Eric killed Dylan: Randy Brown's theory.

So, as many of you know, Randy did reddit's AMA to promote his book about Columbine, and probably the most controversial theory from the book and AMA is his theory that Eric killed Dylan.
I think i never ever heard this theory before, and just want to ask - is it possible there is any truth to it?
If so, why would Eric kill Dylan? Why would police, experts, even Dylan's parents would cover the fact that Dylan was killed?

I think the pure fact of Eric dying before Dylan disputed this theory. Also tell me if im wrong here but I’m sure there were witness reports or somehow however they found that out, that there was a Molotov lit by Dylan on a table nearby AFTER Eric was already dead. Idk I always perceived it as Eric dying before Dylan, so personally I’d say there’s no truth to it.
( not to mention I can’t see this happening, because I don’t see why Eric would do that)

Eric died before Dylan. The theory is nothing more than an attempt at attention grabbing.

There are several reasons why this isn't possible. The most complete explanation I've seen has been this one; though the comment about the timing of the death photo I believe is incorrect as we have been discussing this in another thread.

Quote :

The major problem with this theory is that the positioning of the boys’ bodies at the crime scene makes murder appear to be a physical impossibility. As the death scene photos—which are readily available online—and the police report indicate, Eric’s body was found with his lower back against a bookshelf and his legs fully extended. “The stains on the ceiling and shelves were consistent with HARRIS receiving the gunshot wound to his head while he was in a seated position.” “The left knee area of his pants was blood-soaked and a piece of skull was found to the north of his left calf.” The blood and skull fragment belonged to Klebold. In the photos, Dylan was lying on his back with his head in line with—and to the south of—Eric’s left knee. “His legs were bent at the hip with his knees towards the north and his lower legs pointing west.” The picture was taken after the coroner rolled Dylan onto his back “exposing right pants cargo pocket, which had not been searched due to the position of his body.” A member of the bomb squad found an additional eight explosive devices after the body was moved. Once on his back, Klebold’s right arm was extended along his right side and his left arm lay across his stomach. Description of the blood patterns noted on Dylan indicated that his body had initially been in another position before he came to rest on his back.

“A pool of blood on the carpet was to the north, east and south of Klebold’s ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) head, as well as to the west under his left shoulder. There was a bloodstain area on the back of his left arm above the elbow that was not consistent with being formed with the arm in the position found. In addition, some of the blood flows on the face were also formed with the head in a position other than as found. These flows were consistent with KLEBOLD’s head resting on the right side of the face to allow the blood flow on the left side out of the wound. There were bloodstains on his right bicep and left center portion of his neck. The underside of the bill of the ball cap to the north of KLEBOLD appeared to be blood-soaked. This cap was in close proximity to the bloodstained area of the left knee of the pants worn by HARRIS.”

These details indicate that after the shot to his head, Dylan fell onto his right side. His head landed on Eric’s left knee and the impact of the fall knocked off his hat and jarred loose a piece of his skull. The hat came to rest just south of Harris’s knee—the skull fragment just to the north. Dylan’s autopsy revealed that he aspirated blood into his lungs, signifying that he was still breathing for at least a short time after the bullet penetrated his skull. According to the coroner, Dylan “could have been capable of involuntary movement,” just prior to his death. In order for him to shoot Klebold and have Dylan fall on his right side with his head landing on Eric’s left knee, Harris would have had to have been seated during the murder with his legs fully extended. He then would have had to lean forward, stretch his arm past his own feet, and reach around to the opposite side of a squatting or kneeling Klebold. This would have, effectively, aimed the gun back towards Eric in order for him to be able to shoot Dylan from left to right. An alternate scenario would have Dylan looking towards Harris, with the rest of Klebold’s body facing to the north when he was shot. In addition, the evidence indicates that Eric’s gun did not deliver the fatal bullet to shoot Klebold. Dylan was killed by a 9 mm bullet. Eric’s Hi-Point 9 mm carbine rifle measured 31 inches in length and was far too long to be able to maneuver around Dylan’s head from Eric’s seated position. Furthermore, no blood was found in the barrel of this weapon and the only DNA on the gun belonged to Eric Harris. Klebold was killed by his TEC-DC9; blood was found “extending inside the barrel muzzle about 1 to ½ inches.” Therefore, even if the mechanics of such an awkward physical maneuver by Harris could be rationalized, it would indicate that Klebold willingly submitted to being executed as there would have been no way for Harris, in such an ungainly position, to forcibly hold Dylan down to accomplish the task. Moreover, Klebold would have had to have given Eric his own gun to do the job.

The conspiracy is fueled by the question of why, if Dylan’s entrance wound was to the left temple, the gun would have been found in his right hand. This discrepancy is difficult to see in the available crime scene photos in which the TEC-DC9 is not readily visible, but the strap connecting the gun to Klebold’s chest holster lays atop his right forearm and alongside his right hand. The position of Dylan’s fingers does not suggest that he was actively holding the gun at the moment of death, but it is assumed that the TEC-DC9 lays beneath his hand as described in the police report. Several possible scenarios for the outcome of this positioning may be postulated. While none can be proven, any of them are more physically plausible than the one in which Harris shoots Klebold. It is speculated that Dylan shot himself in the left side of the head while holding the gun in his left hand. After the shot, Klebold fell onto his right side. It would then make sense that the gun, which was attached to his chest via a strap, was dropped from his left hand and fell to Klebold’s right when he went to the floor. The weapon, which measured 12.5 inches and when carrying a loaded magazine weighed about 4.5 pounds,588 ended up beneath Dylan when he went down. In this way, Dylan came to rest with both his right hand and his right leg over the top of the gun. Only a cadaveric spasm at the moment of death would have enabled Klebold to retain his grip on the weapon after a shot to the head and a fall to the floor. No such spasm was indicated on autopsy.

mrbetch wrote:

Also tell me if im wrong here but I’m sure there were witness reports or somehow however they found that out, that there was a Molotov lit by Dylan on a table nearby AFTER Eric was already dead.

