Killing Cops

Killing cops was a top priority during NBK. As we all know, the cops failed to enter the school and Eric and Dylan, try as they might, could not hit them from the library windows. The boys expended quite a lot of ammo trying. They fired at the police right before killing themselves.  

Did the boys ever stand a chance of killing cops? Eric could not hit Neil Gardner --  he hit the car next to Gardner's and his gun jammed. RR shows how crappy the boys' guns were. Eric's Hi-Point  was probably the best weapon they had and that was what he tried, and failed, to hit Gardner with.

If the SWAT team or even regular cops had entered the library during the massacre, what would have happened? Could the boys have resisted?

Yeah I'm sure Eric and Dylan would love to have get a chance to kill cops, but this proved unrealistic.

Not that they didn't try - they shot at cops from windows and threw at leats one pipe bomb at them, but failed to cause any serious wounds. However one SWAT officer said he was lucky, because a bomb shrapnel just grazed his cheek instead of hitting him squre in the forehead or throat.

If professional SWAT attacked them, sure E&D coudl try to resist but imho they would be dead or incapacitated quickly.

I think even if a group of regular cops with handguns entered the shcool and went to the sound of gunfire, they would probably be able to kill Eric and Dylan and stop further bloodshed.

This is just speculation, but we know both Eric and Dylan had crappy weapons, especially when it coems to longer and medium ranges. Eric's pump-action gave them a better edge in short-range clashes, but I still think neother had the skills or training to sucessfully engage and defeat a group of 4-6 police guys.

Had the police stormed the school E and D would have been finished. They had inefficient weapons and bad aim and and a large amount of over confidence. The boys had lived NBK as a day to day fantasy for over a year. They expected NBK to go the way they had planned (dreamed) it. The boys just didnt have the skills to handle the police up close. In fact there's evidence the boys knew this and had planned for that to be the end. Eric's "BANG and the ill get shot in the head and die" comment in his journal shows he at least had the knowledge that he couldn't handle a swarm of police.

I think that might be why they walked the schools halls for so long after the library attack. Its like they wanted the cops to come in so they could engage them one final time. After shooting through the windows one last time they realized the police weren't coming for them. Only then did they give in to the suicide pact they made. Had they known SWAT was in the building I think at least Eric would have went to engage them. Eric seems like he would have preferred death by cop over suicide. He didnt think he'd get the chance to engage up close though, so he went through with shooting himself.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Had the police stormed the school E and D would have been finished. They had inefficient weapons and bad aim and and a large amount of over confidence. The boys had lived NBK as a day to day fantasy for over a year. They expected NBK to go the way they had planned (dreamed) it. The boys just didnt have the skills to handle the police up close. In fact there's evidence the boys knew this and had planned for that to be the end. Eric's "BANG and the ill get shot in the head and die" comment in his journal shows he at least had the knowledge that he couldn't handle a swarm of police.

I think that might be why they walked the schools halls for so long after the library attack. Its like they wanted the cops to come in so they could engage them one final time. After shooting through the windows one last time they realized the police weren't coming for them. Only then did they give in to the suicide pact they made. Had they known SWAT was in the building I think at least Eric would have went to engage them. Eric seems like he would have preferred death by cop over suicide. He didnt think he'd get the chance to engage up close though, so he went through with shooting himself.

Thanks for the post. I've been arguing for some of the exact same points in other threads. I think you are 100% right. I would add that they went around sparing students and by-passing classrooms in a very non-spree-shooter fashion while looking for/waiting for the cops. You could argue they were trying to save ammo to use against the cops I s'pose.

I wonder if anyone out there has any technical knowledge about police weaponry and tactics. How would the SWAT team stack-up vs. the boys? Regular cops? Deputies carry shotguns right? They all wear vests. They have stun-grenades??

Anyone know?

Sabratha wrote:

Yeah I'm sure Eric and Dylan would love to have get a chance to kill cops, but this proved unrealistic.

Not that they didn't try - they shot at cops from windows and threw at leats one pipe bomb at them, but failed to cause any serious wounds. However one SWAT officer said he was lucky, because a bomb shrapnel just grazed his cheek instead of hitting him squre in the forehead or throat.

If professional SWAT attacked them, sure E&D coudl try to resist but imho they would be dead or incapacitated quickly.

I think even if a group of regular cops with handguns entered the shcool and went to the sound of gunfire, they would probably be able to kill Eric and Dylan and stop further bloodshed.

This is just speculation, but we know both Eric and Dylan had crappy weapons, especially when it coems to longer and medium ranges. Eric's pump-action gave them a better edge in short-range clashes, but I still think neother had the skills or training to sucessfully engage and defeat a group of 4-6 police guys.

