School harassment

I thought about the ketchup incident and then I remember moments of painfull harassment in my schooltime.

There was a girl group who didn´t like my friends and me. They called me ugly bitch and that I would never get a boyfriend. In the schoolyard they chased me. In the schoolbus they triped me up and pulled my long hair. Nothing and nobody helped me, so I changed school. There are more than this, but I can not remember all things.

There weren´t bitches, but one guy who didn´t like me. I don´t know why and i think it doesn´t matter. But on a sunny day 16 years ago, i went in my classroom (it was an old school and my classroom was in the dumps) and found a dead rat on my chair. I thought this was hate for nothing. I didn´t fight back because I never learned it.

These memories haunted me until I told the stories in a therapy. The therapist said that I am traumatised.

Do you have similar experience? Do you think Eric and Dylan were traumatized of CHS?

I am so sorry you had to endure all of that. I also went through the typical middle school and high school cattiness like all girls do. And it's really sad that life is so short and some people continue to act like their in middle school and high school even at an older age.

Based on some of the stories I've heard about E/D I believe they recieved alot of bullying and alienation during their time at CHS. Eric moreso than Dylan due to his small size, not growing up in Littleton, etc. I also think they made it very clear that buying and alienation caused them to seek revenge on CHS and the Littleton community. And according to Eric other things traumatized him as well such as the van incident and moving away from Plattsburgh.

What does attracting attention to me is, that despite of what Eric and Dylan say about their motives in the basement tapes, there is no single place in their personal writings, where they say, that bullying is the reason, why they do this.
When Eric mentions to get picked on (what he only does twice in his diary and these two mentions are just days apart), he does not say, that this is the reason, why he want to kill people. He indicates, that these incidents are consolidating his rage towards the school, not more. He is also making excuses for those, who harass him, because he does the same to others.
There is no single line in Dylans diary, where he complains to get picked on. In contrast, there are points, where he is clearly ashamed of picking on others.

And when they talk about Bullying in the Basement Tapes, what do they say? Dylans mentions, that he got picked on in during this childhood. He does not complain about CHS, he does not complain about Ken Caryl, he mentions his childhood (was it his elementary school? I dont remember). Where is the connection between Dylan getting picked on as a child and blowing up his high-school? In Dylans mind, but nowhere else.

Eric also mentions, that he got picked on in his childhood, that he was always the new boy and a loser, when he was arriving in a new town. Does he mention any bullying at CHS? Not to my knowledge.

Add this to the fact, that the statements about Eric and Dylan getting picked on are often very contradictory and I think, you can see, that Bullying was a thing, that Eric and Dylan used to justify their attacks in front of themselves, but it wasnt a really important factor.

I'm sorry you both went through this stuff. I, too, have similar experiences. Primary school was okay, aside from mountains of boredom, but the rest of my school experience wasn't so great. I switched from primary to secondary right around the time my grandmother died, so I was smack in the middle of working through my grief when I should've been occupying myself with making new friends and such. I breezed through most of my classes, but social life was awful. I can't write down much of what happened, because I don't even remember. I know the entire class turned on me at some point in their attempts to make me feel unwanted and unwelcome. I vaguely remember expressing the desire/need to seriously hurt people and my Mum's lightning-quick response to keep me home no matter what. I know that by the time I transferred to a new school the damage was done and I had to combat depression alongside a somatic disorder that made me feel really sick even though I was medically healthy. I went through a lot of therapy to get to the place I am today. The trauma runs so deep that my therapists couldn't even get to it fully, so what they've mostly done is damage control and teaching me to recognise onsets of depression and helping me move on with my life. (Basically, as long as you don't put me back in school I'm gonna be just fine. Three times a guess what my government's currently trying to get me into because I'm unemployed at the moment and haven't used up my allotted money for school? :roll:I feel like the levee's going to break between my trauma and myself if they keep this up, which really freaks me out because I have no idea what's behind the wall.)

In regards to a possible trauma the boys suffered at CHS.. it's certainly possible. CHS was a toxic environment by all accounts I've ever read, and it'd take you being in the in-crowd to be able to escape from it relatively okay. Neither of the boys were in that in-crowd. I think there was more alienation than outright bullying aimed at them, but I'm sure that this added to the existing rage and feeling of separation all the same. I think the move to Littleton kinda 'broke' Eric in a way, because he'd been happy/accepted in the other places and there was very little of that same acceptance/kindness to be found in the community at his new school in Littleton. I'm pretty sure both boys didn't feel quite at home in the community and in CHS. I don't think, however, that bullying was the main factor in why two boys decided a massacre was a good idea. It could've been a contributing one, for sure, but there are other factors involved that made this what it is.

CatherineM813 wrote:

I am so sorry you had to endure all of that. I also went through the typical middle school and high school cattiness like all girls do. And it's really sad that life is so short and some people continue to act like their in middle school and high school even at an older age.

Based on some of the stories I've heard about E/D I believe they recieved alot of bullying and alienation during their time at CHS. Eric moreso than Dylan due to his small size, not growing up in Littleton, etc. I also think they made it very clear that buying and alienation caused them to seek revenge on CHS and the Littleton community. And according to Eric other things traumatized him as well such as the van incident and moving away from Plattsburgh.

Thanks for your kind answer. I am sorry for you too. Do you know why the girls did it? In my case because I was sensitive, had good grades. And boys liked me, but only as a friend. I think teenage years might be the best time of your life, but not for me. The first time I thought about suicide was when I was 12 years old.