This is a myth that has been propagated by those who like to claim that Dylan ritually removed his jewelry (he did not) and cried over Eric's body (unlikely) before screwing up the courage to shoot himself. The evidence shows that either boy could have lit that final Molotov.
From the Columbine Report, pg. 8938

Quote :

The fuse/wick on a Molotov cocktail type device is not designed to penetrate the container and ignite the contents. It is designed to ignite the product in its vapor form once dispersed. A container simply placed in a stationary location may not ignite at all due to the fuse burning itself out. It is reasonable for the fuse device to apply enough heat to the exterior of the container and cause it to fracture in that location. This condition is consistent with the fuel pattern and lack of heavy fire damage observed on the top of the table [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Threaded pieces of the top of the glass bottle used to contain the fuel were found on the tabletop. The threaded pieces of glass were heavily charred indicating a pro-longed exposure to fire. The fuel pattern on the table was consistent with the determined bottle location. near the south edge. The glass and fuel directional patterns were inconsistent with a high-pressure content release, and no evidence that the bottle was thrown against the table was found.

This indicates that the final Molotov wasn't thrown and that it didn't immediately explode but instead, was placed upon the tabletop and the wick burned for a while before breaking the top part of the bottle, allowing contents to leak out onto the table top and over Eric's tissue, presumably brain matter. The fact that this tissue was under the Molotov mixture doesn't mean that Dylan lit the Molotov after Eric died. Eric could have just as easily lit it, killed himself with Dylan following shortly after. The Molotov had to burn for a bit before the top of the bottle broke, so either boy could have lit it.

From the National Enquirer article which released the death photos of Eric/Dylan:

National Enquirer June 4 2002 (**this was before the release of Dylan's autopsy):

Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky believed that Eric shot Dylan.

"The first thing that struck me when I looked at the photos is that Harris' left foot is on top of Klebold's right elbow. It would seem that Klebold died first."

He mentions the 3 guns lying on the right side of his body casting doubt that he could have shot himself in the left side of his head.

He concluded that Klebold's death was not from a typical suicide wound, a so-called contact wound in which the weapon is touching the skin when fired. "A contact wound is very characteristic. The muzzle is up against the skin, lead rubs off the weapon, gunshot residue results." The gun that killed Klebold was not directly up against his skin. "It was anywhere from a fraction of an inch to 18 inches away."

And he said the pattern of blood on Klebold's face indicates he had his head down when a single bullet entered the left side of his head. "If his head was erect, gravity would have pulled the blood downward, but the pattern is almost linear coming across the face under the nose and especially under his mouth."


**Klebold's Autopsy (released after this magazine article) did show powder/soot in the left side of his head.

Ivan wrote:

Eric died before Dylan. The theory is nothing more than an attempt at attention grabbing.

Yep, probably to reassure himself or distance himself from his childish temper tantrum against me yesterday, harassing me until I responded to him, insulting me instead of responding to anything I mentioned and then getting mods to delete all my posts while leaving his up.

That's why he made a whole new account saying he was locked out of the old one that he had just been responding to me with hours before, then begged the mods to do an AMA with him with the new name. He has to make sure he's the expert celebrity to his masses after all.

Ivan wrote:

Eric died before Dylan. The theory is nothing more than an attempt at attention grabbing.

His AMA was really disappointing. This man has nothing to say, despite his "decades of research". Only wild ridiculous conspiracy theories.

sororityalpha wrote:

From the National Enquirer article which released the death photos of Eric/Dylan:

National Enquirer June 4 2002 (**this was before the release of Dylan's autopsy):

Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky believed that Eric shot Dylan.

"The first thing that struck me when I looked at the photos is that Harris' left foot is on top of Klebold's right elbow. It would seem that Klebold died first."

He mentions the 3 guns lying on the right side of his body casting doubt that he could have shot himself in the left side of his head.

He concluded that Klebold's death was not from a typical suicide wound, a so-called contact wound in which the weapon is touching the skin when fired. "A contact wound is very characteristic. The muzzle is up against the skin, lead rubs off the weapon, gunshot residue results." The gun that killed Klebold was not directly up against his skin. "It was anywhere from a fraction of an inch to 18 inches away."

And he said the pattern of blood on Klebold's face indicates he had his head down when a single bullet entered the left side of his head. "If his head was erect, gravity would have pulled the blood downward, but the pattern is almost linear coming across the face under the nose and especially under his mouth."


**Klebold's Autopsy (released after this magazine article) did show powder/soot in the left side of his head.

Who is this doctor? Was he working on the case or just NE's expert?
I read that some people in Littleton, including Eric and Dylan's friends, believed Eric might have killed Dylan, but it doesn't seem like this theory was supported by law enforcement or experts or researchers.

It was just NE's expert examining the photos.

Quote :

I have the photos, the drawings from the crime scene, and I have tried to replicate his suicide. It cannot be done with the weapon in his right hand. And the weapon is clearly grasped tightly in his right hand.

Pretty funny. Dylan was left handed. It is not 'clearly grasped tightly'. Also, look at the diagrams. The TEC-9 is facing the other way actually. In other words Dylan shot himself with the TEC-9 upside down. But then he didn't, because Eric did and staged it this way I guess, so why do we care about it?

cakeman wrote:

It was just NE's expert examining the photos.

Quote :

I have the photos, the drawings from the crime scene, and I have tried to replicate his suicide. It cannot be done with the weapon in his right hand. And the weapon is clearly grasped tightly in his right hand.

Pretty funny. Dylan was left handed. It is not 'clearly grasped tightly'. Also, look at the diagrams. The TEC-9 is facing the other way actually. In other words Dylan shot himself with the TEC-9 upside down. But then he didn't, because Eric did and staged it this way I guess, so why do we care about it?

He claims he had more pictures. But still, his explanation is basically "because i said so".

Ligeya wrote:

cakeman wrote:

It was just NE's expert examining the photos.

