Do you think that bullying played a huge role?

lasttrain wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I'm pretty sure, that Eric died as a virgin, basically because he indicates it in his journal (something like "If I just could got laid, maybe that would change some of the fuck around me"). It also doesn't seem like he ever had a real girlfriend for a longer time. So despite some success with girls, the disappointment should outweigh it with a frustrating amount.

If you are a psychopath and think that all girls owe you, then yes you might feel more rejection than most.  But in this case the psychopathy is the cause of the rejection, not the other way around.  

Not sure what you want to indicate. The cause for the rejection was that this girls did find Eric awkward and strange. I don't know if his psychopathy was the reason for that.
And certainly you don't have to be a psychopath to be frustrated over the fact, that you are 18 and still a virgin. I think every average male would be very very unhappy with that.

My Gosh, Eric and Dylan were constantly rejected by women. Eric, more than Dylan because he put himself out there a lot more than Dylan but Dylan was rejected most of the time when he did approach girls for dates. Eric got turned down most of the time and when he did get a date he was usually rejected after a date or two because girls found him different and strange. Look at how the blonde girl he was talking to and trying to flirt with treated him in the video, look at how he asked 3 girls to prom and all turned him down , including the one that humiliated him in front of the class. He spoke about this rejection himself. Think he wasn't depressed by it or affected by it if you like but to say he had a lot of girls and wasn't constantly rejected by women seems to me to be an alternative version of reality.

If Eric had all these women, then why did he die a virgin, very much against his wishes?

lasttrain wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I'm pretty sure, that Eric died as a virgin, basically because he indicates it in his journal (something like "If I just could got laid, maybe that would change some of the fuck around me"). It also doesn't seem like he ever had a real girlfriend for a longer time. So despite some success with girls, the disappointment should outweigh it with a frustrating amount.

If you are a psychopath and think that all girls owe you, then yes you might feel more rejection than most.  But in this case the psychopathy is the cause of the rejection, not the other way around.  

Aren't psychopaths considerably more sexually successful than non-psychopaths? Eric died a virgin.

Are you trying to argue that Eric was *not* a virgin - that he *was* getting his dick wet, but still seethed with resentment over the fact that he couldn't fuck every single girl he met?

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you  read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting.

Yes, Eric had lots of girls, and Cullen is accurate on this point (though he is wrong about Brenda Parker).  The only time Eric didn't get girls was when he acted crazy and turned them off.

You want an analysis based on a reading of the evidence?  Here you go:

Freshman year he went to prom with Tiffany Typher, and later faked a suicide to scare her.

Valerie Lage dated Eric in 1996 (11k page 19017).

Dated Sasha Jacobs from 1997-1998 (page 960), but began stalking and harassing her until she had to change her screen name.

Katie Thompson went out with Eric in 1999 (p. 1221) until her mother put a stop to it.

Jen Laufenberg worked with Eric at Tortilla Wraps and hung out with him a lot outside of work, but did not date him because he was a coworker.

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him, as is obvious in the "Eric in Columbine" video where he asks her to lunch and she later shows up and is happy to talk to him.  She later said that "he was always really sweet."  The video also shows him flirting with other girls as well.
 
Kristi Epling had a crush on him, which was the basis of tension between himself and Nate Dykeman.

Susan Dewitt accompanied Eric to prom and wrote a letter to him after he died.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

The 11K and video evidence shows him getting a lot of girls.  How many people go to prom as a freshman?

1. Why is it even remotely excusable for an author to use ALREADY DEBUNKED MISinformation as "fact" in his book? This is a serious allegation: that a 16/17 year old boy slept with a woman in her early 20s. I know it happens more often than many would assume, and my point here is neutral right now (meaning, I am not passing judgement on age gaps between males and females on either end...that is not the issue right now). The actual issue is that such a story; such an alleged occurrence is ENORMOUS, and it is NOT something that coincides with things Eric wrote in his journal just prior to the massacre.

Had Cullen written this book of his in 2000-2001, it would be easier to understand this "discrepancy", but to have it ready for launch in 2009 still containing this MISinformation, considering HE, HIMSELF had covered the massacre since 1999 as a journalist speaks VOLUMES in and of ITSELF. Why hasn't he PUBLICLY stepped up and acknowledged this HUGE lie that he (KNOWINGLY) showcased as a fact in his book?


*2. How reliable is the Valerie Lage story? (There is another girl who's story is rather questionable to me, and that is "Stephanie True". "Stephanie True: 8,848: thought EH/DK were “hot,” looked like 'bad boys'". That story seems as made up as Brenda's, honestly. She clams to have seen them at the mall and they BOTH whistled at her. It seems as though she just said it to get attention AFTER THE FACT, just like Brenda. There is NO proof for Stephanie's story that I have ever seen). If I am wrong, please correct me and/or post the proof or lead me to the proof.

3. He did harass Sasha Jacobs after they broke up, and he did act similarly to another girl he dated, who's name MIGHT be Michelle.

4. Brandi Tinklenberg did not DISLIKE Eric, but she makes it CLEAR that her feelings toward him are NOT of the same caliber as HIS feelings for HER. She was NOT "receptive" to him. She was primarily talking to Mike V. in the cafeteria video. She was a 16 year old girl and she was just talking to guys who were talking to her. She knew Eric liked her, but she did not feel the same. She did LIKE him, just not romantically. She goes out of her way to talk to a boy named "Jeremy" trying to get Eric to leave her alone. At the same time, it is apparent that she liked him enough to sit with him again in the film class they shared, and to star in one of his "productions". But again, it doesn't mean she liked him romantically/sexually. She shows that she didn't.

5. Eric AND Tiffany were BOTH FRESHMEN who went to a HOMECOMING DANCE together. I knew LOADS of freshmen who went to homecoming dances when I was in high school. It was NOT A PROM.

tfsa47090 wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you  read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting.

Yes, Eric had lots of girls, and Cullen is accurate on this point (though he is wrong about Brenda Parker).  The only time Eric didn't get girls was when he acted crazy and turned them off.

You want an analysis based on a reading of the evidence?  Here you go:

Freshman year he went to prom with Tiffany Typher, and later faked a suicide to scare her.

Valerie Lage dated Eric in 1996 (11k page 19017).

Dated Sasha Jacobs from 1997-1998 (page 960), but began stalking and harassing her until she had to change her screen name.

Katie Thompson went out with Eric in 1999 (p. 1221) until her mother put a stop to it.

Jen Laufenberg worked with Eric at Tortilla Wraps and hung out with him a lot outside of work, but did not date him because he was a coworker.

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him, as is obvious in the "Eric in Columbine" video where he asks her to lunch and she later shows up and is happy to talk to him.  She later said that "he was always really sweet."  The video also shows him flirting with other girls as well.
 
Kristi Epling had a crush on him, which was the basis of tension between himself and Nate Dykeman.

Susan Dewitt accompanied Eric to prom and wrote a letter to him after he died.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

The 11K and video evidence shows him getting a lot of girls.  How many people go to prom as a freshman?

1. Why is it even remotely excusable for an author to use ALREADY DEBUNKED MISinformation as "fact" in his book? This is a serious allegation: that a 16/17 year old boy slept with a woman in her early 20s. I know it happens more often than many would assume, and my point here is neutral right now (meaning, I am not passing judgement on age gaps between males and females on either end...that is not the issue right now). The actual issue is that such a story; such an alleged occurrence is ENORMOUS, and it is NOT something that coincides with things Eric wrote in his journal just prior to the massacre.

Had Cullen written this book of his in 2000-2001, it would be easier to understand this "discrepancy", but to have it ready for launch in 2009 still containing this MISinformation, considering HE, HIMSELF had covered the massacre since 1999 as a journalist speaks VOLUMES in and of ITSELF. Why hasn't he PUBLICLY stepped up and acknowledged this HUGE lie that he (KNOWINGLY) showcased as a fact in his book?


*2. How reliable is the Valerie Lage story? (There is another girl who's story is rather questionable to me, and that is "Stephanie True". "Stephanie True: 8,848: thought EH/DK were “hot,” looked like 'bad boys'". That story seems as made up as Brenda's, honestly. She clams to have seen them at the mall and they BOTH whistled at her. It seems as though she just said it to get attention AFTER THE FACT, just like Brenda. There is NO proof for Stephanie's story that I have ever seen). If I am wrong, please correct me and/or post the proof or lead me to the proof.

3. He did harass Sasha Jacobs after they broke up, and he did act similarly to another girl he dated, who's name MIGHT be Michelle.

4. Brandi Tinklenberg did not DISLIKE Eric, but she makes it CLEAR that her feelings toward him are NOT of the same caliber as HIS feelings for HER. She was NOT "receptive" to him. She was primarily talking to Mike V. in the cafeteria video. She was a 16 year old girl and she was just talking to guys who were talking to her. She knew Eric liked her, but she did not feel the same. She did LIKE him, just not romantically. She goes out of her way to talk to a boy named "Jeremy" trying to get Eric to leave her alone. At the same time, it is apparent that she liked him enough to sit with him again in the film class they shared, and to star in one of his "productions". But again, it doesn't mean she liked him romantically/sexually. She shows that she didn't.