I believe Eric and Dylan were traumatized, but I did not think that was the only reason for their action. I think it is a puzzle, and one part was the bulling and alienation.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

What does attracting attention to me is, that despite of what Eric and Dylan say about their motives in the basement tapes, there is no single place in their personal writings, where they say, that bullying is the reason, why they do this.
When Eric mentions to get picked on (what he only does twice in his diary and these two mentions are just days apart), he does not say, that this is the reason, why he want to kill people. He indicates, that these incidents are consolidating his rage towards the school, not more. He is also making excuses for those, who harass him, because he does the same to others.
There is no single line in Dylans diary, where he complains to get picked on. In contrast, there are points, where he is clearly ashamed of picking on others.

And when they talk about Bullying in the Basement Tapes, what do they say? Dylans mentions, that he got picked on in during this childhood. He does not complain about CHS, he does not complain about Ken Caryl, he mentions his childhood (was it his elementary school? I dont remember). Where is the connection between Dylan getting picked on as a child and blowing up his high-school? In Dylans mind, but nowhere else.

Eric also mentions, that he got picked on in his childhood, that he was always the new boy and a loser, when he was arriving in a new town. Does he mention any bullying at CHS? Not to my knowledge.

Add this to the fact, that the statements about Eric and Dylan getting picked on are often very contradictory and I think, you can see, that Bullying was a thing, that Eric and Dylan used to justify their attacks in front of themselves, but it wasnt a really important factor.

I wrote in my last posting that I don´t believe it was the only reason for the massacre. But I think it was a part of a puzzle. And I will never condone their action or any otherviolence. I remember Dylan wrote he felt like an outcast, more than once. I know sometimes feelings and reality are not the same. But I think there must be something true about it.

And Eric wrote this:
"Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get
you all back, ultimate fucking revenge here."

and

" I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don’t fucking say “well that’s your fault” because it isn’t, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no no don’t let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ooh fucking nooo"

thedragonrampant wrote:

I'm sorry you both went through this stuff. I, too, have similar experiences. Primary school was okay, aside from mountains of boredom, but the rest of my school experience wasn't so great. I switched from primary to secondary right around the time my grandmother died, so I was smack in the middle of working through my grief when I should've been occupying myself with making new friends and such. I breezed through most of my classes, but social life was awful. I can't write down much of what happened, because I don't even remember. I know the entire class turned on me at some point in their attempts to make me feel unwanted and unwelcome. I vaguely remember expressing the desire/need to seriously hurt people and my Mum's lightning-quick response to keep me home no matter what. I know that by the time I transferred to a new school the damage was done and I had to combat depression alongside a somatic disorder that made me feel really sick even though I was medically healthy. I went through a lot of therapy to get to the place I am today. The trauma runs so deep that my therapists couldn't even get to it fully, so what they've mostly done is damage control and teaching me to recognise onsets of depression and helping me move on with my life. (Basically, as long as you don't put me back in school I'm gonna be just fine. Three times a guess what my government's currently trying to get me into because I'm unemployed at the moment and haven't used up my allotted money for school? :roll:I feel like the levee's going to break between my trauma and myself if they keep this up, which really freaks me out because I have no idea what's behind the wall.)

In regards to a possible trauma the boys suffered at CHS.. it's certainly possible. CHS was a toxic environment by all accounts I've ever read, and it'd take you being in the in-crowd to be able to escape from it relatively okay. Neither of the boys were in that in-crowd. I think there was more alienation than outright bullying aimed at them, but I'm sure that this added to the existing rage and feeling of separation all the same. I think the move to Littleton kinda 'broke' Eric in a way, because he'd been happy/accepted in the other places and there was very little of that same acceptance/kindness to be found in the community at his new school in Littleton. I'm pretty sure both boys didn't feel quite at home in the community and in CHS. I don't think, however, that bullying was the main factor in why two boys decided a massacre was a good idea. It could've been a contributing one, for sure, but there are other factors involved that made this what it is.

I am sorry for you too. I have the feeling we have something in common. I was cutting school so many times and I got depression. I will never hurt other, only myself. I thought the people might be right that I am a nothing. It is a miracle I got my high school diploma, but I am upset about the grades. If I didn´t hate school, I might be a better pupil. But now it is past and the only thing I can change are my feelings about all that shit.

Yes I think both boys felt that they did not fit in. I totally agree with your last sentence. There are other factors involved.

Does anyone knows more about the Tampon-incident? It was never mentioned in the diaries and videos of the two, I just heard about it at SBB.

Chad Mclauglin wrote an article Forgiving my good friend Dylan and said that one day in junior year during lunch time people threw tampons at Dylan and squirted him with ketchup. I'm not sure if Eric was there. Later on that day his mom noticed ketchup stains all over his clothing and he told her it was the worst day of his life and he didn't want to talk about what happened at school. Maybe that's what Dylan was referring to even he mentioned our wrath for January's incident will be godlike. Not to mention our revenge in the commons.

CatherineM813 wrote:

Chad Mclauglin wrote an article Forgiving my good friend Dylan and said  that one day in junior year during lunch time people threw tampons at Dylan and squirted him with ketchup. I'm not sure if Eric was there. Later on that day his mom noticed ketchup stains all over his clothing and he told  her it was the worst day of his life and he didn't want to talk about what happened at school. Maybe that's what Dylan was referring to even he mentioned our wrath for January's incident will be godlike. Not to mention our revenge in the commons.

Yes, that was really traumatic. I would hate those people, then I was like them. Full of hate and ignorance. And no understanding for people who are different from others.

em81 wrote:

CatherineM813 wrote:

Chad Mclauglin wrote an article Forgiving my good friend Dylan and said  that one day in junior year during lunch time people threw tampons at Dylan and squirted him with ketchup. I'm not sure if Eric was there. Later on that day his mom noticed ketchup stains all over his clothing and he told  her it was the worst day of his life and he didn't want to talk about what happened at school. Maybe that's what Dylan was referring to even he mentioned our wrath for January's incident will be godlike. Not to mention our revenge in the commons.