Quote :

I have the photos, the drawings from the crime scene, and I have tried to replicate his suicide. It cannot be done with the weapon in his right hand. And the weapon is clearly grasped tightly in his right hand.

Pretty funny. Dylan was left handed. It is not 'clearly grasped tightly'. Also, look at the diagrams. The TEC-9 is facing the other way actually. In other words Dylan shot himself with the TEC-9 upside down. But then he didn't, because Eric did and staged it this way I guess, so why do we care about it?

He claims he had more pictures. But still, his explanation is basically "because i said so".

Not sure more would help. Look up the diagrams to see what I mean (don't think I'm allowed to post them). If Dylan's hand is firmly grasping the gun (and it isn't), then it's not on the handle.

And then he also claims Eric staged the scene, so I'm not sure why whether he's grasping the gun or not matters.

And it took Randy one day to turn his reddit presence into a mess. People are arguing with him about this theory, he basically says "you don't know shit, i am the expert", and accuses them of being Eric's worshippers.
And of course, people unfortunately use Brooks' tumblr story against Randy.

Ligeya wrote:

And it took Randy one day to turn his reddit presence into a mess. People are arguing with him about this theory, he basically says "you don't know shit, i am the expert", and accuses them of being Eric's worshippers.
And of course, people unfortunately use Brooks' tumblr story against Randy.

Which tumblr story is this? The one where Brooks behaves inappropriately towards certain users?

Randy has some interesting ideas but his AMA seems to confirm what many people have said about him: he is stubborn, a conspiracist, and turns towards insulting when you disagree with him. He flatly states in his AMA and he didn't know Eric well, did not know the Harrises well, and had no conversations with Eric's parents in the aftermath but he is somehow able to definitively and factually state that Wayne Harris is a terrible father. He dismisses the possibile influences of mental health. He calls Sue Klebold a liar and implies he knew Dylan far better than his own mother. This entire episode of Randy's hypothesis that Eric killed Dylan (the objective truth no less, contrary to all available evidence nevermind that he supposedly has evidence to prove his point but will not share; we must take him at his word) succinctly characterizes Randy's entire behavior, unfortunately. You either agree with him or you're a worshiper of school shooters.

The AMA itself is disappointing because many of his answers are "its in the book." Brooks' AMA was far more interesting and revealed new information that was heretofore new at the time.

I think the most discouraging thing in all of this are those commenting, "Well, Randy's closer to the investigation than the rest of us so if he says it, it must be true."

Sigh. So many of us have spent so much time and energy trying to combat the myths, conspiracies, and just plain ass-backwards information out there about Columbine and now we have a whole new bunch of crap to disprove over and over again.
I am disheartened.

qwertyu wrote:

The AMA itself is disappointing because many of his answers are "its in the book." Brooks' AMA was far more interesting and revealed new information that was heretofore new at the time.

Brooks' AMA was pretty good. I didn't feel like it was much more information than what he wrote in his book, but still good. Too bad he deleted it, but it's still out there if you know where to look.

Sounds like the AMA was a mess.

Cyrinus wrote:

Sounds like the AMA was a mess.

Quite a pity nobody more credible than the Brown family have come forth recently.

The more I read of his argument, the more irritated I get.
Dylan was sitting in the chair when Eric shot him?!

There is not just a splash of Dylan's blood on Eric's pant leg, his pants just below the knee are saturated with it. Dylan's hat is resting against Eric's leg. And there is that little spatter of blood on the opposite side of Eric's' leg with the piece of Dylan's skull. How does he explain this if Eric shot Dylan?
For this to happen, Eric would have had to shoot him and then first kneel in Dylan's blood long enough to soak his pants and then sit down, stretch his legs out and position his leg perfectly between the skull piece and the hat. And then he would have had to maintain this position AFTER he shot himself.
It defies all logic. Yet all he can say is, the gun was in his right hand. That's his proof. And people are taking his word for it.

qwertyu wrote:

Ligeya wrote:

And it took Randy one day to turn his reddit presence into a mess. People are arguing with him about this theory, he basically says "you don't know shit, i am the expert", and accuses them of being Eric's worshippers.
And of course, people unfortunately use Brooks' tumblr story against Randy.

Which tumblr story is this? The one where Brooks behaves inappropriately towards certain users?

Randy has some interesting ideas but his AMA seems to confirm what many people have said about him: he is stubborn, a conspiracist, and turns towards insulting when you disagree with him. He flatly states in his AMA and he didn't know Eric well, did not know the Harrises well, and had no conversations with Eric's parents in the aftermath but he is somehow able to definitively and factually state that Wayne Harris is a terrible father. He dismisses the possibile influences of mental health. He calls Sue Klebold a liar and implies he knew Dylan far better than his own mother. This entire episode of Randy's hypothesis that Eric killed Dylan (the objective truth no less, contrary to all available evidence nevermind that he supposedly has evidence to prove his point but will not share; we must take him at his word) succinctly characterizes Randy's entire behavior, unfortunately. You either agree with him or you're a worshiper of school shooters.

The AMA itself is disappointing because many of his answers are "its in the book." Brooks' AMA was far more interesting and revealed new information that was heretofore new at the time.

Yes, that's the tumblr story. Comments are deleted now. I think it was a low blow, tbh.
Randy is a bully. I felt that way after reading his book, and feel it even more now. I think he uses this outrageous theory of Eric killing Dylan to sell his book.

thelmar wrote:

The more I read of his argument, the more irritated I get.
Dylan was sitting in the chair when Eric shot him?!

There is not just a splash of Dylan's blood on Eric's pant leg, his pants just below the knee are saturated with it. Dylan's hat is resting against Eric's leg. And there is that little spatter of blood on the opposite side of Eric's' leg with the piece of Dylan's skull. How does he explain this if Eric shot Dylan?
For this to happen, Eric would have had to shoot him and then first kneel in Dylan's blood long enough to soak his pants and then sit down, stretch his legs out and position his leg perfectly between the skull piece and the hat. And then he would have had to maintain this position AFTER he shot himself.
It defies all logic. Yet all he can say is, the gun was in his right hand. That's his proof. And people are taking his word for it.

