I lol'd at this line.

I read something from Dave Cullen's book, and it just made me laugh.

"Eric pulled into the parking lot at 11:10, several minutes behind schedule. A couple of girls spotted his car as they headed out for lunch. They honked and waved. They liked him. Eric waved back and smiled. Dylan followed him in. No waves.


Cullen is such an idiot.

If you ignore Cullen's inclusion of the Brenda Parker stuff (which isn't really his fault, Brenda Parker was considered factual at the time of writing) and his constant brown-nosing of Frank DeAngelis, his book really isn't all that bad. There are students who claim Eric and Dylan were bullied and had no friends, there were also heaps of students who claimed Eric and Dylan had several friends and were in fact bullies themselves. I wouldn't go avoiding his book just because it goes against the grain on this forum.

IMHO, there are a lot of reasons one should avoid Cullen's book if one is searching for truth on this subject. Porter has written a lot on Cullen and his writings on his book and the man himself and they are eloquent and sum up anything I could say. Of course, I don't expect everyone to agree.

PaintItBlack wrote:

IMHO, there are a lot of reasons one should avoid Cullen's book if one is searching for truth on this subject. Porter has written a lot on Cullen and his writings  on his book and the man himself and they  are eloquent and sum up anything I could say. Of course, I don't expect everyone to agree.

Cullen's book was the very first I read on Columbine (despite being interested in Columbine since 2005) and on first read I thought it was sensationalist garbage. Went an bought Jeff Kass' book and thought it was great. Then late last year I gave both books a read through again. And I was shocked that I enjoyed Cullen's book a whole heap more than Kass'. I thought Kass was all over the shop with his book, and too much was focused on the parents of Eric and Dylan, while I thought Cullen hit the nail on the head and provided a smooth read throughout. Obviously the book has misconceptions (written by a journalist after all, and his hard-on for DeAngelis is quite frankly off putting) but I would recommend a read through, though probably wait until you know a bit about Columbine before you start reading, and not if you're a Columbine virgin.

I strongly disagree. Cullen's book is and always will be garbage. No, I'm not just going to ignore the Brenda Parker stuff. For a guy whose ego is so big and arrogant who studied "10 years of Columbine" should know the Brenda Parker was fake since '99-'00. Then he has the nerve to tell us Eric Harris was this pussy pounding ladies man who scored more than the entire football team. LMAO. I mean how can you possibly read that book and even think for a second that it's better than Kass' book, or better yet take it seriously. Eric Harris was a loser. He didn't get women. He rarely went on any dates. Many of the girls he dated described him as weird. He died a lonely virgin. He was depressed. He hated the way he looked. He was a cutter.

And if he was such a pussy pounding strong man like Cullen insists why would he only kiss Susan on the cheek 3 days prior before he knew he would attack the school? I'd figure he would try and get in, but he didn't. He had no confidence in himself. Yes, Eric and Dylan did bully a few people. Dylan seems more like the person who was the bully as he was picking on people as early as 10th grade, but bullied people tend to become bully themselves. They were still bullied. They were NOT popular. Just because you have a group of friends do not mean you're all of a sudden popular. It contradicts with everything Eric & Dylan said.

I made this topic because Cullen is indeed a moron. Dylan did not "follow" Eric's car. Dylan didn't even arrive a while later till after Eric spoke to Brooks. Eric was not a psychopath, and there is rarely any evidence of it. The amount of remorse he shows via Basement Transcripts show he sure as hell wasn't a psychopath, and just a depressed and angered boy who figured that he hated life, and hated the school. They were clearly bullied as well because they wrote about it a few times in their journal (Eric).

And Dylan was no follower. They were in it together. They killed together. They built the pipe bombs together. The fact that Cullen said Dylan had no idea what was going on till 4/20 is completely idiotic. Dylan was as mentally as disturbed as Eric, and wanted to kill people just like Eric. And for a guy who was just a "follower" he sure did a lot of talking in the library, along with letting John Savage go, and ordering Eric to step down , and let him go. Many witnesses said the taller guy was more of the leader, and taking action in the library. Cullen's bias for Dylan is pathetic because didn't Cullen also said "Patrick Ireland is my hero"? What a huge slap in the face considering that he's a Dylan fangirl, and Dylan tried killing him...

"Sure. I'll help you." -shoots his face at point blank range with a shotgun
Yeah. What a follower. What a sad guy who was led on by evil psychopath Eric. Give me a break *rolls eyes

His book is garbage. I do not, nor anyone else should recommend it unless you want to hear the opposite of what happened at Columbine. If you want to read fanfiction go pick up Cullen's book. If you want to hear better details of the story go read Kass or Brooks Brown' book.

Cullen is a hack.

lol wrote:

"Sure. I'll help you." -shoots his face at point blank range with a shotgun
Yeah. What a follower. What a sad guy who was led on by evil psychopath Eric. Give me a break *rolls eyes

Good point, the only reason I even read Cullen was to see what everyone was complaining about, and boy were they right! Plus, I didn't think it was particularly well-written, to boot.

As for the above quote, this was always a real sticking point to me, in ever feeling any sympathy for Dylan, in the same way that Eric's sarcastic "Nice glasses" remark before shooting Daniel Mauser really gets to me.

