Do you think that bullying played a huge role?

Columbine was not exatly revenge against "bullies" , they wrote about taking revenge against "society"


Let's not forget that they were bullied by random strangers because of their coats.




Harris wrote twice that "everyone" was always making fun of him, sometimes directly in his face, and that he would get revenge.


Dylan Klebold : Society is tightening its grip on me, & soon I & will snap. We will have our revenge
on society, & then be free


Dylan Klebold : . NBK
will be the ultimate revenge, to our shitlists, the pigs, everyone!


Their target was "everyone" because they were bullied by RANDOM STRANGERS - They felt rejected and hatefull against others





So i think that bullying played a huge rage

Bullying was a factor, but I don't think it was that huge, as the media often portrays it. I don't even think that Dylan ever was really bullied.
When I read their diaries, I find very little about bullying. Dylan does not mention it at all, Eric on just two occasions, who are just a few days apart.
Their writings clearly show two disturbed individuals with many traits who are not that rare itself, but taken to an extreme level. Sure, depression, rage and paranoia are common among adolescents. It is not common, however, that these feelings turn into a complete ideology, which even justifies murder.
Also, the direct trigger for starting the plan, obviously was that they got caught for the Van-Break in. Had that incident anything to do with Bullying? No.
Does bullying explain, why two teenagers feel justified to commit Mass Murder, because they got caught committing a crime? No.
Does E+Ds Personality can explain this? Yes.

Eric and Dylan were not two normal children who turned into murderers because of bullying. They were two disturbed, disordered Teenagers who slowly lost contact with reality. The fact, that they got harassed was something that, among many other factors let them grow an intense hate and partly inspired them to choose the school for their attack. Nothing less and nothing more.

Dylan Klebold wrote:

Society is tightening its grip on me, & soon I & will snap. We will have our revenge
on society, & then be free

He wrote that shortly after his arrest for the Van-Break in and I think he is referring to that.

I am sure that bullying or social problems played a big part, but wasnt the only factor. Now, maybe they weren't very bullied like other people but they were never very accepted and they had problems to fit in, the hate to the society is a result of this and I think that not only the van incident made them decide to do NBK, but also a lot of resentment against society and the school for all the social problems that they had, however, it wasnt the only reason to did it, a mental illness could played a big part too.

I'm 100% sure it did.
I remember watching it on TV as it went down, I told my buddy "I bet they were picked on relentlessly and just snapped".

I will always find it hard to believe bullying wasn't a factor in this shooting..

Brooks Brown years down the line will still say they were the bottom 2 in school? who really knows better than the guy who hung around with them/seen them most days of his teenage years.

Ive heard story's about Dylan being called Stretch in Gym class other remarks about his height. Wasn't there an episode with both of them in the cafeteria where they had stuff chucked at them with no one to help? The wall of Jocks video is just another clear vision that they got it, Eric puts his head straight down when they come around the corner, if that isn't a sign of fear i don't know what is. Im sure there is plenty more examples im missing or hasn't popped into my head yet.

No matter what someone has wrote or what the media have picked up on, it wont change my perception. I believe they were bullied big time and definatley not the "bullies" before the shooting occurred.

I still think that the "wall of jocks" video means nothing at all.  Brooks is wrong.  There is no flailing of arms at all.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I still think that the "wall of jocks" video means nothing at all.  Brooks is wrong.  There is no flailing of arms at all.

Why or in what is he wrong?, he was in the school and saw things that we didnt right?, do you mean that he is lying or exaggerating?. The video maybe doesnt mean anything but we all know the culture in the schools and many of his testimonies could be true.

Uh, he's wrong about exactly what I just said he's wrong about: the video.

sergeant hartman wrote:

Uh, he's wrong about exactly what I just said he's wrong about: the video.

Ahm ok, I misunderstand it then but if it is about the video. Why do you think that he is wrong about it?

I was referring more to Eric's reaction at first site of the group. A reaction to feeling targeted perhaps?

Agreed on the flailing of arms, i never saw anything land on any of the group who were recording.

Absolutely. I whole heartedly believe that was the start of it all.

As a depressive kid I will say this. You can't use bullying as the word to describe what most kids go through. I think Dylan was deeply emotional And had a family which was described as "clinical" I think this, the rejection from peers, bullying and other factors turned him into what he was.

Eric... eric is a harder nut to crack for me. I think the shyness, the moving... I think it all contributed to his anger.

They were both suicidal. I think Brooks said it best when he said that he felt that Dylan had had enough and just wanted to go out with a bang (yes I know bad pun).

I mean. Most people try to find some cause that isn't someone else having a hand in what they did. But the problem is... MANY people impacted these kids and yes, being treated poorly by ANYONE will have a negative impact on a kid. I think the whole of littleton is to blame.


Being Canadian I had no idea this was such a bible belt type of area. And I think this had an impact as well. Literalists can be quite cruel to people who are different. I read somewhere that people had thrown rocks at Eric and Dylan outside of school. Kind of reminds me of how extremists have treated people of color in the past.

midema wrote:

=I think the whole of littleton is to blame.

Really? The entirety of Littleton? How can you blame people who never met Eric and Dylan?