This whole idea of Dylan sitting in the chair and Eric shooting him is just... WOT? He thinks people are idiots? People are blind? It's almost offensive.
And his arrogance. He claims it's obvious from the pictures and it's a "irrefutable fact". Even if it's true that he has more pictures that was leaked to the public, other people still saw that pictures as well. People from police, FBI, families of killed children, possibly survivors, possibly Klebolds. I am pretty sure Langman and Fuselier saw those. And besides this National Enquirer expert, Randy is a first person in 21 year to claim Eric killed Dylan. If that's so obvious, if it's such a fact, why nobody else saw it?

I am not completely sure HOW Randy has all of this evidence... his sons went to CHS yes and they were worried about Eric beforehand, but he and his family are laymen... how do they have any more right to evidence than anyone else? I feel like Randy is being a bit too "I know something you don't know, i have info but I will NOT share it with you. I just know the truth" I didn't like it in 7th grade and I don't like it now.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I am not completely sure HOW Randy has all of this evidence... his sons went to CHS yes and they were worried about Eric beforehand, but he and his family are laymen... how do they have any more right to evidence than anyone else? I feel like Randy is being a bit too "I know something you don't know, i have info but I will NOT share it with you. I just know the truth" I didn't like it in 7th grade and I don't like it now.

He claimed in his book some anonymous source, i think from Law enforcement, gave it to him. Pictures from library, 911 library call in full. I don't remember details. I didn't really like his book.

I was shocked when he listed possibilities, including the bullet bouncing off the walls to hit Dylan on his left side, but not including that Dylan shot himself with his left hand and then fell on the gun.

Also lol at the thread calling Brooks a liar and nobody mentioning Nate saying it too, or Brooks admitting in his book that he would lie about his fast ball and such.

A vain hope that this shows the poverty in thinking "If Cullen is wrong, then the Browns are right" and has people use their own brain rather than parrot secondary sources coping with tragedy and internet/media rumor. It's not just Randy; practically all the books are like this. Say that the bodies were kicked around by SWAT before the photos, that's just as false, but repeated constantly in his threads. A part of me is glad his error is so obvious.

If Randy were willing to support his claim or even acknowledge that his position is dubious due to an unwillingness to produce evidence, I'd listen more even though I disagree. But that he asks readers to take him on faith alone is terrible academic rigour and honestly casts doubt on everything he says. I bought his book (despite some of the bad reviews it has received) and had planned to read it eventually but now I have to wonder if it is even worth it.

qwertyu wrote:

If Randy were willing to support his claim or even acknowledge that his position is dubious due to an unwillingness to produce evidence, I'd listen more even though I disagree. But that he asks readers to take him on faith alone is terrible academic rigour and honestly casts doubt on everything he says. I bought his book (despite some of the bad reviews it has received) and had planned to read it eventually but now I have to wonder if it is even worth it.

I doubt Randy has anything valuable to add. Eric and Dylan weren't close friends with his son come 4/20 and he uses the tragedy to bolster his media attention.

I would try reselling that book if I were you, it'd be filled with lies from a narcissistic, decrepit old man.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I am not completely sure HOW Randy has all of this evidence...  his sons went to CHS yes and they were worried about Eric beforehand, but he and his family are laymen... how do they have any more right to evidence than anyone else?  I feel like Randy is being a bit too "I know something you don't know, i have info but I will NOT share it with you. I just know the truth" I didn't like it in 7th grade and I don't like it now.

I completely agree. I've always felt this way. There is no way that Randy ever needed access to some of the things he has seen.

Think I would just ask him if at least according to the diagram, Dylan isn't gripping anything.

So, speaking of Randy.

Regardless of whether you think that Randy is on to something with his bullying/humiliation, hyper-vigilance and violentization theories, in figuring out why Eric and Dylan did what they did, you have to give the man some credit for his dedication and willingness to meticulously research this story.

He was on the Columbine Community Task Force, he saw the Basement Tapes, he has seen the crime scene photos and heard the full 911 library tape. He's been at this for over 20 years; that does say something.

Again, this is not an endorsement of Randy or his interpretation, however I think we should respect the blood, sweat and tears he's put in for this research.

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

So, speaking of Randy.

Regardless of whether you think that Randy is on to something with his bullying/humiliation, hyper-vigilance and violentization theories, in figuring out why Eric and Dylan did what they did, you have to give the man some credit for his dedication and willingness to meticulously research this story.

He was on the Columbine Community Task Force, he saw the Basement Tapes, he has seen the crime scene photos and heard the full 911 library tape. He's been at this for over 20 years; that does say something.

Again, this is not an endorsement of Randy or his interpretation, however I think we should respect the blood, sweat and tears he's put in for this research.

He barged his way in to see the Basement Tapes. He bullies people with opposing theories. He offers nothing but nonsensical misinformation as fact. The fact he's been "at this for 20 years" says more about his narcissistic ego and need for attention. Before Columbine nobody knew who he was - now anybody interested in the case does. Before Columbine he couldn't write a book and make money off it - now he can afford to make such risks.

Stop making Randy out to be a hero, he's a joke with a lot of skeletons in his closet I'm sure.

Again, I'm not making Randy a "hero" any way whatsoever.

That said, Randy, like us on this forum, is fascinated by the Columbine tragedy and would like to understand the event further. Again, not too far from the purpose of this forum.

I'd wager that if Randy reached out, 99% of this forum would happily sit down and speak with Randy to see what they could, or could not, learn from him.

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

Again, I'm not making Randy a "hero" any way whatsoever.

That said, Randy, like us on this forum, is fascinated by the Columbine tragedy and would like to understand the event further. Again, not too far from the purpose of this forum.

I'd wager that if Randy reached out, 99% of this forum would happily sit down and speak with Randy to see what they could, or could not, learn from him.

He's fascinated by the adoration and attention he's received in response to a tragedy his son (who also has various skeletons in his closet) narrowly avoided.

