The Inevitable Bullying Discussion

When I think about why Columbine happened, I never seem sure about how much bullying played into it. Sometimes I think it was a HUGE factor, and sometimes I barely consider it.
I really want to know what you guys think and see if I or we can come to some consensus on how much bullying played into Columbine. And I know some people don't think they even were bullied, but good sources to prove they were are:

Eric's journal and the basement tapes,
Peter Langman's compilation of people who knew them
The article "Forgiving My Columbine Highs chool Friend, Dylan Klebold"
"No Easy Answers" by Brooks Brown

And I know there are more. And I also know that listing those sources is kinda pointless since I'm sure everyone here is aware that they were bullied, but I ask: how much did it contribute to NBK? Was it really a main driving force? Would NBK have happened if they weren't bullied?

My current thought process on the causes of Columbine are that four main things caused it:

1. Mental Illness (it really is hard to say what they had, however we for sure know that Eric had some anger problems and Dylan was very depressed. I'm sure there was more to it than that though.)

2. Attitude (Them believing they were gods, which could be a result of #1, their grandiosity, their hatred of all races, all people and the world)

3. Bullying (they constantly refer to revenge, sometimes they specifically talk about getting back at people who abused them. Not to mention they had 'Shit Lists'. Although it's not bullying, I would throw in failure with girls here. That definitely contributed to their isolation and anger)

4. The January arrest (Dylan outright stated this as a motive, and this arrest did bring them together in terms of a shared rage)

What do you guys think?

Hmm, I'm not sure at all how much bullying in itself contributed to the massacre. I don't doubt that the boys were bullied (more so in sophomore and maybe junior year, though, than in the months leading up to NBK?) but I don't know how affected they were by it. I think there's a difference between being bullied/excluded by people you want to belong to group-wise, and being bullied by people you don't have any interest in belonging to in that sense. If it was the first option that was true for the boys, then I do accept the theory that they were affected by the bullying. If it was the second, then maybe it "wasn't all that bad" for them personally and just served to add to their opinions that mankind is stupid. (I'm not saying that bullying is okay in any situation or that it doesn't have awful effects on people or whatever. It's never a good thing. It's never something that should be condoned or waved away. But there is a difference between acts of bullying from people you don't like in the first place and acts of bullying from people you like enough to want to try and have them accept you. The second one builds up a sense of failure, rejection, and perhaps even self-loathing. The first, though also unpleasant, is something that may be a little easier to shake off.)

What is also interesting to note, here, is that both boys were also seen as the bullies by some. There are accounts of Dylan picking on kids and accounts of Eric being unkind/mocking to others. Is that a typical case of the bullied turning into the bullies, or is it just a part of evidence that suggests that both boys weren't always nice to others either? Columbine, from what I've read about it, was a toxic environment to many. Many kids said that they had moments where they felt unsafe/bullied/etc in that school environment. Bullying could very well have been a contributing factor to the massacre, but I don't believe it to be the main reason why. There are other factors at work here (possible mental illness, delusions of grandeur, separation from reality, disdain for human race, inability to take rejection, etc.) that form the better argument for the massacre overall.

thedragonrampant wrote:

Hmm, I'm not sure at all how much bullying in itself contributed to the massacre. I don't doubt that the boys were bullied (more so in sophomore and maybe junior year, though, than in the months leading up to NBK?) but I don't know how affected they were by it. I think there's a difference between being bullied/excluded by people you want to belong to group-wise, and being bullied by people you don't have any interest in belonging to in that sense. If it was the first option that was true for the boys, then I do accept the theory that they were affected by the bullying. If it was the second, then maybe it "wasn't all that bad" for them personally and just served to add to their opinions that mankind is stupid. (I'm not saying that bullying is okay in any situation or that it doesn't have awful effects on people or whatever. It's never a good thing. It's never something that should be condoned or waved away. But there is a difference between acts of bullying from people you don't like in the first place and acts of bullying from people you like enough to want to try and have them accept you. The second one builds up a sense of failure, rejection, and perhaps even self-loathing. The first, though also unpleasant, is something that may be a little easier to shake off.)