The city has an atmosphere. Just like my city has an atmosphere. Certain areas are more accepting of outsiders than others. Big cities tend not to have as many crimes such as these.

It isn't so much the people. I don't blame individuals. But I do blame the sort of small town mentality that the collective seems to have had.

Midema made an interesting point here. The town could had something to do with it too. Small towns are different, the people has the chance to see more of each other than in a big city, the people in a small town is more closed-minded too Eric seemed to never fit in at Littletown for those reasons and it could affected him too, Dylan always lived there but he was different to all his peers and is possible that after all he was different to all the people from there. I always asked myself why in the schools of my small town the kids were more cruel than in the one of a big city where I was one year and it shows that between small and big towns the people could be very different from each other and the atmosphere is different. It is not an excuse to kill people but it could be another factor in these cases.

midema and Mj2beat,

I was born, raised, and still live in a larger city.

However, my first high school (that I left and then transferred to another, better high school during my senior year) was situated in a very un-accepting, judgmental, wealthy suburb outside of my city. The majority of the school population was from this suburb and other suburbs that surrounded my city. Some of us city "trash" were there, but most of them were these suburbanites who thought they were infinitely superior to us.

This is where the bulk of my abuse (in my teen years) came from. And interestingly, the only people that I even vaguely got along with that were natives of these suburbs were severely ostracized "weirdos" who were never accepted in their towns.

So, a lot of this is very valid. Particularly considering the fact that Columbine High School was like my former high school "on steroids"---- because the likelihood is high that everyone that attended that school were from these small towns/suburbs in that region.

At least at my high school there was some VAGUE "diversity" with us city "scumbags" being part of the student body. And it was UTTERLY insane there, so I cannot imagine the scope of it at Columbine High School.

(Also, the narrow minded idiocy that I encounter now at my place of work as a grown adult (that I discussed before) comes from people that were born, raised, and still live in small towns. Interesting, isn't it?)

midema wrote:

It isn't so much the people. I don't blame individuals. .

Well, alright. The way you worded it made it sound like you were saying that your average person in Littleton should feel some sort of guilt towards the massacre.

Sergeant:

In some ways yes and some ways no. They can't personally be responsible if they never encountered them but each person contributed to the city's overall mentality. Culture is created by the people in it. If you encourage your child or peer to be closed minded then yes you are contributing to that atmosphere.

I agree with Tfsa about the "wealthy suburb" mentality being a problem. I went to a private school for my first two years of hs (middle school years for you US folk) and it was horrendous. There was no middle class. It was you are popular or nothing.

IE:

POPULAR GROUP 1
POPULAR GROUP 2
POPULAR GROUP 3
SOMEWHAT LESS POPULAR GROUP

THE LOSERS AND NEWS

THE NOBODIES...

I wonder why I changed schools.

midema wrote:

As a depressive kid I will say this. You can't use bullying as the word to describe what most kids go through. I think Dylan was deeply emotional And had a family which was described negative impact on a kid. I think the whole of littleton is to blame.


Being Canadian I had no idea this was such a bible belt type of area. And I think this had an impact as well. Literalists can be quite cruel to people who are different. I read somewhere that people had thrown rocks at Eric and Dylan outside of school. Kind of reminds me of how extremists have treated people of as "clinical" I think this, the rejection from peers, bullying and other factors turned him into what he was.

Eric... eric is a harder nut to crack for me. I think the shyness, the moving... I think it all contributed to his anger.

They were both suicidal. I think Brooks said it best when he said that he felt that Dylan had had enough and just wanted to go out with a bang (yes I know bad pun).

I mean. Most people try to find some cause that isn't someone else having a hand in what they did. But the problem is... MANY people impacted these kids and yes, being treated poorly by ANYONE will have a color in the past.

Fantastic points here Midema! I agree with you almost entirely, except I blame both the community with the population's attitudes and the atmosphere it creates and many specific individuals themselves.

I just noticed my phone had fun:

What i meant was being treated poorly will impact someone no matter who that is.

I think the moving was the biggest factor , he had probably social anxiety and bullying made it much worse and he started hate what he was afraid of - PEOPLE .



As i said , Eric Harris was not a "classic" psychopath like claims Cullen , He was not born this way - but his social anxiety and bullying pushed him over edge.




He hated people because he felt rejected by them , he was afraid of them and his "narcistic rage" was only his mental defence...


Some people are born narcistic and some are CREATED !

I don't believe bullying was the cause of Columbine. Eric and Dylan did not target bullies in the shooting. When explaining their own motivations, they did not cite revenge for bullying as a primary cause, though Eric did mention teasing in two journal entries. In the 11K, 17 people, including Robyn Anderson, say they never saw Eric or Dylan harassed. 20 or so say they saw them picked on for their clothes, while others mention that the harassment was "mild" (only one says it was "relentless").

By contrast, 28 people, including Chris Morris (8897) and Devon Adams (10616), say that Harris and Klebold bullied others.

When people say Eric and Dylan were motivated by bullying, they are projecting their own feelings onto Eric and Dylan. Millions of kids are bullied. Millions move. But none of those kids do this. Therefore, bullying and moving were not the cause.