SodaCanHalfwayOpen wrote:

lol wrote:

"Sure. I'll help you." -shoots his face at point blank range with a shotgun
Yeah. What a follower. What a sad guy who was led on by evil psychopath Eric. Give me a break *rolls eyes

Good point, the only reason I even read Cullen was to see what everyone was complaining about, and boy were they right! Plus, I didn't think it was particularly well-written, to boot.

As for the above quote, this was always a real sticking point to me, in ever feeling any sympathy for Dylan, in the same way that Eric's sarcastic "Nice glasses" remark before shooting Daniel Mauser really gets to me.

Both really went out of their way to intimidate people in the library. I'm sure both had a power-trip out of it too.


As for Cullen - he got some stuff wrong, some stuff right. Certainly Eric was unhappy because he did not get any and Cullen missed that. Cullen also makes Dylan much more of a follower than he was, imho they were equal partners in crime, even though they were very different people and had different roles in the planning of the massacre.

What I think Cullen got right is that he was the guy who for the general public really turned the focus away from nonsense "easy answers" (video games, Manson, Goth culture, violent films, parents etc) and instead put the focus firmly on the individual personalities and beliefs of the two shooters. This is imho Cullen's greatest input into the columbine discussion. I also think his initial assessment of a "psychopath and a depressive" hits close to the mark. I myself would argue that eric was only a milt to moderate psychopath, while Dylan certainly had some issues beyond just his depression. But still, Cullen is close when it comes to the motives and causes of the whole massacre imho.

What about how Cullen not only denies that E &D were bullied, he denies in the book that Columbine EVER had a bullying problem? That is an insult to anyone who ever suffered with bullying there. He denies their experiences!

lol wrote:

I strongly disagree. Cullen's book is and always will be garbage. No, I'm not just going to ignore the Brenda Parker stuff. For a guy whose ego is so big and arrogant who studied "10 years of Columbine" should know the Brenda Parker was fake since '99-'00. Then he has the nerve to tell us Eric Harris was this pussy pounding ladies man who scored more than the entire football team. LMAO. I mean how can you possibly read that book and even think for a second that it's better than Kass' book, or better yet take it seriously. Eric Harris was a loser. He didn't get women. He rarely went on any dates. Many of the girls he dated described him as weird. He died a lonely virgin. He was depressed. He hated the way he looked. He was a cutter.

And if he was such a pussy pounding strong man like Cullen insists why would he only kiss Susan on the cheek 3 days prior before he knew he would attack the school? I'd figure he would try and get in, but he didn't. He had no confidence in himself. Yes, Eric and Dylan did bully a few people. Dylan seems more like the person who was the bully as he was picking on people as early as 10th grade, but bullied people tend to become bully themselves. They were still bullied. They were NOT popular. Just because you have a group of friends do not mean you're all of a sudden popular. It contradicts with everything Eric & Dylan said.

I made this topic because Cullen is indeed a moron. Dylan did not "follow" Eric's car. Dylan didn't even arrive a while later till after Eric spoke to Brooks. Eric was not a psychopath, and there is rarely any evidence of it. The amount of remorse he shows via Basement Transcripts show he sure as hell wasn't a psychopath, and just a depressed and angered boy who figured that he hated life, and hated the school. They were clearly bullied as well because they wrote about it a few times in their journal (Eric).

And Dylan was no follower. They were in it together. They killed together. They built the pipe bombs together. The fact that Cullen said Dylan had no idea what was going on till 4/20 is completely idiotic. Dylan was as mentally as disturbed as Eric, and wanted to kill people just like Eric. And for a guy who was just a "follower" he sure did a lot of talking in the library, along with letting John Savage go, and ordering Eric to step down , and let him go. Many witnesses said the taller guy was more of the leader, and taking action in the library. Cullen's bias for Dylan is pathetic because didn't Cullen also said "Patrick Ireland is my hero"? What a huge slap in the face considering that he's a Dylan fangirl, and Dylan tried killing him...

"Sure. I'll help you." -shoots his face at point blank range with a shotgun
Yeah. What a follower. What a sad guy who was led on by evil psychopath Eric. Give me a break *rolls eyes

His book is garbage. I do not, nor anyone else should recommend it unless you want to hear the opposite of what happened at Columbine. If you want to read fanfiction go pick up Cullen's book. If you want to hear better details of the story go read Kass or Brooks Brown' book.

Cullen is a hack.

Cullen's book isn't a good book to read for someone who is just starting to research Columbine. Mainly because of some of the inaccuracies and the sort of sensationalist way it is written. Although if you are already educated on Columbine, I think there are some good insights to be had from reading it.

I think the best book written on Columbine is definitely "No Easy Answers" by Brooks Brown.

PaintItBlack wrote:

What about how Cullen not only denies that E &D were bullied, he denies in the book that Columbine EVER had a bullying problem? That is an insult to anyone who ever suffered with bullying there. He denies their experiences!

No he doesn't, he claims that the bullying at Columbine was no worse than you would find at any other US-based school.