5. Eric AND Tiffany were BOTH FRESHMEN who went to a HOMECOMING DANCE together. I knew LOADS of freshmen who went to homecoming dances when I was in high school. It was NOT A PROM.

Thanks tfsa, I didnt have the time to answer like I wanted and I am glad you did it for me. Again, I want that lastrain come with an argument from his own words, thoughts (and other sources), not others because like I said, the 11k (that  are something pretty good to read and study but not the only one) and Cullen's book are not the only source that exist either and even less with all those discrepancies. There are a lot of things around about this case that can give a better perspective of something than the 11k itself where a lot of whitnesses can be exaggerating everything or telling fake stories. I personally trust more in Eric and Dylan journals or closest friends (that were just a few and not a lot)  words than statements of people that didnt know them very much or not at all and I will always believe that something really bad started with Eric and Dylan's anger and despise, they didnt were born evil, I have read and watch a lot of killers's stories and society and system failed with them and are the responsable of their hate and mental state, Eric and Dylan are not the exception and I dont see an argument really serious againts that when it comes from Cullen's book that even got wrong with Dylan's favorite bands or Eric's success with girls (that by the way, rejection from girls always is something that affected a lot mass and serial killers not matter if they had girlfriends or dates and compare with other 18 year old boys,  Eric didnt get many girls and dates like Cullen wanted to show). I dont know if lastrain is Cullen or not, but if its not, I will glad someday to read better arguments when the 11k and Cullen's book wont be the only sources.

lasttrain wrote:

 Most of Eric's rejection by girls was probably a result of his extreme pushiness, evident in this GIF where he grabs a girl by the neck and twists her:

4

Please don't tell me this guy is sitting in his room weeping over rejection.  Eric Harris was a harasser and murderer of women, not a spurned romantic.

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you  read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting.

Yes, Eric had lots of girls, and Cullen is accurate on this point (though he is wrong about Brenda Parker).  The only time Eric didn't get girls was when he acted crazy and turned them off.

You want an analysis based on a reading of the evidence?  Here you go:

Freshman year he went to prom with Tiffany Typher, and later faked a suicide to scare her.

Valerie Lage dated Eric in 1996 (11k page 19017).

Dated Sasha Jacobs from 1997-1998 (page 960), but began stalking and harassing her until she had to change her screen name.

Katie Thompson went out with Eric in 1999 (p. 1221) until her mother put a stop to it.

Jen Laufenberg worked with Eric at Tortilla Wraps and hung out with him a lot outside of work, but did not date him because he was a coworker.

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him, as is obvious in the "Eric in Columbine" video where he asks her to lunch and she later shows up and is happy to talk to him.  She later said that "he was always really sweet." The video also shows him flirting with other girls as well.

Kristi Epling had a crush on him, which was the basis of tension between himself and Nate Dykeman.

Susan Dewitt accompanied Eric to prom and wrote a letter to him after he died.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

The 11K and video evidence shows him getting a lot of girls.  How many people go to prom as a freshman?

To keep this coherent, I am quoting my own posts so anyone reading this can see which information and photos/gifs have been erroneously discussed.

tfsa47090 wrote:

lasttrain,


Number one:

THIS IS BRANDI TINKLENBERG ON ANOTHER DAY (NOT the same day as the cafeteria footage).

Susan DeWitt DID NOT ACCOMPANY ANYONE to the 1999 senior prom.

Susan Dewitt, however, DID spend time with Eric on the night of the 1999 senior prom at his house.

Neither she nor Eric went to the actual prom.

Eric INVITED her to the prom AFTER-PARTY and she had to decline because she received a page (on her beeper) from her sister with a code to get home.

Eric went to the prom AFTER-PARTY ALONE. He met up with Dylan and other associates for a short while.


THIS GIRL IS BRANDI TINKLENBERG, once AGAIN.. That is a clip from one of their pseudo-horror/thriller/Tarantino-wannabe "productions" for film class.

Eric looks SHEEPISH in that video. I am sure he enjoyed being next to a girl he had a crush on and found attractive, but he was still shy about it. You can see it in his eyes. ONE MORE TIME, that girl is BRANDI.

Please get these facts straight.

tfsa47090 wrote:

1. Why is it even remotely excusable for an author to use ALREADY DEBUNKED MISinformation as "fact" in his book? This is a serious allegation: that a 16/17 year old boy slept with a woman in her early 20s. I know it happens more often than many would assume, and my point here is neutral right now (meaning, I am not passing judgement on age gaps between males and females on either end...that is not the issue right now). The actual issue is that such a story; such an alleged occurrence is ENORMOUS, and it is NOT something that coincides with things Eric wrote in his journal just prior to the massacre.

Had Cullen written this book of his in 2000-2001, it would be easier to understand this "discrepancy", but to have it ready for launch in 2009 still containing this MISinformation, considering HE, HIMSELF had covered the massacre since 1999 as a journalist speaks VOLUMES in and of ITSELF. Why hasn't he PUBLICLY stepped up and acknowledged this HUGE lie that he (KNOWINGLY) showcased as a fact in his book?


*2. How reliable is the Valerie Lage story? (There is another girl who's story is rather questionable to me, and that is "Stephanie True". "Stephanie True: 8,848: thought EH/DK were “hot,” looked like 'bad boys'". That story seems as made up as Brenda's, honestly. She clams to have seen them at the mall and they BOTH whistled at her. It seems as though she just said it to get attention AFTER THE FACT, just like Brenda. There is NO proof for Stephanie's story that I have ever seen). If I am wrong, please correct me and/or post the proof or lead me to the proof.

3. He did harass Sasha Jacobs after they broke up, and he did act similarly to another girl he dated, who's name MIGHT be Michelle.

4. Brandi Tinklenberg did not DISLIKE Eric, but she makes it CLEAR that her feelings toward him are NOT of the same caliber as HIS feelings for HER. She was NOT "receptive" to him. She was primarily talking to Mike V. in the cafeteria video. She was a 16 year old girl and she was just talking to guys who were talking to her. She knew Eric liked her, but she did not feel the same. She did LIKE him, just not romantically. She goes out of her way to talk to a boy named "Jeremy" trying to get Eric to leave her alone. At the same time, it is apparent that she liked him enough to sit with him again in the film class they shared, and to star in one of his "productions". But again, it doesn't mean she liked him romantically/sexually. She shows that she didn't.

5. Eric AND Tiffany were BOTH FRESHMEN who went to a HOMECOMING DANCE together. I knew LOADS of freshmen who went to homecoming dances when I was in high school. It was NOT A PROM.

Jenn wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you  read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting.

Yes, Eric had lots of girls, and Cullen is accurate on this point (though he is wrong about Brenda Parker).  The only time Eric didn't get girls was when he acted crazy and turned them off.

You want an analysis based on a reading of the evidence?  Here you go:

Freshman year he went to prom with Tiffany Typher, and later faked a suicide to scare her.

Valerie Lage dated Eric in 1996 (11k page 19017).

Dated Sasha Jacobs from 1997-1998 (page 960), but began stalking and harassing her until she had to change her screen name.

Katie Thompson went out with Eric in 1999 (p. 1221) until her mother put a stop to it.

Jen Laufenberg worked with Eric at Tortilla Wraps and hung out with him a lot outside of work, but did not date him because he was a coworker.

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him, as is obvious in the "Eric in Columbine" video where he asks her to lunch and she later shows up and is happy to talk to him.  She later said that "he was always really sweet."  The video also shows him flirting with other girls as well.
 
Kristi Epling had a crush on him, which was the basis of tension between himself and Nate Dykeman.

Susan Dewitt accompanied Eric to prom and wrote a letter to him after he died.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

The 11K and video evidence shows him getting a lot of girls.  How many people go to prom as a freshman?

Are you sure you're not Dave Cullen or one of his associates?  

Don't bother trying to ask him - he'll block you for sending him "nuisance messages."

Mj2beat wrote:

Thanks tfsa, I didnt have the time to answer like I wanted and I am glad you did it for me. Again, I want that lastrain come with an argument from his own words, thoughts (and other sources), not others because like I said, the 11k (that  are something pretty good to read and study but not the only one) and Cullen's book are not the only source that exist either and even less with all those discrepancies. There are a lot of things around about this case that can give a better perspective of something than the 11k itself where a lot of whitnesses can be exaggerating everything or telling fake stories. I personally trust more in Eric and Dylan journals or closest friends (that were just a few and not a lot)  words than statements of people that didnt know them very much or not at all and I will always believe that something really bad started with Eric and Dylan's anger and despise, they didnt were born evil, I have read and watch a lot of killers's stories and society and system failed with them and are the responsable of their hate and mental state, Eric and Dylan are not the exception and I dont see an argument really serious againts that when it comes from Cullen's book that even got wrong with Dylan's favorite bands or Eric's success with girls (that by the way, rejection from girls always is something that affected a lot mass and serial killers not matter if they had girlfriends or dates and compare with other 18 year old boys,  Eric didnt get many girls and dates like Cullen wanted to show). I dont know if lastrain is Cullen or not, but if its not, I will glad someday to read better arguments when the 11k and Cullen's book wont be the only sources.