That's your opinion. Some of us don't agree. Eric and Dylan also spoke about their treatment in the basement tapes.I think that being bullied and treated badly started their rage and hatred .Then over time , it built up and became more intense. They started to hate more and more people until finally they came to believe that most people were the same way and started to hate much of humanity itself. This may be hard for people who have never been through it to accept or believe this but if you've been through it, its easy to understand how it happens. This is exactly what happened to me and others.

Agree Paintitblack.... I was an outcast in school and learned to hate people. I was an outcast because I chose to listen to metal Pantera Slayer , Megadeth, Metallica before they became widely accepted. I can't count how many fights I got into in high school because I dressed different, listened to the wrong kind of music ect.
Sad thing is this hatred and distrust of people is embedded in me all thanks to high school. I choose to have a small group of friends and not associate with many people. I have learned that this is the type of person I am (I don't like anyone when I meet them) so my coping to live a "normal" life is I will give you a few times hanging out and try to know you.

Regarding bullying not being the cause of school shootings:

Despite what many American authors say there are hundreds it not thousands of articles exploring the subject. These are written by Psychologists and Psychiatrist and some include interviews with surviving school shooters. The ones I have read to date all state the same thing: the shooters were social outcasts who lacked many social skills.


I think the most damaging in the case of Eric and Dylan is exclusion and the fact that they did not have a strong support system.

Many of the articles also point to a triggering event as well.

I think that bullying played a role, but I read Eric's journal and think, "This kid has lost his mind."  Did people bully him into wanting all gays to be killed?

midema wrote:

Regarding bullying not being the cause of school shootings:

Despite what many American authors say there are hundreds it not thousands of articles exploring the subject. These are written by Psychologists and Psychiatrist and some include interviews with surviving school shooters. The ones I have read to date all state the same thing: the shooters were social outcasts who lacked many social skills.


I think the most damaging in the case of Eric and Dylan is exclusion and the fact that they did not have a strong support system.  

These are very good points, midema.

There is still a distinct difference between Eric and Dylan and most school shooters (not necessarily all, because I have not read ALL of the stories about every school shooter at this point).

That difference is:

*The length of time they planned this.

*The scope of what they ACTUALLY intended to do (BLOW UP the school; the shooting portion of this was initially supposed to be an "after effect", I suppose you could say. They planned on shooting people at a distance as they were fleeing the explosion they thought was going to occur. They ended up improvising when the bombs failed to detonate).

*The fact that they were a duo.

A large majority of the others may have planned it in their minds way ahead of time, and perhaps a few days prior (like Cho making his videos/manifesto etc.), but for over a year? That is quite different. And again, the fact that they did this as a duo. That really stands out in the context of this subject.

But many people don't seem to understand that even though these two did have people who liked them, or seemed to like them, in that environment in that community and school, they were considered very strange, and that can be "classified" as being outcasts, at least somewhat.

I also agree 1000000000000% with the point that they didn't have social skills, and there does seem like there was exclusion, and I don't think the support systems were strong at all, if they even existed. I feel that they didn't think that they could talk about how they felt concerning these instances and issues because I think everyone wrote it off with the "oh, everyone goes through this. It'll all be over once you get out of there", when it actually doesn't get much better. A large majority of people continue to behave in the same way even as "adults". (I discussed this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] as well. The thread linked also discusses the same question posed here in this thread).

And another thing that springs to mind to possibly support this is the fact that Susan DeWitt stated in the 11K that Eric talked to her about how a certain person was bothering him because he had basically hurt his feelings/was talking behind his back. This is a girl he had come to really like, and the only girl who hadn't entirely shunned him or wrote him off after spending a small amount of time talking to him or hanging out with him. For him to want to vent something like that to a girl who was alone with him at his house, when he was aching for female attention, says quite a lot in my mind. He really needed to vent about it to someone and possibly get some sort of feedback from them; someone else aside from Dylan.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I think that bullying played a role, but I read Eric's journal and think, "This kid has lost his mind."  Did people bully him into wanting all gays to be killed?

sergeant hartman, I also feel that it might have been a small piece in what started all of this, but I don't feel it was strictly just the bullying, either.

Eric was not in his right mind. He was on notoriously bad psychotropic drugs. And much like the bullying factor, these drugs aren't the entire cause, but they are more than likely a factor. (The drug issue is discussed quite a bit [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])

Dylan was not in his right mind, either.

All of these elements just hit them the wrong way, and it was amplified and synchronized between the two of them. They did not know how to cope, they really did not have anyone paying proper attention. That doesn't mean it is their fault, whoever "they" all might be. Apathy did play a part in it, though. Not only from the two that committed this crime, but everyone around them that just shrugged their shoulders, rolled their eyes; thought it was just hyperbole when they said some of the things they did (particularly Eric). Including his therapists/shrinks/counselors/ad infinitum.

Here's another point to ponder, in my opinion:

Where did Eric hear all of this racist, homophobic rhetoric from? It is true that in SOME ways he (and Dylan) were old enough to know right from wrong; in many instances. However, I feel it is very curious that he had friends who were of all races when he lived in the other states/cities/towns, but when he moved to Colorado, he suddenly started saying such things.

This is open for debate on all sides, I would like to emphasize that.

