Why enter the library?

It's surely been asked before, but it's one of the more troubling problems to solve in my view. Investigators seemed to all agree the library massacre was improvised and not part of the plan. Whether they had moved to "plan B" outside as most believe, or started "plan A" a little early as I believe, it seems odd for them to enter the library. The things which most stick out to me are the cafeteria being evacuated, the windows in the library and cafeteria, and their saying repeatedly that the library is going to explode. Perhaps a library full of shot and bombed corpses was "plan B" to a cafeteria full of shot and bombed corpses.

People have also mentioned their need to reload, and having a table in the library to do so. Others have speculated it was because they were isolated computer guys and had been banned from the computers there and wanted to take out some revenge on the computers, which they did shoot at and the first deaths were there.

Though Dylan lagged behind Eric in number of shots fired outside, he went in the library ahead of Eric, according to Craig Scott said he always wanted to do this as he entered, and didn't seem to lag behind in shots like he did outside.

Why do you think they entered the library? "Kill people" yes of course, but why did it happen there when that wasn't part of the plan? Simply the most available victims after failing to cut off the escape from the cafeteria? The windows to see out? A table to reload? The computers? Eric wanted to destroy Dylan's favorite bed time story? Interested to hear your thoughts.

cakeman wrote:

Why do you think they entered the library? "Kill people" yes of course, but why did it happen there when that wasn't part of the plan? Simply the most available victims after failing to cut off the escape from the cafeteria? The windows to see out? A table to reload? The computers? Eric wanted to destroy Dylan's favorite bed time story?  Interested to hear your thoughts.

I guess because you have to remember if the original plan worked, the library was meant to collapse on to the cafeteria, therefore, causing hundreds of deaths. When it failed, people in the library were then considered "easy targets" or "sitting ducks". After students in the cafeteria ran out or went into hiding places, the library was probably the second most populated area to do damage. Also, I believe in their heads any type of fighting back from students in the library wasn't expected compared to if they have entered the weights room where jocks were but then again, you wouldn't really expect that much fighting back if you had a gun pointed at you.

There is also the possibility of the library being a significant area to them. It was right in front of the senior car park. Front row. Columbine just had a $15m renovation in the school year before 1996. By the deaths and inflicting psychological damage on several students, who out of the students who survived would want to enter the library again? To know that the killers also suicided in the same area where 10 people were murdered. They may have covered the library doors with lockers after but it wasn't the same. Psychological and physical damage had already been done both in and out of the library.

I think it was just bc it was right there. Once you enter the doors that they went into, the library is right to the side not far away. They knew it would have a ton of people in it and that there really was no escape. There are not many doors out of the library so they would have a bunch of victims.

I usually think the most simple idea is the most probable and it just makes sense to me.

shadowofthewill wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Why do you think they entered the library? "Kill people" yes of course, but why did it happen there when that wasn't part of the plan? Simply the most available victims after failing to cut off the escape from the cafeteria? The windows to see out? A table to reload? The computers? Eric wanted to destroy Dylan's favorite bed time story?  Interested to hear your thoughts.

I guess because you have to remember if the original plan worked, the library was meant to collapse on to the cafeteria, therefore, causing hundreds of deaths.

Yeah, some dispute that was the plan, but I agree with you. They said it probably ten times that the library was going to explode when they were in there, so that seems part of the reason for sure. But that raises more questions. Why not just let it explode, instead of shooting people? I guess bombs and shooting together was the original plan anyway.

Also, did they know about the emergency exit? If so - and you think they would, being seniors at the school, it seems they expected the bombs to go off and kill themselves as well while they were in the library, but that seems odd. What would make the bombs explode 15 minutes later of their own volition?  There were two of them. Were they set for different times, maybe?

But I think the evidence quite probably fits that they did think they would go off eventually somehow. Consider the difference between Dylan telling John to run if he wants to live, and then later telling Evan Todd that he's going to let him live. Unless he was lying to Evan, that suggests he thought the bombs were going to kill John, but by the end they realized they weren't go to kill Evan, and instead needed to be shot at after victims had fled.

shadowofthewill wrote:

When it failed, people in the library were then considered "easy targets" or "sitting ducks". After students in the cafeteria ran out or went into hiding places, the library was probably the second most populated area to do damage. Also, I believe in their heads any type of fighting back from students in the library wasn't expected compared to if they have entered the weights room where jocks were but then again, you wouldn't really expect that much fighting back if you had a gun pointed at you.

Not sure about the first statement. It's a little ambiguous. They were easy targets, but I don't see why the bombs failing entails they were easy targets. That it was perhaps the second most populated area, I agree. But that suggests they picked the cafeteria too because of number of victims, not because of a specific hatred for the jocks, hence I don't take seriously the question of why they didn't enter the weight room.

Furthermore, Dylan, very clearly, so many times, says he hates jocks for having girlfriends and lives. It wasn't about a hatred of sports or the "cult of the athlete" in that sense. Dylan wore two sports emblems on his hat every day of his life, played fantasy baseball, and regularly visited ESPN's website to check on that. If there was a button to press to make Dylan a jock, I don't think he would've hesitated to press it. He had that "self awareness". I think it's like asking why Elliott Rodger didn't attack a weight room. Dylan was coping so hard that he had a girlfriend in his vision of the afterlife. He didn't rule over jock bullies in his vision of the afterlife.

You also already mentioned the bombs. I think that was the reason for their confidence in the library. They were going to die in the explosion anyway. That's what they kept bringing up to showcase their power. Also, I suspect, the true reason for the cops not entering. They heard what they said in the library. They were going to wait until the bombs went off. Sheriff Stone said very clearly he was worried about losing officers. I think even Eric and Dylan figured this out. They come down the steps with guns drawn after the fire breaks out in the cafeteria, I suspect expecting a shootout. Eric waves, their hand signal for "cops sighted."

shadowofthewill wrote:

There is also the possibility of the library being a significant area to them. It was right in front of the senior car park. Front row. Columbine just had a $15m renovation in the school year before 1996. By the deaths and inflicting psychological damage on several students, who out of the students who survived would want to enter the library again? To know that the killers also suicided in the same area where 10 people were murdered. They may have covered the library doors with lockers after but it wasn't the same. Psychological and physical damage had already been done both in and out of the library.

Yes, there is, such as the suggestion about computers, though I confess I never thought it was significant because of the renovations. I suppose it is possible they thought that part would not be renovated a second time, and so might live in infamy.  And yes, the 'front row seat' is what I mean by the windows. Almost surely, they return to the library to watch the car bombs, though there are those who say returning to where their victims lay was something deeper psychologically. If it was to watch the car bombs, then I suppose the windows are the likely explanation for entering the first time as well.

Lizpuff wrote:

I think it was just bc it was right there.  Once you enter the doors that they went into, the library is right to the side not far away.  They knew it would have a ton of people in it and that there really was no escape.  There are not many doors out of the library so they would have a bunch of victims.

I usually think the most simple idea is the most probable and it just makes sense to me.