His motives, especially the way he acted during the AMA are very transparent.

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

So, speaking of Randy.

Regardless of whether you think that Randy is on to something with his bullying/humiliation, hyper-vigilance and violentization theories, in figuring out why Eric and Dylan did what they did, you have to give the man some credit for his dedication and willingness to meticulously research this story.

He was on the Columbine Community Task Force, he saw the Basement Tapes, he has seen the crime scene photos and heard the full 911 library tape. He's been at this for over 20 years; that does say something.

Again, this is not an endorsement of Randy or his interpretation, however I think we should respect the blood, sweat and tears he's put in for this research.

Yeah it's cool he has a lot of info, but how meticulous he is is what's being called into question in this thread in the first place, on the issue of whether Eric killed Dylan. Don't even see anything about whether his bullying theory is correct, and frankly that will be quite popular whether correct or not.

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

So, speaking of Randy.

Regardless of whether you think that Randy is on to something with his bullying/humiliation, hyper-vigilance and violentization theories, in figuring out why Eric and Dylan did what they did, you have to give the man some credit for his dedication and willingness to meticulously research this story.

He was on the Columbine Community Task Force, he saw the Basement Tapes, he has seen the crime scene photos and heard the full 911 library tape. He's been at this for over 20 years; that does say something.

Again, this is not an endorsement of Randy or his interpretation, however I think we should respect the blood, sweat and tears he's put in for this research.

The fact that he was doing it for so long doesn't mean he's actually good at it. Maybe the opposite.
I read his book as soon as it came out, and it was painfully disappointing reading. One moment that speaks a lot about his level of research: he didnt read Dylan's diary/writing until May 2020. And he read it after some girl wrote him to ask about Dylan's writings. And it's Dylan, you'd think he was like a second son to Randy from what he wrote in his book and AMA.
I try to remember some moments in this giant, poorly edited book that were unique or new information, and it's really hard. There are ridiculous theories like Eric killing Dylan or Wayne Harris' friend in the police. Couple of anecdotal stories about Dylan (that frankly make him look like a dick). Very negative things about Sue Klebold. And ENDLESS preaching. Almost unbearable. It's actually upsetting how little he did with all the information he was given.

cakeman wrote:

Say that the bodies were kicked around by SWAT before the photos, that's just as false, but repeated constantly in his threads. A part of me is glad his error is so obvious.

I hope that wasn't directed towards our conversation earlier

thelmar wrote:

There are several reasons why this isn't possible. The most complete explanation I've seen has been this one; though the comment about the timing of the death photo I believe is incorrect as we have been discussing this in another thread.

Quote :

The major problem with this theory is that the positioning of the boys’ bodies at the crime scene makes murder appear to be a physical impossibility. As the death scene photos—which are readily available online—and the police report indicate, Eric’s body was found with his lower back against a bookshelf and his legs fully extended. “The stains on the ceiling and shelves were consistent with HARRIS receiving the gunshot wound to his head while he was in a seated position.” “The left knee area of his pants was blood-soaked and a piece of skull was found to the north of his left calf.” The blood and skull fragment belonged to Klebold. In the photos, Dylan was lying on his back with his head in line with—and to the south of—Eric’s left knee. “His legs were bent at the hip with his knees towards the north and his lower legs pointing west.” The picture was taken after the coroner rolled Dylan onto his back “exposing right pants cargo pocket, which had not been searched due to the position of his body.” A member of the bomb squad found an additional eight explosive devices after the body was moved. Once on his back, Klebold’s right arm was extended along his right side and his left arm lay across his stomach. Description of the blood patterns noted on Dylan indicated that his body had initially been in another position before he came to rest on his back.

“A pool of blood on the carpet was to the north, east and south of Klebold’s ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) head, as well as to the west under his left shoulder. There was a bloodstain area on the back of his left arm above the elbow that was not consistent with being formed with the arm in the position found. In addition, some of the blood flows on the face were also formed with the head in a position other than as found. These flows were consistent with KLEBOLD’s head resting on the right side of the face to allow the blood flow on the left side out of the wound. There were bloodstains on his right bicep and left center portion of his neck. The underside of the bill of the ball cap to the north of KLEBOLD appeared to be blood-soaked. This cap was in close proximity to the bloodstained area of the left knee of the pants worn by HARRIS.”

These details indicate that after the shot to his head, Dylan fell onto his right side. His head landed on Eric’s left knee and the impact of the fall knocked off his hat and jarred loose a piece of his skull. The hat came to rest just south of Harris’s knee—the skull fragment just to the north. Dylan’s autopsy revealed that he aspirated blood into his lungs, signifying that he was still breathing for at least a short time after the bullet penetrated his skull. According to the coroner, Dylan “could have been capable of involuntary movement,” just prior to his death. In order for him to shoot Klebold and have Dylan fall on his right side with his head landing on Eric’s left knee, Harris would have had to have been seated during the murder with his legs fully extended. He then would have had to lean forward, stretch his arm past his own feet, and reach around to the opposite side of a squatting or kneeling Klebold. This would have, effectively, aimed the gun back towards Eric in order for him to be able to shoot Dylan from left to right. An alternate scenario would have Dylan looking towards Harris, with the rest of Klebold’s body facing to the north when he was shot. In addition, the evidence indicates that Eric’s gun did not deliver the fatal bullet to shoot Klebold. Dylan was killed by a 9 mm bullet. Eric’s Hi-Point 9 mm carbine rifle measured 31 inches in length and was far too long to be able to maneuver around Dylan’s head from Eric’s seated position. Furthermore, no blood was found in the barrel of this weapon and the only DNA on the gun belonged to Eric Harris. Klebold was killed by his TEC-DC9; blood was found “extending inside the barrel muzzle about 1 to ½ inches.” Therefore, even if the mechanics of such an awkward physical maneuver by Harris could be rationalized, it would indicate that Klebold willingly submitted to being executed as there would have been no way for Harris, in such an ungainly position, to forcibly hold Dylan down to accomplish the task. Moreover, Klebold would have had to have given Eric his own gun to do the job.