I understand that he may have harbored those views all along and hid them and felt more comfortable spewing them in a predominately white suburb, but it is something I find, as I said, rather curious. Did it come from the home? Was anything said to him in the past about having friends of other races? I know we will never know for sure, but I feel it is worth thinking about.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I think that bullying played a role, but I read Eric's journal and think, "This kid has lost his mind."  Did people bully him into wanting all gays to be killed?

I think that came from the fact that he and Dylan were called fags so much and made fun of and accused of being gay themselves. Obviously that was something really looked down on in that time and place. It was used as a wounding insult.So I think they projected that outwards towards others.It doesn't make it right but it seems that happens often.

tfsa47090 wrote:

midema wrote:

Regarding bullying not being the cause of school shootings:

Despite what many American authors say there are hundreds it not thousands of articles exploring the subject. These are written by Psychologists and Psychiatrist and some include interviews with surviving school shooters. The ones I have read to date all state the same thing: the shooters were social outcasts who lacked many social skills.


I think the most damaging in the case of Eric and Dylan is exclusion and the fact that they did not have a strong support system.  

These are very good points, midema.

There is still a distinct difference between Eric and Dylan and most school shooters (not necessarily all, because I have not read ALL of the stories about every school shooter at this point).

That difference is:

*The length of time they planned this.

*The scope of what they ACTUALLY intended to do (BLOW UP the school; the shooting portion of this was initially supposed to be an "after effect", I suppose you could say. They planned on shooting people at a distance as they were fleeing the explosion they thought was going to occur. They ended up improvising when the bombs failed to detonate).

*The fact that they were a duo.

A large majority of the others may have planned it in their minds way ahead of time, and perhaps a few days prior (like Cho making his videos/manifesto etc.), but for over a year? That is quite different. And again, the fact that they did this as a duo. That really stands out in the context of this subject.

But many people don't seem to understand that even though these two did have people who liked them, or seemed to like them, in that environment in that community and school, they were considered very strange, and that can be "classified" as being outcasts, at least somewhat.

I also agree 1000000000000% with the point that they didn't have social skills, and there does seem like there was exclusion, and I don't think the support systems were strong at all, if they even existed. I feel that they didn't think that they could talk about how they felt concerning these instances and issues because I think everyone wrote it off with the "oh, everyone goes through this. It'll all be over once you get out of there", when it actually doesn't get much better. A large majority of people continue to behave in the same way even as "adults". (I discussed this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] as well. The thread linked also discusses the same question posed here in this thread).

And another thing that springs to mind to possibly support this is the fact that Susan DeWitt stated in the 11K that Eric talked to her about how a certain person was bothering him because he had basically hurt his feelings/was talking behind his back. This is a girl he had come to really like, and the only girl who hadn't entirely shunned him or wrote him off after spending a small amount of time talking to him or hanging out with him. For him to want to vent something like that to a girl who was alone with him at his house, when he was aching for female attention, says quite a lot in my mind. He really needed to vent about it to someone and possibly get some sort of feedback from them; someone else aside from Dylan.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I think that bullying played a role, but I read Eric's journal and think, "This kid has lost his mind."  Did people bully him into wanting all gays to be killed?

sergeant hartman, I also feel that it might have been a small piece in what started all of this, but I don't feel it was strictly just the bullying, either.

Eric was not in his right mind. He was on notoriously bad psychotropic drugs. And much like the bullying factor, these drugs aren't the entire cause, but they are more than likely a factor. (The drug issue is discussed quite a bit [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])

Dylan was not in his right mind, either.

All of these elements just hit them the wrong way, and it was amplified and synchronized between the two of them. They did not know how to cope, they really did not have anyone paying proper attention. That doesn't mean it is their fault, whoever "they" all might be. Apathy did play a part in it, though. Not only from the two that committed this crime, but everyone around them that just shrugged their shoulders, rolled their eyes; thought it was just hyperbole when they said some of the things they did (particularly Eric). Including his therapists/shrinks/counselors/ad infinitum.

Here's another point to ponder, in my opinion:

Where did Eric hear all of this racist, homophobic rhetoric from? It is true that in SOME ways he (and Dylan) were old enough to know right from wrong; in many instances. However, I feel it is very curious that he had friends who were of all races when he lived in the other states/cities/towns, but when he moved to Colorado, he suddenly started saying such things.

This is open for debate on all sides, I would like to emphasize that.

I understand that he may have harbored those views all along and hid them and felt more comfortable spewing them in a predominately white suburb, but it is something I find, as I said, rather curious. Did it come from the home? Was anything said to him in the past about having friends of other races? I know we will never know for sure, but I feel it is worth thinking about.

I think they were a duo because they were in the same situation enduring the same treatment so eventually their commiseration and shared misery turned into something more. They reinforced each other's rage and world view because they felt that nobody they knew could understand it like they did. In retrospect, that turned out to been the start of the tragedy.


I have a valid question. If Eric and Dylan were really that crazy shouldn't  people feel sorry for them instead of feeling such hatred? After all if they were that crazy a lot of this wasn't their fault right? Doesn't that mean that were indeed victims in a real sense? I ask this because most people think and say they were just evil and inhuman and that was their problem and all that matters or anyone needs to know.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I think they were a duo because they were in the same situation enduring the same treatment so eventually their commiseration and shared misery turned into something more. They reinforced each other's rage and world view because they felt that nobody they knew could understand it like they did. In retrospect, that turned out to been the start of the tragedy.