Yes, that's true. Then the question becomes why did they enter the west entrance, and the above question about the emergency exit. Though I think they entered the west entrance because they planned from the start to cut off the escape of those  fleeing up the cafeteria stairs, it is hard to say what the reason is given the "plan B" narrative which says Dave Sanders stumped them when he told people to run that way.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] You made good points and yes you are correct. Bombs and shooting was the original plan. So, why not let the bombs just explode instead of shooting? Because they were poorly made. They didn't explode because the trigger wasn't triggered properly or something like that. So they resorted.
In addition, as we all know, they tried shooting at the bombs several times both in the cafeteria and from inside the library in hopes that they would go off. Maybe that was their thought, to keep shooting at it and it would eventually go off but as we know, that also failed. The emergency exit, I'm actually not too sure about but you would think if they knew about it, it would be blocked by them or at least something would've been done with it (maybe)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Evan Todd was psychological damage by that point. I really don't think they had high hopes for their bombs to go off at that time but they still had some hope and still tried. The last shootout before their suicides is probably the final attempt for them to detonate. I agree with your point that it's why the police didn't storm the building until hours later. Also, I admit my mistake, yes it was an attack against the whole school and they wanted maximum casualties, hence, the chosen areas instead of the gym.

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First off, I am only talking about the cafeteria bombs, not the car bombs. They couldn't shoot those while in the library.

Respectfully, I can't make much sense of the first part of your post. The point was one possible reason for entering the library was because the library exploding was (still) part of the plan. Indeed, as much as anything else, they said it would while they were in there. However, that makes it curious why they would shoot anyone. My only answer is, the plan was already to bomb the cafeteria and shoot people there, so they wanted that kind of carnage.  

It also raises the question: Did they think the library would explode while they were in there, or did they only mean afterwards when they shot at the bombs? If when they shot at the bombs, then they must have not known about the emergency exit, and thought their victims were cornered, but that seems to me unlikely.

Also, I think there are reasons to support that they thought the explosion was going to happen while they were in there. For example, John Savage was told to run - they didn't just avoid shooting him, that wasn't enough; yet Evan Todd was told just not shooting him would spare his life. The only way this makes sense to me is if when John ran, they still thought everybody including themselves were toast in the coming explosion; but when Evan was spared, they recognized they needed to shoot at the bombs. Indeed, Eric's mood seems changed then.  Witnesses also said the entered  the library with an unsuspected confidence, and the cops never entered the building, yet had a phone call hearing what they said which included that the library was exploding soon. Maybe the library's coming explosion made them confident, and the cops scared.

Then again, they threw crickets and pipe bombs into the cafeteria before then, presumably hoping the bombs would explode.

"Maybe that was their thought, to keep shooting at it and it would eventually go off but as we know, that also failed."
Almost certainly. As certain as I am about anything. As certain as I am that it took place on 4/20/1999. What else, taking target practice with the bombs? In Doom and Duke Nukem and other video games they played things like that explode if you shoot them.

As for blocking the emergency exit, their plan was not like Virginia Tech. It was the opposite. Remember, they didn't want to seal people in the school, they wanted people to flee the exits and to pick them off from outside.

I tend to think maximum casualties came first, and only later did they apply any kind of school-specific grievances like a revolution of the dispossessed, etc. But I think why they wanted casualties in the first place has more to do with Eric's wish to be a free animal and Dylan to get revenge for being an incel (and die). "Natural Selection" and "Wrath".

cakeman wrote:

did they know about the emergency exit? If so - and you think they would, being seniors at the school,

These were the same lame-brains that thought that propane tanks would work like explosive barrels in Doom. I know where I'm placing my bet.

QuestionMark wrote:

cakeman wrote:

did they know about the emergency exit? If so - and you think they would, being seniors at the school,

These were the same lame-brains that thought that propane tanks would work like explosive barrels in Doom. I know where I'm placing my bet.

I see where you're coming from, but my bet is on the other side. That was only once the bombs failed, and they had never shot at a propane bomb (not just a tank) before. They had been in the school every day and the library often. A high school senior is going to know his school's layout, even if he can't distinguish a video game from reality. Also, their intricate plan revolved around the exits. They probably looked at maps of the school. They were also computer savvy types, so probably spent a good deal in the library, and in the dial-up days a good deal looking around the library. I also imagine it was smaller than it seems, like in the fire department video rather than the diagrams. Plus the victims seemed to know about it.

The only extra point possibly in your favor, in my opinion, is John Savage running out of the entrance, rather than grabbed and told to run out the emergency exit. But they were busy killing, may have not cared which exit he used, may have not wanted to draw attention to the emergency exit, and it may have been John's fault that he ran out the entrance not theirs.

Also, if they didn't know about the emergency exit, how is Dylan letting "the fat fuck live" in the case of Evan Todd?  Once the bombs exploded in the Doom scenario you give, he was toast. If they knew about the emergency exit, and thought the bombs were going to explode when Savage was let go, but resigned to the fact they needed a kick when Todd was allowed to live, then that makes sense. At least to me. Along with saying the library is going to explode again and again, that's the point I come back to.

cakeman wrote:

Also, if they didn't know about the emergency exit, how is Dylan letting "the fat fuck live" in the case of Evan Todd?  Once the bombs exploded in the Doom scenario you give, he was toast.

Perhaps they assumed he would've left by the time they decided to detonate the cafeteria bombs?

I know where you're coming from, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to believe that Eric and Dylan were willing to use themselves as living bait for the police. I'm not saying it's impossible. Just that I'm not sold on it. Not yet. Perhaps because I simply don't give Eric and Dylan enough credit in the smarts department.

QuestionMark wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Also, if they didn't know about the emergency exit, how is Dylan letting "the fat fuck live" in the case of Evan Todd?  Once the bombs exploded in the Doom scenario you give, he was toast.

Perhaps they assumed he would've left by the time they decided to detonate the cafeteria bombs?

I know where you're coming from, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to believe that Eric and Dylan were willing to use themselves as living bait for the police. I'm not saying it's impossible. Just that I'm not sold on it. Not yet. Perhaps because I simply don't give Eric and Dylan enough credit in the smarts department.

I am probably not as polite as I should be, but you along with sabratha, screamingophelia, et al are the dissenting opinions I respect. Living bait for police is an interesting way to put it. Not sure I believe it either, but I think it's on the table, as well as their believing they and the other students would die from the explosion taking out the library.

If they thought Evan would leave by the time the bombs exploded, they would've thought the same about John Savage. But they told him to run, to get the hell out of the library. Then when Eric wants to go down to the commons, unlike previously when he tells everybody they were going to die, Dylan tells Evan Todd he is going to live. I can't let that go.

cakeman wrote:

I am probably not as polite as I should be, but you along with sabratha, screamingophelia, et al are the dissenting opinions I respect.

Thanks man.

cakeman wrote:

Living bait for police is an interesting way to put it.

Yeah, I sort of got the term from the movie Tremors 2 (a film Eric purportedly liked). In the film the protagonists are hunting down a bunch of giant sandworms, so reasoning that since the worms hunt by sound, they can act as their own bait in order to draw them in.

I loved these movies as a kid.

cakeman wrote:

Not sure I believe it either, but I think it's on the table, as well as their believing they and the other students would die from the explosion taking out the library.

Yeah, I'm just thinking to myself that if you're right, the "live bait" explanation is the one that makes the most sense out of their actions. They shoot a few kids, the cops rush in, then the bombs go off, causing max casualties.

cakeman wrote:

If they thought Evan would leave by the time the bombs exploded, they would've thought the same about John Savage. But they told him to run, to get the hell out of the library. Then when Eric wants to go down to the commons, unlike previously when he tells everybody they were going to die, Dylan tells Evan Todd he is going to live. I can't let that go.

Well the difference is that Eric and Dylan stayed in the library a couple minutes after telling John to run, whereas they left the library after sparing Evan. It's possible that maybe they wanted to make sure a stray bullet or pipe bomb didn't hit him in their shooting spree. If this is any indication it seems like they didn't truly care if Evan lived or not (Eric didn't even acknowledge him), so it's also possible that if he died in the coming explosion they weren't going to be shedding tears over it.