The conspiracy is fueled by the question of why, if Dylan’s entrance wound was to the left temple, the gun would have been found in his right hand. This discrepancy is difficult to see in the available crime scene photos in which the TEC-DC9 is not readily visible, but the strap connecting the gun to Klebold’s chest holster lays atop his right forearm and alongside his right hand. The position of Dylan’s fingers does not suggest that he was actively holding the gun at the moment of death, but it is assumed that the TEC-DC9 lays beneath his hand as described in the police report. Several possible scenarios for the outcome of this positioning may be postulated. While none can be proven, any of them are more physically plausible than the one in which Harris shoots Klebold. It is speculated that Dylan shot himself in the left side of the head while holding the gun in his left hand. After the shot, Klebold fell onto his right side. It would then make sense that the gun, which was attached to his chest via a strap, was dropped from his left hand and fell to Klebold’s right when he went to the floor. The weapon, which measured 12.5 inches and when carrying a loaded magazine weighed about 4.5 pounds,588 ended up beneath Dylan when he went down. In this way, Dylan came to rest with both his right hand and his right leg over the top of the gun. Only a cadaveric spasm at the moment of death would have enabled Klebold to retain his grip on the weapon after a shot to the head and a fall to the floor. No such spasm was indicated on autopsy.

I want to give you a massive round of applause for this! But Randy is so far down the conspiracy hole at this point, I think he's just cherry picking what evidence he believes. Anything that doesn't fit his narrative is just JeffCo 'covering it up'. I'm sure he's read that at some point and complained that they're falsifying more testimony to make them. I don't know. Look good? There's no reasoning with him, he's put in his time and knows all

Ligeya wrote:

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

So, speaking of Randy.

Regardless of whether you think that Randy is on to something with his bullying/humiliation, hyper-vigilance and violentization theories, in figuring out why Eric and Dylan did what they did, you have to give the man some credit for his dedication and willingness to meticulously research this story.

He was on the Columbine Community Task Force, he saw the Basement Tapes, he has seen the crime scene photos and heard the full 911 library tape. He's been at this for over 20 years; that does say something.

Again, this is not an endorsement of Randy or his interpretation, however I think we should respect the blood, sweat and tears he's put in for this research.

The fact that he was doing it for so long doesn't mean he's actually good at it. Maybe the opposite.
I read his book as soon as it came out, and it was painfully disappointing reading. One moment that speaks a lot about his level of research: he didnt read Dylan's diary/writing until May 2020. And he read it after some girl wrote him to ask about Dylan's writings. And it's Dylan, you'd think he was like a second son to Randy from what he wrote in his book and AMA.
I try to remember some moments in this giant, poorly edited book that were unique or new information, and it's really hard. There are ridiculous theories like Eric killing Dylan or Wayne Harris' friend in the police. Couple of anecdotal stories about Dylan (that frankly make him look like a dick). Very negative things about Sue Klebold. And ENDLESS preaching. Almost unbearable. It's actually upsetting how little he did with all the information he was given.

You nailed that one! I'm trying real REAL hard to finish reading it, but the way he denigrates Sue (how dare she stop being friends with Judy?! They were soulmates!) and all the woe is me, here's me on my pedestal, woe is me, more preachy crap, woe is me...... I've had to put it aside so many times that I've read three other books since starting his. I stupidly had high hopes for it but so far am nothing short of incredibly disappointed and really want a refund

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

I'd wager that if Randy reached out, 99% of this forum would happily sit down and speak with Randy to see what they could, or could not, learn from him.

I guess that makes me the 1% who wouldn't then. There's nothing worth learning from Randy that come from his own mouth because next to none of it will be true.

Bugg wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Say that the bodies were kicked around by SWAT before the photos, that's just as false, but repeated constantly in his threads. A part of me is glad his error is so obvious.

I hope that wasn't directed towards our conversation earlier

Nah, I at least tried to note "in his threads". Some of the people correcting Randy on reddit. Their good sense is no sooner extinguished by saying that the bodies were kicked around before the photos. And that is just an example, hence "say". It is my attempt to state: pick your favorite Columbine book and they will make an error as egregious as Randy here.  I just picked the most common error with the relevant scene of their suicides. For another ubiquitous example from another scene, that their cars were the place for shooting.

QuestionMark wrote:

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

I'd wager that if Randy reached out, 99% of this forum would happily sit down and speak with Randy to see what they could, or could not, learn from him.

I guess that makes me the 1% who wouldn't then. There's nothing worth learning from Randy that come from his own mouth because next to none of it will be true.

I wanted to ask him a couple of questions in reddit ama, but i thought it sounded too bitchy.
He wrote that he reported not only Eric to the police, but Dylan as well. I wanted to ask what for, and how the hell he didnt warn Sue Klebold, his wife's soulmate, that they reported her son to the police.

Also he talked a lot about basically living in fear because of Eric's threats, trembling every time they had to leave the house, so if it was so scary and real, how the hell did Randy managed to forget that his own son Aaron already reported Eric's website to the police? He literally said they forgot about it in his book.

But to be honest, i don't really want to know the answers. I think he just lying.

The girl in his book who contacted him about Dylan’s writings is me.

According to Randy, he had read both Eric’s and Dylan’s entries many, many times, but it had been quite some time since doing so. There was one specific line from two separate entries of Dylan’s “journal” that I wanted to point out to him. He claimed that the entires that I had- they came from acolumbinesite.com- were not authentic/written by Dylan himself. He sent me two screenshots of entries that were allegedly written by Dylan; I had never seen them in my 15+ years of research. They were extremely angry and sounded like Eric; it even looked much more similar to his handwriting than Dylan’s. They even had the Doom monster drawings on them.

He also claimed that both boys hacked CHS’s server the morning of April 20th and added messages. He says it’s mentioned in the 11k but I haven’t read it so I didn’t know the authenticity of that claim.

This is a dumb question, but what does AMA stand for?

Ligeya wrote:

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

So, speaking of Randy.