You're very welcome, Mj2beat!

There are WAY too many contradictions along with backtracking, exaggerations, and lots, LOTS more in that 11K.

A few times, they forgot to "redact" certain redacted names!

There are so many email tips from people across the country in that thing (11K) as well.

Some of it yielded results, but other things were ridiculous and fruitless.

This whole thing is botched.

I personally think it is a combination of incompetence, laziness, and diversion.

Eric was not a psychopath ...

- He cared and even had emphaty for animals
- Psychopath with low self-esteem?
- most of psychopaths aren't angry
- He called himself a god because he felt powerless
- He was learned to hate because of bullying and social anxiety (i am sure that he was afraid of people)



Even if he was a "psychopath" , he lost his own life for what he did.


So columbine was a suicide and you can't understand it without understanding that i was a SUICIDE.



Anger can make you violent and sadistic - Dylan was also sadistic !


He did shot one guy to his face - this guy is called Lance Kirklin.

+ He died as a virgin


So as you can see - real Eric Harris was not a "GOD", he hated himself and he felt rejected by almost "EVERYONE"


Yes he wrote "everyone is always making fun of me" - i am sure that he was a victim of bullying , but he was also paranoid and he wanted revenge against WORLD.

Yes i say WORLD because paranoid people with social anxiety think that everyone is making fun of them , they everyone wanna hurt them and bla bla ..

1) The fact that I misspoke about the prom does not hurt my argument.  Actually, it helps it.  Susan DeWitt chose to skip prom to spend the night with Eric.  That proves he got girls.

2) I am not sure I follow the critique of my point about Tinklenberg.  All I said was that he is flirting with her in videos.  I didn't say what day it was.  But it doesn't matter.  Eric is flirting with/touching girls in these videos.  CLEARLY he is not isolated from them or shy.

3) Yes, Eric got girls, but he also got rejected sometimes. Of course, Eric faked a suicide, sent harassing messages, made offhand comments about murder, and was actively plotting homicide against most of the girls in the school. No wonder he met with rejection!

I find it really offensive to blame Columbine on rejection by girls. No girl owes a man her body, especially one who is a homicidal psychopath.

Rejection did not make Eric a homicidal psychopath. Being a homicidal psychopath caused him to get rejected.

I really don't think 'rejection by girls' is what caused Columbine. It is just one thing that Eric was unhappy about but I don't really recall them mentioning that in TBT or in their written rants that they were going to do a massacre because girls rejected them.

And you are contradicting yourself. First you say he got girls and then you said that girls rejected him because he was a 'psychopath'?

So you're telling me that you believe Cullen's word over Eric's? Even though Cullen did not know Eric but because Cullen said Eric got girls it must be true, even though in Eric's OWN words he said "WHY can't I get any girls"? And yea, Eric may have flirted with Brandi (that's her name, right? The blonde in the video) but she hardly seems interested and yet you say this is him "getting" girls? Lol. Where do you get your logic from?

lasttrain wrote:

1) The fact that I misspoke about the prom does not hurt my argument.  Actually, it helps it.  Susan DeWitt chose to skip prom to spend the night with Eric.  That proves he got girls.

2) I am not sure I follow the critique of my point about Tinklenberg.  All I said was that he is flirting with her in videos.  I didn't say what day it was.  But it doesn't matter.  Eric is flirting with/touching girls in these videos.  CLEARLY he is not isolated from them or shy.

3) Yes, Eric got girls, but he also got rejected sometimes.  Of course, Eric faked a suicide, sent harassing messages, made offhand comments about murder, and was actively plotting homicide against most of the girls in the school.  No wonder he met with rejection!

I find it really offensive to blame Columbine on rejection by girls.  No girl owes a man her body, especially one who is a homicidal psychopath.  

Rejection did not make Eric a homicidal psychopath.  Being a homicidal psychopath caused him to get rejected.

1) No one here is saying that rejection by girls, caused Columbine. What we meant is that rejection by everyone in general, is one of the facts that caused Columbine and with everyone we include girls.

2) That Eric appear in a video with a girl doesn't mean that he was successful with girls and that he got a lot of girls. And you are contradicting yourself because if Eric did all those things like the fake suicide, he couldn't get many girls with the reputation of a stalker and annoying guy, so your argument is not valid at all. And I am not saying that he had that reputation but many girls thought that he was weird anyway and in his senior year he got rejections from girls that could affected him a lot, like the ones for prom.

3) Eric wasnt so shy like Dylan (I am not saying that he wasnt shy at all because he could be shy too)but I've noticed that his personality was more impulsive, something that could take him to be more open with girls and to sent harassing messages when he was rejected, but again, it doesnt mean that he got a lot of girls or that he wasnt isolated.

4) Have girls or not, rejection always affect the people very much, specially young men like Eric and there are proofs of killers like Eric, that had girlfriends or girls but that some rejection against them, affected them and was a fact in their killing motives. So again, if Eric was with a girl or not, it doesnt mean that their rejections did not affect him. Because is clear that they did.

5) No one became a homicidal psychopath from one day to another. There are a lot of facts why they become psychopaths and rejection by the society or a trauma caused by someone, is an undeniable fact. Besides, no one knows if Eric was in fact a psychopath or not, he could be just a sad and angry boy. I am not agree very much with that though, because I think that Eric and Dylan had some personality disorder and psychopathy could be one of them, but they didnt start to have those personality disorders from one day to another and for nothing.

Again,I must ask why if Eric had all these women, did he die a virgin very much against his wishes?

How Eric could be a psychopath? He blamed himself .


He said "dont blame friends , family" - So he cared for some people ..


Psychopaths dont care even about their family :-)


so you think that Columbine happaned because Eric was a homicidal psychopath?

He could be a serial killer if he was homicidal psychopath , but he decided to kill himself :-)


Please tell me one psychopath who was suicidal :-)


He got rejected by girls because he was friend with outcasts.


"Reb" in his diary was homicidal with no emphaty , but who was real Eric Harris?

Why he needed demonstrate power? Maybe because he felt powerless and worthless?


You know why he wrote his diary ? Because he knew that his diary will make him more powerfull.

lasttrain wrote:

1) The fact that I misspoke about the prom does not hurt my argument.  Actually, it helps it.  Susan DeWitt chose to skip prom to spend the night with Eric.  That proves he got girls.

It proves that Susan didn't want to go to the prom, or at least not with Eric. We don't know if anyone else asked her, but she was a Junior during the 1998-1999 school year, so the only way she'd "skip" it that year was by declining invitations from Seniors.

It is true that she liked him. He did get her attention, and she did not decline his request to hang out on the night of the prom and watch a movie.

She did decline his invitation to the prom, but accepted the invitation to hang out on the night of the prom. She watched a movie with him, and then briefly talked with him just as his parents were getting home from a night out to celebrate their wedding anniversary. After she and his parents were formally introduced, she hung out with him briefly in his room, listened to music, talked, and he put his arm around her. She declined his invitation to attend the prom after-party that night. She asked him to get her an aspirin because she said she had a headache, and then she got a page (on her beeper) with a code to "get home". He kept asking her to go turn her car on and come back in while it warmed up. She didn't. She left and he kissed her on the cheek. (This is all from Susan's interview in the 11K).

She did like him quite a lot, and anyone who denies that is insane or doesn't have a clue about what they are saying. But this was DAYS before the massacre. He was too far gone to turn back at that point. Yes, she was responsive to at least one of his invitations, and talked to him on the phone a few times before they had this date. She would talk to him when she saw him at Black Jack, and when he would stop into her place of work (a salon; "Great Clips"). Both of their workplaces were in the same shopping plaza.

So yes, in the end, he got a girl to spend time with him for one evening----for a few hours. He put his arm around her and kissed her on the cheek when she left. That is what she says in her interview, at least.

He went on numerous dates over the course of a few months with Sasha Jacobs, too.

The issue with this is that neither of these interactions lasted or culminated into anything of much depth. (Although in my opinion, it is very possible that it would have with Susan).

lasttrain wrote:

2) I am not sure I follow the critique of my point about Tinklenberg.  All I said was that he is flirting with her in videos.  I didn't say what day it was.  But it doesn't matter.  Eric is flirting with/touching girls in these videos.  CLEARLY he is not isolated from them or shy.

The point about Brandi Tinklenberg is:

First, you say this:

lasttrain wrote:

Of course, Eric did receive some rejection, because he was so forward.  I mean, he put fake blood on himself to make it look like he had committed suicide in order to impress one girl.  Of course you are going to be rejected sometimes if you do stuff like that.  Most of Eric's rejection by girls was probably a result of his extreme pushiness, evident in this GIF where he grabs a girl by the neck and twists her:

4

Please don't tell me this guy is sitting in his room weeping over rejection.  Eric Harris was a harasser and murderer of women, not a spurned romantic.