Juicy Jazzy wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

What about how Cullen not only denies that E &D were bullied, he denies in the book that Columbine EVER had a bullying problem? That is an insult to anyone who ever suffered with bullying there. He denies their experiences!

No he doesn't, he claims that the bullying at Columbine was no worse than you would find at any other US-based school.

You have yet to address the problems I already added in his "Gawd" awful book.

Columbine had horrible bullying issues. Cullen is a stupid fool who tried to say the media exaggerated on everything. He tried to stay away from the "bullying" argument, even though it was clearly true that Columbine had a big bullying issue. There are so many incidents from other students, and even parents complaining about bullying. We already have Mr. Rocky H as a pure huge example of the terrible bullying that went on in the mid-late '90s in Columbine High School.

Also, I have to add in it's the little things like I mentioned in the original post that why Cullen's book is terrible. Where is he getting this BS information from? "Eric went in. All the girls waved. Dylan drove right behind him. None waved". I mean if Cullen did ANY type of research he'd realize why that is COMPLETELY wrong considering Dylan didn't come till several minutes AFTER Eric came into the parking lot.

I'm sorry but that is not the way I see it.
It has been a long while since I read the book, but his denial of Columbine's bullying problem has always stood out vividly in my memory. He may not have come out and said these exact words "Columbine has never had a problem with bullying." , but he crafted his words and statements about it to give that exact impression. Brooks brown has said that one of his problems with the book is that Cullen denies there was bullying and denied things that Brooks himself personally experienced at the school. I believe there are many others who suffered at the school both before and after E &D's time. If I was one of those students who has suffered there and I read Cullen's statements I would be angry on a very personal level.
No offense meant to you.
I guess we just interpret his book and statements very differently.

Juicy Jazzy wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

What about how Cullen not only denies that E &D were bullied, he denies in the book that Columbine EVER had a bullying problem? That is an insult to anyone who ever suffered with bullying there. He denies their experiences!

No he doesn't, he claims that the bullying at Columbine was no worse than you would find at any other US-based school.

Everyone has a different opinion on Cullen's book, but I overall thought he was being a bit of a drama queen. He made it like some tabloid gossip mag about who did what rather than factual information. Although I did find his style funny I don't think it is the go to book if you want some good info about Columbine; like one wouldn't go to a tumblr fangirl. I did like Kass' book though as I thought it was alot more factual and less informal. But that's just my opinion.

As far as books go, I really would like to read "We Are But We Aren't Psycho" if it ever gets translated into English.

Cullen's book was my first real read into the Columbine massacre. One thing I can say is that he managed to make a compelling book with a lot of data. I agree that his comparison of Eric to the football team in regards to prowess with the ladies is dumb. There are numerous times that things like that come up in his book, and it borders on hyperbole. Selling books is hard, and I think his motivation was to really sell this tired news story with a purported "fresh perspective". I don't think he was ever as close to the Columbine story as he thought he was.

I liked Brooks' book, but I feel that his own viewpoint was also marred by his being a constant victim of bullying. I think E/D were bullied, but not to the extent that they were complete outcasts. He tends to recycle the same few events and instances over and over again. It was still a good read, and I was amazed to see the darker side of the post-Columbine love in that the media was showing on all of the channels. When he talked about how the football team was going to get together and jump him and other E/D friends at the church meeting it really hit home on how lonely he must have felt. It also showed how poisonous that community really can be.

I'm reading Kass' book now. He does offer up a little too much information about the parents, but that is tempered by the fact that he seemed to have a better focus on the data and witness testimony than Cullen ever could. Cullen wanted to tell a story, Kass wanted to educate you. Both of them hit their marks, for better or worse.

We differ on Cullen's writing ability. Or at least what he has displayed so far.
He is hailed as a great writer but I found his writing to be overblown, sensationalist and pretentious in a very obvious way.
But radaddio, I am replying to your post because you raised a very important and sometimes overlooked point. I don't think it is right for a writer to tell a "story" about a real life tragedy and claim it is non fiction.
When it comes to real life events, I want as a complete and accurate accounting of the people and events involved as is possible for a writer to achieve.
Cullen constantly injected his own opinions as fact which I found truly offensive and annoying. Plus some of the things he wrote were just outright lies in my opinion such as Eric having and sleeping with all these girls, E &D being popular and much higher up in the social strata than they ever were.
if Cullen had wanted to write a book about Columbine and interject his opinions as fact and outright make up things there was a writing device known as historical fiction for him to do.
Much historic fiction has been written about real life events ands some of what I have read is excellent. If Cullen had done that ,while I still doubt I would have liked his work, I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with him as I do.
Instead he wrote in the non fiction category and promoted his book as being the definitive source of information and answers about these events.

radaddio wrote:

Cullen's book was my first real read into the Columbine massacre. One thing I can say is that he managed to make a compelling book with a lot of data. I agree that his comparison of Eric to the football team in regards to prowess with the ladies is dumb. There are numerous times that things like that come up in his book, and it borders on hyperbole. Selling books is hard, and I think his motivation was to really sell this tired news story with a purported "fresh perspective". I don't think he was ever as close to the Columbine story as he thought he was.