Quite a few paths to take with this one. But that's why I like these discussions.

QuestionMark wrote:

Well the difference is that Eric and Dylan stayed in the library a couple minutes after telling John to run, whereas they left the library after sparing Evan. It's possible that maybe they wanted to make sure a stray bullet or pipe bomb didn't hit him in their shooting spree. If this is any indication it seems like they didn't truly care if Evan lived or not (Eric didn't even acknowledge him), so it's also possible that if he died in the coming explosion they weren't going to be shedding tears over it.

Quite a few paths to take with this one. But that's why I like these discussions.

I should have also added Eric's interaction with Bree. No need to kill her, "We're gonna blow up the school anyway". John Savage told to run, because if he stayed he would die, in the explosion.  But "I'm gonna let the fat fuck live" to Evan. Not "we're gonna blow him up anyway". Something has changed.  

As for John, it is indeed possible they meant a stray bullet or pipe bomb, but I don't buy that. Other witnesses say they told him to get out of here because the school was exploding, and others say it was leave if you want to live. He had to leave because everybody in there was supposed to die, not because they couldn't avoid shooting him or cared if he got injured as collateral damage. Would not be surprised if it was calculated so somebody could tell their story.

I know acolumbinesite and the dialogue between them. And indeed they leave after sparing Evan. They leave to shoot at the bombs to make them explode. Not earlier. They also don't head straight to the bombs. They set fire to a storage room supposedly. Also had the bombs exploded when they shot them, most agree they would've died in the explosion. Certainly if they expected the library to come down, and they say they did repeatedly.

I think at least one possible accounting for all these facts is that they were prepared to die along with everybody else in the library when the bombs exploded which, despite not exploding at 11:17 or 11:20, they still expected to go off without any further prompting for some reason. Maybe one was set for 11:17 and the other later (why Eric shot at one and not the other?), or maybe the timers weren't the only thing which could set them off (the cops mention "the possibility of" motion activators on the diversion), but for whatever reason, I think they did.  They tell everybody they're gonna die in the explosion. They tell Bree she's gonna die in the explosion. They tell John to run lest he die in the explosion. But they get weary there's been no explosion, no cops, and with Eric's nose and the adrenaline wearing off, they realize the bombs aren't going to go off. They are going to have to shoot at the bombs if they want them to explode, and at least destroy some of the school and themselves, but that will mean most of the library escapes. Dylan doesn't kill Evan. They don't head straight for the bombs. They set a room on fire and shoot into some rooms first. I'm not sure if they were consciously "live bait", but that also nicely says why the cops did not enter a library given they said it was exploding, as well as why they entered the library with confidence.

I have no other accounting for these facts. Still I admit it's possible they thought the people in the library were cornered. I would not have to include that they thought the bombs would explode after the time had passed for some reason, or that they were going to die in the explosion. But that means they did not know about the emergency exit, and I think most high school seniors would know where the exits are, and especially when you plan to shoot people fleeing from the exits. It also means "I'm gonna let this fat fuck live" was a lie, and a weird one since surely he heard Dylan screaming that they were going to blow up the library a few minutes before. You don't usually lie after yelling the truth a few minutes ago. And when they shot at the bombs, they were going to die in an explosion anyway. And they didn't hurry to the bombs, which I think you would if you felt they were cornered, lest they run out the library's main entrance while you're pissing away the time.

The other possibility is they never thought the bombs were going to get the people in the library, despite saying they would and despite shooting at the bombs soon after. Maybe they just used their dud bombs as a thing to talk about to have people stand up, the other thing they kept saying in the library. "You better get up, the library's going to explode" or something like it is something they said as well. Shooting people fleeing was the original plan after all, but then again so were bombs. It's a bit weird to do the "we have a bomb" when you don't, but go ahead and build actual bombs. That's a bit too much thinking on their feet for me. Also their drawings show taking out the pillars in the cafeteria was on their mind. Even if their bombs weren't capable of bringing down the library, I doubt they knew that.

All of these has its pitfalls, but "they were weirdly confident and thought they didn't need no stinking timers to have bombs go off eventually" is my choice at the moment.

cakeman wrote:

As for John, it is indeed possible they meant a stray bullet or pipe bomb, but I don't buy that. Other witnesses say they told him to get out of here because the school was exploding, and others say it was leave if you want to live. He had to leave because everybody in there was supposed to die, not because they couldn't avoid shooting him or cared if he got injured as collateral damage. Would not be surprised if it was calculated so somebody could tell their story.

Oh I think it was almost definitely because they wanted a witnesses to spread the word. In the movie Natural Born Killers the protagonists always leave a witness behind to spread word of their crimes, so I think it's highly likely that Eric and Dylan were consciously copying that model by sparing John.

I know acolumbinesite and the dialogue between them. And indeed they leave after sparing Evan. They leave to shoot at the bombs to make them explode. Not earlier. They also don't head straight to the bombs. They set fire to a storage room supposedly. Also had the bombs exploded when they shot them, most agree they would've died in the explosion. Certainly if they expected the library to come down, and they say they did repeatedly.

cakeman wrote:

I think at least one possible accounting for all these facts is that they were prepared to die along with everybody else in the library when the bombs exploded which, despite not exploding at 11:17 or 11:20, they still expected to go off without any further prompting for some reason. Maybe one was set for 11:17 and the other later

It's possible that one was set for later, but in that case wouldn't JeffCo had said something about it then? Maybe the timers get destroyed after they shot and burned the propane bomb so much? Hm.

cakeman wrote:

And they didn't hurry to the bombs, which I think you would if you felt they were cornered, lest they run out the library's main entrance while you're pissing away the time.

That is a good point which I hadn't considered. Perhaps they were looking for cops, or expecting their arrival?

QuestionMark wrote:

Oh I think it was almost definitely because they wanted a witnesses to spread the word. In the movie Natural Born Killers the protagonists always leave a witness behind to spread word of their crimes, so I think it's highly likely that Eric and Dylan were consciously copying that model by sparing John.

Yeah, exactly, then doesn't that make it more likely he was gonna die if he stayed there? If he stayed, he wouldn't be spared. Seems to me either one has to say they were hell bent on shooting every last person in there and changed their minds after letting John go, or it's exactly what they said - the bombs.

QuestionMark wrote:

It's possible that one was set for later, but in that case wouldn't JeffCo had said something about it then? Maybe the timers get destroyed after they shot and burned the propane bomb so much? Hm.

Why would they? They don't have the best reputation for competence or honesty, and had a lot of asses to save and excuses to make and copycats to dissuade.

Good point on the timers. Have you seen the picture of the bomb they shot at? The clock is in the picture, and it isn't set to any recognizable time to do with the massacre. It appears set to 9:35. And did they shoot at the other one with the clock supposedly set for 11:17? I don't think so.

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QuestionMark wrote:

That is a good point which I hadn't considered. Perhaps they were looking for cops, or expecting their arrival?

You know that's the answer I prefer for the "wandering" period, and their getting "bored" with killing students, but not sure if they were looking just yet. In the period after they shoot at the bombs, I think they must have. As for before, but after the library massacre, I think they could well have been, but the CNN diagrams, which I confess turn out to be pretty crap on a few things, have them setting the fire in the storage room and shooting into another classroom over by the science area. If I had to guess, I would say it had to do with Dave Sanders being the one victim inside not in the library, and trying to make the room he was in blow up or get on fire too, and trying to kind of hurry and shoot up a classroom as the original plan dictated before shooting at the bombs and killing themselves.  But those seem weird actions if they are expecting the people in the library to die rather than escape.

