" etc, which is what I'd assume he would say if he had specific personal gripes with him.

Wrong. Please see 30:19 of this video:

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Now are you going to say John Savage is unreliable, too?

Sabratha wrote:

Again, hate to speak badly about vistims families, but the Shoels are not the most trustworthy sources, especially as even Kass mentions they believe the shooting was a government coverup of sorts.

Not everyone who disagrees with your PoV is an unreliable witness, Sabratha. For the record that is called an ad hominem attack and it is a logical fallacy.

Thanks for the link, I'm on a simple device here, will see the vid later.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Not everyone who disagrees with your PoV is an unreliable witness, Sabratha. For the record that is called an ad hominem attack and it is a logical fallacy.

What is my PoV btw?

I don't consider the Shoels family all that reliable, because when it comes to their CHS story they hold some really wacky conspiracy views about a government coverup. If they are so wrong on this part of the CHS story, then I have a valid reason to qbe suspicious about other parts of their story. This is not an ad hominem argument.

I always considered John to be one of the more reliable witnesses. I'll galdly see the video. I remember people mostly mentioning Dylan saying something to the extent of "Hey, there's a nigger over here". But perhaps John was closer and heard it as "ITs that nigger whose over here". I'm open to new information and entirely unwilling to make a big deal out of this. I get the impression taht you are seriously overestimating the toughness of my stance for some specific PoV.

Sabratha wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Not everyone who disagrees with your PoV is an unreliable witness, Sabratha. For the record that is called an ad hominem attack and it is a logical fallacy.

What is my PoV btw?
.

Yeah, I'll take that back. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. I shouldn't presume to know what it is.

However, the "unreliable witness" idea can be attached to any witness. That is why "attacking the man" rather than the argument is a logical fallacy.

meenwhile wrote:

I think they lean towards "Hey look, a nigger," suggesting they did not know Isaiah personally from any previous confrontations.

Thanks for the quotes meenwhile. You could be right for sure. However, there were very few blacks at CHS. Everyone at CHS probably knew Isaiah. He had been an athlete and he was very popular. I quoted DeAngelis in an upstream post talking about Isaiah's popularity. There are enough statements by witnesses to corroborate that the boys said "There's that little...." to indicate this was the case. They may not have had previous confrontations with him (though I personally think they did); but I still think they probably at least knew who he was.

meenwhile wrote:

These witness statements are a great example of the "Rashomon effect," which is people experiencing the same event but interpreting it very differently. All these witnesses were in the same room at the same time, but none of these statements are identical, even regarding just one sentence spoken about Isaiah.

Right. That is how you end up with "multiple shooter" conspiracies and the rest as well, because witness testimony can be so dodgy.

The CHS jocks and TCM had many run-ins with one-another. They left notes in lockers, fought, threw bottles at each other. They stalked one another off of school grounds. Eric and Dylan ran "Rebel Missions" frequently and I think we would be naive to believe that they were the only TCM-ish types to do so. I think there were fights and skirmishes between the "jocks" and TCM all the time. I think that when Eric and Dylan got close to Chris Morris they became more bold.

The odds are very good that a black jock (even an ex-jock) at CHS would be known to Eric and Dylan, especially a popular, outgoing guy like Isaiah. Additionally, Craig Scott was very good friends with Isaiah and I'm pretty sure we can all agree that Eric and Dylan knew who the Scotts were. It is not a wild leap to then guess they did recognize Isaiah since he was with Craig in the library.

meenwhile - Thanks for all the quotes, great job.

Well, this can be interpreted either way. Certainly no statement taht would make it obvious they knew him as anything other than a familiar face at CHS, mostly because he stood out just by being one of the very few black kids. I think the fact that some people mention very generic "a nigger" comments and a plural form "we don't like niggers" might suggest they didn't know or recall him. Seems to me like they just concentrated on the obvious trait of him being black, without any references to his past, him being an athlete etc. Also they didn't seem to address Shoels directly (something to the extent of "So how ado you feel now fucker?!")

Of course this is debatable, another interpretation can be that they knew him but chose to adress him just as "nigger" becuas ethey felt its more dismissive and offensive that way.

I dunno, I think Eric in particular was the kind of person who was a "collector" of past injuries, vengefull, had a memory like an elephant and I think he would relaly jump at the occasion to really torture, torment and abuse somene who had "wronged him" in the past if he came upon such a person during the shooting.

Then again, by the time Eric got to their table, he had already broken his nose and by all accounts he was dizzy and still putting himself togeather.

So its hardly conclusive, but I'm still leaning twoards the "They probably didn't relaly know him that well" scenario. I think he simply had teh misfortune of sticking out because he was the lone black kid in the library. I'm not even sure it was as much racism as the fact that he drew attention simply by sticking out of the crowd.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

However, the "unreliable witness" idea can be attached to any witness. That is why "attacking the man" rather than the argument is a logical fallacy.

Agreed, nbut I'm not making an ad hominem argument here, as I'm not attacking them man in general or his traits, or beliefs unrelated to CHS shooting. If I said: "Of Isaiah's dad is unreliable because he was convicted of helping a robbery years ago" that would be indeed an ad hominem argument.