I liked Brooks' book, but I feel that his own viewpoint was also marred by his being a constant victim of bullying. I think E/D were bullied, but not to the extent that they were complete outcasts.  He tends to recycle the same few events and instances over and over again. It was still a good read, and I was amazed to see the darker side of the post-Columbine love in that the media was showing on all of the channels. When he talked about how the football team was going to get together and jump him and other E/D friends at the church meeting it really hit home on how lonely he must have felt. It also showed how poisonous that community really can be.

I'm reading Kass' book now. He does offer up a little too much information about the parents, but that is tempered by the fact that he seemed to have a better focus on the data and witness testimony than Cullen ever could. Cullen wanted to tell a story, Kass wanted to educate you. Both of them hit their marks, for better or worse.

As for Brook's book, it's not perfect but he is the only one of their friends to write a book, he was there and he did experience a lot of the same things E &D did. For those reasons alone , his book will always be valuable.

I agree. My only qualm is that he seemed to recycle the same few examples of bullying. Aside form that though, he provided a very intimate look at the community from the outcast's perspective.

lol wrote:

Columbine had horrible bullying issues. Cullen is a stupid fool who tried to say the media exaggerated on everything. He tried to stay away from the "bullying" argument, even though it was clearly true that Columbine had a big bullying issue. There are so many incidents from other students, and even parents complaining about bullying.

Yeah, but that is imho exactly the point: Columbine HAD a bullying problem and columbine HAD a biased preference for athletes.

Some students were bullied particularly badly. However: by all accounts Eric and Dylan wee not one of them. the people closest to Eric and Dylan (Chris Morris or Nate) descibe the conflict between athletes and TCM as a conflict between two cliques, not as athletes as a group picking on individual defenceless students. Morris mentions that Eric would sometimes start trouble with jocks expecting Chris to "back him up" which annoyed Chris.

The most important evidence is that Eric and Dylan in their private writings wher ethey openly mention the shooting plans, never mention bullying at all. The only time Eric mentions bullying is in the "mission briefings" and that is where he as clearly the bully. In their writngs the shooters explicityly and clearly (particularly Eric) mention what they hate and why they are going to make a spree killing. Bullying is not mentioned.

With all due respect, you're sounding like Dave Cullen. Is his bunch of BS rubbing off on some members here?

"This is the shit you've given us for the last 4 years!" - Dylan

"All jocks with white hats, STAND UP!" - Dylan

"And he was pointing a gun at my face laughing, and asking if I wanted to die. He said its all because people were mean to him last year" - Bree speaking on Eric Harris

"You could have treated me like a senior" - Eric

"People always making fun of me, how I look, what I wear" - Eric Basement Tapes

The fact that I have practically no self-esteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. Therefore people make fun of me … constantly … therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED." - Eric

Btw in the 11k reports its clearly stated Eric was picked on a lot, the most in junior year. The guys on his shit list...most admitted to picking on him. Chris also stated in the 11k Eric was bullied a lot. Dylan was not as bullied as much Eric. Nate confirms this by saying Eric was bullied, but Dylan rarely if ever.

Are you forgetting about the Ketchup Incident in their junior year in 98? What about the marijuana incident that same month as the van break in?

I have no idea where people come up with that they were rarely bullied. They clearly were, but it wasnt their only motive.

It's not that they were rarely bullied. There are numerous references to what they went through. The picture that emerges seems to be that many people of all walks of life took a lot of bullying due to the preference for athletics. What they dealt with might have been the normal everyday for their school, right or wrong.

Cullen sites almost all of his sources in the back of his book, and it looks legitimate on the surface. Aside from the sources and interviews, he doesn't really give his process for interpreting it. His book reads like a fan fiction that is backed up with a lot of facts and interviews. It does tend to be sensationalist, and he tends to speculate on people's emotions and thought processes without anything to back it up. I can say that selling books is hard, and he pulled out every stop to sell this one. He tried to rehash things by giving every valid point a counter point that he professed as the new written law.

I spoke with Cyn Shepard via email a couple of years ago, and it was mentioned that the community of Columbine wasn't really happy with his book either. I find that odd, since his book tends to paint the school and police force as mostly good. He glosses over extreme, documented cases of abuse of power and preferential treatment for the sake of making a story.

Again, I'm not defending Cullen. I think he should have marketed his book differently, and he did a disservice by selling a revised version of documented historical events. That being said, it was the book that got me researching Columbine. His book might be the thing that most people see when they ask about the massacre. If it brings more people into the fray who are willing to ask the right questions and disagree with everything he says, then it might be worthwhile in the long run.

lol wrote:

What about the marijuana incident that same month as the van break in?

What incident are you referring to? I don't think I've read about this.

lol wrote:

With all due respect, you're sounding like Dave Cullen. Is his bunch of BS rubbing off on some members here?

"This is the shit you've given us for the last 4 years!" - Dylan

"All jocks with white hats, STAND UP!" - Dylan

"And he was pointing a gun at my face laughing, and asking if I wanted to die. He said its all because people were mean to him last year" - Bree speaking on Eric Harris

"You could have treated me like a senior" - Eric

"People always making fun of me, how I look, what I wear" - Eric Basement Tapes

The fact that I have practically no self-esteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. Therefore people make fun of me … constantly … therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED." - Eric

Btw in the 11k reports its clearly stated Eric was picked on a lot, the most in junior year. The guys on his shit list...most admitted to picking on him. Chris also stated in the 11k Eric was bullied a lot. Dylan was not as bullied as much Eric. Nate confirms this by saying Eric was bullied, but Dylan rarely if ever.