If not before, in between the times we see them in the cafeteria, I think it must have been looking for police. Remorse nor having the time of your life by shooting a wall make sense to me. And that was before I saw the blown up version of Eric's gesture as Dylan descends the cafeteria stairs, with gun drawn. He appears to be waving. Look at what that was in their hand signals - it was "cop sighted".  In between shooting at the bombs and trying to make them explode, and their running away when the fire starts, another interesting change of heart, they may have realized the cops aren't entering until the bombs explode.  That makes a lot more sense to me than "set up a perimeter and do nothing was the protocol in ye olde days" or "it was just confusing", and why they usually don't hesitate with other shooters without bombs.

cakeman wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

Oh I think it was almost definitely because they wanted a witnesses to spread the word. In the movie Natural Born Killers the protagonists always leave a witness behind to spread word of their crimes, so I think it's highly likely that Eric and Dylan were consciously copying that model by sparing John.

Yeah, exactly, then doesn't that make it more likely he was gonna die if he stayed there? If he stayed, he wouldn't be spared. Seems to me either one has to say they were hell bent on shooting every last person in there and changed their minds after letting John go, or it's exactly what they said - the bombs.

Pretty much.

cakeman wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

It's possible that one was set for later, but in that case wouldn't JeffCo had said something about it then? Maybe the timers get destroyed after they shot and burned the propane bomb so much? Hm.

Why would they? They don't have the best reputation for competence or honesty, and had a lot of asses to save and excuses to make and copycats to dissuade.

That's true. It's possible that if Eric and Dylan really did set the bombs for radically different times (perhaps the second one was a back-up) and that information got leaked, it could give the next killer a gruesome idea.

cakeman wrote:

Good point on the timers. Have you seen the picture of the bomb they shot at? The clock is in the picture, and it isn't set to any recognizable time to do with the massacre. It appears set to 9:35. And did they shoot at the other one with the clock supposedly set for 11:17? I don't think so.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I'm afraid the picture you posted isn't showing up properly for me.

cakeman wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

That is a good point which I hadn't considered. Perhaps they were looking for cops, or expecting their arrival?

You know that's the answer I prefer for the "wandering" period, and their getting "bored" with killing students, but not sure if they were looking just yet. In the period after they shoot at the bombs, I think they must have. As for before, but after the library massacre, I think they could well have been, but the CNN diagrams, which I confess turn out to be pretty crap on a few things, have them setting the fire in the storage room and shooting into another classroom over by the science area. If I had to guess, I would say it had to do with Dave Sanders being the one victim inside not in the library, and trying to make the room he was in blow up or get on fire too, and trying to kind of hurry and shoot up a classroom as the original plan dictated before shooting at the bombs and killing themselves.  But those seem weird actions if they are expecting the people in the library to die rather than escape.

Well the problem with the idea of them attacking a classroom as a sort of way of sticking to the original plan is that quite a while after Eric and Dylan left the library, before and after shooting at the cafeteria bombs, they could see students through windows and didn't fire on them. Now it makes sense for them to be saving their ammunition for a shoot-out (which they actually attempted prior to their suicides), and also fits with the fact that at least Eric felt that simply shooting people had grown boring. So I don't think they were deliberately targeting a classroom, at least not to kill people in.

The CNN diagrams could just be junk too. There's a good reason lots of people consider it to be a cruddy source of information.

I think the key to understanding this would come from knowing the exact, actual times the duo set their bombs for. If they set one bomb to explode ten or twenty minutes after the first as a sort of back-up plan, then I think everything starts falling into place very well.

QuestionMark wrote:

That's true. It's possible that if Eric and Dylan really did set the bombs for radically different times (perhaps the second one was a back-up) and that information got leaked, it could give the next killer a gruesome idea.

Yes, the police often play coy with a bombing case.

It seems to me when you plan for that long it makes sense to have something like "day 1) lets plant the two bombs at this time, day 2) actually lets plant one for that time and one at another time if we're going to have two."

I can imagine a similar thing happening for shooting from the parking lot. Day 1) lets have the cafeteria caught in a cross fire day 2) actually let's be on the stairs and put someone at the west entrance in case people turn around, you can fire at either exit with one gun from the side anyway at the bottom of the stairs, and very little of the cafeteria is by the south entrance.  More than I can imagine that happening in two minutes.

QuestionMark wrote:

I'm afraid the picture you posted isn't showing up properly for me.

Shoot. It's just the pictures on Cullen's site

QuestionMark wrote:

Well the problem with the idea of them attacking a classroom as a sort of way of sticking to the original plan is that quite a while after Eric and Dylan left the library, before and after shooting at the cafeteria bombs, they could see students through windows and didn't fire on them. Now it makes sense for them to be saving their ammunition for a shoot-out (which they actually attempted prior to their suicides), and also fits with the fact that at least Eric felt that simply shooting people had grown boring. So I don't think they were deliberately targeting a classroom, at least not to kill people in.

The CNN diagrams could just be junk too. There's a good reason lots of people consider it to be a cruddy source of information.

Yeah that's true. I'm not sure they fired into any classrooms, frankly. Unless we count the rooms behind the library counter.

Also, yes, at least that's the usual story, but also the classrooms were locked. Eric did mention going room by room in the same document with "gonna be like OKC Vietnam WW2 Duke and Doom" whatever and crashing the planes into NYC.  I do recall accounts of them tying bombs to the door handles, which if true suggests they did try to get in, they just did not think to shoot the locks.

And yeah I know, little value but for nostalgia in the CNN diagrams, but not sure what else to use for the orthodox tale of where they went in between the library and the cafeteria. It has this

QuestionMark wrote:

I think the key to understanding this would come from knowing the exact, actual times the duo set their bombs for. If they set one bomb to explode ten or twenty minutes after the first as a sort of back-up plan, then I think everything starts falling into place very well.

Doesn't it? Then they would have thought the library was going to explode. Then there's no Plan B of "shoot everything that moves (but outside, not in the cafeteria which they planned to be at its fullest) when the bombs fail". Then there's a better explanation for how they eventually got bored with the library massacre. I think those are some of the big ones given simplistic answers otherwise.

Though it calls into question the timing for the diversion and car bombs if it's true. There were two of those as well.

cakeman wrote:

It seems to me when you plan for that long it makes sense to have something like "day 1) lets plant the two bombs at this time, day 2) actually lets plant one for that time and one at another time if we're going to have two."

I can imagine a similar thing happening for shooting from the parking lot. Day 1) lets have the cafeteria caught in a cross fire day 2) actually let's be on the stairs and put someone at the west entrance in case people turn around, you can fire at either exit with one gun from the side anyway at the bottom of the stairs, and very little of the cafeteria is by the south entrance.  More than I can imagine that happening in two minutes.

Yeah, the plan seemed to change every now and then, and the majority of it seemed like it wasn't written down, so if Eric or Dylan decided "hey, let's set bomb B to go off twenty minutes after bomb A" a day or two (or even a week or a month) before the killings, it probably would've happened without anyone except the both of them (and of course later the police) knowing.

cakeman wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

I'm afraid the picture you posted isn't showing up properly for me.

Shoot. It's just the pictures on Cullen's site

Ah, ok.