...and you use a gif of Eric and Brandi herself in a film class video assignment. You say this snip of a video demonstrates his "extreme pushiness" when it came to girls.

Anyone who has seen the videos that Dylan and Eric made for this class should be aware of their sci-fi/thriller/Tarantino-esque themes/tastes. That is what is happening in that video when he pulls her back into him with a strap on her neck. The whole (very brief) video starts with a close-up of him putting a glove on his hand and then finding Brandi's "character" standing in the hall. There is no real context as to what the story was actually about, but as stated above, if one has seen their other videos, they would have an idea of the possible theme that "production" would have ventured into. She could have been playing some kind of "enemy" or Doom-esque "monster" that he had to capture or something. That does not demonstrate his manner of "flirting" with girls, although there is no doubt he probably liked the fact that he was able to be so close to her like that, because he had a crush on her.

Then you go on to say:

lasttrain wrote:

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him, as is obvious in the "Eric in Columbine" video where he asks her to lunch and she later shows up and is happy to talk to him.  She later said that "he was always really sweet."  The video also shows him flirting with other girls as well.

You discuss Brandi in the cafeteria video, and imply that she was receptive to Eric when he invited her to sit with him at lunch. She actually blew him off. He says "They casually look over here and pretend not to see us". She did not come over to them. On another day in the cafeteria (it is evident by the clothing changes) Eric and his friends sit and talk with Brandi. She primarily interacts with Vendegnia in that portion of the video. She is not really receptive to Eric at all, although she is not completely ignoring him, either.

In this same quote, you go on to say that another clip of him sitting next to BRANDI is him "flirting with other girls as well".

It is not the end of the world if you or anyone else has not seen the entirety of the "miscellaneous" video footage, which includes "Eric in Columbine" (as it has been titled on youtube). However, you are using gifs from this footage and claiming that ONE girl is multiple girls, and that Eric is at ease whilst flirting with "ALL" of them.

He really wanted Brandi's attention, and did not hide it. But he was still a bit nervous and shy about it.

There was a very good looking girl in a short skirt who was sitting at a nearby table. When she stood up, all of the other guys at the table with Eric were drooling over her, and if you pay close attention when you watch it, Eric barely glances in her direction because his attention is focused on (hoping that) Brandi will be coming over to his table (at least at that time).

The only gifs you have used from this footage are of Eric and BRANDI. One of them is from a film class production they had to partake in; some sci-fi/thriller themed story. You use this media with the intent to further demonstrate his "supposedly" uninhibited, sexually aggressive, astonishingly confident demeanor with females. You state that this "evidence" showcases his interaction with multiple females, at that. In actuality, it is only ONE girl---these clips show the same girl (Brandi), and she is not flirting with him at all. Considering this, that portion of your post is very misleading (especially to anyone who has never seen the videos and does not know much about the entire case).

lasttrain wrote:

3) Yes, Eric got girls, but he also got rejected sometimes.  Of course, Eric faked a suicide, sent harassing messages, made offhand comments about murder, and was actively plotting homicide against most of the girls in the school.  No wonder he met with rejection!

I find it really offensive to blame Columbine on rejection by girls.  No girl owes a man her body, especially one who is a homicidal psychopath.  

Rejection did not make Eric a homicidal psychopath.  Being a homicidal psychopath caused him to get rejected.

I agree with you entirely when you say that NO ONE owes anyone else physical/sexual/romantic attention or favors.

However, I don't see how the bulk of your opposition in this thread implies "blaming Columbine on rejection by girls".

People are pointing out that Eric was not successful with girls. This is an argument against Dave Cullen repeatedly trying to shove the MYTH that he was successful with females down everyone's throats.

There is no contradiction at all in my argument guys.

Being a pushy psychopath will get you some girls, but it will also cause you to get rejected by others.

If you look at Eric's history there are girls all through it--a total contradiction of the idea that Eric is a longer who was rejected.

But we also see girls running in the other direction because he's a nutcase.

There is no contradiction there and I would bet this is actually a pattern in the lives of lots of male psychopaths.

The only GIFs that I used are from Eric and Brandi, but she is not the only girl in that video. Tiffany Typher, I believe, comes over to the table, and it is clear that she is receptive to talking to Eric.

These girls faces are blurred out, and their specific identities matter less than the basic fact:

Eric got girls, flirted with girls, talked to girls, etc.

He was not rejected by them, or isolated from them, and nor did rejection inspire his desire to murder him, his own lies notwithstanding.

I think people really have a hard time grasping the fact that they weren't adults. Their lives were based on what they knew of high school. Did the revolt against society and use it as a means to justify what they did? Sure. Does that make it okay? Of course not.

Try to remember what you were like in high school. I was bullied and I bullied others. After realizing how much and little things meant, i moved forward, but they did not. That is the tragedy, because as much as bullying is portrayed by media to speculate on their reasoning, the honest truth is that there were many factors that played into the incident. I am not an advocate to prosecute the parents buy Mr Harris certainly had a chance to intervene in the situation, but so did a lot of people. Who knows if it would have changed the events that day, but it could have at least moved the incident back.

lasttrain wrote:

The only GIFs that I used are from Eric and Brandi, but she is not the only girl in that video.  Tiffany Typher, I believe, comes over to the table, and it is clear that she is receptive to talking to Eric.

Yes, and while using these gifs, you tried to make it seem as though Brandi was more than one female, attempting to present this as evidence that Eric was a sexually self assured, unbridled, almost predatory lothario. From everything you have been saying, this is all in defense of Cullen's assertion that this is "fact".

In reality, it is the polar opposite, despite the utterly deplorable acts Eric and Dylan ended up committing later on. Violence is hideous, but just because a person or people are drawn to one type of violence, it does not mean they are immediately capable of, let alone interested in sexual violence.

I get into this in an old post [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (<---**And quickly, on another entirely unrelated note (this has nothing to do with you, lasttrain), if anyone has seen this post before, I am the one who created this linked post last year, not the person who plagiarized it (without ANY sort of credit or sourcing) on tumblr a few months ago this year. Not trying to say my post is anything spectacular, but obviously it was good enough for this individual to steal portions of, almost word for word, and try to pass it off as their own).

Eric knew Tiffany for a good while, and he went to the homecoming dance with her. After that, she didn't want to go on any other dates with him, so he played a trick on her (and all of his friends were in on it with him), pretending he smashed his own head in with a rock, and used fake blood for a further effect. That is rather elaborate for a 14-15 year old kid, but was it entirely sinister, or was it very young teen boys being typically idiotic? I feel it was the latter for the most part.

All of that said, in time, Eric and Tiffany became friends again, but that is ALL. When you become friends with someone for a few years, especially when you share classes with them in high school, of course you are going to feel comfortable talking to them.

It is actually Mike Vendegnia who is being FLIRTATIOUS with Tiffany in that video, in fact, he gets really risque in his conversation with her. Eric really does not say anything to her. There is no flirtatious interaction between Tiffany and Eric at all.

Again, of course Tiffany felt comfortable around Eric, they were friends and classmates.

lasttrain wrote:

These girls faces are blurred out, and their specific identities matter less than the basic fact:

Eric got girls, flirted with girls, talked to girls, etc.

He was not rejected by them, or isolated from them, and nor did rejection inspire his desire to murder him, his own lies notwithstanding.

Everyone in these videos have their facial identities pixelated, aside from Eric and Dylan, obviously.

Eric TRIES (barely) to flirt with ONE of them. And that is Brandi. She is the ONLY girl he is trying to flirt with, and he is nervous. His FRIENDS, namely Mike Vendegnia, are trying to help him out concerning this. Eric is SHY about it. He speaks in a very quiet tone when he tells Brandi they are going down stairs and to meet them down there (and she doesn't end up doing so).

The person flirting and being sexually explicit in his commentary and interaction with females is MIKE VENDEGNIA.

MIKE is the one talking about sex non stop.

MIKE is the one making sexually charged commentary to Tiffany about having a lollipop in her mouth, and then goes on to be incredibly misogynistic by saying: "She brings all of this on herself."

MIKE is the one telling Eric Veik to turn the camera on all of the different girls.

MIKE knows Eric Harris wants Brandi to sit with him, and MIKE keeps telling Eric to "go get her", and then he even offers: "Do you want me to go get her for you, Eric?".

MIKE is the one having an aneurysm over the girl in the short skirt.

There is nothing wrong with these boys finding girls attractive and alluring overall, I'm just pointing out who was actually FLIRTING and seemingly CONFIDENT with females in those videos, and it was NOT Eric Harris, that's for sure.

Eric was not completely and totally isolated from females, but they did not really respond to him, and the few of them who did were only friends, or if they were interested in him romantically, it was short lived. The only question mark in this realm is Susan DeWitt. I personally believe that would have blossomed substantially.