Are you forgetting about the Ketchup Incident in their junior year in 98? What about the marijuana incident that same month as the van break in?

I have no idea where people come up with that they were rarely bullied. They clearly were, but it wasnt their only motive.

If you read Eric's journal, you will notice that all the anger like "people makign fun of him" is aimed not at bullies but at his supposed friends who do not treat him with respect he thinks he deserves. It is aimed at people who "wronged him", but this later turns out to mean people who do not invite him to cool events who "had my phone number and I asked and all, but don't let the weird Eric kid come around".

So sorry, I need to make this clear: you are wrong about Eric. Eric side of the story is not about him complaining about bullying. Its him complaining his so called friends keep him down, make fun of him behind his back, do not invite him to parties etc. Lack of peer respect amongst people he'd like to hang around with. Not bullying.

The ketchup incident was exactly that - an incident. As mentioned before, Eric and Dylan were at least a few times harassed by the group of jocks that graduated in 1998. It is the same group of jocks that harassed a TON of people who openly mention it in 11k.

Was Eric or Dylan bullied extensively day-after-day repeatedly? Nope. did they sufer more harrasment than 90% of other CHS students? Not that we know of. Eric and Dylan were random targets of opportunity for a group of jocks that harassed probably the better part of the whole CHS population. What is more: Eric was probably one of the less passive victoms around, as Morris mentions that Eric went out of his way and actively started trouble with jocks hoping Chris would back him up.

Bottom line: I never said they were always fine. CHS had a bullying problem and some kids got it very hard, but E&D were not one of them. They were by all accoutns very regular "average" joes an received the regular, average dose of being picked on that most CHS students faced. Thy did not have to roll a marble with their nose all through the hallways as the jewish kid did. they did not have their heads banged into the urinal and then dunked into the toilet as that other girl had.

There were a lopt of people who had it very, very hard at columbine. Eric and Dylan did not.

Here's a quote from Eric (his website, missions briefing) regarding how he fels about bullying:

Eric Harris wrote:

Our second mission was against this complete and utter fag's house. Everyone in our school hates this immature little weakling. So we decided to "hit" his house. On Friday night (2/7/97) at about 12:15AM we arrived at this queer's house. Fully equiped with 3 eggs, 2 roles of toilet paper, the cheap brand, no pretty flowers. (we were disappointed to) superglue, and the proper tools to make his phone box a busy box (for those of you that are stupid, a buy box is where you set their box so that when they try to make a call, they get a busy signal and when someone else calls, they get a busy signal too). We placed 2 eggs in his very large, thick bushes. We just barely cracked them open so they will be producing a rather repulsive and extremely BAD odor for sometime. We placed the last egg on his "welcome" mat. It was very neat, I cracked the egg, put the yoke in the center, and the 2 halves on either side of the yoke. Then we teepeed his large pine tree and this...oak? tree. I dont know, Its big though. It wasnt a complete teepee but it was enough to agitate the home owner greatly. We also put the superglue on the front door and on the little red mail box flag.

So yeah, there you have a guy who according to Eric is hated by everyone in schol because he is a "fag" and a "weakling" and then Eric decides to ride the lemming bus and pick on this kid more, daaging his house and trees. Doesn't even have the guts to pick on this guy directly, he does it behind his back at night.

Sorry, to me this doesn't seem like Eric-the-shy-bullied-kid. This is Eric picking on a "weakling", still the same Eric who will later on kill unarmed freshmen with his shotgun point-blank.

This may have been the doing of his editor and publisher. Brooks said he saw and experienced a lot of bullying over the years he was there. If Brooks had written in any detail about all those incidents it would have taken up the entire book.

radaddio wrote:

I agree. My only qualm is that he seemed to recycle the same few examples of bullying. Aside form that though, he provided a very intimate look at the community from the outcast's perspective.

To me, the worse documented instance of Eric being bullied beside the ketchup incident was the time in the Fall before the shooting where Eric was shoved into lockers and repeatedly hit in the face with a volleyball after gym class.
This was reported by students who witnessed it and it is in the 11 k report. I don't have the page number but it is there.


That being said none of us can really say how much they were bullied for sure because we weren't there.
All we can do is form our beliefs on all the sources we have put together but as this thread shows people interpret the evidence differently.

Sabratha wrote:

lol wrote:

With all due respect, you're sounding like Dave Cullen. Is his bunch of BS rubbing off on some members here?

"This is the shit you've given us for the last 4 years!" - Dylan

"All jocks with white hats, STAND UP!" - Dylan

"And he was pointing a gun at my face laughing, and asking if I wanted to die. He said its all because people were mean to him last year" - Bree speaking on Eric Harris

"You could have treated me like a senior" - Eric

"People always making fun of me, how I look, what I wear" - Eric Basement Tapes

The fact that I have practically no self-esteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. Therefore people make fun of me … constantly … therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED." - Eric

Btw in the 11k reports its clearly stated Eric was picked on a lot, the most in junior year. The guys on his shit list...most admitted to picking on him. Chris also stated in the 11k Eric was bullied a lot. Dylan was not as bullied as much Eric. Nate confirms this by saying Eric was bullied, but Dylan rarely if ever.