I think the discrepancy might be because the time that the bomb clock was set to didn't necessarily need to be set to 11:17 or something like that. Just let the big hand and little hand fall into the right place at the right time, and voila, explosion.

cakeman wrote:

Eric did mention going room by room in the same document with "gonna be like OKC Vietnam WW2 Duke and Doom" whatever and crashing the planes into NYC.  I do recall accounts of them tying bombs to the door handles, which if true suggests they did try to get in, they just did not think to shoot the locks.

And yeah I know, little value but for nostalgia in the CNN diagrams, but not sure what else to use for the orthodox tale of where they went in between the library and the cafeteria. It has this

The pair tying bombs to the door handles might not have ben attempts to break-in, but attempts at booby-trapping the doors. Again, this would be something only Eric and Dylan + maybe the police would know, I think.

cakeman wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

I think the key to understanding this would come from knowing the exact, actual times the duo set their bombs for. If they set one bomb to explode ten or twenty minutes after the first as a sort of back-up plan, then I think everything starts falling into place very well.

Doesn't it? Then they would have thought the library was going to explode. Then there's no Plan B of "shoot everything that moves (but outside, not in the cafeteria which they planned to be at its fullest) when the bombs fail". Then there's a better explanation for how they eventually got bored with the library massacre. I think those are some of the big ones given simplistic answers otherwise.

Though it calls into question the timing for the diversion and car bombs if it's true. There were two of those as well.

I think the diversion bombs were set for the same time, since those had (partially) gone off together.

We know that at least one of the car bombs were set for noon or close to it. I do know Dylan's car bomb was set for like 11:00 PM or something like that. IDK if that was a mistake on his part or a calculated attempt at causing more casualties.

QuestionMark wrote:

Yeah, the plan seemed to change every now and then, and the majority of it seemed like it wasn't written down, so if Eric or Dylan decided "hey, let's set bomb B to go off twenty minutes after bomb A" a day or two (or even a week or a month) before the killings, it probably would've happened without anyone except the both of them (and of course later the police) knowing.

Yeah, and I can imagine the timing  and plan getting more complex over time. Like the addition of the diversion.

QuestionMark wrote:

Ah, ok.

I think the discrepancy might be because the time that the bomb clock was set to didn't necessarily need to be set to 11:17 or something like that. Just let the big hand and little hand fall into the right place at the right time, and voila, explosion.

Not sure what you mean here. The clock is set to 9:35 because it was two hours behind or something?

QuestionMark wrote:

The pair tying bombs to the door handles might not have ben attempts to break-in, but attempts at booby-trapping the doors. Again, this would be something only Eric and Dylan + maybe the police would know, I think.

I don't follow that. Supposedly, they tied them to the door and lit them, not booby-trapping the door. If they didn't light them, then maybe that's true.

QuestionMark wrote:

I think the diversion bombs were set for the same time, since those had (partially) gone off together.

We know that at least one of the car bombs were set for noon or close to it. I do know Dylan's car bomb was set for like 11:00 PM or something like that. IDK if that was a mistake on his part or a calculated attempt at causing more casualties.

As I recall, one aerosol canister triggered one pipe bomb to partially explode. I don't think they went off together, as only one went off.

Dylan's car bomb wasn't set to 11 pm.  People say that he set the am/pm wrong, but it makes no sense. We have footage of Dylan's car bomb being disrupted. It was daylight.  Also he wouldn't  set it for 11 am, before the massacre began.

And yeah one was set to noon, but we don't know about the other one, and for the above reasons it might be reasonable to expect it was at a different time.

cakeman wrote:

Not sure what you mean here. The clock is set to 9:35 because it was two hours behind or something?

Basically.

cakeman wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

The pair tying bombs to the door handles might not have ben attempts to break-in, but attempts at booby-trapping the doors. Again, this would be something only Eric and Dylan + maybe the police would know, I think.

I don't follow that. Supposedly, they tied them to the door and lit them, not booby-trapping the door. If they didn't light them, then maybe that's true.

Huh. That one I didn't know.

cakeman wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

I think the diversion bombs were set for the same time, since those had (partially) gone off together.

We know that at least one of the car bombs were set for noon or close to it. I do know Dylan's car bomb was set for like 11:00 PM or something like that. IDK if that was a mistake on his part or a calculated attempt at causing more casualties.

As I recall, one aerosol canister triggered one pipe bomb to partially explode. I don't think they went off together, as only one went off.

In that case it could be possible that the diversion bombs were set to different times too. And really that would make a disturbing amount of sense; get one to blow up, all the first responders come by, then the second bomb goes off in their faces.

cakeman wrote:

First off, I am only talking about the cafeteria bombs, not the car bombs. They couldn't shoot those while in the library.

Respectfully, I can't make much sense of the first part of your post. The point was one possible reason for entering the library was because the library exploding was (still) part of the plan. Indeed, as much as anything else, they said it would while they were in there. However, that makes it curious why they would shoot anyone. My only answer is, the plan was already to bomb the cafeteria and shoot people there, so they wanted that kind of carnage.  

Ah, I see. For the car bombs, maybe they could've attempted to shoot at the trunk? but it does seem like a far stretch. What I meant by the first part, was probably since the cafeteria bombs didn't go off on time (since they were probably poorly made) they just resorted to their guns to get carnage, therefore the decision to enter the library. Also, the statement "they said it would while they were in there" probably turned into 'they hoped it would go off'. I'm not sure if they had that same confidence as time went by.

cakeman wrote:

It also raises the question: Did they think the library would explode while they were in there, or did they only mean afterwards when they shot at the bombs? If when they shot at the bombs, then they must have not known about the emergency exit, and thought their victims were cornered, but that seems to me unlikely.

As for blocking the emergency exit, their plan was not like Virginia Tech. It was the opposite. Remember, they didn't want to seal people in the school, they wanted people to flee the exits and to pick them off from outside.

Then again, they threw crickets and pipe bombs into the cafeteria before then, presumably hoping the bombs would explode.  

Again, referencing my above reply, after the bombs didn't go off on due time, Eric and Dylan probably had just hoped the bombs would go off. With or without victims. Maybe just create physical damage and leave an impact but I would've suspected they would've liked for it to go off when they were in the library and when that failed, attempts to create physical damage were probably their next option.

Secondly, that is true. They did want to pick off people fleeing, however, when plans don't go to plan, sometimes you you have to improvise. While obviously the goal was to pick off fleeing people, they couldn't do that if the bombs didn't detonate. They had to start shooting for people to start fleeing.

cakeman wrote:

Also, I think there are reasons to support that they thought the explosion was going to happen while they were in there. For example, John Savage was told to run - they didn't just avoid shooting him, that wasn't enough; yet Evan Todd was told just not shooting him would spare his life. The only way this makes sense to me is if when John ran, they still thought everybody including themselves were toast in the coming explosion; but when Evan was spared, they recognized they needed to shoot at the bombs. Indeed, Eric's mood seems changed then.  Witnesses also said the entered the library with an unsuspected confidence, and the cops never entered the building, yet had a phone call hearing what they said which included that the library was exploding soon. Maybe the library's coming explosion made them confident, and the cops scared.

This point seems plausible. Especially in the time period back then. I'm curious about this phone call, though. Who made the call? Were they inside the school?
But yes, in all, I understand where you're coming from with the bombs exploding while they were in the library. The hope that the bombs would go off while they were in the library is also possible to be aligned that that is the reason they didn't shoot everyone in the library, despite having enough ammunition to do so.

cakeman wrote:

I tend to think maximum casualties came first, and only later did they apply any kind of school-specific grievances like a revolution of the dispossessed, etc. But I think why they wanted casualties in the first place has more to do with Eric's wish to be a free animal and Dylan to get revenge for being an incel (and die). "Natural Selection" and "Wrath".