I have a valid question. If Eric and Dylan were really that crazy shouldn't  people feel sorry for them instead of feeling such hatred? After all if they were that crazy a lot of this wasn't their fault right? Doesn't that mean that were indeed victims in a real sense? I ask this because most people think and say they were just evil and inhuman and that was their problem and all that matters or anyone needs to know.

I completely, 10000000000% agree with you as to why they performed this as a duo. The point I was making with that was in response to midema's post about the similarities between all school shooters/potential school bombers-turned-shooters.

I just want you to know that I don't think they were 100% crazy. There is no denying that they were not in their right minds, though. And yes, many, many factors played a part in how and why their mindset turned so sour and dysfunctional. Not all of it was their doing; it was their reaction to what others were doing coupled with a multitude of other factors. The end result was their own doing. What led up to it, as we ALL know, is a very large jigsaw puzzle of sorts, and it is why there are forums and websites like this one still discussing it with such immense depth a decade and a half after the fact.

The reason so many people love saying, thinking, and promoting that they were simply evil, soulless, vile subhumanoids is because it is the most easily digestible reason for those who have an intense aversion to utilizing critical thinking skills, and who inherently despise delving into things that might force them to take a long, hard, clear look at themselves in the mirror.

tfsa47090 wrote:

There is still a distinct difference between Eric and Dylan and most school shooters (not necessarily all, because I have not read ALL of the stories about every school shooter at this point).

That difference is:

*The length of time they planned this.

*The scope of what they ACTUALLY intended to do (BLOW UP the school; the shooting portion of this was initially supposed to be an "after effect", I suppose you could say. They planned on shooting people at a distance as they were fleeing the explosion they thought was going to occur. They ended up improvising when the bombs failed to detonate).

*The fact that they were a duo.

I think in order to better understand the dynamic we would have to look outside of school shootings.

Lengthy periods of time seem typical in these cases. I'm not done looking at the journal I was speaking off. There is quite a bit of German (ironic) psychological jargon that I need to wrap my mind around. Basically their argument is that most of these cases involve a very long "fantasy" phase with active planning (ie buying guns etc) being a shorter planning period.

I'm not sure about the scope. As you mentioned pairs are less likely to occur (although they do happen).

As I mentioned above I think we need to go outside of the school shooting realm to understand Eric and Dylan. I had written to an offender from Washington state who was involved in a crime (multiple murders) when he was 17. Writing to him is what reminded me of Columbine in the first place. There are striking similarities between the Bellevue Massacre (Anderson/Baranyi) and Columbine (Harris/Klebold). Anderson has been evaluated as a psychopath, Baranyi (to whom I wrote) a Depressive. Same type of scenario as Harris/Klebold. Many of the experts on that case agree that their rage became synergistic. In other words their relationship actually ALSO added fuel to the fire. They were dropouts which is one reason their target was not the school. But the lack of adhesion to social norms also exists.

Baranyi often spoke of defining his own rules and laws since he was antisocial and an outcast. Personally I think this is the key to many murders. The fact is many of these kids don't know right from wrong at the point that they commit their crime(s).

midema wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

There is still a distinct difference between Eric and Dylan and most school shooters (not necessarily all, because I have not read ALL of the stories about every school shooter at this point).

That difference is:

*The length of time they planned this.

*The scope of what they ACTUALLY intended to do (BLOW UP the school; the shooting portion of this was initially supposed to be an "after effect", I suppose you could say. They planned on shooting people at a distance as they were fleeing the explosion they thought was going to occur. They ended up improvising when the bombs failed to detonate).

*The fact that they were a duo.

I think in order to better understand the dynamic we would have to look outside of school shootings.

Lengthy periods of time seem typical in these cases. I'm not done looking at the journal I was speaking off. There is quite a bit of German (ironic) psychological jargon that I need to wrap my mind around. Basically their argument is that most of these cases involve a very long "fantasy" phase with active planning (ie buying guns etc) being a shorter planning period.

I'm not sure about the scope. As you mentioned pairs are less likely to occur (although they do happen).

As I mentioned above I think we need to go outside of the school shooting realm to understand Eric and Dylan. I had written to an offender from Washington state who was involved in a crime (multiple murders) when he was 17. Writing to him is what reminded me of Columbine in the first place. There are striking similarities between the Bellevue Massacre (Anderson/Baranyi) and Columbine (Harris/Klebold). Anderson has been evaluated as a psychopath, Baranyi (to whom I wrote) a Depressive. Same type of scenario as Harris/Klebold. Many of the experts on that case agree that their rage became synergistic. In other words their relationship actually ALSO added fuel to the fire. They were dropouts which is one reason their target was not the school. But the lack of adhesion to social norms also exists.

Baranyi often spoke of defining his own rules and laws since he was antisocial and an outcast. Personally I think this is the key to many murders. The fact is many of these kids don't know right from wrong at the point that they commit their crime(s).

Excellent points once again!

I've never heard of the Bellevue Massacre (until now, of course).

I am going to read about it starting right now.