What is also interesting to note, here, is that both boys were also seen as the bullies by some. There are accounts of Dylan picking on kids and accounts of Eric being unkind/mocking to others. Is that a typical case of the bullied turning into the bullies, or is it just a part of evidence that suggests that both boys weren't always nice to others either? Columbine, from what I've read about it, was a toxic environment to many. Many kids said that they had moments where they felt unsafe/bullied/etc in that school environment. Bullying could very well have been a contributing factor to the massacre, but I don't believe it to be the main reason why. There are other factors at work here (possible mental illness, delusions of grandeur, separation from reality, disdain for human race, inability to take rejection, etc.) that form the better argument for the massacre overall.

That was a very well written response. Very insightful, too. I'm not sure if the bullying was from people they wanted to be with or not. It's just that they seem to give hints that bullying did have to do with it (especially Eric). Eric talks about revenge for people making fun of him, and in the basement tapes Eric goes on a whole rant about how being at the bottom of the social ladder added to his rage. Even Dylan says "I'm going to kill you all. You've been giving us shit for years". Not to mention Dylan yelling for all people in white hats to stand up, allegedly also saying something along the lines of "this is for all the shit you've given us", but you're right as well. The things you listed in parentheses are also great arguments as to why it happened. But I've just always wondered about this in particular: in Eric's typed document that is known as "Vaccines", he writes, "someday in April me and V will get revenge and kick natural selection up a few notches". I'm wondering what the "revenge" was.

As for them being the bullies, I know there's a lot of truth to that. They had a lot of anger towards people and weren't afraid to show it. I know Eric said he makes fun of people who look like him just because he wants to make fun of himself

highwayhypnosis wrote:

That was a very well written response. Very insightful, too.

Thank you.

Quote :

I'm not sure if the bullying was from people they wanted to be with or not. It's just that they seem to give hints that bullying did have to do with it (especially Eric). Eric talks about revenge for people making fun of him, and in the basement tapes Eric goes on a whole rant about how being at the bottom of the social ladder added to his rage.

Yes, I can see that with Eric. By all currently known accounts, he was pushed around a lot more than Dylan was. (I think Dylan's height and quiet demeanor worked in his favour when it comes to this. Eric didn't have the height or the threat to him, thus making him the easier target.) I also believe that Eric was the type to get offended more than Dylan was, despite Dylan's overall sensitivity. I think that some of what Eric perceived as slights against him (or people making fun of him) wasn't always necessarily the objective truth. He got upset over the tiniest things sometimes, or so it feels to me right now, and he built on that feeling of being an outcast while he had also done his own part in putting himself into that position. Eric seems to have had trouble accepting or being aware of his own responsibility/contribution toward the failures of some of his relationships. I'm not solely putting the ball in his park, but the kid had serious rejection issues and insecurities that were probably enhanced/worsened by all that moving around and uprooting he was put through. He was said to have been a timid kid who grew more and more outspoken around the time of sophomore year. I'm willing to bet that's the moment when he just started with the idea that most of humanity was beneath him and not worth the damn space and time he gave them. Was he bullied? I don't doubt he was. Did he, perhaps, overreact to some of the comments and things thrown his way? I certainly wouldn't put it past him to get huffy about a tiny thing of little consequence.

Quote :

Even Dylan says "I'm going to kill you all. You've been giving us shit for years". Not to mention Dylan yelling for all people in white hats to stand up, allegedly also saying something along the lines of "this is for all the shit you've given us", but you're right as well. The things you listed in parentheses are also great arguments as to why it happened. But I've just always wondered about this in particular: in Eric's typed document that is known as "Vaccines", he writes, "someday in April me and V will get revenge and kick natural selection up a few notches". I'm wondering what the "revenge" was.