Are you forgetting about the Ketchup Incident in their junior year in 98? What about the marijuana incident that same month as the van break in?

I have no idea where people come up with that they were rarely bullied. They clearly were, but it wasnt their only motive.

If you read Eric's journal, you will notice that all the anger like "people makign fun of him" is aimed not at bullies but at his supposed friends who do not treat him with respect he thinks he deserves. It is aimed at people who "wronged him", but this later turns out to mean people who do not invite him to cool events who "had my phone number and I asked and all, but don't let the weird Eric kid come around".

So sorry, I need to make this clear: you are wrong about Eric. Eric side of the story is not about him complaining about bullying. Its him complaining his so called friends keep him down, make fun of him behind his back, do not invite him to parties etc. Lack of peer respect amongst people he'd like to hang around with. Not bullying.

The ketchup incident was exactly that - an incident. As mentioned before, Eric and Dylan were at least a few times harassed by the group of jocks that graduated in 1998. It is the same group of jocks that harassed a TON of people who openly mention it in 11k.

Was Eric or Dylan bullied extensively day-after-day repeatedly? Nope. did they sufer more harrasment than 90% of other CHS students? Not that we know of. Eric and Dylan were random targets of opportunity for a group of jocks that harassed probably the better part of the whole CHS population. What is more: Eric was probably one of the less passive victoms around, as Morris mentions that Eric went out of his way and actively started trouble with jocks hoping Chris would back him up.

Bottom line: I never said they were always fine. CHS had a bullying problem and some kids got it very hard, but E&D were not one of them. They were by all accoutns very regular "average" joes an received the regular, average dose of being picked on that most CHS students faced. Thy did not have to roll a marble with their nose all through the hallways as the jewish kid did. they did not have their heads banged into the urinal and then dunked into the toilet as that other girl had.

There were a lopt of people who had it very, very hard at columbine. Eric and Dylan did not.

Here's a quote from Eric (his website, missions briefing) regarding how he fels about bullying:

Eric Harris wrote:

Our second mission was against this complete and utter fag's house. Everyone in our school hates this immature little weakling. So we decided to "hit" his house. On Friday night (2/7/97) at about 12:15AM we arrived at this queer's house. Fully equiped with 3 eggs, 2 roles of toilet paper, the cheap brand, no pretty flowers. (we were disappointed to) superglue, and the proper tools to make his phone box a busy box (for those of you that are stupid, a buy box is where you set their box so that when they try to make a call, they get a busy signal and when someone else calls, they get a busy signal too). We placed 2 eggs in his very large, thick bushes. We just barely cracked them open so they will be producing a rather repulsive and extremely BAD odor for sometime. We placed the last egg on his "welcome" mat. It was very neat, I cracked the egg, put the yoke in the center, and the 2 halves on either side of the yoke. Then we teepeed his large pine tree and this...oak? tree. I dont know, Its big though. It wasnt a complete teepee but it was enough to agitate the home owner greatly. We also put the superglue on the front door and on the little red mail box flag.

So yeah, there you have a guy who according to Eric is hated by everyone in schol because he is a "fag" and a "weakling" and then Eric decides to ride the lemming bus and pick on this kid more, daaging his house and trees. Doesn't even have the guts to pick on this guy directly, he does it behind his back at night.

Sorry, to me this doesn't seem like Eric-the-shy-bullied-kid. This is Eric picking on a "weakling", still the same Eric who will later on kill unarmed freshmen with his shotgun point-blank.

I must say, that was very well said...nice post.

Just going to throw my two cents in here. I don't question that E/D were bullied or that they were bullies themselves.

I think it is very possible that they were both.

When I was in my freshman year of high school, I got teased and picked on. I was very depressed at the time and I hated school.
I hated school so much I would try to sleep through basically everyone of my classes. I wore a lot of black and I cut myself (don't judge that was a long time ago)
I was mostly picked on by the football players. When I would put my head down to sleep in class, they would throw paper, erasers, pencils at my head.
I usually wore long sleeves to cover the scars on my wrist, but there was a couple of occasions when this asshole jock would see them and start
in with the questions and taunts "Are you suicidal?" "Maybe you should just do it, quit being a chicken shit" things like that.

I wouldn't say that I was bullied extensively, but I can say that it did affect me deeply. After sometime I decided I wasn't going to take their shit.
I got In School Suspension several times for standing up for myself. That really pissed me off because the teachers wouldn't help me, and when I tried to stand up
for myself I was the one who was punished not the bullies. After my freshman year, things changed drastically I was the bully now.