I would love to hear more of what you have to say about all of this, including the other parallels you see between them.

tfsa47090 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I think they were a duo because they were in the same situation enduring the same treatment so eventually their commiseration and shared misery turned into something more. They reinforced each other's rage and world view because they felt that nobody they knew could understand it like they did. In retrospect, that turned out to been the start of the tragedy.


I have a valid question. If Eric and Dylan were really that crazy shouldn't  people feel sorry for them instead of feeling such hatred? After all if they were that crazy a lot of this wasn't their fault right? Doesn't that mean that were indeed victims in a real sense? I ask this because most people think and say they were just evil and inhuman and that was their problem and all that matters or anyone needs to know.

I completely, 10000000000% agree with you as to why they performed this as a duo. The point I was making with that was in response to midema's post about the similarities between all school shooters/potential school bombers-turned-shooters.

I just want you to know that I don't think they were 100% crazy. There is no denying that they were not in their right minds, though. And yes, many, many factors played a part in how and why their mindset turned so sour and dysfunctional. Not all of it was their doing; it was their reaction to what others were doing coupled with a multitude of other factors. The end result was their own doing. What led up to it, as we ALL know, is a very large jigsaw puzzle of sorts, and it is why there are forums and websites like this one still discussing it with such immense depth a decade and a half after the fact.

The reason so many people love saying, thinking, and promoting that they were simply evil, soulless, vile subhumanoids is because it is the most easily digestible reason for those who have an intense aversion to utilizing critical thinking skills, and who inherently despise delving into things that might force them to take a long, hard, clear look at themselves in the mirror.

I agree that people love to think that about them because its easy simple, and often makes them feel good because that makes the world makes sense to them.I can accept that E &D had some mental and emotional problems,maybe even severe ones.And I think there is more than one reason for that but the top of it was their treatment at school. The only thing I can never accept is that either was a psychopath.

I say that Eric and Dylan are evil because that's an adjective that I feel applies to both of them.  That doesn't mean that I and others literally believe that "evil" is what drove the two to shoot innocent kids.

I look in the mirror and see someone who isn't like those two at all.  I could never be that racist.  I could never be that homophobic.  I could never shoot anyone in the face so easily.  I could never wrong my parents that hard.  I could never be as big of an egomaniac as Eric.

Tfsa...

I'll have to collect my thoughts on the similarities! I just read another article that has opened up some pathways in my brain but have not had a chance to think it over or read some more.

I'll work on my assignment tonight and write something up next week ;-)

sergeant hartman wrote:

I say that Eric and Dylan are evil because that's an adjective that I feel applies to both of them.  That doesn't mean that I and others literally believe that "evil" is what drove the two to shoot innocent kids.

I look in the mirror and see someone who isn't like those two at all.  I could never be that racist.  I could never be that homophobic.  I could never shoot anyone in the face so easily.  I could never wrong my parents that hard.  I could never be as big of an egomaniac as Eric.

You may not be anything like them and not able to relate to them at all . However, I think the real point I'd like to make here is that not you or me or nobody else lived their lives or walked in their shoes. So nobody can know for sure everything that happened and everything that they were thinking or feeling that all lead up to them doing what they did. We all have firm ideas on it and we think we know but we can never know for sure. I think there's much truth to the idea that you can never know what it's like for somebody else unless you've walked in their shoes. So while you can say now I'd never do this or that, if you had lived a life identical to theirs maybe you could? Who knows for sure what any of us might do if we had lived another life? Please don't be offended. I'm not insulting you in any way.

If bullies were more honest, then I don't think that E/D would've had much of a problem with them.
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   lol

Bullying was not the cause of Columbine, nor did it play a huge role.

The reason is that bullying happens a lot, but such a shooting is very rare.

To find the cause of Columbine, you have to find the factor that made it a shooting instead of a common case of bullying. That factor is the extreme personality disorders that plagued the shooters.

People project their own experience with bullies onto Eric and Dylan. They "identify" with them. That's a fiction of their own creation.

Eric and Dylan were not like you.

lasttrain wrote:

Bullying was not the cause of Columbine, nor did it play a huge role.

The reason is that bullying happens a lot, but such a shooting is very rare.

To find the cause of Columbine, you have to find the factor that made it a shooting instead of a common case of bullying. That factor is the extreme personality disorders that plagued the shooters.

People project their own experience with bullies onto Eric and Dylan. They "identify" with them. That's a fiction of their own creation.

Eric and Dylan were not like you.

One of the things, why many young people is interested in cases like Columbine is the way they feel related with Eric and Dylan. Many lived the same social rejection and isolation that are clearly facts on Eric and Dylan personalities and lives. I am agree that they had a personality disorder but a social problem contributed with it and their actions, just like in many similar cases. Is possible that they didnt live bullying like others but since their childhood, they experienced situations with people of their age and problems to fit in at the school and many of their few friends and people on Columbine confirmed how they were insulted, rejected and a couple of losers. Say that something social like bullying or rejection didnt affect them, is like say that guns are the only problem. Many things contruibute in these cases and is not only something simple like gun laws or family interaction, all the society is responsable and unfortunately, many people is living the same, many others are considered losers too and anyone is like anyone because all the people is different but relate to them is not a sin either and is possible.