Yep. They could not have stood up to a police offensive.

I wonder what would be the minimum number of cops that could've taken them down?  Two? Three?

Could the cops have found a way, if necessary, to flush them out of the library somehow?

Did they even try to do anything at all?

Sabratha wrote:

However one SWAT officer said he was lucky, because a bomb shrapnel just grazed his cheek instead of hitting him squre in the forehead or throat.

I have seen this mentioned before but I have never seen a member of law enforcement on any injured lists. Do you know his name, and the time and place of his injury?

lasttrain wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

However one SWAT officer said he was lucky, because a bomb shrapnel just grazed his cheek instead of hitting him squre in the forehead or throat.

I have seen this mentioned before but I have never seen a member of law enforcement on any injured lists.  Do you know his name, and the time and place of his injury?

Check this one of my threads, its all there:
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Quite simply, Eric and Dylan never stood a chance against the "pigs". They would've been killed by normal police officers, or special forces. Either way, they had no chance.

lol wrote:

Quite simply, Eric and Dylan never stood a chance against the "pigs". They would've been killed by normal police officers, or special forces. Either way, they had no chance.

I agree they would've been taken down quickly. Police wear bullet proof vests and Eric and Dylan were terrible shots. There's no way they could have made a head shot from a distance, unless they were very lucky.

Not only were they horrible aimers, but as several posters on this topic said, their guns were garbage.

I mean seriously...a Tec-9? I understand the original plan was to shoot remaining students fleeing, but boy you have to realize Dylan probably would have killed 0 people If the bombs went off due to his guns having no type of long distance aim, and I believe they would've been shooting from an angle. For Eric, someone who knows about guns...he should've known the Tec 9 is a piece of shit. Might as well have just gotten a water squirter.

As bad a shot as they were - I'm surprised nobody was seriously hurt in that shoutout. There must have been dozens of cops down there by that point. You'd have thought someone might have been hit.

lol wrote:

Not only were they horrible aimers, but as several posters on this topic said, their guns were garbage.

I mean seriously...a Tec-9? I understand the original plan was to shoot remaining students fleeing, but boy you have to realize Dylan probably would have killed 0 people If the bombs went off due to his guns having no type of long distance aim, and I believe they would've been shooting from an angle. For Eric, someone who knows about guns...he should've known the Tec 9 is a piece of shit. Might as well have just gotten a water squirter.

Yes absolutely terrible guns, that they paid way too much for. I'm gonna have to say this, and I know a lot of people might not agree, but I don't think Eric was all that bright. At least not anywhere near as bright as he thought he was. Was he stupid? Not at all, but he was far from genius.

aubre wrote:

lol wrote:

Not only were they horrible aimers, but as several posters on this topic said, their guns were garbage.

I mean seriously...a Tec-9? I understand the original plan was to shoot remaining students fleeing, but boy you have to realize Dylan probably would have killed 0 people If the bombs went off due to his guns having no type of long distance aim, and I believe they would've been shooting from an angle. For Eric, someone who knows about guns...he should've known the Tec 9 is a piece of shit. Might as well have just gotten a water squirter.

Yes absolutely terrible guns, that they paid way too much for. I'm gonna have to say this, and I know a lot of people might not agree, but I don't think Eric was all that bright. At least not anywhere near as bright as he thought he was. Was he stupid? Not at all, but he was far from genius.

I agree it was the guns. Look at the Rampart Range video. The TEC-9 seems to be shooting almost at right angles from the barrel at times. Cheap K-Mart bullets probably didn't help either. They sawed the shotguns off too short and the High Point seemed to have misaligned sights.

Dos anyone know what kind of gear the first-respondents would've had -- not Gardner but the JeffCo cops?

aubre wrote:

Yes absolutely terrible guns, that they paid way too much for. I'm gonna have to say this, and I know a lot of people might not agree, but I don't think Eric was all that bright. At least not anywhere near as bright as he thought he was. Was he stupid? Not at all, but he was far from genius.

Well, he was doing pretty good in German -- better than I'd do. lol I wouldn't call him stupid. Desperate, sure. Particularly for guns. I think all guns held a mystical power for Eric. That probably unbalanced him somewhat.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

Yes absolutely terrible guns, that they paid way too much for. I'm gonna have to say this, and I know a lot of people might not agree, but I don't think Eric was all that bright. At least not anywhere near as bright as he thought he was. Was he stupid? Not at all, but he was far from genius.