Eric never blamed what he was going to do on lack of female attention. Dylan didn't, either. In fact, Eric said, more than once, to blame no one but Dylan and himself.

brewcrew86 wrote:

I think people really have a hard time grasping the fact that they weren't adults.  Their lives were based on what they knew of high school.  Did the revolt against society and use it as a means to justify what they did?  Sure.  Does that make it okay?  Of course not.

Try to remember what you were like in high school.  I was bullied and I bullied others.  After realizing how much and little things meant, i moved forward, but they did not.  That is the tragedy, because as much as bullying is portrayed by media to speculate on their reasoning, the honest truth is that there were many factors that played into the incident.  I am not an advocate to prosecute the parents buy Mr Harris certainly had a chance to intervene in the situation, but so did a lot of people.  Who knows if it would have changed the events that day, but it could have at least moved the incident back.

Excellent points, brewcrew86.

The first part of your post is a VERY important observation and point.

It seems to me that due to the gravity of their horrendous final actions, they forget that they were very young kids. It is not to say that they didn't know right from wrong, because they did overall. But many people do view them as fully formed grown adults, and it skews their entire interpretation of their mindsets and their actions.

tfsa, you are missing the forest for the trees.

Mj2beat asked me to explain the "rejection of people and girls" that inspired Columbine, and I responded to him that there was no such rejection, with a list of girls.

The fact that I didn't realize that other girl was Brandi does not change the substance of my argument.  Surely Eric's orientation to women does not depend on this one tiny shred of evidence, and the fact that it was Brandi actually makes my point stronger.

The fact that Mike is more flirtatious than Eric is irrelevant.  I never said Eric was the MOST flirtatious person at Columbine, only that he was flirtatious.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Eric never blamed what he was going to do on lack of female attention.

Not so fast my friend:

Eric Harris wrote:

If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable.... You know what, maybe I just need to get laid. Maybe that'll just change some shit around.

And from his last statement

Eric Harris wrote:

Right now I’m trying to get fucked and trying to finish off these time bombs. NBK came quick, why the fuck can’t I get any? I mean, I’m nice and considerate and all that shit, but nooooo.

Doesn't the "should have died" list also include girls who are known to have rejected him?

Let's actually go back to the first post you made in this thread, lasttrain, and then continue on from there. I know this is going to be long, but I think with all of the backtracking and contradictions, it should be done in this manner.

The title of this thread is "Do you think that bullying played a huge role?"

lasttrain wrote:

Bullying was not the cause of Columbine, nor did it play a huge role.  

The reason is that bullying happens a lot, but such a shooting is very rare.

To find the cause of Columbine, you have to find the factor that made it a shooting instead of a common case of bullying.  That factor is the extreme personality disorders that plagued the shooters.

People project their own experience with bullies onto Eric and Dylan.  They "identify" with them.  That's a fiction of their own creation.

Eric and Dylan were not like you.

It all started with this, which personally, I agree with overall.

I think certain people will dwell upon the bullying factor because it suits their own situations.

This is not to say that NO ONE harassed them. One of their co-workers, actually, a co-manager at Black Jack (Jason Secor, under the username "Venturo") posted on SCMRPG and described one situation rather vividly.

These quotes can be found [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

(The thread linked above is rather difficult to read, and the reason it is like that is because I copied it from SCMRPG and saved it to a document, as I found the information fascinating. Then I shared it here when SBB was taken offline, and it looked as though it was never going to be put back online. Considering SBB is now back online as an archive, it can be accessed here in its original form).

"Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:54 pm


Venturo

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33


Lporter101, no I have not read that book. I was asked to consult on a book with someone about 2 weeks after all this, and at that time, we were and still are utterly disgusted with any media folks. Maybe same person? Not sure. They are bottom feeders. Anyways, they didn't mention ketchup and tampons specifically, they were repeatedly hurt and upset by things at school, But whenever I tried to inquire, they would clam up and refer to them as "faggots", which is what they pretty much called everything they didnt like. I do know this though, one day they both came to work out of breath and upset. I asked why. They said that a bunch of jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at them. We ran out back to nobody there. This happened more than once. I don't remember eric(reb) being a chick magnet. That sounds somewha far fetched, as these two were in more of a clique than anything (trench coat mafia thing). Dylan was NOT scared of reb. That is ridiculous. Those two were pretty much inseparable. The had one spat for a day or two, and I don't recall Dylan running away or cowering in a corner by any stretch. A couple of peas in a pod for sure."


"Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:14 am


Venturo

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33


Thank you again. I had forgotten some of that. Man do I remember right now.

As for chasing the jocks away, it was like I said. They were all pissed and winded one day and came running into the store. Asked what was wrong, to which they replied "nothing, just some faggots". Of course i prodded further, and said what about these "faggots"? They replied "some faggots are fucking with us" Of course now I was curious, and being the smart ass I am, I teased them to lighten em up a bit and tell me what was going on. I said "so a bunch of faggots are picking on ya and your all upset?". They said "some faggot jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at us". I said "where?? Out back here??" reb said "just now out back." I said "let's go get em!" we ran out back and looked around, but no one was there. Then apparently they decided I deserved a bullet in the head, little pricks. Anyways, that's almost verbatim, and happened a couple times similarly. I was 26 and full of bravado then so forgive my aggressiveness, hopefully I have matured a bit."

So, they were harassed and bullied sometimes. BUT, they also bullied others, themselves.

BOTH of these issues are ALSO addressed by multiple people in the 11K.


Next, Mj2beat replied to you:

Mj2beat wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Bullying was not the cause of Columbine, nor did it play a huge role.  

The reason is that bullying happens a lot, but such a shooting is very rare.

To find the cause of Columbine, you have to find the factor that made it a shooting instead of a common case of bullying.  That factor is the extreme personality disorders that plagued the shooters.

People project their own experience with bullies onto Eric and Dylan.  They "identify" with them.  That's a fiction of their own creation.

Eric and Dylan were not like you.

One of the things, why many young people is interested in cases like Columbine is the way they feel related with Eric and Dylan. Many lived the same social rejection and isolation that are clearly facts on Eric and Dylan personalities and lives. I am agree that they had a personality disorder but a social problem contributed with it and their actions, just like in many similar cases. Is possible that they didnt live bullying like others but since their childhood, they experienced situations with people of their age and problems to fit in at the school and many of their few friends and people on Columbine confirmed how they were insulted, rejected and a couple of losers. Say that something social like bullying or rejection didnt affect them, is like say that guns are the only problem. Many things contruibute in these cases and is not only something simple like gun laws or family interaction, all the society is responsable and unfortunately, many people is living the same, many others are considered losers too and anyone is like anyone because all the people is different but relate to them is not a sin either and is possible.

lasttrain wrote:

I don't believe Eric and Dylan were socially isolated.  In the 11k are dozens if not more than a hundred students who report having spent time with them socially.  It is also full of people who are interviewed as "associates" of the two.  Eric and Dylan both participated in significant social activities, like bowling.  In all the publicly available videos we see them collaborating with friends on creative projects.

They were not socially isolated and there is no evidence that they experienced more bullying than they themselves dished out.

Mj2beat wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

I don't believe Eric and Dylan were socially isolated.  In the 11k are dozens if not more than a hundred students who report having spent time with them socially.  It is also full of people who are interviewed as "associates" of the two.  Eric and Dylan both participated in significant social activities, like bowling.  In all the publicly available videos we see them collaborating with friends on creative projects.

They were not socially isolated and there is no evidence that they experienced more bullying than they themselves dished out.

And how do you explain the depression that they clearly showed and stated in things like their journals?, how do you explain the rejection of people and girls that they stated too?, or you prefer to follow what Cullen said and not Eric and Dylan that are the ones who lived their own lives?, yes they had friends but were not lots of friends either and they werent popular, they couldnt event get a girlfriend or at least many dates. Dylan was very shy, something that could affected him and Eric was always the new and weird kid of the school. Also, those friends had stated how they were socially rejected many times, how the people used to look at them weird and called their names. It, in a teenage boy, can have a bad consequence too because the human being always want to be accepted and want to fit in everywhere at that age. There is something beyond a personality disorder, things that can be the result of that. This is a social problem, where everyone is involved.

I respect your opinion and that you are agree with Cullen but you shoulnt be only with what he said or you read on the 11k. There are a lot of many other things that are better proofs of what they had to live. Including books, since Cullen's book is not the only one that exist about this subject.

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

I don't believe Eric and Dylan were socially isolated.  In the 11k are dozens if not more than a hundred students who report having spent time with them socially.  It is also full of people who are interviewed as "associates" of the two.  Eric and Dylan both participated in significant social activities, like bowling.  In all the publicly available videos we see them collaborating with friends on creative projects.

They were not socially isolated and there is no evidence that they experienced more bullying than they themselves dished out.

And how do you explain the depression that they clearly showed and stated in things like their journals?, how do you explain the rejection of people and girls that they stated too?