Yes, that was really traumatic. I would hate those people, then I was like them. Full of hate and ignorance. And no understanding for people who are different from others.

I couldn't imagine how embarrassing that must have been especially in front of everyone. In the Columbine Understanding Why documentary there was an interview with one of their classmates.When asked how was the TCM treated he replied that they were picked on very badly and people even threw a cup of fecal matter at them. I'm not sure if that's true and if it was to E/D. I hope it's not true.

I cant stand it when people judge those who are a bit different from the rest. Just because something is different doesn't mean it's wrong.

em81 wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

What does attracting attention to me is, that despite of what Eric and Dylan say about their motives in the basement tapes, there is no single place in their personal writings, where they say, that bullying is the reason, why they do this.
When Eric mentions to get picked on (what he only does twice in his diary and these two mentions are just days apart), he does not say, that this is the reason, why he want to kill people. He indicates, that these incidents are consolidating his rage towards the school, not more. He is also making excuses for those, who harass him, because he does the same to others.
There is no single line in Dylans diary, where he complains to get picked on. In contrast, there are points, where he is clearly ashamed of picking on others.

And when they talk about Bullying in the Basement Tapes, what do they say? Dylans mentions, that he got picked on in during this childhood. He does not complain about CHS, he does not complain about Ken Caryl, he mentions his childhood (was it his elementary school? I dont remember). Where is the connection between Dylan getting picked on as a child and blowing up his high-school? In Dylans mind, but nowhere else.

Eric also mentions, that he got picked on in his childhood, that he was always the new boy and a loser, when he was arriving in a new town. Does he mention any bullying at CHS? Not to my knowledge.

Add this to the fact, that the statements about Eric and Dylan getting picked on are often very contradictory and I think, you can see, that Bullying was a thing, that Eric and Dylan used to justify their attacks in front of themselves, but it wasnt a really important factor.

I wrote in my last posting that I don´t believe it was the only reason for the massacre. But I think it was a part of a puzzle. And I will never condone their action or any otherviolence. I remember Dylan wrote he felt like an outcast, more than once. I know sometimes feelings and reality are not the same. But I think there must be something true about it.

And Eric wrote this:
"Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get
you all back, ultimate fucking revenge here."

and

" I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don’t fucking say “well that’s your fault” because it isn’t, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no no don’t let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ooh fucking nooo"

Eric also wrote that if people treated him better, show him more respect, treated him like an actual senior, asked for his knowledge and guidance more then he wouldn't be so ready to tear their heads apart. Also in the basement tapes he mentioned people are constantly making fun of my face, my hair and my shirts. Not to sound like a fan girl but I think Eric was attractive and don't see what was wrong with his hair or shirts other than the fact that he always tucked his shirts in. But his friends did too so maybe it was a trend for guys in the late 90's.

CatherineM813 wrote:

Eric also wrote that if people treated him better, show him more respect, treated him like an actual senior, asked for his knowledge and guidance more then he wouldn't be so ready to tear their heads apart

Yes, but what he describes here, has nothing to do with Bullying. He talks about how much he wants to be someone important, someone big.

CatherineM813 wrote:

Also in the basement tapes he mentioned people are constantly making fun of my face, my hair and my shirts.

Yes, but for my knowledge, he talks about his childhood at these moment.

My harassment began in elementary school (1990 / 1991, think it was second or third class) and ended in 2000. In the year 2000 I got my high-school-diploma. Then I began job training, and again school, trade school. There was no harassment, if you did not mention sexual innuendoes from the boys and some envious girls. (I laughed about thing I didn´t see the fun of it. It is my body, my lips. Fuck you!) But I never had the feeling I fit in. It is deep inside me, never forget my experience in elementary school. In kindergarten and preschool I was a nice, sweet, happy girl. I was not shy and had no self-doubts. After elementary school I was broken.

I did not know how it fared for Eric. But I think constantly move on and finding new friends is not a great experience. I remember the change of school, all people know each other. Most of the people played handball or volleyball. I was never sporting, but in my old school I played basketball and loved it. And I had some friend, we were a group of five girls in one class, after school we got up to nonsense. In the new school I found only one or two friends. It was a lonely time, never forget. And there were more moments I regretted my change.

CatherineM813 wrote:

And according to Eric other things traumatized him as well such as the van incident and moving away from Plattsburgh.

Just have to add my .02 cent here..  The only thing I have a problem with here is that Eric was traumatized by the van incident ??  Seriously?   I think that in this particular case, Eric was the instigator of that incident.  I feel sorry for the van owner who was traumatized and shocked by the fact that his van's windows were smashed in and his equipment stolen.  I recall having an Alpine stereo blatantly stolen out of my locked vehicle twice and once in my drive way.  I was traumatized. Yeeup.  While there is no doubt that Eric had been bullied and ostracized, he isn't a victim of every single thing.  Most especially NBK.  In that case, he became The No. 1 Bully on that day.  But I digress... No one held a gun to Eric's head to make him steal stuff out of that van so that he'd end up with the repercussions of being stuck in handcuffs in the police station or spending a year in the diversion program.  Natural selection consequences!  F****r should be reprimanded.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

What does attracting attention to me is, that despite of what Eric and Dylan say about their motives in the basement tapes, there is no single place in their personal writings, where they say, that bullying is the reason, why they do this.
When Eric mentions to get picked on (what he only does twice in his diary and these two mentions are just days apart), he does not say, that this is the reason, why he want to kill people. He indicates, that these incidents are consolidating his rage towards the school, not more. He is also making excuses for those, who harass him, because he does the same to others.
There is no single line in Dylans diary, where he complains to get picked on. In contrast, there are points, where he is clearly ashamed of picking on others.

