Randy Brown still thinks Eric killed Dylan

EDIT: At first, I accidentally posted this in "Off Topic" ... I deleted that post and made a new one here.

At least, he thought that way five years ago.

Someone on the old board corresponded with him by e-mail ... these are the answers to the questions that she asked him.

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Did he ever say why he believes eric killed dylan?
and why would the police care if the basement tapes make the harris family look bad?

There's no way possible that Eric could have killed Dylan. The evidence strongly suggests that Eric was dead first.

In regard to the school ballistics, I think Randy Brown is the only person that has the reports on that. That is a lot of lead going into the school O.o

browneyes11 wrote:

Did he ever say why he believes eric killed dylan?
and why would the police care if the basement tapes make the harris family look bad?

I think the idea is that the tapes would reveal that Eric was a rampant problem that law enforcement should have noticed.

The county's position was always that "these were master manipulators, very secret" but the tapes would show that Eric was hardly secret at all, lots of people knew about him, and should've done something.

I know he is being threatened and cannot leak that information out, i'm sure it's his family that are being threatened, even Brooks didn't go into full detail in his book.

Being threatened by whom? Are they still having problems with the LE there?

Were the basement tapes the source of Eric's supposed fantasy of killing Brooks' parents and pissing on Brooks?

The Eric In Columbine video wasn't taken during their lunch period. It was filmed during the morning around 8 or 9

Juicy Jazzy wrote:

Were the basement tapes the source of Eric's supposed fantasy of killing Brooks' parents and pissing on Brooks?

That was from one of Eric's Web sites:
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The name is blacked out, but we know he's talking about Brooks.

Interesting, what do you think there was in the tapes that implicated the Harris family? I thought the transcripts supported the opposite side to that? Maybe it was a visual thing? As for rounds fired into the school, Roughborough possibly? Pretty fascinating

I am also unclear why he believes this. Let's say it is true...I figure either Dylan requested it because he couldn't bring himself to do it, or something caused Eric to just murder him, which seems unlikely given their plans.

Also, why isn't this idea floated more? I do not think the narrative is better by saying they both committed suicide, and, if anything, it would support Cullen and the Browns thoughts on Dylan.

I think that the Browns had a front row seat to all of the crap that the LE pulled. They saw the tapes, and also gathered a bunch of valuable forensic data regarding the shots fired that went into the school. I believe that was from the El Paso Report? Anyway, I think they might have data, inferred or otherwise, that says more than everyone else was told.

Counterintelligence 101 is discredit you leaks. It would make sense for JEFFCO to vilify Brooks as well as his family, after they became squeaky wheels.

I think all the evidence we have - both ballistics as well as Dylan's own written words strongly suggest Dylan was enthusiastic about the suicide or that indeed that was the big or even the main factor behind him taking up the spree shooting plan in the first place.

If Randy Brown has some insider info that proves to be sensible, then I'm open for other interpretations. But so far, I don't see any evidence to think that Randy has any real insider info on this that's not already been made public.

I would really be interested to see if he has anything to back up the claim. Hell, I would be interested in seeing anything he has. From what it sounds like, he might be holding onto some really interesting stuff.

Why won't he leak this info? For fear of what may happen to him or his family?

radaddio wrote:

I would really be interested to see if he has anything to back up the claim. Hell, I would be interested in seeing anything he has. From what it sounds like, he might be holding onto some really interesting stuff.

Well Randy was in cohorts with that Calence/Ethan Emmerson fellow, who had heaps of unreleased material, so it wouldn't surprise me.

If I were Randy Brown and truly had massive amounts of unreleased materials as he claims, and were being threatened by law enforcement, I would first get out of town and then blow the whole thing wide open. Tell me that if he walked into the office of any major media outlet in the country and offered them all that material, they wouldn't promise him millions for it.

Wideawake wrote:

If I were Randy Brown and truly had massive amounts of unreleased materials as he claims, and were being threatened by law enforcement, I would first get out of town and then blow the whole thing wide open. Tell me that if he walked into the office of any major media outlet in the country and offered them all that material, they wouldn't promise him millions for it.