Regardless of whether you think that Randy is on to something with his bullying/humiliation, hyper-vigilance and violentization theories, in figuring out why Eric and Dylan did what they did, you have to give the man some credit for his dedication and willingness to meticulously research this story.

He was on the Columbine Community Task Force, he saw the Basement Tapes, he has seen the crime scene photos and heard the full 911 library tape. He's been at this for over 20 years; that does say something.

Again, this is not an endorsement of Randy or his interpretation, however I think we should respect the blood, sweat and tears he's put in for this research.

The fact that he was doing it for so long doesn't mean he's actually good at it. Maybe the opposite.
I read his book as soon as it came out, and it was painfully disappointing reading. One moment that speaks a lot about his level of research: he didnt read Dylan's diary/writing until May 2020. And he read it after some girl wrote him to ask about Dylan's writings. And it's Dylan, you'd think he was like a second son to Randy from what he wrote in his book and AMA.
I try to remember some moments in this giant, poorly edited book that were unique or new information, and it's really hard. There are ridiculous theories like Eric killing Dylan or Wayne Harris' friend in the police. Couple of anecdotal stories about Dylan (that frankly make him look like a dick). Very negative things about Sue Klebold. And ENDLESS preaching. Almost unbearable. It's actually upsetting how little he did with all the information he was given.

true_crime wrote:

The girl in his book who contacted him about Dylan’s writings is me.

According to Randy, he had read both Eric’s and Dylan’s entries many, many times, but it had been quite some time since doing so. There was one specific line from two separate entries of Dylan’s “journal” that I wanted to point out to him. He claimed that the entires that I had- they came from acolumbinesite.com- were not authentic/written by Dylan himself. He sent me two screenshots of entries that were allegedly written by Dylan; I had never seen them in my 15+ years of research. They were extremely angry and sounded like Eric; it even looked much more similar to his handwriting than Dylan’s. They even had the Doom monster drawings on them.

He also claimed that both boys hacked CHS’s server the morning of April 20th and added messages. He says it’s mentioned in the 11k but I haven’t read it so I didn’t know the authenticity of that claim.

This is a dumb question, but what does AMA stand for?

Very interesting.  Oddly, Randy comes across markedly oblivious to Dylan's "journal" as oppose to Eric's in his book - for some one that claims to have read both their entries "many, many times".   Do you still happen to have those screenshots he sent you and would you be open to sharing them?

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

Again, I'm not making Randy a "hero" any way whatsoever.

That said, Randy, like us on this forum, is fascinated by the Columbine tragedy and would like to understand the event further. Again, not too far from the purpose of this forum.

I'd wager that if Randy reached out, 99% of this forum would happily sit down and speak with Randy to see what they could, or could not, learn from him.

I know math is hard, I'm horrid at it. But if you've been reading the 5-6 current topics with constant posts, almost everyone has negative things to say about Randy.

The emperor's clothes are no longer visible, and out of all those active on this topic, the majority have realized all those fancy frocks, they've never existed.

true_crime wrote:

The girl in his book who contacted him about Dylan’s writings is me.

According to Randy, he had read both Eric’s and Dylan’s entries many, many times, but it had been quite some time since doing so. There was one specific line from two separate entries of Dylan’s “journal” that I wanted to point out to him. He claimed that the entires that I had- they came from acolumbinesite.com- were not authentic/written by Dylan himself. He sent me two screenshots of entries that were allegedly written by Dylan; I had never seen them in my 15+ years of research. They were extremely angry and sounded like Eric; it even looked much more similar to his handwriting than Dylan’s. They even had the Doom monster drawings on them.

He also claimed that both boys hacked CHS’s server the morning of April 20th and added messages. He says it’s mentioned in the 11k but I haven’t read it so I didn’t know the authenticity of that claim.

This is a dumb question, but what does AMA stand for?

Ligeya wrote:

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

So, speaking of Randy.

Regardless of whether you think that Randy is on to something with his bullying/humiliation, hyper-vigilance and violentization theories, in figuring out why Eric and Dylan did what they did, you have to give the man some credit for his dedication and willingness to meticulously research this story.

He was on the Columbine Community Task Force, he saw the Basement Tapes, he has seen the crime scene photos and heard the full 911 library tape. He's been at this for over 20 years; that does say something.

Again, this is not an endorsement of Randy or his interpretation, however I think we should respect the blood, sweat and tears he's put in for this research.

The fact that he was doing it for so long doesn't mean he's actually good at it. Maybe the opposite.
I read his book as soon as it came out, and it was painfully disappointing reading. One moment that speaks a lot about his level of research: he didnt read Dylan's diary/writing until May 2020. And he read it after some girl wrote him to ask about Dylan's writings. And it's Dylan, you'd think he was like a second son to Randy from what he wrote in his book and AMA.
I try to remember some moments in this giant, poorly edited book that were unique or new information, and it's really hard. There are ridiculous theories like Eric killing Dylan or Wayne Harris' friend in the police. Couple of anecdotal stories about Dylan (that frankly make him look like a dick). Very negative things about Sue Klebold. And ENDLESS preaching. Almost unbearable. It's actually upsetting how little he did with all the information he was given.

AMA means "Ask Me Anything"

true_crime wrote:

The girl in his book who contacted him about Dylan’s writings is me.

According to Randy, he had read both Eric’s and Dylan’s entries many, many times, but it had been quite some time since doing so. There was one specific line from two separate entries of Dylan’s “journal” that I wanted to point out to him. He claimed that the entires that I had- they came from acolumbinesite.com- were not authentic/written by Dylan himself. He sent me two screenshots of entries that were allegedly written by Dylan; I had never seen them in my 15+ years of research. They were extremely angry and sounded like Eric; it even looked much more similar to his handwriting than Dylan’s. They even had the Doom monster drawings on them.

He also claimed that both boys hacked CHS’s server the morning of April 20th and added messages. He says it’s mentioned in the 11k but I haven’t read it so I didn’t know the authenticity of that claim.