And when they talk about Bullying in the Basement Tapes, what do they say? Dylans mentions, that he got picked on in during this childhood. He does not complain about CHS, he does not complain about Ken Caryl, he mentions his childhood (was it his elementary school? I dont remember). Where is the connection between Dylan getting picked on as a child and blowing up his high-school? In Dylans mind, but nowhere else.

Eric also mentions, that he got picked on in his childhood, that he was always the new boy and a loser, when he was arriving in a new town. Does he mention any bullying at CHS? Not to my knowledge.

Add this to the fact, that the statements about Eric and Dylan getting picked on are often very contradictory and I think, you can see, that Bullying was a thing, that Eric and Dylan used to justify their attacks in front of themselves, but it wasnt a really important factor.

Very good post.

11k reports many instances of Harris and Klebold bullying others but few of them being bullied.

There is simply no evidence that revenge for bullying was a factor here.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

CatherineM813 wrote:

And according to Eric other things traumatized him as well such as the van incident and moving away from Plattsburgh.

Just have to add my .02 cent here..  The only thing I have a problem with here is that Eric was traumatized by the van incident ??  Seriously?   I think that in this particular case, Eric was the instigator of that incident.  I feel sorry for the van owner who was traumatized and shocked by the fact that his van's windows were smashed in and his equipment stolen.  I recall having an Alpine stereo blatantly stolen out of my locked vehicle twice and once in my drive way.  I was traumatized. Yeeup.  While there is no doubt that Eric had been bullied and ostracized, he isn't a victim of every single thing.  Most especially NBK.  In that case, he became The No. 1 Bully on that day.  But I digress... No one held a gun to Eric's head to make him steal stuff out of that van so that he'd end up with the repercussions of being stuck in handcuffs in the police station or spending a year in the diversion program.  Natural selection consequences!  F****r should be reprimanded.

I know Eric isn't a victim of every last thing. But him feeling traumatized by the van incident is what he wrote in the diversion questionnaire. I could see how he would feel traumatized if the butt rape rumor was true though.

The only remotely traumatising thing for him concerning the van incident is probably that he got caught doing something he couldn't spin himself out of and then had to face the music and the parents. He was such a little shit about it, too, especially in that letter where he just dumped an entire container of sticky goopy syrup out over a standard apology.. Ugh.  (Traumatised my ass. I think it riled him up, sure, and added to whatever justifications he created for himself.. but it's not a trauma.)

Concerning the bullying, there's enough evidence to suggest that they weren't without fault in this themselves. They had no trouble making fun of other people or pushing them around or whatever. They may have been subjected to stuff like the ketchup tampon incident, but I just don't know if this whole bullying deal was truly such a traumatising thing to either of them. It kinda seemed like the bullying was spread pretty evenly across the board with different groups giving one another shit. I don't doubt that there were people who made the boys feel like crap, but there are people like that everywhere you turn in life. What they saw around them and had happen to them on occasion may have fueled their disdain for the human race and 'added to the rage' some more, but that's as far as I'm willing to go in stating that the bullying was a contributing factor. There are bigger things in the factor-race than just this.

(em81, I don't want to let your earlier post to me go unmentioned.. I recognise a lot of what you're saying. I didn't get my diploma because I dropped out when I was 15, but I can certainly relate. )

Hale-Bopp wrote:

What does attracting attention to me is, that despite of what Eric and Dylan say about their motives in the basement tapes, there is no single place in their personal writings, where they say, that bullying is the reason, why they do this.
When Eric mentions to get picked on (what he only does twice in his diary and these two mentions are just days apart), he does not say, that this is the reason, why he want to kill people. He indicates, that these incidents are consolidating his rage towards the school, not more. He is also making excuses for those, who harass him, because he does the same to others.

There is no single line in Dylans diary, where he complains to get picked on. In contrast, there are points, where he is clearly ashamed of picking on others.

And when they talk about Bullying in the Basement Tapes, what do they say? Dylans mentions, that he got picked on in during this childhood. He does not complain about CHS, he does not complain about Ken Caryl, he mentions his childhood (was it his elementary school? I dont remember). Where is the connection between Dylan getting picked on as a child and blowing up his high-school? In Dylans mind, but nowhere else.

Eric also mentions, that he got picked on in his childhood, that he was always the new boy and a loser, when he was arriving in a new town. Does he mention any bullying at CHS? Not to my knowledge.

Add this to the fact, that the statements about Eric and Dylan getting picked on are often very contradictory and I think, you can see, that Bullying was a thing, that Eric and Dylan used to justify their attacks in front of themselves, but it wasnt a really important factor.

em81 wrote:

I remember Dylan wrote he felt like an outcast, more than once. I know sometimes feelings and reality are not the same. But I think there must be something true about it.

Here is the instances where Dylan mentions being ostracized or picked on:

My life is still fucked, in case you care... maybe,... (not?) I have just lost fuckin 45$, & Before that I lost my zippo & knife - (i did get those back) Why the fuck is he being such an ASSHOLE??? (god i guess, whoever is the being which controlls shit) He's fucking me over big time & it pisses me off. OOOh god i HATE my life, i want to die really bad right now

Everyone knows everyone. I swear – like I’m an outcast, & everyone is conspiring against me …

& thinking … about the asshole in gym class, how he worries me..