I remember shoving underclassmen around in the hallways and cussing out kids who accidentally stepped on my feet.
I most definitely was bullied, but over time I BECAME THE BULLY. I didn't pick on kids that had personally wronged me
I picked on kids that were weaker than me (underclassmen, usually boys because they wouldn't fight back)

Why? Because when you are the meanest, scariest looking kid in school NO ONE messes with you.
And I believe that is true, I stopped having problems with the jocks after that.
It's also a power trip. And I think that played a huge part for E/D

IMHO, E/D were bullied. I don't know to what degree they were bullied, but I know it pissed them the fuck off. SO THEY BECAME THE BULLIES

PaintItBlack wrote:

That being said none of us can really say how much they were bullied for sure because we weren't there.
All we can do is form our beliefs on all the sources we have put together but as this thread shows people interpret the evidence differently.

Words of truth, if I ever saw any.

That's one of the few reasons why I think they should at least release transcripts of the basement tapes. There's little to none bullying mentioned in the journals. Supposedly there;'s more of that on the tapes, but its all unreliable 2nd hand knowledge shared by starstruck journalists shortly after the shooting, when everyone was knee-deep in the "goths, bullying, video games and Manson" paranoia.

This made me laugh as well, that book is really bad.

Does anyone know if there is pdf for Cullen's book?
I honestly don't want to pay any money for this garbage,but I can't shake the feeling off that the book will be very entertaining and fanfiction like. Would love to read it!

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

Does anyone know if there is pdf for Cullen's book?
I honestly don't want to pay any money for this garbage,but I can't shake the feeling off that the book will be very entertaining and fanfiction like. Would love to read it!

Not a PDF and not the whole thing, but enough to give you a taste of Cullen's horseshit:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Try not to gag...

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

Does anyone know if there is pdf for Cullen's book?
I honestly don't want to pay any money for this garbage,but I can't shake the feeling off that the book will be very entertaining and fanfiction like. Would love to read it!

Ahh! Thank you so much! Although I won't read it  if it's not full ..  
I hate starting a book and not be able to finish it..  
but thanks again!

Not a PDF and not the whole thing, but enough to give you a taste of Cullen's horseshit:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Try not to gag...

There must be a PDF copy floating around somewhere ... good luck finding it.

The world is less interesting with Cullen's book in it...

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

Does anyone know if there is pdf for Cullen's book?
I honestly don't want to pay any money for this garbage,but I can't shake the feeling off that the book will be very entertaining and fanfiction like. Would love to read it!

Cullen's book is the best one about Columbine. He was the first journalist to demonstrate the accurate theory that Eric is a psychopath and Dylan a depressive.

Cullen also spends a lot of time in the book describing many other people in the community, an aspect of his book that is never mentioned in discussions of it on this board by people who only care about Eric or Dylan.

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

Does anyone know if there is pdf for Cullen's book?
I honestly don't want to pay any money for this garbage,but I can't shake the feeling off that the book will be very entertaining and fanfiction like. Would love to read it!

Cullen's book is the best one about Columbine.  He was the first journalist to demonstrate the accurate theory that Eric is a psychopath and Dylan a depressive.

Cullen also spends a lot of time in the book describing many other people in the community, an aspect of his book that is never mentioned in discussions of it on this board by people who only care about Eric or Dylan.

I've said many times that some of the stuff Cullen writes about the victims is interesting. Like I said, I thought he did a good job of depicting Patrick Ireland's struggles.

But "Eric = psycho / Dylan = emo" is far from proven.

What is your deal, lasttrain? Are you a paid shill? Or do you feel a warm tingle up your leg as you bask in the glow of the admiration of your beloved Cullen?

Or are you Cullen himself?

LPorter101 wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

Does anyone know if there is pdf for Cullen's book?
I honestly don't want to pay any money for this garbage,but I can't shake the feeling off that the book will be very entertaining and fanfiction like. Would love to read it!

Cullen's book is the best one about Columbine.  He was the first journalist to demonstrate the accurate theory that Eric is a psychopath and Dylan a depressive.

Cullen also spends a lot of time in the book describing many other people in the community, an aspect of his book that is never mentioned in discussions of it on this board by people who only care about Eric or Dylan.

I've said many times that some of the stuff Cullen writes about the victims is interesting. Like I said, I thought he did a good job of depicting Patrick Ireland's struggles.

But "Eric = psycho / Dylan = emo" is far from proven.

What is your deal, lasttrain? Are you a paid shill? Or do you feel a warm tingle up your leg as you bask in the glow of the admiration of your beloved Cullen?

Or are you Cullen himself?

I have never laughed so much! I only have seen few interviews on YouTube of Cullen and I already knew what he is trying to sell /force on people is BULL!
He sees Eric only as psychopath, but Dylan as Depressive.. really? If Eric was a psychopath Dylan is one too! They both killed people and actually Dylan seemed more like psychopath on that day more than Eric did..
but hey if you are Cullen himself, then please do send a pdf to me ;) I want to laugh while reading it

Psychopathy is not about killing people. In fact most psychopaths you will come around in your life will never kill anyone and probably go through life without commiting serious crimes.

Psychopathy is a complex behavioral strategy, some go as far as to say its actually a personality type. I can go on about it, but suffice to say taht psychopaths are active, outspoken, emotionally flat, have little to no empathy and are often impulsive and will go to great lenghts to get what they want.

LPorter101 wrote:

What is your deal, lasttrain? Are you a paid shill? Or do you feel a warm tingle up your leg as you bask in the glow of the admiration of your beloved Cullen?