I'm not sure what he has would blow the case right open. Just a few tidbits here and there that he used to bring up every so often on the old Yuku forums to help him prove his theories. For example, he is a big believer that the time of the attack was fudged by LE , and has a few unreleased scans of canteen receipts from the day where the times were off a bit to prove it. An example of this was a receipt found on Rachel when she died. She had purchased something at the canteen (small milk I believe) and the time of purchase was not in line with the commencement of the shooting. Later on we find out that the times were off on the cashier machines in the canteen, which explained the wrong times on the receipts.

How much does the time of the attack make a difference? I know that Eric garner and the school narc went to lunch around that time, and can corroborate the time to a few minutes.

I would be more interested in specific movements of LE in the building, and how that was botched. I think that might be more telling. After all, Colorado is still a very big good ol' boys system, and can be very corrupt to this day. It's not that easy to pick up and leave your hometown, especially when LE still has an eye on you.

@Juicy Jazzy, I don't know what he has. But if he has proof that the Harris' were aware of Eric's plans and LE is covering it up (don't know why they would), and saying that Eric killed Dylan rather than Dylan committing suicide, as well as saying the police fired 160+ rounds into the school...well, that's rather a lot of covering up LE is doing. I would be curious to know how he actually obtained any of that information and what else he may have.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I agree that it is difficult to pick up and leave, and I'm sure the Browns would have a hard time of it. On the other hand, I don't know where Aaron is, but Brooks is certainly away from town and could help. And of course we don't actually know that LE is truly watching/threatening the Browns.

There's a lot we don't know.  

Juicy Jazzy wrote:

Wideawake wrote:

If I were Randy Brown and truly had massive amounts of unreleased materials as he claims, and were being threatened by law enforcement, I would first get out of town and then blow the whole thing wide open. Tell me that if he walked into the office of any major media outlet in the country and offered them all that material, they wouldn't promise him millions for it.

I'm not sure what he has would blow the case right open. Just a few tidbits here and there that he used to bring up every so often on the old Yuku forums to help him prove his theories. For example, he is a big believer that the time of the attack was fudged by LE , and has a few unreleased scans of canteen receipts from the day where the times were off a bit to prove it. An example of this was a receipt found on Rachel when she died. She had purchased something at the canteen (small milk I believe) and the time of purchase was not in line with the commencement of the shooting. Later on we find out that the times were off on the cashier machines in the canteen, which explained the wrong times on the receipts.

I posted something similar to the following somewhere on the forum before but couldn't remember where with information about Rachel's lunch receipt:

At 10:30 on 4/28/99 the Director of Jefferson County School Security requested a computer print out of the cafeteria's meal transactions for the morning of 4/20.
This was necessary to update the cash accounts of students prior to returning to Chatfield High School on 5/3/99 where temporary classes would take place.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
It was reported that the cash register was running ten minuets fast. "I observed the clock to be ten minutes forward of the true time." pg(9846)

The cash register records have Rachel Scott paying for her lunch / item at 11:32:36 pg(9864) This would mean Rachel actually made her purchase at 11:22:36.
The official timeline has E/D opening fire at 11:19 then killing Rachel first and injuring Richard. This is one of many time discrepancies.
Rachel's brother Craig is noted as making a purchase at 11:15:08 (without time adjustment) pg(9857)
The last transaction on the cafeteria cash register on 4/20 is 11:36:21 (without time adjustment)  pg(9866)

If we look at the 11:36:04 (without time adjustment) time entry this is the last name entered as making a purchase on 4/20. This purchase was made by a male student CF pg(2993) less than 4 minuets after Rachel purchased her lunch / item. He recalls buying his lunch before WB (pg 687 -9)  ran in to report someone had been shot outside.
WB initially reports having lunch outside by the stairs then hearing noises. WB saw two guys go down and one get hit in the knee. WB describes what sounds like Dylan with a gun. He only sees one shooter.
In his second interview WB reports as been at the lower end of the stairs by the cafeteria. He saw 2 students get shot, one said "I'm paralyzed." WB again describes what sounds like Dylan spraying bullets everywhere. This is when he ran into the cafeteria.

This diagram of events may be useful when looking at timelines:
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It could be that LE knew a trial with the Harris' would open up evidence that in turn exposed the LE itself.