Just because you have friends doesn't mean you can't be depressed.  Dylan was depressed despite having lots of friends and a family that wholeheartedly supported him.  Eric was not depressed, but he sometimes used the language of depression and isolation to justify his homicidal ideation and sadism.

I don't see any proof of unfair rejection by girls.  Dylan apparently never approached the girl he was so in love with.  He went to prom with another.  

Eric had lots of girls.  He went to homecoming freshman year with Tiffany Typher. Susan DeWitt in her letter wrote of his long flirtation with her. The "Eric in Columbine" video shows him happily flirting with girls and talking to them.  The 11K interviews with associates are full of his interactions with girls, and some are flirtatious.   And Bill Briggs and Jason Blevins, who interviewed huge numbers of students in the week after the shooting, write "He told girls they looked nice . . . His computer talents also landed Harris a girlfriend. Through an on-line chat last summer, he met a local teenager and began dating her around July or August."  

Of course, Eric did receive some rejection, because he was so forward.  I mean, he put fake blood on himself to make it look like he had committed suicide in order to impress one girl.  Of course you are going to be rejected sometimes if you do stuff like that.  Most of Eric's rejection by girls was probably a result of his extreme pushiness, evident in this GIF where he grabs a girl by the neck and twists her:

4

Please don't tell me this guy is sitting in his room weeping over rejection.  Eric Harris was a harasser and murderer of women, not a spurned romantic.

Mj2beat wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

I don't believe Eric and Dylan were socially isolated.  In the 11k are dozens if not more than a hundred students who report having spent time with them socially.  It is also full of people who are interviewed as "associates" of the two.  Eric and Dylan both participated in significant social activities, like bowling.  In all the publicly available videos we see them collaborating with friends on creative projects.

They were not socially isolated and there is no evidence that they experienced more bullying than they themselves dished out.

And how do you explain the depression that they clearly showed and stated in things like their journals?, how do you explain the rejection of people and girls that they stated too?

Just because you have friends doesn't mean you can't be depressed.  Dylan was depressed despite having lots of friends and a family that wholeheartedly supported him.  Eric was not depressed, but he sometimes used the language of depression and isolation to justify his homicidal ideation and sadism.

I don't see any proof of unfair rejection by girls.  Dylan apparently never approached the girl he was so in love with.  He went to prom with another.  

Eric had lots of girls.  He went to homecoming freshman year with Tiffany Typher. Susan DeWitt in her letter wrote of his long flirtation with her. The "Eric in Columbine" video shows him happily flirting with girls and talking to them.  The 11K interviews with associates are full of his interactions with girls, and some are flirtatious.   And Bill Briggs and Jason Blevins, who interviewed huge numbers of students in the week after the shooting, write "He told girls they looked nice . . . His computer talents also landed Harris a girlfriend. Through an on-line chat last summer, he met a local teenager and began dating her around July or August."  

Of course, Eric did receive some rejection, because he was so forward.  I mean, he put fake blood on himself to make it look like he had committed suicide in order to impress one girl.  Of course you are going to be rejected sometimes if you do stuff like that.  Most of Eric's rejection by girls was probably a result of his extreme pushiness, evident in this GIF where he grabs a girl by the neck and twists her:

4

Please don't tell me this guy is sitting in his room weeping over rejection.  Eric Harris was a harasser and murderer of women, not a spurned romantic.

Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you  read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

It depends on what you consider as "having".
In fact Eric dated a lot of girls, there can be no doubt about that. Its also a fact, however, that he did not have much success beyond that. Most of the girls typically dropped him after one or a few dates, because they found him so awkward. The only girl he dated for a longer time was Sasha Jacobs and so far I know, the didn't quit in good terms.
I think it would be interesting to know, if Eric ever kissed a girl. If so, I think Sasha Jacobs would be the most likely candidate, just because they dated for a longer time.

I'm pretty sure, that Eric died as a virgin, basically because he indicates it in his journal (something like "If I just could got laid, maybe that would change some of the fuck around me"). It also doesn't seem like he ever had a real girlfriend for a longer time. So despite some success with girls, the disappointment should outweigh it with a frustrating amount.

Now:

lasttrain wrote:

tfsa, you are missing the forest for the trees.

Mj2beat asked me to explain the "rejection of people and girls" that inspired Columbine, and I responded to him that there was no such rejection, with a list of girls.

The fact that I didn't realize that other girl was Brandi does not change the substance of my argument.  Surely Eric's orientation to women does not depend on this one tiny shred of evidence, and the fact that it was Brandi actually makes my point stronger.

The fact that Mike is more flirtatious than Eric is irrelevant.  I never said Eric was the MOST flirtatious person at Columbine, only that he was flirtatious.

Here is your response to Mj2beat "explaining the rejection of people and girls":

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you  read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting.

Yes, Eric had lots of girls, and Cullen is accurate on this point (though he is wrong about Brenda Parker).  The only time Eric didn't get girls was when he acted crazy and turned them off.

You want an analysis based on a reading of the evidence?  Here you go:

Freshman year he went to prom with Tiffany Typher, and later faked a suicide to scare her.

Valerie Lage dated Eric in 1996 (11k page 19017).

Dated Sasha Jacobs from 1997-1998 (page 960), but began stalking and harassing her until she had to change her screen name.

Katie Thompson went out with Eric in 1999 (p. 1221) until her mother put a stop to it.

Jen Laufenberg worked with Eric at Tortilla Wraps and hung out with him a lot outside of work, but did not date him because he was a coworker.

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him, as is obvious in the "Eric in Columbine" video where he asks her to lunch and she later shows up and is happy to talk to him.  She later said that "he was always really sweet."  The video also shows him flirting with other girls as well.
 
Kristi Epling had a crush on him, which was the basis of tension between himself and Nate Dykeman.

Susan Dewitt accompanied Eric to prom and wrote a letter to him after he died.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

The 11K and video evidence shows him getting a lot of girls.  How many people go to prom as a freshman?

Please, do explain how this illustrates that he "got girls".

He DID get SOME girls to pay attention to him, and go out with him a few times. One came to his house to watch a movie on the day of the prom, days before the massacre, as well.

HOWEVER, NONE of these interactions seemed to grow or continue at all.

Your original argument claims that this is due to him "being a psychopath":

lasttrain wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I'm pretty sure, that Eric died as a virgin, basically because he indicates it in his journal (something like "If I just could got laid, maybe that would change some of the fuck around me"). It also doesn't seem like he ever had a real girlfriend for a longer time. So despite some success with girls, the disappointment should outweigh it with a frustrating amount.

If you are a psychopath and think that all girls owe you, then yes you might feel more rejection than most.  But in this case the psychopathy is the cause of the rejection, not the other way around.  

Hale-Bopp wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I'm pretty sure, that Eric died as a virgin, basically because he indicates it in his journal (something like "If I just could got laid, maybe that would change some of the fuck around me"). It also doesn't seem like he ever had a real girlfriend for a longer time. So despite some success with girls, the disappointment should outweigh it with a frustrating amount.

If you are a psychopath and think that all girls owe you, then yes you might feel more rejection than most.  But in this case the psychopathy is the cause of the rejection, not the other way around.  

Not sure what you want to indicate. The cause for the rejection was that this girls did find Eric awkward and strange. I don't know if his psychopathy was the reason for that.
And certainly you don't have to be a psychopath to be frustrated over the fact, that you are 18 and still a virgin. I think every average male would be very very unhappy with that.

Not much of what you have said here "proves" that Eric "was successful with girls", or "got lots of girls".

It does indicate that he was sometimes able to hold their attention for brief periods of time. Every single girl he approached did not deny him attention or phone numbers.

But that does not mean it worked, and it does not mean he wasn't ultimately rejected. Because, if someone decides to spend time with you and then stops, it does equate to them rejecting you. (NO, NO ONE is OBLIGATED to continue spending time with ANYONE, for any reason, the point is, HE WAS REJECTED).

Eric was able to have A FEW girls reciprocate interest, but he was STILL REJECTED in the end. The only one that does not fit into this is Susan DeWitt, but that was DAYS before the massacre.

Now back to this:

lasttrain wrote:

tfsa, you are missing the forest for the trees.

Mj2beat asked me to explain the "rejection of people and girls" that inspired Columbine, and I responded to him that there was no such rejection, with a list of girls.

The fact that I didn't realize that other girl was Brandi does not change the substance of my argument.  Surely Eric's orientation to women does not depend on this one tiny shred of evidence, and the fact that it was Brandi actually makes my point stronger.

The fact that Mike is more flirtatious than Eric is irrelevant.  I never said Eric was the MOST flirtatious person at Columbine, only that he was flirtatious.

How does the point that the other photo/gif of Brandi (which you originally tried to imply was "another girl") not change the substance of your argument, and how does it actually make your point stronger?

You said:

lasttrain wrote:

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him, as is obvious in the "Eric in Columbine" video where he asks her to lunch and she later shows up and is happy to talk to him.  She later said that "he was always really sweet."  The video also shows him flirting with other girls as well.