Like I said in my previous post, I agree that it was about maximum casualties. We know Dylan used it for him to "be free" and all the carnage was his built up rage acting. So, in a sense they were feeling his wrath. Eric and Dylan already felt like they had a "god complex" and therefore randomly shooting people in the library made them feel more power over other students.

QuestionMark wrote:

Huh. That one I didn't know.

I'm not sure whether it comes from the 11k or it's just one of those false things people say in the books, like Eric telling the jocks to stand up at the library entrance for instance, but I'm positive it's been said.  Also I have to imagine they tried the doors, it had just been long enough since the massacre began for them to be locked.

QuestionMark wrote:

In that case it could be possible that the diversion bombs were set to different times too. And really that would make a disturbing amount of sense; get one to blow up, all the first responders come by, then the second bomb goes off in their faces.

Yes, and it seems too amateurish and lazy even for teenagers to plan for a year with two bombs, both of which you are confident will work, and then have them go off at the same time.

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I don't think the idea that they "hoped" the bombs would explode in the library can be sustained. They yelled that the library was going to explode. They said it to each other. Eric didn't shoot Bree because everybody was going to die in the explosion anyway. John better run or else he will die in the explosion.

I am talking about Patti Nielson's phone call from inside the library. Cops were criticized because they did not enter the library for hours when they could hear them. Makes sense when what they were hearing was that they had bombs.

Maximum casualties probably gives us our answer for why they shot people in the library despite expecting the bombs to explode and take out the library. The cafeteria would take a good deal of the explosion, and they didn't want anybody alive, except one to tell the story.  But the bombs did not explode, and that was the main act, so they got bored with the shooting, and went down to shoot at the bombs.  Police were surely on their minds as well. I think the bombs are the only reason that wasn't on their mind before.

Which again leads to the question I find important: Did they know about the emergency exit? Did they think the victims in the library were cornered, and would die when they shot at the bombs? Why didn't they hurry to the bombs?

Assuming they did know, and that even if they didn't people could run out the main library entrance, and take a left out the west entrance, so they could not waste time. It seems to me they had given up on killing everybody in the library by that point.  This gels with Dylan telling Evan he is going to let him live.  That doesn't make sense if he's going to die in the explosion, does it?

So the next question I have is whether they expected to die when the bombs exploded, or if they were hoping it would make the cops enter.  If you expect the bombs to explode from shooting at them like it's Doom, it seems to me you expect to die in the explosion. They also get awfully close to them. Dylan even goes right up to them.

Then again, others point out those style of bombs take a minute to "heat up" before exploding, and when Dylan gets the fire started, they run away from the bombs. Then they walk around the school - almost surely looking for cops I feel. It seems to me they figured out that cops weren't coming until the bombs went off.  When they come back to the cafeteria, their guns are drawn - hence the infamous picture, and Eric waves which is their signal for "cops sighted".

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Thanks for clarifying about the phone call, it makes sense now. As for the emergency exit question, we will never know if they did know about it. We can only hypothesise if they did vs. if they didn't. And even then, both possibilities lead to a stack of potential scenarios (including your questions if they thought the victims were cornered etc.)  

I have a feeling that they did want to die if the bombs exploded as their escape plans were too far stretched (although Dylan's end game was suicide). Now, I'm not sure if they had any knowledge of police protocol at the time but if they didn't, it's probable they wanted to make the police enter. I think the police protocol and your previous points about the information of the upcoming explosion of the library on the phone also delayed them entering of the school, thus wanting to make police enter wouldn't work. As you said earlier, the officer stated he didn't want to risk losing his men.

Besides that, I can see where you're coming from with the point about maximum casualties, the emergency exit of the library and the explosion. And yes, by the time they got to Evan Todd, it seems they weren't interested in killing anymore. I'm still not 100% convinced that they were certain the bombs would explode by that point. Why waste time after the library and shoot random objects instead of going straight there? I think they were coming to the realisation that maybe they weren't going to go off. But in saying that I do agree and understand where you're coming from with your points.

I don't tend to tap out with "we'll never know", I think you can make logical inferences based on the facts and find out.

Also, if question mark and I have put our heads together and found out the second bomb was set to go off at 11:35, and Cullen missed it despite publishing the pictures, then I think it makes a lot of sense. The library massacre is supposedly 11:29 to 11:36. You couldn't script it better to make it look like they gave up on the bombs at 11:35, but not before.

Not just "they weren't interested in killing any more", though maybe that too, but that's not the point. They said by not shooting Evan they were letting him live while everybody before that was they will die in the explosion anyway.  They didn't just let John live, they told him to run like hell. They told Bree and everybody else the library was going to explode; that there was no 'letting them live'. The whole point is that shows only then, when Evan was held at gunpoint, did they think the bombs had failed, but not before.  That's what made me initially realize "they started shooting when the bombs failed" is crap.

" I think they were coming to the realisation that maybe they weren't going to go off." Maybe, but I don't think so. Why return to the bombs at all, then? Just the opposite it seems to me. They thought maybe they would go off if only they messed with them, shot at them, threw a molotov cocktail at them, etc.

I tend to think any bit about police protocol at the time is just an excuse and the bombs were the real reason the police stayed outside. The police protocol narrative says that they treated it like a hostage situation rather than a murder spree. But did they? When did they ever try to negotiate? And again, they had the phone call, which would end any speculation about which it was. Stating that he didn't want to lose men seems to me to admit it was the bombs, not the hostage situation. I think Eric and Dylan even figured that out, and are expecting a shootout when they come down the cafeteria stairs for the last time.

Regardless, even if the cops are telling the truth, which I don't buy for a minute, there's no way in hell Eric and Dylan could have guessed the cops would stay outside, and they definitely wanted to have killed cops that day.

cakeman wrote:

I don't tend to tap out with "we'll never know", I think you can make logical inferences based on the facts and find out.

This is where we differ. I tend to think and wonder about all the potential scenarios, hence the things I stated in my previous post but I do see where you're coming from. However, I'm always open to ideas and accepting them so I'll leave it at that

cakeman wrote:

Also, if question mark and I have put our heads together and found out the second bomb was set to go off at 11:35, and Cullen missed it despite publishing the pictures, then I think it makes a lot of sense. The library massacre is supposedly 11:29 to 11:36. You couldn't script it better to make it look like they gave up on the bombs at 11:35, but not before.  

I tend to think any bit about police protocol at the time is just an excuse and the bombs were the real reason the police stayed outside. The police protocol narrative says that they treated it like a hostage situation rather than a murder spree. But did they? When did they ever try to negotiate? And again, they had the phone call, which would end any speculation about which it was. Stating that he didn't want to lose men seems to me to admit it was the bombs, not the hostage situation. I think Eric and Dylan even figured that out, and are expecting a shootout when they come down the cafeteria stairs for the last time.

Good point.

cakeman wrote:

Not just "they weren't interested in killing any more", though maybe that too, but that's not the point. They said by not shooting Evan they were letting him live while everybody before that was they will die in the explosion anyway.  They didn't just let John live, they told him to run like hell. They told Bree and everybody else the library was going to explode; that there was no 'letting them live'. The whole point is that shows only then, when Evan was held at gunpoint, did they think the bombs had failed, but not before.  That's what made me initially realize "they started shooting when the bombs failed" is crap.