NBK will be the ultimate revenge, to our shitlists, the pigs, everyone!

No, Dylan doesn't go into a lot of detail but you pretty much get the gist of things with statements like this: "the asshole in gym class and how he worries me."
There are quite a few accounts in the 11K that Dylan was ostracized in gym, viewed as a 'loner', called "stretch" and "jolly green giant" by peers, and made to do bear crawls by the PE teacher in front of
everyone because he was late for class.  Always so nice when the teacher is a party to public humiliation and amplifying feelings of shame so that the classmates are free to take potshots afterward.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

What does attracting attention to me is, that despite of what Eric and Dylan say about their motives in the basement tapes, there is no single place in their personal writings, where they say, that bullying is the reason, why they do this.
When Eric mentions to get picked on (what he only does twice in his diary and these two mentions are just days apart), he does not say, that this is the reason, why he want to kill people. He indicates, that these incidents are consolidating his rage towards the school, not more. He is also making excuses for those, who harass him, because he does the same to others.

There is no single line in Dylans diary, where he complains to get picked on. In contrast, there are points, where he is clearly ashamed of picking on others.

And when they talk about Bullying in the Basement Tapes, what do they say? Dylans mentions, that he got picked on in during this childhood. He does not complain about CHS, he does not complain about Ken Caryl, he mentions his childhood (was it his elementary school? I dont remember). Where is the connection between Dylan getting picked on as a child and blowing up his high-school? In Dylans mind, but nowhere else.

Eric also mentions, that he got picked on in his childhood, that he was always the new boy and a loser, when he was arriving in a new town. Does he mention any bullying at CHS? Not to my knowledge.

Add this to the fact, that the statements about Eric and Dylan getting picked on are often very contradictory and I think, you can see, that Bullying was a thing, that Eric and Dylan used to justify their attacks in front of themselves, but it wasnt a really important factor.

em81 wrote:

I remember Dylan wrote he felt like an outcast, more than once. I know sometimes feelings and reality are not the same. But I think there must be something true about it.

Here is the instances where Dylan mentions being ostracized or picked on:

My life is still fucked, in case you care... maybe,... (not?) I have just lost fuckin 45$, & Before that I lost my zippo & knife - (i did get those back) Why the fuck is he being such an ASSHOLE??? (god i guess, whoever is the being which controlls shit) He's fucking me over big time & it pisses me off. OOOh god i HATE my life, i want to die really bad right now

Is this meant to be irony?
Dylan complains about how much he hates god- where the hell is there any connection to bullying and ostracism?
I dont want to sounds rude or discourteous, I just dont understand.

thedragonrampant wrote:

(em81, I don't want to let your earlier post to me go unmentioned.. I recognise a lot of what you're saying. I didn't get my diploma because I dropped out when I was 15, but I can certainly relate. )

I am sorry that you didn´t get your diploma. But I can understand why you didn´t get it. I hated school very much. If I didn´t hate it, I will be a better pupil. And maybe I got a better job   Do you have plans to make the diploma? I hope you´re doing better. And if you want to write me, you are welcome.

I had a friend who didn´t get a diploma, because she didn´t go to school. The reason was she hopped from school to school. And she had the feeling everbody hated her. She got a ablutomania and social anxiety. The last time I saw her, I visited her in hospital. She tried to kill herself and failed. I was helpless, I didn´t know how to act. Ok, I thought a lot about suicide, but I am gutless. And there are my friends and my family, so I can´t do it.

Here's a theory of mine -

Eric and Dylan only mention being bullied a couple of times in their diaries. But what if they left it out deliberately? It's been mentioned before about Eric wanting to have this image of himself through the diary. If he didn't want anyone to read it he would have destroyed it, but I presume he left it out in his room as if he wanted it to be found. Maybe he thought if he wrote about being bullied it would make him look weak?

Panzerjoust wrote:

Here's a theory of mine -

Eric and Dylan only mention being bullied a couple of times in their diaries. But what if they left it out deliberately? It's been mentioned before about Eric wanting to have this image of himself through the diary. If he didn't want anyone to read it he would have destroyed it, but I presume he left it out in his room as if he wanted it to be found. Maybe he thought if he wrote about being bullied it would make him look weak?

That's the way I look at it too.

But think of your own journal, if you kept one. Even if you never intended anyone else to see it, would you really sit down and write about how people are picking on you? Or would you just write "Fuck the whole world! I wish they were all dead."

Human beings have this thing called pride. People who take Eric's journal as an exact representation of his life are forgetting that.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Panzerjoust wrote:

Here's a theory of mine -

Eric and Dylan only mention being bullied a couple of times in their diaries. But what if they left it out deliberately? It's been mentioned before about Eric wanting to have this image of himself through the diary. If he didn't want anyone to read it he would have destroyed it, but I presume he left it out in his room as if he wanted it to be found. Maybe he thought if he wrote about being bullied it would make him look weak?

That's the way I look at it too.

But think of your own journal, if you kept one. Even if you never intended anyone else to see it, would you really sit down and write about how people are picking on you? Or would you just write "Fuck the whole world! I wish they were all dead."

Human beings have this thing called pride. People who take Eric's journal as an exact representation of his life are forgetting that.

Yep. Pride is right especially in boys. Girls might go into detail in their journals but guys don't want to remind themselves too much of their failing by writing a full, detailed accounted of how they were degraded. Makes them feel even more like a whiny wuss. I recall Dylan said "ok, enough bitchin." So, the most you're going to get is little snippets of their bad day and then a huge reactionary, self defensive "fuck the world!" or self offensive, in Dylan's case, with the "I want to die so bad."