This comes from your "list of girls", that you claim helps to "prove" the fact that "he got girls".

How does this make any sense?

Brandi did not reciprocate his feelings. She is talking to Eric while he is among a GROUP of other kids. She is talking to all of them, when she talks to him at all. Otherwise, she blows him off during the other times he asks her to sit with him, she tries talking to another kid ("Jeremy"), hoping it will make Eric get the hint and leave her alone.

Please explain how this is not rejection, and how it equates to him "getting girls".

Also, once again, please explain how even though you originally tried to say Brandi was another girl (which was an attempt to prove he was not shy and was flirting with multiple females with ease) "makes your point stronger".

lasttrain wrote:

tfsa, you are missing the forest for the trees.

Mj2beat asked me to explain the "rejection of people and girls" that inspired Columbine, and I responded to him that there was no such rejection, with a list of girls.

The fact that I didn't realize that other girl was Brandi does not change the substance of my argument.  Surely Eric's orientation to women does not depend on this one tiny shred of evidence, and the fact that it was Brandi actually makes my point stronger.

The fact that Mike is more flirtatious than Eric is irrelevant.  I never said Eric was the MOST flirtatious person at Columbine, only that he was flirtatious.

lasttrain wrote:

The 11K and video evidence shows him getting a lot of girls.  How many people go to prom as a freshman?

The 11K proves that he was able to get some girls to give him their phone numbers and hang out a few times. The video footage proves that a girl he had a crush on did not feel the same way at all, and just because on one day of this footage she didn't completely ignore him, she was not focused on him or reciprocal to him at all. His associate Mike was the one who was openly flirtatious and even somewhat sexually forward in his conversations and interactions. Mike is the person who is primarily conversing with Brandi. Eric Veik talks to her more than Eric Harris does.

You said Eric was pushy, forward, and confident, and you used a gif from a mystery/sci-fi/thriller themed film class project with Brandi in an attempt to visually illustrate this.

lasttrain wrote:

 

Of course, Eric did receive some rejection, because he was so forward.  I mean, he put fake blood on himself to make it look like he had committed suicide in order to impress one girl.  Of course you are going to be rejected sometimes if you do stuff like that.  Most of Eric's rejection by girls was probably a result of his extreme pushiness, evident in this GIF where he grabs a girl by the neck and twists her:

4

Please don't tell me this guy is sitting in his room weeping over rejection.  Eric Harris was a harasser and murderer of women, not a spurned romantic.

Eric did behave obnoxiously toward many girls; yes he did.

He harassed Sasha online after they broke up, and he wrote awful things about her in someone's yearbook, even though she went to another school.

Another girl who went out with him 3 times says he would not stop calling her after she declined going on any more dates with him, and then he finally stopped.

And yes, Eric got his friends to go along with him in staging a fake suicide to get Tiffany's attention, which made her quite irritated.

Regardless, the gif being used is incredibly misleading. It has nothing at all to do with anything concerning this part of him.

This makes no sense at all, and it absolutely is backtracking and intensely contradictory.

lasttrain wrote:

1) The fact that I misspoke about the prom does not hurt my argument.  Actually, it helps it.  Susan DeWitt chose to skip prom to spend the night with Eric.  That proves he got girls.

2) I am not sure I follow the critique of my point about Tinklenberg.  All I said was that he is flirting with her in videos.  I didn't say what day it was.  But it doesn't matter.  Eric is flirting with/touching girls in these videos.  CLEARLY he is not isolated from them or shy.

3) Yes, Eric got girls, but he also got rejected sometimes.  Of course, Eric faked a suicide, sent harassing messages, made offhand comments about murder, and was actively plotting homicide against most of the girls in the school.  No wonder he met with rejection!

I find it really offensive to blame Columbine on rejection by girls.  No girl owes a man her body, especially one who is a homicidal psychopath.  

Rejection did not make Eric a homicidal psychopath.  Being a homicidal psychopath caused him to get rejected.

This is not just nitpicking, either. It is not trivial.

You have used gifs attempting to prove a point, and when it is brought to your attention that they are not at all representative of what you are attempting to illustrate them as being, you either ignore it, or quickly address it but at the same time twist it entirely around to make it seem as though you are still right, and in so many words, try to make it seem that the focus on these erroneous "examples" is trivial.

You go on to try to turn the entirety of the opposing opinions into "people blaming columbine on rejection by girls" when NO ONE EVER SAID THAT in this entire thread.

This subject veered into Eric and females because people pointed out that his rejection included that of females.

Not one of them (in this thread) said he or Dylan did this because of lack of success with females, or that the primary motivation for what they did was due to rejection from them.

You said this when it was pointed out that the examples you were using were incorrect, misinformed, and misleading.

lasttrain wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

Eric never blamed what he was going to do on lack of female attention.

Not so fast my friend:

Eric Harris wrote:

If people would give me more compliments all of this might still be avoidable.... You know what, maybe I just need to get laid. Maybe that'll just change some shit around.

And from his last statement

Eric Harris wrote:

Right now I’m trying to get fucked and trying to finish off these time bombs. NBK came quick, why the fuck can’t I get any? I mean, I’m nice and considerate and all that shit, but nooooo.

Doesn't the "should have died" list also include girls who are known to have rejected him?

The blurbs you used from Eric's journal are NOT BLAMING FEMALES for what he is about to do.

He is complaining and feeling sorry for himself with regard to them, of course. But females are NOT the REASON he did this, and he isn't even saying they are.

EVERYONE, in some way or another, was on this deranged hit list. His own AUNT was on it, for the love of God. Celebrities he'd never meet under any circumstance were on it.


In summation:

This is not being said to make you feel uncomfortable here, or to insult you, let alone disrespect you.

You have said, over and over again, that Cullen is not wrong about Eric getting girls.

You have admitted that he was wrong for using the Brenda Parker story, which is enormous, but continued to repeatedly defend Cullen's "version" of Eric, in this thread and others.

You use photos of one person trying to say she is more than one person, and another photo entirely out of context as a visual representation of Eric being sexually aggressive and overtly confident.

When you finally address this, you say it was an oversight, but you go on to say that despite that, it further solidifies your point.

Regarding this, again, please explain how it makes your points concerning this even stronger.

Your list of girls does explain that he was not 100000000% isolated from them, yes.

Your list of girls does not back up Cullen's claims that Eric essentially "outscored the football team", or whatever.

There are some people who believe this ridiculous extreme (that EVERY female outright rejected him; didn't give him ANY chance at all), but Cullen's claims are just as outrageous; they are two different entirely unrealistic extremes. And you are defending Cullen's extremes and promoting them, and making quite a few mistakes while trying to do so.

These mistakes have been pointed out, because they are substantial in this context. Yet every time you respond, you attempt to defend these errors even further in a manner that is incredibly deflecting and misleading.

It is fine if you and others (including myself) do not agree with each other overall.

You believe the "theory" that Eric was self assured and successful with females. Of course, that is your right.

However, a great deal of the information you are using to attempt to prove this is incorrect or excruciatingly out of context, and deflection is being used when this is pointed out.

tfsa, in your long recap of this discussion, the only thing you are right to dispute is that I was wrong about Eric's prom night (where I simply misspoke) and that I misidentified a girl whose face was blurred (which is a minor error).

While I admit that I was wrong about both of these things, I do not believe that they are significant enough errors to invalidate my argument, which is that Eric got girls.

In fact, the fact that you are limited to critiquing these two minor errors over and over proves that my large body of evidence still stands.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Also, once again, please explain how even though you originally tried to say Brandi was another girl (which was an attempt to prove he was not shy and was flirting with multiple females with ease) "makes your point stronger".

Because it shows that he had a significant interaction with one girl over a period, instead of two fleeting interactions with two different girls.

In my opinion, the former means a lot more than the latter, and I wish I had known it was her.

lasttrain wrote:

tfsa, in your long recap of this discussion, the only thing you are right to dispute is that I was wrong about Eric's prom night (where I simply misspoke) and that I misidentified a girl whose face was blurred (which is a minor error).

While I admit that I was wrong about both of these things, I do not believe that they are significant enough errors to invalidate my argument, which is that Eric got girls.

In fact, the fact that you are limited to critiquing these two minor errors over and over proves that my large body of evidence still stands.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Also, once again, please explain how even though you originally tried to say Brandi was another girl (which was an attempt to prove he was not shy and was flirting with multiple females with ease) "makes your point stronger".

Because it shows that he had a significant interaction with one girl over a period, instead of two fleeting interactions with two different girls.

In my opinion, the former means a lot more than the latter, and I wish I had known it was her.  

How does it prove that he had success...with her? He was attempting to get her attention, and failed.

Brandi did not return his interest or feelings and you refuse to acknowledge that.

He did not "get her". She didn't want him. She was somewhat friendly to him in class, but she did not like him. That is not "getting a girl" at all.

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you  read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting.

Yes, Eric had lots of girls, and Cullen is accurate on this point (though he is wrong about Brenda Parker).  The only time Eric didn't get girls was when he acted crazy and turned them off.