Jeffco officials had a secret meeting just days after 4/20 (and denied as such) that started a bundle of lies & cover ups. Maynes & another catch a sentence (one much harder than anticipated) for the guns, while others seem to walk free & questionable others "help police".

I sincerely doubt anyone knew 4/20 was going down, but I think others were legally exposed & were able to walk free as Jeffco wanted to get out of this as quick as possible without too much open case exposure & additional cases.

Back to the posted statement.. I can't see an angle by which a cover up for Eric killing Dylan makes sense. Perhaps Randy Brown is saying they messed up? Plausible, but I get the feeling he's saying it was fabricated info.

Hard to challenge anything Randy Brown says, he's a key player from the start, interested in the truth & as actively involved in that search as anyone.

I've heard him speak on 4/20 matter for over 1/2 an hour he comes across very credible, intelligent and very thoughtful of his words so as to not come across as a conspiracy freak or attn seeker.

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The one guy in Jeffco that pursued the truth.. Succeeded John Stone as Sheriff, resigned 6 months later & was found dead in his home at age 59.

Not saying it was Columbine related foul play.. not saying it wasn't, but plenty of motivation for people to not really want to talk.

Juicy Jazzy wrote:

Later on we find out that the times were off on the cashier machines in the canteen, which explained the wrong times on the receipts.

Oh I remember that discussion a while back. I think I was in fact the person who suggested that perhaps the machine timer was off.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

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The one guy in Jeffco  that pursued the truth..  Succeeded John Stone as Sheriff, resigned 6 months later & was found dead in his home at age 59.

Not saying it was Columbine related foul play..  not saying it wasn't, but plenty of motivation for people to not really want to talk.

I'm not convinced there was anything suspicious. Guy had an alacochol proble, as a result lost a job he worked hard to get all hius life. Then he had some sort of romantic relationship gone sour, restraining order and all.
Relaly seems to have been a series of hard blows for someone who seems to have been an ambitious guy proud of his work. *I think sadly he had lots of reasons to go the way he did.

I agree. He did seem like a nice cop though, and he was willing to talk about issues relating to Columbine after all the other cops lawyered up.

I don't see foul play, though.

Well with the basement tapes "Gone" we will never know why they hid them. And yes why doesn't randy just release everything he has now I mean it's almost 20 years later.

Randy Brown has no more knowledge on the killers' final moments than us. His opinion is no more valuable than anyone on here. Actually, it's probably less valuable because I feel a lot of what he says/believes is influenced by his emotions. They were good friends with the Klebold family and obviously had a bit of trouble with the Harris's and I think Randy sides with the Klebolds on almost everything. Saying that the tapes won't be released because it makes the Harris family look bad is such a mean and unnecessary thing to say about a family who's had to go through all of that.

I think the reason it make the Harris family look bad is because it shows Eric's room full of gear while they were asleep in the next room, and it's going to make his parents look like they had a blind eye to something that's super obvious and bad parents for not checking their son's room. It also records around their house showing their privacy.

The very fact Wayne Harris rang 911 on 420 to say he thought Eric could be involved AND kept a diary recording Eric's behaviour shows he knew his son was capable of this yet somehow checking his room and personal belongings didn't occur to them...while I don't think their parents should be blamed, I do think it's very strange that such an oversight could happen. It's not even like Eric was particularly sneaky about hiding some of his stuff.

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I don't think this automatically proves that Wayne knew Eric was capable of doing such a thing.
I've always thought that Wayne became suspicious that Eric was involved because he came home that day to a house reeking of gas fumes and then went down to Eric's room and saw the leftover gun parts scattered on the dresser and bed.
Eric took no care to conceal anything because he knew when he left the house that tragic morning that he'd never return.
Obviously, I can't prove this but I've always thought that was a very logical and likely explanation for Wayne's behavior that day.
Even though Wayne suspected for whatever reason that his son was involved that day before it was confirmed, it must have taken both sets of parents a long, long time to fully understand and come to terms with both what their son's did and their deaths.

limpfisch wrote:

Randy Brown has no more knowledge on the killers' final moments than us. His opinion is no more valuable than anyone on here. Actually, it's probably less valuable because I feel a lot of what he says/believes is influenced by his emotions. They were good friends with the Klebold family and obviously had a bit of trouble with the Harris's and I think Randy sides with the Klebolds on almost everything.