As for them being the bullies, I know there's a lot of truth to that. They had a lot of anger towards people and weren't afraid to show it. I know Eric said he makes fun of people who look like him just because he wants to make fun of himself

You know what just came to mind? That the yelling for the people with white hats (jocks) to stand up wasn't necessarily revenge on anyone in particular or for anything that happened it the past, but rather that it was meant as a show of power. How can you better establish your power in this situation than to directly attack that one group in the school that's seen as most powerful? It's not about the shit the jocks or anyone else gave them over the years at all, but it is about establishing who's boss (king of Pride Rock, you know the deal) and about finally being able to lord their godlike selves over the fearful masses. The revenge is only this: revenge on the blind sheep they were surrounded by. Revenge on anyone in a position of authority, even. What I also find interesting is how Dylan just says "kill you all" and generalises the target almost immediately, whereas Eric is wholly stuck on the "natural selection" where he decided who was worthy to live and breathe. (The bombs are a very illogical move on Eric's part in this scenario, unless he felt that nobody inside that school was worth the air they breathed. It still doesn't wholly correspond with the boy who writes that he may "save a few people".)

Your last quote is really interesting, by the way. He makes fun of people who look like him because he wants to make fun of himself. I wonder if that statement could then be altered to mean "I kill people who're like myself because I want to kill everything I am"? I've always felt that this was an issue neither boy addressed in their writings. Dylan's self-loathing was quite visible, but nowhere does he speak of utilising the 'kill' as a means to destroy the last remnants of himself. Eric's self-loathing wasn't as visible, but he too does not address the thought of killing as a means to end himself. I wonder if the thought that they were really just killing themselves long before they actually turned their guns on themselves never occurred to them. If they never stopped and determined that self-hating reason behind the targets they picked. Wouldn't that make the argument of 'revenge' even more fascinating, though? Revenge on yourself through taking revenge on others?

Another great response. Now I'm just really trying to think. I keep trying to wrap my head around why they did this, it just seems so complicated to me. I guess Columbine really was a perfect storm of circumstances, but in my mind I still read bullying as part of it, even if it's a little part. It's what I get from their writings. Even eric says it could all possibly be avoidable if he was given more compliments. I also wonder why they had beliefs of the
Being gods, and why they had to get revenge on the sheep or zombies. It's all so strange. Where did these disillusions come from?

I think that's the 'beauty' in the Columbine case: the fact that it is so very, very complicated. It's a level of complication you don't find in cases similar to this one, and I do believe Columbine was a very unique occurrence in itself. I keep trying to wrap my head around the case and every time something comes along that makes me look at everything in a new light.. I have given up trying to form a definite opinion on anything, but tentative opinions/interpretations are things I have bucketloads of at this point in time. I do believe that bullying was a component of the case, but perhaps not on the level the boys claimed it was. I don't think they were ever fully aware of some of their motivations for the massacre, even though their profession of self-awareness evidently suggests they believed they were. (And, honestly, some of the stuff Eric comes out with may be a purposeful misdirection or manipulation on his part. Columbine could never have been avoided simply by giving him more compliments. It's a push into a guilt-trip and a very loose statement to simply throw in there. I don't doubt for a second that he felt that he should be given more compliments, but he knew as well as I do that this would've have stopped the entire massacre in its tracks..)