Hey, I don't agree with Cullen and not say you have to. But maybe ease off with the personal atatcks? The guy didn't say anything vulgar or offensive, so why the outburst?

Sabratha wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

What is your deal, lasttrain? Are you a paid shill? Or do you feel a warm tingle up your leg as you bask in the glow of the admiration of your beloved Cullen?

Hey, I don't agree with Cullen and not say you have to. But maybe ease off with the personal atatcks? The guy didn't say anything vulgar or offensive, so why the outburst?

This guy[?] has posted before. He's a known fanboy/agent of Cullen.

Right. Patrick Ireland is Cullen's hero.....oh wait, what was that? Dylan was just Eric's lackey? Poor Dylan was forced into it? Boy...what a slap in the face to Patrick! Considering how Dylan shot him twice in the head.

Poor emo Dylan was crying as he told Lance Kirklin he'll help him by blowing his jaw off shooting him at close range. Dylan was known to be crying after this incident. He was also full of tears while screaming "WOOOHOOOO" and yelling "TODAY IS THE DAY I DIE"

He was very emotional when they walked in the library and he asked Eric "You still with me? We're going to do this right? "

Poor poor Dylan.

lol wrote:

Right. Patrick Ireland is Cullen's hero.....oh wait, what was that? Dylan was just Eric's lackey?  Poor Dylan was forced into it? Boy...what a slap in the face to Patrick! Considering how Dylan shot him twice in the head.

Poor emo Dylan was crying as he told Lance Kirklin he'll help him by blowing his jaw off shooting him at close range. Dylan was known to be crying after this incident. He was also full of tears while screaming "WOOOHOOOO" and yelling "TODAY IS THE DAY I DIE"

He was very emotional when they walked in the library and he asked Eric "You still with me? We're going to do this right? "

Poor poor Dylan.

Those tears must of been a happy tears! ;)

LPorter101 wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

What is your deal, lasttrain? Are you a paid shill? Or do you feel a warm tingle up your leg as you bask in the glow of the admiration of your beloved Cullen?

Hey, I don't agree with Cullen and not say you have to. But maybe ease off with the personal atatcks? The guy didn't say anything vulgar or offensive, so why the outburst?

This guy[?] has posted before. He's a known fanboy/agent of Cullen.

Yeah, but did he insult you before?

Sabratha wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

What is your deal, lasttrain? Are you a paid shill? Or do you feel a warm tingle up your leg as you bask in the glow of the admiration of your beloved Cullen?

Hey, I don't agree with Cullen and not say you have to. But maybe ease off with the personal atatcks? The guy didn't say anything vulgar or offensive, so why the outburst?

This guy[?] has posted before. He's a known fanboy/agent of Cullen.

Yeah, but did he insult you before?

Cullen insults us with the tripe that he peddles ... lasttrain insults us by implying that we could be dumb enough to believe Cullen.

As I've said, if Cullen wants to take us on, let him take us on. But enough with this go-between BS.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] have been debating back and forth about Cullen for I'd say at least a year or more now. There has never been any complaints about insults or personal attacks. If anyone has a personal problem with someone, please let an Admin or Moderator know about it. I'd prefer to keep monitoring of the board to the Admins and Mods. It makes things a lot easier and a lot less confusing. Thank you and carry on.

Well, truthfully, my quarrel is not with lasttrain.

As I've said, my problem is not with people who have studied the massacre and who have come to the conclusion that Eric really was a psychopath. It's with people who read Cullen's book and then go around saying, "Oh, all of that other stuff about Columbine is BS - read Cullen and you'll understand."

What really burns me up is the fact that many folks think they know a lot more than they really do.

Now, Cullen is not at all blameless in this situation - he goes around saying, "My book is the only one worth reading! I have all the answers!" But what gets me is not the fact that he says such things, but that people believe him.

I guess there is an ego thing involved. I don't think I'm an expert on 4/20, by any means. But I do believe that I've read and absorbed enough to have developed a valid opinion. I don't appreciate having my perspective belittled by Cullen and his -istas.

(I'm sure he doesn't appreciate having his perspective belittled by me. But the difference is that I'm not saying that my take is the only one worth hearing.)

So, lasttrain, whether or not you feel that I've acted inappropriately, know that the things I say to you have nothing to do with you, per se.

And another thing that bothers me is this:

The thing is that Cullen is good at drawing the reader in - although, if you ask me, he's overrated as a writer. ("He got chicks. Lots and lots of chicks" is about as lame a line as you'll find in a "true-crime" tome.) I can see why people like his style.

If I knew nothing about Columbine other than the fact that two kids shot up their high school, and stumbled upon his book in the library, and read it ... I might very well say to myself, "Hey, this Cullen guy knows his stuff! Everything he says makes sense ... I guess that's that."

It bothers me that someone can write a book that is so seemingly comprehensive but leaves out so much. It bothers me that a slick, smooth-talking author can so totally dominate the public discourse.

And, as I said, it bothers me that people are so willing to lap it up. It makes me realize why our society is fucked up to the extent that is - the smooth-talking jackals serve up their bullshit and the masses swallow it whole.