Well, I think Randy did have more knowledge than the general public back in the day when the whole "Jeffco was told about the website and pipebombs" thing was not public knowledge and when Jeffco was trying to swep some things under the carpet.
But now once this is known, I do not think there's anything left now that Randy knows and that has not been made public. At least I've not seen any evidence of that.

I'd also like to thank Randy and Brooks for pushing through and making the pipebomb/website/jeffco thing known and public knowledge. I'm a bit skeptical as far as Brook's account about the school and E&D's motives go (I do think Brooks is projecting onto them his own beliefs which might not have in fact been shared by E&D or be considered important by them). But as far as the website/pipebombs issue goes, Brooks is imho very reliable and its good thet he and his dad pushed against Jeffco on this.

CharlesWhitman wrote:

I think the reason it make the Harris family look bad is because it shows Eric's room full of gear while they were asleep in the next room, and it's going to make his parents look like they had a blind eye to something that's super obvious and bad parents for not checking their son's room.

Well, I'd like to stress that Eric was a rare case. As someone who did study psychology, I can say that for each Eric-like case you have zounds (probably hundreds if not thousands) of case of over-intrusive parents who needlessly check their kids rooms, belongings, personal notes etc.

As dramatic an event as columbine was, its an exception and not the norm. In most cases teenagers need and will do better with greater amounts of privacy rather than vice-versa (unless they have a known drug or alcochol problem etc). As far as the vast majority of teens go, I'd say the Harris approach to parenting is hardly a bad one. Seeing how Kevin grew up to be a normal sucessfull guy, I strongly doubt that the Harris way of parenting was a major cause behind the shooting.

Having said that, the pipebombs were a major warning sign and I think Wayne should have treated it more seriously. Though in his defence, I imagine his senses were dulled by the fact that so many other kids in the area were fooling around building pipebombs or vandalizing homes (still occurs in the Denver area 15 years later, I found a recent article about it and posted it on the forums). I think both Wayne and Jeffco were desensitized by it being common knowledge that many other local kids were making pipebombs, that Eric in turn didn't look all that unusual in context.

themightylaura wrote:

The very fact Wayne Harris rang 911 on 420 to say he thought Eric could be involved AND kept a diary recording Eric's behaviour shows he knew his son was capable of this yet somehow checking his room and personal belongings didn't occur to them...while I don't think their parents should be blamed, I do think it's very strange that such an oversight could happen. It's not even like Eric was particularly sneaky about hiding some of his stuff.

My impression is that the Harris 911 call is a pretty straightforward affair. Wayne (or more likely Kathy) saw the CHS footage on TV, probably heard that the gunmen were wearing trenchcoats, knew that Eric was one of the few kids who did wear them. Then they prolly went to Eric's room, seen the "clue" and then Wayne called 911.

I think the "clue" was probably what triggered the call. I imagine without the clue, Wayne would be outside CHS with all the other parents worrying if his son is ok and not shot by some crazy wacko.

I do agree with both of you.
Simply put, I just think if it came to the point of keeping a record of your child's behaviour and lies, I would have thought the parent would be more proactive in questioning them, taking a peak in their room etc and I feel that had the Harris parents done that then they may have discovered more than the one pipe bomb they did.

I know even if you know your child has some issues, you still would find it hard to believe they could be involved in something like columbine and like I said before, I don't believe their parents should shoulder the blame, but I do believe there was evidence they could have/should have seen before 420.

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I would like to hear more about what evidence you think that both parents missed or should have seen?
I've pondered this over the years and I can't see that much that they missed.
A lot of E &D's behavior before 4/20 was not usual for teenagers.
The only things I can see is the pipe bomb Eric found and made Eric detonate in the mountains.
Sure, that can be seen as trouble but being as a lot of teems in the area experimented with explosives and the fact that Eric always had a keen interest in the military ,I can see why his parents didn't see that as a warning sign.
The only other thing is that their parents didn't search their rooms .
Eric's parents searched his on a regular basis after the van break in for some months but I guess as Eric seemed to be doing well and didn't get in more trouble, they decided to give him some trust.
I assume Dylan's parents thought much the same way.