Regarding the desillusions.. I'll try to explain some of it because I honestly had that very same mindset in my teenage years. (I don't know if it's a common theme for teenagers overall, though. I hope it's not, because it's seriously messed-up.) Feeling like you're a god among mortals is far better than feeling inadequate and stupid all the time. Explaining the great divide between yourself and your peers away by putting yourself on a pedestal is an easier thing to do than to try and come to terms with the fact that you just really don't play well with other people. A part of what made me see other people as sheep was the fact that I didn't see eye-to-eye with them on anything that interested me or that I thought was funny or anything like that. It's easier to see them as blind and stupid than it is to recognise your own outlandish worldview. Couple that with the sense that you're being ridiculed and shoved to the side because you're different from them, and you've got yourself a recipe for a desillusion so great that you won't give a damn if the sheep live or die. I fashioned myself a passive, disinterested god.. the boys fashioned themselves an active, vengeful god. I've grown out of it for the most part, but they obviously didn't. (The only time I'll put myself back on that pedestal is when something about the human race enrages me to the point of no return. I'm usually quiet and softspoken and rather nice about everything, so you can maybe imagine that my rage is a terrifying and surprising thing to encounter.. ;))

IDK, honestly. Langmann, himself, argues that bullying is hardly a cause.

I, myself, fall somewhere in the middle. Based on some of the reseach Ive seen out there, bullying seems to be a huge contributor, allthough they are not a direct cause. And they are not the only contributing factor. I think its possible that in some cases they really arent connected at all. I know that supposedly Breivik was not subjected to bullying, but he may have had experienced a few triggering events which may have shaped hes hatred. He was abused, though, by hes mother, which I believe is not a direct cause, but its a contributing factor.

As for Columbine, its pretty difficult to say. I think that there were mainly a result of two opposite personalities coming together

First off all, let me clarify that I do not condone bullying, regardless the level. Thats because it hurts people. Not only does it hurt people, but it can effect people in more ways than one.

Now, before I get into this topic, its important to clarify what bullying is and what its not. From the Wikipedia- article

Bullying is the use of force, coercion, or threat, to abuse, aggressively dominate or intimidate. The behavior is often repeated and habitual. One essential prerequisite is the perception (by the bully or by others) of an imbalance of physical or social power. This imbalance distinguishes bullying from conflict.[1] Bullying is a subcategory of aggressive behavior characterized by the following three minimum criteria: (1) hostile intent, (2) imbalance of power, and (3) repetition over a period of time.[2] Bullying is the activity of repeated, aggressive behavior intended to hurt another individual, physically, mentally, or emotionally.


So, this is not just someone throwing a mean comment.


Furthermore, we can look at the sources of information regarding bullying at Columbine and I tend to look at some of the stuff that Langman pointed out in hes research paper ' the search for truth found at Columbine', which puts into perspective both Eric and Dylan being bullied and bullying others at the same time. For instance, he mentions that some of Dylans closest friends never saw them getting bullied or picked on.

Many reported not to have seen the bullying first hand. They barely mention getting picked on in their journals. I know this, because Ive read them personally. Most of it seems to come from other students. And you find them in the Columbine reports, and different Interviews here and there. Not all of them are equally reliable as a source

IMO the January Incident was the tipping point, the point of no return in their minds. If that wasn’t it, the point of no return was definitely when they had Robin purchase the guns.

Guest wrote:

When I think about why Columbine happened, I never seem sure about how much bullying played into it. Sometimes I think it was a HUGE factor, and sometimes I barely consider it.
I really want to know what you guys think and see if I or we can come to some consensus on how much bullying played into Columbine. And I know some people don't think they even were bullied, but good sources to prove they were are:

Eric's journal and the basement tapes,
Peter Langman's compilation of people who knew them
The article "Forgiving My Columbine Highs chool Friend, Dylan Klebold"
"No Easy Answers" by Brooks Brown

And I know there are more. And I also know that listing those sources is kinda pointless since I'm sure everyone here is aware that they were bullied, but I ask: how much did it contribute to NBK? Was it really a main driving force? Would NBK have happened if they weren't bullied?

My current thought process on the causes of Columbine are that four main things caused it:

1. Mental Illness (it really is hard to say what they had, however we for sure know that Eric had some anger problems and Dylan was very depressed. I'm sure there was more to it than that though.)