But I'm not making such an argument.
Instead, I specifically mention their views about the shooting being a coverup and their statements that Eric and Dylan did not commit suicide. Given the information we have (ballistiocs and whatnot), I find the Shoels stance to be highly dubious and unsubstantiated. Thus, if their statements about the suicides and the government role in CHS are so out of touch with reality, then it it logical to feel suspicious about their other statements regarding the shooting. That's it.

Sabratha wrote:

Well, this can be interpreted either way.

Yes, you're right about the witness testimony. It is ambiguous.  

Sabratha wrote:

I dunno, I think Eric in particular was the kind of person who was a "collector" of past injuries, vengefull, had a memory like an elephant and I think he would relaly jump at the occasion to really torture, torment and abuse somene who had "wronged him" in the past if he came upon such a person during the shooting.  

Then again, by the time Eric got to their table, he had already broken his nose and by all accounts he was dizzy and still putting himself togeather.

Good points. I think it's worth mentioning that Dylan did try to pull Isaiah out from under the table and that is the only person they tried to do that to. He's lucky he resisted and Eric shot him with the shotgun or he might have been tortured further. According to Krabbe and other sources Eric seemed particularly concerned to know he had actually killed Isaiah and proud to have done so.

Sabratha wrote:

So its hardly conclusive, but I'm still leaning twoards the "They probably didn't relaly know him that well" scenario. I think he simply had teh misfortune of sticking out because he was the lone black kid in the library. I'm not even sure it was as much racism as the fact that he drew attention simply by sticking out of the crowd.

Here we disagree. I think the boys knew him and they recognized the usual seating arrangements in the library in general terms: jocks here, popular girls there, etc... If the witness testimony was all we had I'd probably lean toward your position. As it is I lean slightly toward "they knew him." But I can totally see your point.

Sabratha wrote:

Instead, I specifically mention their views about the shooting being a coverup and their statements that Eric and Dylan did not commit suicide. Given the information we have (ballistiocs and whatnot), I find the Shoels stance to be highly dubious and unsubstantiated. Thus, if their statements about the suicides and the government role in CHS are so out of touch with reality, then it it logical to feel suspicious about their other statements regarding the shooting. That's it.

Right you are. I think I was just getting a bit testy because we were arguing across multiple threads. Typing too fast for my own good. I agree with your opinion of the Shoels' conspiracy theories. I think we have every right to question their validity as witnesses. So, I happily retract my comments on that. Thanks for making your position more clear for me.

No probs, there's some people in the story I consider more reliable than others, but that's becaus ef their own actions or words.

I consider John Savage and Amanda very reliable, because their story adds up with the evidence and they haven't changed their story dramaticlaly over the years.
In comparison, I consider Richard for example to be less reliable, as he changes his story and the various versions he told are not mutually compartible. Shels in general, they made a lot of questionable or dubious statements on teh shooting and I started to take anything they say with a healthy dose of skeptycism.

Back to the main issue of this thread - I think if anythign was specificlaly targeted and anythign mroe than a random target, it was Isaiah. Though I think its more probable because he was black rather than because he was an ex athlete or becuase E&D knew him and had some perosnal gripes with him.

Sabratha wrote:

Back to the main issue of this thread - I think if anythign was specificlaly targeted and anythign mroe than a random target, it was Isaiah. Though I think its more probable because he was black rather than because he was an ex athlete or becuase E&D knew him and had some perosnal gripes with him.

I can agree with that.

Another point: when Evan Todd spoke to Dylan he said "I never had any problems with you guys. Never had them and won't get them either." Or something to that effect. He obviously recognized them. His comments about them deserving to be bullied and ridiculed also suggest that he knew them before NBK. There is an interview with the jocks in Lost Boys @ 33;26 which proves that the jocks knew who they were. It also shows clearly that they were considered to be outcasts and losers. The jocks are openly derisive about them even after the shooting.



I think the boys knew most of the kids in the school at a superficial level. I also think they were experts at picking out what "type" of kid they were dealing with on sight. I think that was probably true for most of the kids at CHS as it is also true for most of us when we encounter people in the world and particularly in a setting we frequent and have invested with emotional and psychological significance. I think they recognized most of the people in the library, personally. I think that is why they targeted the library w/ the bombs in the 1st place (along with the commons) and why they marched up there whooping and laughing after the bombs failed. They knew they'd find jocks, popular "bitches," and maybe even Peggy Dodd and Richard Long when they got there. They could've went anywhere, but they went to the library. The library was in fact the main center of bloodshed.

I think Todd knowing E&D at leats in passing, but not the otehr way around si simply ebcause E&D had a much larger public profile by then in comparison with Todd. People in trenchcoats were visible and stood out of the masses, that's one thing. Second they were seniors and we all know TCM and associates had already had wild stories told about them before the shooting (some they likley propagated themselves).

People also forget how in fact had Eric in particular had a large profile, probably larger than an average CHS student - for example he had a large photo in the 1998 yearbook, despite not being a senior. The kids who had these were a limited number.