It may just be a case of me opening my mouth without knowing. I must admit I wasn't aware Eric's parents searched his room for some months after the van incident (is that in the 11k? If so do you happen to have a page # or reference?)

My thoughts on the subject are really just with the evidence that emerged afterwards- their home videos particularly hit men for hire, the fact they gave a tour of their hiding places/ weapons/ ammo on the basement tapes, which as we haven't seen we can't really judge how well/poorly they were concealed but given Eric himself boasting how many times they could have been caught I would guess they were hidden poorly.
My point with Eric's parents in particular were that as his father had obviously noted his behaviour was different to others, I would have thought more attention would have been paid. Even simple things, like did his mom not bring down laundry to his room and notice odd things? Did they never pay him an unexpected visit even unintentionally and notice anything? Did they never question his long period of absense whilst he was doing things like plotting, building pipe bombs or was he really that good at deceiving them?
E& D's missions....I know they 'snuck out' but were they never missed during that time? Like I said it's entirely possible I'm wrong on all of this, but there does seem to be a lot of coincidences and dumb luck in their favour if not one of these occasions were noticed to any extent.

I want to stress again that while I do think about these things, I don't want it to come across as me placing blame with their parents as I don't feel they deserve that, especially after the fact.
I'm also at the age personally (23) where I'm not so old I can't remember my own competency at hiding things, needing/demanding privacy etc but can also to some extent understand where a parent can miss things-with work and home life things can get hectic and perhaps things that should have been obvious (ie Dylan's depression) can slip under the radar.

Hope this explains my point of view a bit better.

I can comment on the "night missions thing" - they did sneak out in the middle of the night, afaik when everyone was asleep. Zach Heckler did too.

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The information about Eric's parents searching his room can be found here:
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That article also mentions that Eric's parents banned him from driving his car for a time after the break in.
I'm sure that E&D's parents could have found those incriminating items if they had searched the rooms deeply but I think that the boys hid them carefully until the day of the shooting. They were hidden behind things or sometimes outside somewhere. If you think about it,only them finding Eric's journal or the basement tapes beforehand would have really proved anything sinister.
I'm not sure if either site of parents knew the contents of hitman for hire or rampart range until after the shootings E and D often worked on video projects or helped friends with theirs so I don't know how much of that their parents saw over time.Their parents may have seen some innocuous footage that Eric and Dylan taped over or erased once the planning for 4/20 started.
I think in hindsight signs may have been missed but I don't think they were very obvious at the time they were happening. There are some parents out there who would have found out what was going on but I think a lot of other parents, including some who have been very critical of the parents of E and D , would not have picked up on things in time enough to prevent this tragedy either.

Eric/Dylan did not start making crickets/pipe bombs until Oct 98 - 6 months before the shooting

As you can see, pipe bombs: 13 made in October '98 & 12 made in March '99.

Crickets would have been EASY to hide considering they were just small co2 canisters.


Crickets:

10 made 10-22-98
04 made 12-18-98
04 made 01-03-99
09 made 02-08-99
13 made 02-17-99

Total: 40 [used 1] = 39 Crickets

Super Crickets:

14 made 04-14-99

Total: 14 Super Crickets

Pipe Bombs:

03 made 10-22-98 ALPHA
01 made 10-22-98 BETA
06 made 10-23-98 BETA
03 made 10-31-98 CHARLIE 2" x 6"
03 made 03-19-99 DELTA
02 made 03-19-99 ECHO
05 made 03-29-99 DELTA
02 made 03-29-99 FOXTROT

Total: 25 Pipe Bombs

PaintItBlack wrote:

I'm not sure if either site of parents knew the contents of hitman for hire or rampart range  until after the shootings E and D often worked on video projects or helped friends with theirs so I don't know how much of that their parents saw over time.Their parents may have seen some innocuous footage that Eric and Dylan taped over or erased once the planning for 4/20 started.
I think in hindsight signs may have been missed but I don't think they were very obvious at the time they were happening. There are some parents out there who would have found out what was going on but I think a lot of other parents, including some who have been very critical of the parents of E and D , would not have picked up on things in time enough to prevent this tragedy either.

Even if they knew about hitmen for hire, I wouldn't really see it as threatening without hindsight. The teacher and the other kids in class and the other guys who took part in making this video all saw it as just a pastishe jab at Tarantino films etc. Just like "Radioactive clothing" was seen as an over-the-top parody of films like Aliens etc.