This is a dumb question, but what does AMA stand for?

Ligeya wrote:

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

So, speaking of Randy.

Regardless of whether you think that Randy is on to something with his bullying/humiliation, hyper-vigilance and violentization theories, in figuring out why Eric and Dylan did what they did, you have to give the man some credit for his dedication and willingness to meticulously research this story.

He was on the Columbine Community Task Force, he saw the Basement Tapes, he has seen the crime scene photos and heard the full 911 library tape. He's been at this for over 20 years; that does say something.

Again, this is not an endorsement of Randy or his interpretation, however I think we should respect the blood, sweat and tears he's put in for this research.

The fact that he was doing it for so long doesn't mean he's actually good at it. Maybe the opposite.
I read his book as soon as it came out, and it was painfully disappointing reading. One moment that speaks a lot about his level of research: he didnt read Dylan's diary/writing until May 2020. And he read it after some girl wrote him to ask about Dylan's writings. And it's Dylan, you'd think he was like a second son to Randy from what he wrote in his book and AMA.
I try to remember some moments in this giant, poorly edited book that were unique or new information, and it's really hard. There are ridiculous theories like Eric killing Dylan or Wayne Harris' friend in the police. Couple of anecdotal stories about Dylan (that frankly make him look like a dick). Very negative things about Sue Klebold. And ENDLESS preaching. Almost unbearable. It's actually upsetting how little he did with all the information he was given.

Oh, small world. Thank you for the information. I am glad he actually read Dylan's writing before, but it's still strange how he noticed line about Dylan being caught for crimes only in 2020 and interpeted it in the weirdest way possible. But to be honest, i was angry and exhausted by the end of this book, so maybe i was too negative.

What did you wanted to ask him about? Did you believe his story entries that were allegedly written by Dylan?

milennialrebelette wrote:

dreadpirateroberts2020 wrote:

Again, I'm not making Randy a "hero" any way whatsoever.

That said, Randy, like us on this forum, is fascinated by the Columbine tragedy and would like to understand the event further. Again, not too far from the purpose of this forum.

I'd wager that if Randy reached out, 99% of this forum would happily sit down and speak with Randy to see what they could, or could not, learn from him.

I know math is hard, I'm horrid at it. But if you've been reading the 5-6 current topics with constant posts, almost everyone has negative things to say about Randy.

The emperor's clothes are no longer visible, and out of all those active on this topic, the majority have realized all those fancy frocks, they've never existed.

Too true. Speaking for myself, as someone who has no personal experience with the Brown family, in the beginning i was excited (?) thinking of all the additional information and research he potentially had. The possibilities were endless! Now he's made me incredibly cynical and untrusting regarding anything he says, and his MO of attack and belittle is just disturbing from someone who is such a 'bullying caused this' advocate

Bugg wrote:

and his MO of attack and belittle is just disturbing from someone who is such a 'bullying caused this' advocate

^^^This. So much repetition about removing the bullying, removing the humiliation. Choosing kindness. And then, if you don't agree with him, he lets rip with some sarcastic comment or put down, not a well thought out, research-based conversation as to why his point his correct.

thelmar wrote:

Bugg wrote:

and his MO of attack and belittle is just disturbing from someone who is such a 'bullying caused this' advocate

^^^This. So much repetition about removing the bullying, removing the humiliation. Choosing kindness. And then, if you don't agree with him, he lets rip with some sarcastic comment or put down, not a well thought out, research-based conversation as to why his point his correct.

It's interesting because when i was reading Randy's book, i often thought - This man acts like a bully. He wrote about his agression, there was some moment when he screamed and started insulting another person at the parking lot. Randy unintentionally revealed a lot about his personality with his book.
Also his son Aaron had some weird moments. According to Randy's book, Aaron said something like "Eric didn't kill us because i didn't beat the shit out of him that time in the school". Apparently Eric and Aaron didn't like each other, so Aaron wanted to beat him, but then nobly decided not to do it.
I remember just - WTF-ing about this particular moment in the book.

Ligeya wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Bugg wrote:

and his MO of attack and belittle is just disturbing from someone who is such a 'bullying caused this' advocate

^^^This. So much repetition about removing the bullying, removing the humiliation. Choosing kindness. And then, if you don't agree with him, he lets rip with some sarcastic comment or put down, not a well thought out, research-based conversation as to why his point his correct.

It's interesting because when i was reading Randy's book, i often thought - This man acts like a bully. He wrote about his agression, there was some moment when he screamed and started insulting another person at the parking lot. Randy unintentionally revealed a lot about his personality with his book.
Also his son Aaron had some weird moments. According to Randy's book, Aaron said something like "Eric didn't kill us because i didn't beat the shit out of him that time in the school". Apparently Eric and Aaron didn't like each other, so Aaron wanted to beat him, but then nobly decided not to do it.
I remember just - WTF-ing about this particular moment in the book.

I also bought Randy's book as soon as it came out but I'm currently reading it skipping through pages bc the preaching sometimes is too much so I haven't read the part where he says that about Aaron but it's like...this family I swear I know I'm gonna get shit for saying this bc I don't know them but, maybe, just maybe I understand why Eric broke Brooks's windshield.
Edit: Nvm, I just read that part, and eh good thing he didn't, it's not like he was supposed to be killed off anyway bc Eric wanted it to be a bombing. Whatev.

On the AMA someone asked Randy if he had ever been bullied. This was his reply:

Quote :

Just a little, in 7th grade. And in senior high. I was bullied a little. So were others. I have never been a bully, but have been in fights. Most everyone has. I do understand humiliation. Many people I know have been abused, by bullies or schools, or parents. The main point is that the humiliation, hypervigilance and development of violence fits everything I know, and I can find.

If he believes he has never bullied (and this is going just by his responses on the AMA, not even including the stories we've heard from those who know him), then he is either in denial about his own behavior or is one of those people who believes that the way that he treats/ talks to people isn't "that bad" or "he can't help it if people get offended by the things he says."
I don't know which is worse.