I don't believe Eric and Dylan were socially isolated. In the 11k are dozens if not more than a hundred students who report having spent time with them socially. It is also full of people who are interviewed as "associates" of the two. Eric and Dylan both participated in significant social activities, like bowling. In all the publicly available videos we see them collaborating with friends on creative projects.

They were not socially isolated and there is no evidence that they experienced more bullying than they themselves dished out.

lasttrain wrote:

I don't believe Eric and Dylan were socially isolated.  In the 11k are dozens if not more than a hundred students who report having spent time with them socially.  It is also full of people who are interviewed as "associates" of the two.  Eric and Dylan both participated in significant social activities, like bowling.  In all the publicly available videos we see them collaborating with friends on creative projects.

They were not socially isolated and there is no evidence that they experienced more bullying than they themselves dished out.

And how do you explain the depression that they clearly showed and stated in things like their journals?, how do you explain the rejection of people and girls that they stated too?, or you prefer to follow what Cullen said and not Eric and Dylan that are the ones who lived their own lives?, yes they had friends but were not lots of friends either and they werent popular, they couldnt event get a girlfriend or at least many dates. Dylan was very shy, something that could affected him and Eric was always the new and weird kid of the school. Also, those friends had stated how they were socially rejected many times, how the people used to look at them weird and called their names. It, in a teenage boy, can have a bad consequence too because the human being always want to be accepted and want to fit in everywhere at that age. There is something beyond a personality disorder, things that can be the result of that. This is a social problem, where everyone is involved.

I respect your opinion and that you are agree with Cullen but you shoulnt be only with what he said or you read on the 11k. There are a lot of many other things that are better proofs of what they had to live. Including books, since Cullen's book is not the only one that exist about this subject.

Mj2beat wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

I don't believe Eric and Dylan were socially isolated.  In the 11k are dozens if not more than a hundred students who report having spent time with them socially.  It is also full of people who are interviewed as "associates" of the two.  Eric and Dylan both participated in significant social activities, like bowling.  In all the publicly available videos we see them collaborating with friends on creative projects.

They were not socially isolated and there is no evidence that they experienced more bullying than they themselves dished out.

And how do you explain the depression that they clearly showed and stated in things like their journals?, how do you explain the rejection of people and girls that they stated too?

Just because you have friends doesn't mean you can't be depressed.  Dylan was depressed despite having lots of friends and a family that wholeheartedly supported him.  Eric was not depressed, but he sometimes used the language of depression and isolation to justify his homicidal ideation and sadism.

I don't see any proof of unfair rejection by girls.  Dylan apparently never approached the girl he was so in love with.  He went to prom with another.  

Eric had lots of girls.  He went to homecoming freshman year with Tiffany Typher. Susan DeWitt in her letter wrote of his long flirtation with her. The "Eric in Columbine" video shows him happily flirting with girls and talking to them.  The 11K interviews with associates are full of his interactions with girls, and some are flirtatious.   And Bill Briggs and Jason Blevins, who interviewed huge numbers of students in the week after the shooting, write "He told girls they looked nice . . . His computer talents also landed Harris a girlfriend. Through an on-line chat last summer, he met a local teenager and began dating her around July or August."  

Of course, Eric did receive some rejection, because he was so forward.  I mean, he put fake blood on himself to make it look like he had committed suicide in order to impress one girl.  Of course you are going to be rejected sometimes if you do stuff like that.  Most of Eric's rejection by girls was probably a result of his extreme pushiness, evident in this GIF where he grabs a girl by the neck and twists her:

4

Please don't tell me this guy is sitting in his room weeping over rejection. Eric Harris was a harasser and murderer of women, not a spurned romantic.

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

I don't believe Eric and Dylan were socially isolated.  In the 11k are dozens if not more than a hundred students who report having spent time with them socially.  It is also full of people who are interviewed as "associates" of the two.  Eric and Dylan both participated in significant social activities, like bowling.  In all the publicly available videos we see them collaborating with friends on creative projects.

They were not socially isolated and there is no evidence that they experienced more bullying than they themselves dished out.

And how do you explain the depression that they clearly showed and stated in things like their journals?, how do you explain the rejection of people and girls that they stated too?

Just because you have friends doesn't mean you can't be depressed.  Dylan was depressed despite having lots of friends and a family that wholeheartedly supported him.  Eric was not depressed, but he sometimes used the language of depression and isolation to justify his homicidal ideation and sadism.

I don't see any proof of unfair rejection by girls.  Dylan apparently never approached the girl he was so in love with.  He went to prom with another.  

Eric had lots of girls.  He went to homecoming freshman year with Tiffany Typher. Susan DeWitt in her letter wrote of his long flirtation with her. The "Eric in Columbine" video shows him happily flirting with girls and talking to them.  The 11K interviews with associates are full of his interactions with girls, and some are flirtatious.   And Bill Briggs and Jason Blevins, who interviewed huge numbers of students in the week after the shooting, write "He told girls they looked nice . . . His computer talents also landed Harris a girlfriend. Through an on-line chat last summer, he met a local teenager and began dating her around July or August."  