Well, he was doing pretty good in German -- better than I'd do. lol  I wouldn't call him stupid. Desperate, sure. Particularly for guns. I think all guns held a mystical power for Eric. That probably unbalanced him somewhat.  

Yes he was desperate for guns, plus they probably thought it would look good. He definitely wanted to put on a show for sure. I don't think he was stupid by any means, just nowhere near as smart as people seem to give him credit for.

The TEC-9 does look pretty damn intimidating in those stills from the CCTV footage.

aubre wrote:

The TEC-9 does look pretty damn intimidating in those stills from the CCTV footage.

I started a thread on the TEC-9 here:

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Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

The TEC-9 does look pretty damn intimidating in those stills from the CCTV footage.

I started a thread on the TEC-9 here:

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Ah you've already said this. Great minds I guess.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

lol wrote:

Not only were they horrible aimers, but as several posters on this topic said, their guns were garbage.

I mean seriously...a Tec-9? I understand the original plan was to shoot remaining students fleeing, but boy you have to realize Dylan probably would have killed 0 people If the bombs went off due to his guns having no type of long distance aim, and I believe they would've been shooting from an angle. For Eric, someone who knows about guns...he should've known the Tec 9 is a piece of shit. Might as well have just gotten a water squirter.

Yes absolutely terrible guns, that they paid way too much for. I'm gonna have to say this, and I know a lot of people might not agree, but I don't think Eric was all that bright. At least not anywhere near as bright as he thought he was. Was he stupid? Not at all, but he was far from genius.

I agree it was the guns. Look at the Rampart Range video. The TEC-9 seems to be shooting almost at right angles from the barrel at times. Cheap K-Mart bullets probably didn't help either. They sawed the shotguns off too short and the High Point seemed to have misaligned sights.

Dos anyone know what kind of gear the first-respondents would've had -- not Gardner but the JeffCo cops?

Standard issue 9mm handguns, probably Glock 17s or Berettas.

Don't quote me on that, but its what most cops in the US used at the time.

Some law enforcement still carried revolvers then, too. But it was mostly semi autos.

The special forces, SWAT etc would have had M4-style semi auto assault rifles. Those eventually became standard issue in most all squad cars after the Hollywood shootout in the late 90's. In fact, one of the SWAT team can be seen with with that in the footage where they evacuate the kids. I think that he was even providing suppressing fire against the two boys at one point.

Oddly enough, Gardner was wearing a bright yellow shirt, which was part of his uniform when he was working at the school. You would think that would make him an easier target.

There were numerous things they did wrong regarding the guns. I still find it odd that they had a hard time finding firearms, even being underage. Once you get past California, guns are pretty easily had anywhere in the USA. They're choice of guns was probably that same mix of opportunity, price and looks, that weaved through the rest of their plans. When you place your firearms training in the hands of video game developers, you get crappy skills and weapons.

The fact that E/D cut their barrels so short is also another indicator of style over function. They were going for a DOOM FPS type of aesthetic. This might all tie into the fact that they were hoping the bombs would do most of the job for them.

Sabratha wrote:

Standard issue 9mm handguns, probably Glock 17s or Berettas.

Don't quote me on that, but its what most cops in the US used at the time.

Thanks Sabratha!

radaddio wrote:

Some law enforcement still carried revolvers then, too. But it was mostly semi autos.

The special forces, SWAT etc would have had M4-style semi auto assault rifles. Those eventually became standard issue in most all squad cars after the Hollywood shootout in the late 90's. In fact, one of the SWAT team can be seen with with that in the footage where they evacuate the kids. I think that he was even providing suppressing fire against the two boys at one point.

Oddly enough, Gardner was wearing a bright yellow shirt, which was part of his uniform when he was working at the school. You would think that would make him an easier target.

There were numerous things they did wrong regarding the guns. I still find it odd that they had a hard time finding firearms, even being underage. Once you get past California, guns are pretty easily had anywhere in the USA. They're choice of guns was probably that same mix of opportunity, price and looks, that weaved through the rest of their plans. When you place your firearms training in the hands of video game developers, you get crappy skills and weapons.

The fact that E/D cut their barrels so short is also another indicator of style over function. They were going for a DOOM FPS type of aesthetic. This might all tie into the fact that they were hoping the bombs would do most of the job for them.

Agreed. And many thanks for the info, radaddio.

If they had killed a half dozen cops and wounded a few more, how do you think NBK would be looked at today?

Would the police have become even more militarized here in the U.S.? Police brutality and murder of unarmed citizens is already a huge problem here. Would a few cop deaths during NBK have made it even worse?

Would NBK be viewed as a "spree shooting" if they killed as many cops as kids? Or would it be perceived to have more socio-political ramifications?