Alright, fair points.

cakeman wrote:

" I think they were coming to the realisation that maybe they weren't going to go off." Maybe, but I don't think so. Why return to the bombs at all, then? Just the opposite it seems to me. They thought maybe they would go off if only they messed with them, shot at them, threw a molotov cocktail at them, etc.

Like I said, it was only a maybe they thought it wasn't going to go off. Just maybe. So now, that obviously leaves the point of returning to the bombs. Yes, based on evidence they did return and tried to mess with them to get them to detonate. For me, for them to return, it was a final try; I really don't think you'd give up so easily on something you see that you worked so hard and long on.

cakeman wrote:

Regardless, even if the cops are telling the truth, which I don't buy for a minute, there's no way in hell Eric and Dylan could have guessed the cops would stay outside, and they definitely wanted to have killed cops that day.

Oh, definitely. It was a part of their plan to try and kill/wipe out as many emergency services personnel

shadowofthewill wrote:

Like I said, it was only a maybe they thought it wasn't going to go off. Just maybe. So now, that obviously leaves the point of returning to the bombs. Yes, based on evidence they did return and tried to mess with them to get them to detonate. For me, for them to return, it was a final try; I really don't think you'd give up so easily on something you see that you worked so hard and long on.

It seems to me in either scenario, where they are confident they can make the bombs go off, or they are just giving it one final, possibly futile try, that they wouldn't do anything but head straight to the bombs if they had not already given up on killing everybody in the library. It's about, given either scenario, what did they expect to get from the bombs? Kill the victims in the library, or just to destroy the school and/or make cops enter and/or kill themselves?

It seems to me it cannot be the first option given they must have known about the emergency exit and that they don't head straight to the bombs.

However, they could not have made it more clear that they thought everybody in the library was going to die a few minutes earlier. Perhaps it was a teacher who pointed out the emergency exit, and students didn't regularly know about it. Perhaps they seem to dick around in the science wing to check their backs before they go down into the cafeteria. But even still they seem to take way too long. Unless they thought everybody in the library was so frightened that they could not move, it would be easy to go out the front door and take a left out the west entrance - where they stood to begin the massacre surely because it was shielded from the bombs.

shadowofthewill wrote:

Oh, definitely. It was a part of their plan to try and kill/wipe out as many emergency services personnel

Yeah, and given they weren't psychic and anybody would fear being ambushed by cops in their situation, I think it would be odd if their e. g. going down the art hall was not to find cops on the other side.

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This curious bit about the diversion makes a lot more sense now, doesn't it?

"  The examination of the diversionary devices by bomb technicians provided immediate critical information about the sophistication of the devices and the possibility of motion activators attached to the bombs.  That information was relayed to the command post, the SWAT teams and the bomb technicians responding to the scene at the high school."

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Never made sense to just hope people would walk by. Makes perfect sense if that's the second of the two diversions.

Also seems another slip of the tongue that police staying outside wasn't about hostages and protocol, but about fear that the school explodes when you enter, which makes a lot more sense.

cakeman wrote:

 It's about, given either scenario, what did they expect to get from the bombs? Kill the victims in the library, or just to destroy the school and/or make cops enter and/or kill themselves?

It seems to me it cannot be the first option given they must have known about the emergency exit and that they don't head straight to the bombs.

However, they could not have made it more clear that they thought everybody in the library was going to die a few minutes earlier. Perhaps it was a teacher who pointed out the emergency exit, and students didn't regularly know about it. Perhaps they seem to dick around in the science wing to check their backs before they go down into the cafeteria. But even still they seem to take way too long.

These are interesting points and I think you might be right. They should've at least known where the emergency exit was, considering they spent majority of their time in the library in their first year/years. There's also the possibility they might've had a look to see if there were any in the first place or how many, like they did with the cameras but I don't think they did. Probably just common knowledge to know that there was one

cakeman wrote:

 Unless they thought everybody in the library was so frightened that they could not move, it would be easy to go out the front door and take a left out the west entrance - where they stood to begin the massacre surely because it was shielded from the bombs.

I wouldn't say that it would've been a safe place if the bombs went off. I would be thinking about the debris  falling in different directions from the top floor or maybe somehow the shrapnel would reach that far.

shadowofthewill wrote:

cakeman wrote:

 Unless they thought everybody in the library was so frightened that they could not move, it would be easy to go out the front door and take a left out the west entrance - where they stood to begin the massacre surely because it was shielded from the bombs.

I wouldn't say that it would've been a safe place if the bombs went off. I would be thinking about the debris  falling in different directions from the top floor or maybe somehow the shrapnel would reach that far.

On top of the stairs? Nah I feel pretty confident at least one of the reasons they stood there to start is it shielded them from the bombs. You are home free if you get out the west entrance without being shot at.  The emergency exit was probably more dangerous as far as the bombs are concerned.

Consider this picture. I cropped out Rachel and Daniel's dead bodies in case that was an issue. The library and cafeteria doesn't even begin until well after the stairs. You'd have to step over Daniel to get there. Got six windows worth of rooms between you and the bombs even if they took out every single library and cafeteria window.
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cakeman wrote:

 On top of the stairs? Nah I feel pretty confident at least one of the reasons they stood there to start is it shielded them from the bombs. You are home free if you get out the west entrance without being shot at.  The emergency exit was probably more dangerous as far as the bombs are concerned.

Consider this picture. I cropped out Rachel and Daniel's dead bodies in case that was an issue. The library and cafeteria doesn't even begin until well after the stairs. You'd have to step over Daniel to get there. Got six windows worth of rooms between you and the bombs even if they took out every single library and cafeteria window.
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Oh. My bad. I wasn't sure how big propane bombs actually exploded, so I did a little video research after. It's not that big but it should've been enough to damage to the pillars and whatever was surrounding it. Also, thanks for using the image, it helps visualise just a small portion of how big the space actually was

shadowofthewill wrote:

cakeman wrote:

 On top of the stairs? Nah I feel pretty confident at least one of the reasons they stood there to start is it shielded them from the bombs. You are home free if you get out the west entrance without being shot at.  The emergency exit was probably more dangerous as far as the bombs are concerned.

Consider this picture. I cropped out Rachel and Daniel's dead bodies in case that was an issue. The library and cafeteria doesn't even begin until well after the stairs. You'd have to step over Daniel to get there. Got six windows worth of rooms between you and the bombs even if they took out every single library and cafeteria window.
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Oh. My bad. I wasn't sure how big propane bombs actually exploded, so I did a little video research after. It's not that big but it should've been enough to damage to the pillars and whatever was surrounding it. Also, thanks for using the image, it helps visualise just a small portion of how big the space actually was

Yeah lots to say about that picture. Looks like a massive building for a high school on tv, but I'm told it's smaller in person. Regardless, even with larger bombs I'd feel pretty safe with the six-window cube thing between me and the cafeteria.

Research into the bombs is not something I've really done as much as try to infer what I can by reconciling what seem like contradictions in the story. But because of that I'd be very interested in how big and loud they would be. Would they have expected to hear them up by the stairs? If not, then they probably thought they had gone off already when they began shooting. If so, then they probably thought they would in the next minute. And would glass and flame have been shot out into the parking lot, and how far? If as far as their cars, then all the worse for the "plan B" narrative which already collapses when you realize they thought bombs were still part of the plan while in the library.