Of course, Eric did receive some rejection, because he was so forward.  I mean, he put fake blood on himself to make it look like he had committed suicide in order to impress one girl.  Of course you are going to be rejected sometimes if you do stuff like that.  Most of Eric's rejection by girls was probably a result of his extreme pushiness, evident in this GIF where he grabs a girl by the neck and twists her:

4

Please don't tell me this guy is sitting in his room weeping over rejection.  Eric Harris was a harasser and murderer of women, not a spurned romantic.

Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting.

It depends on what you consider as "having".
In fact Eric dated a lot of girls, there can be no doubt about that. Its also a fact, however, that he did not have much success beyond that. Most of the girls typically dropped him after one or a few dates, because they found him so awkward. The only girl he dated for a longer time was Sasha Jacobs and so far I know, the didn't quit in good terms.
I think it would be interesting to know, if Eric ever kissed a girl. If so, I think Sasha Jacobs would be the most likely candidate, just because they dated for a longer time.

I'm pretty sure, that Eric died as a virgin, basically because he indicates it in his journal (something like "If I just could got laid, maybe that would change some of the fuck around me"). It also doesn't seem like he ever had a real girlfriend for a longer time. So despite some success with girls, the disappointment should outweigh it with a frustrating amount.

Mj2beat wrote:

Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you  read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting.

Yes, Eric had lots of girls, and Cullen is accurate on this point (though he is wrong about Brenda Parker).  The only time Eric didn't get girls was when he acted crazy and turned them off.

You want an analysis based on a reading of the evidence?  Here you go:

Freshman year he went to prom with Tiffany Typher, and later faked a suicide to scare her.

Valerie Lage dated Eric in 1996 (11k page 19017).

Dated Sasha Jacobs from 1997-1998 (page 960), but began stalking and harassing her until she had to change her screen name.

Katie Thompson went out with Eric in 1999 (p. 1221) until her mother put a stop to it.

Jen Laufenberg worked with Eric at Tortilla Wraps and hung out with him a lot outside of work, but did not date him because he was a coworker.

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him, as is obvious in the "Eric in Columbine" video where he asks her to lunch and she later shows up and is happy to talk to him.  She later said that "he was always really sweet."  The video also shows him flirting with other girls as well.
 
Kristi Epling had a crush on him, which was the basis of tension between himself and Nate Dykeman.

Susan Dewitt accompanied Eric to prom and wrote a letter to him after he died.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

The 11K and video evidence shows him getting a lot of girls.  How many people go to prom as a freshman?

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I'm pretty sure, that Eric died as a virgin, basically because he indicates it in his journal (something like "If I just could got laid, maybe that would change some of the fuck around me"). It also doesn't seem like he ever had a real girlfriend for a longer time. So despite some success with girls, the disappointment should outweigh it with a frustrating amount.

If you are a psychopath and think that all girls owe you, then yes you might feel more rejection than most. But in this case the psychopathy is the cause of the rejection, not the other way around.  

lasttrain,


Number one:

THIS IS BRANDI TINKLENBERG ON ANOTHER DAY (NOT the same day as the cafeteria footage).

Susan DeWitt DID NOT ACCOMPANY ANYONE to the 1999 senior prom.

Susan Dewitt, however, DID spend time with Eric on the night of the 1999 senior prom at his house.

Neither she nor Eric went to the actual prom.

Eric INVITED her to the prom AFTER-PARTY and she had to decline because she received a page (on her beeper) from her sister with a code to get home.

Eric went to the prom AFTER-PARTY ALONE. He met up with Dylan and other associates for a short while.


THIS GIRL IS BRANDI TINKLENBERG, once AGAIN.. That is a clip from one of their pseudo-horror/thriller/Tarantino-wannabe "productions" for film class.

Eric looks SHEEPISH in that video. I am sure he enjoyed being next to a girl he had a crush on and found attractive, but he was still shy about it. You can see it in his eyes. ONE MORE TIME, that girl is BRANDI.

Please get these facts straight.

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you  read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting.

Yes, Eric had lots of girls, and Cullen is accurate on this point (though he is wrong about Brenda Parker).  The only time Eric didn't get girls was when he acted crazy and turned them off.

You want an analysis based on a reading of the evidence?  Here you go:

Freshman year he went to prom with Tiffany Typher, and later faked a suicide to scare her.

Valerie Lage dated Eric in 1996 (11k page 19017).

Dated Sasha Jacobs from 1997-1998 (page 960), but began stalking and harassing her until she had to change her screen name.

Katie Thompson went out with Eric in 1999 (p. 1221) until her mother put a stop to it.

Jen Laufenberg worked with Eric at Tortilla Wraps and hung out with him a lot outside of work, but did not date him because he was a coworker.

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him, as is obvious in the "Eric in Columbine" video where he asks her to lunch and she later shows up and is happy to talk to him.  She later said that "he was always really sweet."  The video also shows him flirting with other girls as well.
 
Kristi Epling had a crush on him, which was the basis of tension between himself and Nate Dykeman.

Susan Dewitt accompanied Eric to prom and wrote a letter to him after he died.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

The 11K and video evidence shows him getting a lot of girls.  How many people go to prom as a freshman?

Are you sure you're not Dave Cullen or one of his associates?