However you look at it, both films are not serious. The guy playing the geek is speaking deliberately with a squeaky voice, the guy dropping "dead" after being shot does it in a theatrical manner that parodies action movies. Even the on-screen threat scenes don't seem all that serious, with Dylan mentioning "coughing up dandruff" etc.

If I were a teacher, I'd prolly be more concerned about some of the cussing there than anythign esle. Hindsight is 20/20

The fact that they haven't noticed the BT can also be explained by Eric being in the film class and the BT afaik were taped onto tapes which previously had some of his school projects on them (Nixon interview etc). Be honest - you are a parent of a teen, how many times you would watch the same tape over and over again to see if there's nothing new tapeed on it?

I am a bit surprised that the parents didn't search him room more thoroughly for some time after the pipebomb thing. I'm sure I would be very concerned by that combined with the van brake-in if I was Eric's parents.

Wayne Harris told the Mausers that Eric's goodies were well-hidden in a window sill.

You're right that hindsight is everything.

My point was more the combination of a lot of small occurrences or hints that something was amiss not being added up to amount to a larger suspicion than the parents seem to have had. But again, context is everything and if the context seems appropriate for what with hindsight is very sinister then I guess things to slip by as acceptable.

Thanks for the article link and the information on the crickets

browneyes11 wrote:

Did he ever say why he believes eric killed dylan?

I think this suspicion comes from Dr. Kobilinsky, who stated that Dylan's death was not a typical suicidal gun shot wound. Dr. Kobilinsky, who I think teaches forensic science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, also questioned why Dylan's shotgun is so far away from his final position. I think this is what Mr. Brown is referring to when he believes that Eric killed Dylan (although he's never spoken publicly).

I just found out that this was one of the conspiracy theories about Columbine
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Because it's to his benefit he always will.

Are you going to post it your piece on their suicides on reddit? Can't wait.
I don't really remember the details, but he suggested that either Steve Curnow or Corey DePooter were killed by police. He also suggested that Gardner was responsible. Honestly, his book is like a blur in my mind.

EthanEmerson wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I will definitely post a link on Reddit once I get it all organized!

Ahh okay his idea that police killed one of them could explain why he thinks Curnow had a live round in his shirt (evidence says copper fragment). How interesting.

I think Randy rides the conspiracy train whichever way the wind blows. Gardner was the one who told Danny R's family he thought he may have shot him so the El Paso police dept. did a full investigation and found that he was not killed by police. I wonder if Randy held onto that and then morphed it into Gardner killing a different student because it was too good of a conspiracy to let go of?

I wonder if he reads this and gets mad that we're all over here criticizing his theories?

Oh, i think i remember now, he did wrote about Gardner possibly killing Danny! So he had two separate stories of two different students being killed by the police. Danny outside and Steve in the library.

So i misremembered some things. It was Corey, after all. Interesting that at one point Randy also wrote that brave Corey died, fighting back. At that point he confused Corey with Daniel, i suppose.
Here's the quote about killings in the library.

"It is possible that Gardner shot, accidentally, one of the victims in the library. Corey was directly in line with Gardner’s other 3 bullets found in the library. The fatal bullet, that killed Corey, was not found until August, 1999, in Corey’s backpack. It was not checked against Eric and Dylan’s weapons, but against 4 policeman’s weapons. I am surmising that it was not a 9mm (Eric and Dylan’s weapons) but a larger caliber. I am surmising that it was the obvious size and weight of a .45. If you don’t know bullets, let me tell you simply that a 9mm and a .45 are like a baseball and a softball to an expert, or to a policeman. They can tell the difference from 10 feet away. The .45 is much larger and much heavier. The difference would be obvious to a CBI agent gathering evidence, or to any officer on the scene. More information needs to be discovered about this problematic bullet. Why the police would lie about that, is an answer I haven’t discovered yet. Did the police kill Corey, and others, in the library, and they want to keep it secret? Did they kill two or three of the victims? Did they not shoot anyone? "

Didn’t the police move the bodies?

This Randy Brown opinion totally boils my piss!

How did Dylan end up ON Erics leg? Simple question that he never even tried to answer.