Also supposedly the fire truck got stuck in the mud or they were going to use it to breach the west entrance in case doing so triggered a bomb, the fire truck full of water would take most of it. If that's true, another reason why I think the "ye olde police protocol" stuff is hogwash.

cakeman wrote:

Research into the bombs is not something I've really done as much as try to infer what I can by reconciling what seem like contradictions in the story. Would they have expected to hear them up by the stairs? If not, then they probably thought they had gone off already when they began shooting. If so, then they probably thought they would in the next minute. And would glass and flame have been shot out into the parking lot, and how far? If as far as their cars, then all the worse for the "plan B" narrative which already collapses when you realize they thought bombs were still part of the plan while in the library.

They should've been able to hear it had it gone off. In the videos I had seen of propane bombs exploding, they varied in size. So there's a possibility it would've destroyed the windows but I don't think it would've reached their cars.

cakeman wrote:

Also supposedly the fire truck got stuck in the mud or they were going to use it to breach the west entrance in case doing so triggered a bomb, the fire truck full of water would take most of it. If that's true, another reason why I think the "ye olde police protocol" stuff is hogwash.

I don't think the fire truck would be there in the first place, if the bombs had gone off and they started shooting from the west entrance. But yes, in saying that it's true. Remember one bomb partially exploded but it was quickly extinguished by the sprinklers

FWIW, supposedly nothing partially exploded, just the gas in the gas can attached to the bomb was lit. Can see the charred gas can in the photo.

Not talking about the cafeteria bombs with the fire truck. The cops didn't know the main bombs were in the cafeteria until 2 days later. Had they known, they never would have gone in there. The cafeteria bombs weren't triggered by the west entrance doors, they were triggered by timers. The fire truck was because they feared pipe bombs or similar would be triggered by the west entrance doors, as I recall.

cakeman wrote:

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This curious bit about the diversion makes a lot more sense now, doesn't it?

"  The examination of the diversionary devices by bomb technicians provided immediate critical information about the sophistication of the devices and the possibility of motion activators attached to the bombs.  That information was relayed to the command post, the SWAT teams and the bomb technicians responding to the scene at the high school."

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Never made sense to just hope people would walk by. Makes perfect sense if that's the second of the two diversions.

Also seems another slip of the tongue that police staying outside wasn't about hostages and protocol, but about fear that the school explodes when you enter, which makes a lot more sense.

Yeah, it jives with the idea of them wiring the bombs differently to get more people. Max casualties and all that.

QuestionMark wrote:

cakeman wrote:

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This curious bit about the diversion makes a lot more sense now, doesn't it?

"  The examination of the diversionary devices by bomb technicians provided immediate critical information about the sophistication of the devices and the possibility of motion activators attached to the bombs.  That information was relayed to the command post, the SWAT teams and the bomb technicians responding to the scene at the high school."

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Never made sense to just hope people would walk by. Makes perfect sense if that's the second of the two diversions.

Also seems another slip of the tongue that police staying outside wasn't about hostages and protocol, but about fear that the school explodes when you enter, which makes a lot more sense.

Yeah, it jives with the idea of them wiring the bombs differently to get more people. Max casualties and all that.

I should also throw in Daniel Mauser trying to stop Eric, if he indeed did so. A bizarre decision at that moment according to the usual story, but not if what they said clued him in to that being the moment when it was die in the explosion or do something.

Also the "still with me?" heard by Kreutz. Krabbe makes that when they enter the second time and about the suicide to have it make sense to him, but that's not what Kreutz says. It makes sense if they were gonna die at 11:35 when the library exploded.

One more thing. Dylan's quote: It will be "the most nerve-racking 15 minutes of my life, after the bombs are set and we're waiting to charge through the school. Seconds will be like hours. I can't wait. I'll be shaking like a leaf."

I've speculated before this meant 15 minutes of shooting people until they turn around, which then causes them to enter the west entrance and cut off their escape. I still think that might be the case, but now it makes a lot more sense. The first bomb was 11:20, the second bomb was 11:35. The most nerve-racking 15 minutes of my life. Also seems to suggest they may have meant the second bomb to kill them all along.

I read its that they wanted to watch the car bombs they set detonate, and the library being on the second floor and covered in windows, it would've been a prime place to see. Also it wouldve been the most densley populated area after the cafeteria. But the fact that they went there to kill conflicts the udea they let many people live so i might suggest that it was recently done up in 1996, eric and dylan hating the school wanted to hit the school hard financially, i think i read it was a multi million do up of the school, so wanted to cause damage to the most school property as possible, there were books, computers, etc, dylan slammed a chair on the table above patty nielson, so maybe it was to cause damage, but i think it was more spontaneous than premeditated - they were expecting it to collapse and i doubt they were ready for it not to

arg wrote:

I read its that they wanted to watch the  car bombs they set detonate, and the library being on the second floor and covered in windows, it would've been  a prime place to see. Also it wouldve been the most densley populated area after the cafeteria. But the fact that they went there to kill conflicts the udea they let many people live so i might suggest that it was recently done up in 1996, eric and dylan hating the school wanted to hit the school hard financially, i think i read it was a multi million do up of the school, so wanted to cause damage to the most school property as possible, there were books, computers, etc, dylan slammed a chair on the table above patty nielson, so maybe it was to cause damage, but i think it was more spontaneous than premeditated - they were expecting it to collapse and i doubt they were ready for it not to

Watching the car bombs is probably the best guess for why they return to the library, before committing suicide. At least one of them was set for noon. I'm not sure that makes much sense for why they enter the first time.

They killed the majority of their victims in the library, obviously. I don't see the conflict. I think again you like many others are missing the crucial aspect that they said probably ten times that the library was going to explode - which also means that they began shooting outside "when the bombs failed" is nonsense. They definitely thought everybody in the library was going to die. The first person they let live - or rather, don't shoot - in the library is Bree, and Eric is very clear why. Because she will die when the library explodes anyway. Only when Dylan spares Evan at the end is it mentioned he will live, and not die in the explosion.

Consider that they didn't have two bombs needlessly go off at the same time, but one set later, for 11:35, and tell me that doesn't resolve the conflict. When they enter at 11:29, they are going to try and kill everybody in the library by shooting a bunch and then having the rest die in the explosion, and probably kill themselves as well, and maybe if the police rush in they will also die. Bree you're gonna die in the explosion. John, you better run if you want to live.   When 11:35 rolls around, curses, we better get to the commons, shooting people with no explosions is boring, and there's nothing stopping the cops, and we are supposed to be dead by now.

Hitting the school financially is interesting and possible, but I find it hard to believe as a conscious goal. I have to think it had more to do with hitting the part with the most people and the front facing part of the school for tv cameras etc, and that those are just the likely places for renovations.

Jerald Block finds the computers and Dylan hitting the desk with a chair and so forth relevant. He thinks they resented being isolated computer nerds, and that's why the first people they kill are at the computers. I doubt this, but it's an interesting thought. Presumably if it were true, the plan would have always been to have entered the library, but that doesn't seem the case.

That it was the most densely populated area after the cafeteria, and above the cafeteria so they expected it to collapse, are big ones. Consider that they told people to get up and run, and almost everybody agrees it was to shoot them.  While likely true, that's not quite good enough an explanation. A real shame people focused on what they said about jocks and God and blacks ten times more than they focused on saying the library will explode and telling people to get up.  This seems the real "plan B'. They couldn't shoot people fleeing the cafeteria after the first bomb, so they shoot people fleeing the library before the second bomb. Since they were standing in the library, they couldn't do it after the second bomb, they'd be dead, but this also meant nobody had any reason to run. Still they tried to tell them they should because they had a bomb.

Also considering all the people they just missed out in the hall way, I wonder if people had just ran out the library entrance how many would have made it anyway. They were not blocking their path, standing in the entrance, as is usually depicted, but over by the computers and windows.