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

What does attracting attention to me is, that despite of what Eric and Dylan say about their motives in the basement tapes, there is no single place in their personal writings, where they say, that bullying is the reason, why they do this.
When Eric mentions to get picked on (what he only does twice in his diary and these two mentions are just days apart), he does not say, that this is the reason, why he want to kill people. He indicates, that these incidents are consolidating his rage towards the school, not more. He is also making excuses for those, who harass him, because he does the same to others.

There is no single line in Dylans diary, where he complains to get picked on. In contrast, there are points, where he is clearly ashamed of picking on others.

And when they talk about Bullying in the Basement Tapes, what do they say? Dylans mentions, that he got picked on in during this childhood. He does not complain about CHS, he does not complain about Ken Caryl, he mentions his childhood (was it his elementary school? I dont remember). Where is the connection between Dylan getting picked on as a child and blowing up his high-school? In Dylans mind, but nowhere else.

Eric also mentions, that he got picked on in his childhood, that he was always the new boy and a loser, when he was arriving in a new town. Does he mention any bullying at CHS? Not to my knowledge.

Add this to the fact, that the statements about Eric and Dylan getting picked on are often very contradictory and I think, you can see, that Bullying was a thing, that Eric and Dylan used to justify their attacks in front of themselves, but it wasnt a really important factor.

em81 wrote:

I remember Dylan wrote he felt like an outcast, more than once. I know sometimes feelings and reality are not the same. But I think there must be something true about it.

Here is the instances where Dylan mentions being ostracized or picked on:

My life is still fucked, in case you care... maybe,... (not?) I have just lost fuckin 45$, & Before that I lost my zippo & knife - (i did get those back) Why the fuck is he being such an ASSHOLE??? (god i guess, whoever is the being which controlls shit) He's fucking me over big time & it pisses me off. OOOh god i HATE my life, i want to die really bad right now

Hale-Bopp wrote:

Is this meant to be irony?
Dylan complains about how much he hates god- where the hell is there any connection to bullying and ostracism?
I dont want to sounds rude or discourteous, I just dont understand.

I suppose you could see it that way too. I interpret it as A) a person is fucking him over with his personal missing items. B) God must be to blame for causing all of this shit to happen to him (see A.)

I will never say they are innocenct victims or something like that. I didn´t want use any harassment as excuse. I think it was the combination of mental illness and our toxic society.

There are some witness statements that Eric and Dylan teased in CHS. Yes, I know they bullied too. Think that they fight back, I was not able to fight back.

Here are the statements:

John Savage: 566: DK teased for clothes
Josh Chavez: 736: DK made fun of in gym; called “Stretch”; uncoordinated, not good at sports
Danielle Danford: 770: DK once spoke of jocks giving him trouble
Patrice Doyle: 785: both teased about trenchcoats, but mildly; teased for bowling weird; not teased until they wore trench coats; last year EH was looked up to as smart
Keith Parkison: 1,070: stayed away from EH when he and other TCM began harassing people
Joseph Ragole: 1,102: jocks picked on EH/DK in halls
Justin Baer: 1,290: jocks once picked on EH in gym, pushed him into lockers
Amy Evans: 2,961: both teased for trenchcoats on hot days
Angela Nelson: 3,896: EH occasionally harassed by jocks
David Smith: 4,454: EH teased, but not badly; others had it worse
Steve Trujillo: 4,650: heard that jocks had slammed EH and DK into lockers, but he never saw it
Scott Rathbun: 5,085: both teased previous year by kids who graduated; doesn’t understand why EH/DK would do such a thing to people who had never done anything to them
Jordan Grimm: 5,701–02: he teased DK about coat
Mr. Peter Horvath
(CHS dean): 5,708:3–4 weeks prior to attack, EH and DK said a student was mouthy to them
Susan DeWitt: 6,196: EH mad at Mike Dinkle for making fun of him (apparently this was behind EH’s back); (also noted in Susan’s report on p. 18,390: EH upset/hurt that Mike Dinkle made fun of him)
Dustin Harrison: 6,576: teased about clothes; 6577: teachers did not intervene when EH/DK were harassed in class
Dustin Thurmon: 7,261: made fun of EH/DK for trench coats in 90 degrees; taunted them in bowling class
Mollie Weksler: 7,357–58: teachers and a staff member picked on EH/DK
Frank Zirger: 7,412: if any made fun of DK, he let it roll off his back; never saw EH/DK express anger toward others
Chris Morris: 9,823: EH picked on by jocks because he was small
Mr. Robert Kirgis: 10,160/10,170: heard EH/DK mention they were picked on by jocks
[Blacked out]: 10,264: relentless in his abuse of EH during gym; EH bad in sports; others teased him, too
[Blacked out]: 10,265: had friends who taunted EH
[Blacked out]: 10,273: made fun of EH in gym; had big head on skinny body; made fun of lots of people (not just EH)
Robert Kirgis: 10,490–92: EH and DK said they got picked on because they were nerds
Mr. and Mrs. Klebold: 10,509: said DK said that EH was picked on
Kristi Epling / Alyssa Sechler: 10,718–19: EH was teased by jocks for how he dressed and his size
Cory Friesen: 10,726: he thought EH/DK were picked on constantly at school
Chris Morris: 10,834–35: EH picked on more than DK; EH depressed about his size and getting picked on
Robert Perry: 10,853: “like a lot of other TCM members, he [EH] had been constantly picked on, taunted, and had food thrown at him”
Mike Paavilainen: 16,418: EH/DK teased more in junior year by jocks who graduated in 1998; EH: teased for “heil Hitler” salute in bowling
[Blacked out]: 18,989: student had run-ins with Rocky Hoffschneider, who had also harassed EH/DK
[Blacked out]: 19,648: years ago DK made fun of because he didn’t fit in and was very odd
[Blacked out]: 19,710: he and others teased EH relentlessly in gym because he was bad at sport

Source: schoolshooters.info

I don´t think that so many people had lied. But I repeat that is no excuse, no explanation for what happend on 20th April 1999.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

What does attracting attention to me is, that despite of what Eric and Dylan say about their motives in the basement tapes, there is no single place in their personal writings, where they say, that bullying is the reason, why they do this.
When Eric mentions to get picked on (what he only does twice in his diary and these two mentions are just days apart), he does not say, that this is the reason, why he want to kill people. He indicates, that these incidents are consolidating his rage towards the school, not more. He is also making excuses for those, who harass him, because he does the same to others.