2. Attitude (Them believing they were gods, which could be a result of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], their grandiosity, their hatred of all races, all people and the world)

3. Bullying (they constantly refer to revenge, sometimes they specifically talk about getting back at people who abused them. Not to mention they had 'Shit Lists'. Although it's not bullying, I would throw in failure with girls here. That definitely contributed to their isolation and anger)

4. The January arrest (Dylan outright stated this as a motive, and this arrest did bring them together in terms of a shared rage)

What do you guys think?

I dont think that this is an 'end off discussion' about bullying and Columbine, but this is written by professor Frank Ochberg and it's slightly relevant, given that he was a key expert in the case:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

IDK what he bases this argument on, and Bill Owens Columbine report have argued views to the contrary. But its relevant to the discussion, nevertheless.

'Bullying and revenge

We have too many bullies and too many youngsters at the mercy of bullies. But we also have a growing system of anti-bullying school programs. Despite rumors to the contrary, the Columbine killers were not bullied. There is no evidence that America, compared to other nations, has more bullies, more bullying, more victimization, and more victims who are ticking time bombs, hatching plots of lethal vengeance. However, we certainly can and should promote school programs that protect all children from stalking, hazing, and the new, evolving forms of abuse: Ostracism and humiliation through electronic social networks'

Guest wrote:

When I think about why Columbine happened, I never seem sure about how much bullying played into it. Sometimes I think it was a HUGE factor, and sometimes I barely consider it.
I really want to know what you guys think and see if I or we can come to some consensus on how much bullying played into Columbine. And I know some people don't think they even were bullied, but good sources to prove they were are:

Eric's journal and the basement tapes,
Peter Langman's compilation of people who knew them
The article "Forgiving My Columbine Highs chool Friend, Dylan Klebold"
"No Easy Answers" by Brooks Brown

And I know there are more. And I also know that listing those sources is kinda pointless since I'm sure everyone here is aware that they were bullied, but I ask: how much did it contribute to NBK? Was it really a main driving force? Would NBK have happened if they weren't bullied?

My current thought process on the causes of Columbine are that four main things caused it:

1. Mental Illness (it really is hard to say what they had, however we for sure know that Eric had some anger problems and Dylan was very depressed. I'm sure there was more to it than that though.)

2. Attitude (Them believing they were gods, which could be a result of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], their grandiosity, their hatred of all races, all people and the world)

3. Bullying (they constantly refer to revenge, sometimes they specifically talk about getting back at people who abused them. Not to mention they had 'Shit Lists'. Although it's not bullying, I would throw in failure with girls here. That definitely contributed to their isolation and anger)

4. The January arrest (Dylan outright stated this as a motive, and this arrest did bring them together in terms of a shared rage)

What do you guys think?

b

The basement tapes talk about abuse- 'You have been given us shit for years' and how Eric talks about having to start at the bottom of the barrell at the school- what I think is important to aknowledge is that some scholars and professors argue that mass shooters target whole institutions because they look for real or percieved slights.

Peter Langmann argues that the level of harassment towards Eric and Dylan was exaggarated. Hes reasoning comes from the suggestion that many of their friends did not see any bullying.

The Ketchup incident- this is pretty much corroborated by Sue Klebold and in Governor Bill Owens Report..
.
No Easy Answers- I cant argue with certainty how accurste Brooks Brown is in hes account. Only, hes exaggarating when he says that Dylan and Eric were at the bottom of the food chain. They had plenty of friends. This much doesnt make a whole lot of sense.

As for the other point I believe most experts have Come to the conclusion that theres a multitude of factors coming into play. Ive seen some sources that do argue that bullying tends to be a factor. Wether or not Eric Harris was a psychopath- for the record, evaluating someone is a very difficult thing to do, and I honestly feel a bit affraid of offering an opinion because Im no expert and I see this as almost waay too complicated as opposed to scientists that have studied them. In here you will find plenty of people dismissing Harris as a psychopath, but I think the question should be: Have they studied psychology, or worked with any established psychiatrist?