There is no single line in Dylans diary, where he complains to get picked on. In contrast, there are points, where he is clearly ashamed of picking on others.

And when they talk about Bullying in the Basement Tapes, what do they say? Dylans mentions, that he got picked on in during this childhood. He does not complain about CHS, he does not complain about Ken Caryl, he mentions his childhood (was it his elementary school? I dont remember). Where is the connection between Dylan getting picked on as a child and blowing up his high-school? In Dylans mind, but nowhere else.

Eric also mentions, that he got picked on in his childhood, that he was always the new boy and a loser, when he was arriving in a new town. Does he mention any bullying at CHS? Not to my knowledge.

Add this to the fact, that the statements about Eric and Dylan getting picked on are often very contradictory and I think, you can see, that Bullying was a thing, that Eric and Dylan used to justify their attacks in front of themselves, but it wasnt a really important factor.

em81 wrote:

I remember Dylan wrote he felt like an outcast, more than once. I know sometimes feelings and reality are not the same. But I think there must be something true about it.

Here is the instances where Dylan mentions being ostracized or picked on:

My life is still fucked, in case you care... maybe,... (not?) I have just lost fuckin 45$, & Before that I lost my zippo & knife - (i did get those back) Why the fuck is he being such an ASSHOLE??? (god i guess, whoever is the being which controlls shit) He's fucking me over big time & it pisses me off. OOOh god i HATE my life, i want to die really bad right now

Hale-Bopp wrote:

Is this meant to be irony?
Dylan complains about how much he hates god- where the hell is there any connection to bullying and ostracism?
I dont want to sounds rude or discourteous, I just dont understand.

I suppose you could see it that way too.  I interpret it as A) a person is fucking him over with his personal missing items.  B) God must be to blame for causing all of this shit to happen to him (see A.)

*shrugs* I cant see the person A).
But maybe I miss some intricacies in the text, as a non-natural english speaker.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

CatherineM813 wrote:

And according to Eric other things traumatized him as well such as the van incident and moving away from Plattsburgh.

Just have to add my .02 cent here..  The only thing I have a problem with here is that Eric was traumatized by the van incident ??  Seriously?   I think that in this particular case, Eric was the instigator of that incident.  I feel sorry for the van owner who was traumatized and shocked by the fact that his van's windows were smashed in and his equipment stolen.  I recall having an Alpine stereo blatantly stolen out of my locked vehicle twice and once in my drive way.  I was traumatized. Yeeup.  While there is no doubt that Eric had been bullied and ostracized, he isn't a victim of every single thing.  Most especially NBK.  In that case, he became The No. 1 Bully on that day.  But I digress... No one held a gun to Eric's head to make him steal stuff out of that van so that he'd end up with the repercussions of being stuck in handcuffs in the police station or spending a year in the diversion program.  Natural selection consequences!  F****r should be reprimanded.

The fact that Eric did the van-break-in voluntary, is no evidence, that he wasnt traumatized by this. I think a person can easily be traumatized by a crime, they comitted.

But besides this, I fully agree with you! I dont think, Eric was traumatized by the van-break in any form! He was offended by the arrest, his pride and self-perception was hurt, because of the fact that the great rebel did not get away with his first big crime!
Im not a psychologist of course, but for my knowledge, Eric acted in no single way, like a person, who is traumatized.
In case of his childhood-moves, its hard to suggest. I think a very sensitive person, could be traumatized by this experience.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

CatherineM813 wrote:

And according to Eric other things traumatized him as well such as the van incident and moving away from Plattsburgh.

Just have to add my .02 cent here..  The only thing I have a problem with here is that Eric was traumatized by the van incident ??  Seriously?   I think that in this particular case, Eric was the instigator of that incident.  I feel sorry for the van owner who was traumatized and shocked by the fact that his van's windows were smashed in and his equipment stolen.  I recall having an Alpine stereo blatantly stolen out of my locked vehicle twice and once in my drive way.  I was traumatized. Yeeup.  While there is no doubt that Eric had been bullied and ostracized, he isn't a victim of every single thing.  Most especially NBK.  In that case, he became The No. 1 Bully on that day.  But I digress... No one held a gun to Eric's head to make him steal stuff out of that van so that he'd end up with the repercussions of being stuck in handcuffs in the police station or spending a year in the diversion program.  Natural selection consequences!  F****r should be reprimanded.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

The fact that Eric did the van-break-in voluntary, is no evidence, that he wasnt traumatized by this. I think a person can easily be traumatized by a crime, they comitted.

But, by the same token, nor is it any evidence that he was traumatized.    And if a hypothetical  person that committed a crime should happen to become traumatized afterward *shrugs* OH well?   Karma's a bitch. Repercussions and ammends. Buck up and deal with the act they chose to commit.

I think that you and I essentially agree here that in the particular case of Eric Harris, he was not traumatized by the van theft.  My point here is that he doesn't deserve the sympathy card in this particular incident.

I suffered severe bullying/harassment, and was basically tormented all through grades 1-12. My elementary school years consisted of being physically abused by other students. I was constantly being hit, slapped, and punched by children who had severe behavioral problems, (these children were also being abused by their own parents). My middle school years consisted of horrible bullying and harassment mainly from girls, and I ended up changing schools twice because of this. (I was always the main target for bullies because I was extremely passive, extremely shy, and I never defended myself, no matter what the situation). My high-school years consisted of emotional and psychological torment from nearly everyone around me. (In my high school, I was literally known as "the girl who never talks," even by the school principal) because I got to the point of not talking to anyone, not even to the teachers. During my senior year of high school, there was a group of kids who thought it would be entertaining to completely trash my reputation and spread horribly false rumors about me throughout the school, as well as harassing me through the internet, until one day, I decided that I had endured enough harassment. I exploded in the hallway and yelled over 100+ students. (I was also nearly arrested that day because one teacher was convinced she saw me holding a gun - which I wasn't). Surprisingly enough, I did not receive any kind of punishment from the high school for doing this, because all the faculty and staff knew how badly I was being treated. (I would also like the point out that the group of kids who were harassing me were known as the "bad-ass crowd" in the school who were mean and picked on many other students, and that no one wanted to mess with).

Because of all this, I now suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, low self-esteem, and recurring nightmares of past events.

This is one of the main reasons why Columbine interests me so much; I know first-hand what it feels like to be bullied to the point of wanting to take my own life, or thinking that "death is the way out," - (as Chris Morris puts it), because I have been through it myself. I can most definitely relate to all the harassment and abuse the Trench Coat Mafia members received at Columbine, and the extreme anger they all shared as a result. I can also relate to Eric and Dylan in some aspects - in terms of being depressed and angry.

That's honestly heartbreaking and tragic. I am so sorry you had to endure all of that and hope things are going much better for you now.

Thanks, don´t worry. I learnt much about humans and they didn´t like people who are different. But I am better different than mean and heartless.

Today I read a statement from Courtney Van Dell, she was a one of Chris Morris friends. "Some of the harassment included having food thrown at her, as well as verbal abuse such as beeing called "Satan"."

No one can deny that there were many harassment at CHS.

em81 wrote:

Thanks, don´t worry. I learnt much about humans and they didn´t like people who are different. But I am better different than mean and heartless.

Today I read a statement from Courtney Van Dell, she was a one of Chris Morris friends. "Some of the harassment included having food thrown at her, as well as verbal abuse such as beeing called "Satan"."

No one can deny that there were many harassment at CHS.

I just looked her up.  She's the one that classmates referred to 'devil girl' as she wore a pair of horns on her head to school.  I recall someone else said she wore her barrettes in a way that made her hair stand up like horns.  At any rate, she claims to wear the horns but gives no explanation for it. A teacher complained to Horvath that" her mode of dress was distracting while teaching."  Interesting adornments for such a mainstream school.  No wonder she stood out.  Perhaps she wanted to? ;)

I looked at her picture too. She looked like a gothic and I think she is beautiful. I think she wanted to be different. But no want to harassed because of different looking.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

I just looked her up.  She's the one that classmates referred to 'devil girl' as she wore a pair of horns on her head to school.  I recall someone else said she wore her barrettes in a way that made her hair stand up like horns.  At any rate, she claims to wear the horns but gives no explanation for it. A teacher complained to Horvath that" her mode of dress was distracting while teaching."  Interesting adornments for such a mainstream school.  No wonder she stood out.  Perhaps she wanted to? ;)

Yes she was, there's a few interesting bits and pieces throughout the 11k about her and her friends. I'll post them tomorrow when i'm not super tired  I fail to see how her mode of dress was distracting while teaching.

em81 wrote:

I looked at her picture too.

Where did you find it? Please don't say Google, because then I'll have to get an eye test because I'm apparently blind

areyoulistening wrote:

em81 wrote:

I looked at her picture too.

Where did you find it? Please don't say Google, because then I'll have to get an eye test because I'm apparently blind

Compliments of the CHS '99 yearbook..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

areyoulistening wrote:

em81 wrote:

I looked at her picture too.

Where did you find it? Please don't say Google, because then I'll have to get an eye test because I'm apparently blind

Compliments of the CHS '99 yearbook..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thank you kindly:D  Man, she's pretty.

areyoulistening wrote:

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Compliments of the CHS '99 yearbook..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thank you kindly:D  Man, she's pretty.

I fully agree.
Courtney Van Dell was quite attractive.
I read somewhere, I believe it was in the 11K, that Courtney Van Dell shared her poetry with Chris Morris, and that they were apparently good friends. I also read that Courtney liked Chris because of his darker side.

I've written on this before at the old forum, but both boys, especially Dylan, seemed to be driven by a sense of revenge against the school. It's by no accident that Dylan walked into Columbine with a shirt inscribed with WRATH and carrying pipe bombs dubbed Vodka's Vengeance. Not to mention comments made during the shooting itself.

em81 wrote:

I looked at her picture too. She looked like a gothic and I think she is beautiful. I think she wanted to be different. But no want to harassed because of different looking.

Goth vs gothic. This can be hard to separate from each other, as even goths themselves can sometimes struggle to differ. The goth is more the subculture that originated with the 19780s and bands like Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division and Bauhaus, but I believe that they took up a lot from the gothic fiction and so on during the 1800s.

I think some people define themselves as more gothic than goth, but Ive also heard the broader term 'Dark alternative culture' or 'The black scene' being used, for goth, heavy metal, etc