You want an analysis based on a reading of the evidence?  Here you go:

Freshman year he went to prom with Tiffany Typher, and later faked a suicide to scare her.

Valerie Lage dated Eric in 1996 (11k page 19017).

Dated Sasha Jacobs from 1997-1998 (page 960), but began stalking and harassing her until she had to change her screen name.

Katie Thompson went out with Eric in 1999 (p. 1221) until her mother put a stop to it.

Jen Laufenberg worked with Eric at Tortilla Wraps and hung out with him a lot outside of work, but did not date him because he was a coworker.

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him, as is obvious in the "Eric in Columbine" video where he asks her to lunch and she later shows up and is happy to talk to him.  She later said that "he was always really sweet."  The video also shows him flirting with other girls as well.

Kristi Epling had a crush on him, which was the basis of tension between himself and Nate Dykeman.

Susan Dewitt accompanied Eric to prom and wrote a letter to him after he died.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

The 11K and video evidence shows him getting a lot of girls.  How many people go to prom as a freshman?

The three that cannot be disputed are Tiffany, Sasha, and Susan.

In this thread, I have never denied that he was able to "get" those three.

He "got" Tiffany to go to a homecoming dance with him. After that, she didn't want to see him "romantically" again. They became friends--ONLY friends, later on. But there is no denying that she "rejected" him.

He went on dates with Sasha over a period of a few months. Then they stopped seeing one another; she didn't want to see him that way any longer. He harassed her online and said cruel things about her elsewhere after she stopped going on dates with him. Ultimately, she rejected him.

Does this make either one of these girls bad people? Not at all. We weren't there to know how or why they no longer wanted to spend time with him. But the point is, they rejected him in the end.

Still, that does not change the fact that he was able to get their attention, and did somewhat succeed. Yet, at the same time, it still doesn't prove Cullen's claims what so ever.

Susan was interested in him (or at least comfortable enough with him), to spend time with him at his house. She didn't reject him, she simply declined attending the prom. She is a big "question mark" because there is no way of knowing if she would or wouldn't have spent time with him again, considering he murdered people and took his own life a mere few days later.

So in these three cases, girls were receptive to him, for a short time.

If he did date Valerie, then that is another case of a girl being receptive to him. It didn't work, though, obviously.

He took Katie Thompson out, along with her friends. And her mother did not approve, but ALSO, Katie told her friends she didn't really like him anyway. She said he wasn't her type, and that she found him to be strange/weird.

From what we have access to, Jen liked him as a friend. Jen talked to him online. She had a boyfriend and wasn't necessarily interested in him in any other way.

Kristi is somewhat mysterious, because from reading what is available, it is very obvious she liked him quite a bit as a person no matter what. Correct me if I am wrong (anyone), but the claims that he didn't like her in the same way are not entirely substantial. They came from commentary that is not in the 11K, but from LiveJournal. That is not to say it is untrue, but it seems as though it was mutual, at least at different times. Kristi dated other guys throughout all of this. But, yes, Kristi liked him, whether or not she had a crush on him is uncertain, as far as I can recall. (AGAIN, she very well could have). This is discussed quite a lot here. From SCMRPG/sbb.

Not on your list is another girl he went on 2-3 dates with (her name might be Michelle) and when she refused to see him again, he became very harassing with phone calls.

Brandi was remotely cordial to him, but honestly had no interest in him.



You believe that Dave Cullen's assertion that he essentially "outscored" the jocks/popular kids is infallible.

It is very difficult to see how this information/this list proves that.

It proves that he wasn't 100% shunned every time he made a move (meaning, getting a girl to hang out with him or give him their phone numbers), it proves that other females liked him as a person and as a friend (even some who had been put off by him initially, like Tiffany) but it does not prove in any capacity that he was successful with them.

That is what your argument is. That he was successful and "got lots of girls", and that Cullen is not wrong when he said this.

Your argument does hold up against anyone who says Eric was crippled by fear in the presence of females, and that he was constantly shunned by every single human being he ever met.

This argument does not back up Cullen's over exaggerated version of this part of Eric's personality and overall being.

Brandi is a terrible example, but the fact is, she is the one that is in the only video footage that is publicly available.

The point is, Eric was not a confident ladies man, and considering how superior he liked to make himself seem in his writings, I would think there would be an extraordinarily vast amount of bragging concerning this subject if he was actually as successful as Cullen claimed.

It's likely he'd say things along the lines of:

"Psssshhh, why are these scumbag shitheads always making fun of me? I ALWAYS get girls. Probably more than them, in fact."

"I hate so many things about this fucked up world, and I want to blow it up, but at least I know I can easily get a chick. It happens all the time!"

"I can't stand how I look. I think I'm a goofy looking bastard, but somehow I've been able to get an endless array of girls. Don't know what it is, but everyone knows it's true!"

"I love getting together with all of these girls, but it doesn't matter. Everyone needs to die because I hate this fucking world. So I'm going to make sure I get in as many chicks as I possibly can before the big day. Hope they enjoy it because it might be their last time! Anyone in my line of fire is dead, I don't care who it is".


Instead he writes that he has no confidence because he hates how he looks, and he thinks females hate how he looks, too. He feels excluded, and nothing that he has tried to establish ever lasts very long at all.

Does this indicate there was possibly something wrong with him; that he was giving off bad vibes? Well, of course, considering he was capable of doing what he did on the last day of his life.

It still does not prove he was able to easily get and KEEP "lots of girls". It proves that he wasn't entirely isolated from every single person (male or female) that he ever came into contact with. There is no way to logically argue that this makes him a self assured romeo who did even better with the opposite sex than the pretty boys/jocks/popular guys.

If the point being made was that he was not a completely isolated loner, you'd definitely be entirely right, and there'd easily be tons more to back that up (his other friends and some of the things they did together).

The point that is actually being made is that Cullen is supposedly completely accurate when he repeatedly tries to paint Eric as a strutting, over-confident peacock of a gigolo with multiple broads dangling off of both arms, and that IS what Cullen portrays him as having been.

I have something I want to interject. It is obvious that he didn't like his aunt. We all know that Eric was not a person who was able to get over any slight or hurt or wrong that was done to him. I believe that was one of his main problems. His inability to process his anger or emotions left him unable to ever come to any other place emotionally, therefore he stayed mad. Call me naïve but I do not think he would have actually killed or hurt his aunt even if he had a chance. I don't think he would have ever hurt anyone in his family.

PaintItBlack wrote:

It is obvious that he didn't like his aunt.

Uh, not sure I ever heard of that (didn't read the 11k from start to finish) , please tell me more about that.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I have something I want to interject. It is obvious that he didn't like his aunt. We all know that Eric was not a person who was able to get over any slight or hurt or wrong  that was done to him. I believe that was one of his main problems. His inability to process his anger or emotions left him unable to ever come to any other place emotionally, therefore he stayed mad. Call me naïve but I do not think he would have actually killed or hurt his aunt even if he had a chance. I don't think he would have ever hurt anyone in his family.

I don't think he would have hurt anyone in his family, either. I honestly don't.

(I've said before that I think neither he or Dylan really "enjoyed" killing people at close range, because in the end, everyone who had made eye contact with them and spoke directly to them ended up staying alive. Valeen, John, Bree, and even Evan, who was someone that was known to be intolerant of others. Like I said before, they thought the bombs were going to do all of the work, and that they might have been able to shoot people at a distance while they were fleeing. That is very "removed" and impersonal. It is still a heinous act, and they did commit it, so I am not making excuses for that by saying this then or now. But I REALLY do not think they could cope with it while they were doing it----they did it, but they could have done a lot more and they didn't.)

I brought up the fact that Eric put his aunt on this "hit list" because lasttrain tried to say that because Eric made remarks about females in his journals, and that girls were on that hit list, it proved he was somehow blaming them for the massacre. Essentially "everyone" was on that hit list, including his aunt, AND celebrities he'd never meet for any reason.

That basically proves to me, at this time at least, that even though they committed this massacre, the hit list was in many ways a sarcastic joke.

I know it is difficult for some to separate these things from their final actions, but there is so much sarcasm and hyperbole in many of the things they wrote, especially Eric.

I find so much of it to be darkly comical BEFORE the massacre. I want to make that clear: BEFORE the massacre, if you really look at the things they wrote, the videos they made, and so on, you will see a very pronounced, eccentric sense of humor, and I feel that is what some of the stuff on the early hit lists they made was.

Really, I mean celebrities? It was a joke; they probably couldn't stand them, and just melded it all into this list with the people they didn't like that they knew personally.

Again, I know it is hard to separate that when one is aware that these two kids ended up murdering other people.

Damn, this thread got real real, real quickly.  Can we all just agree Cullen more than likely doesn't give one single fuck about the posters or posts here?  

And I wasn't a ladies man in high school, but i had around 8 girlfriends, with 3 months being the max time for relationship.  I wasn't ULTIMATELY REJECTED when it ends, that's just how high school goes sometimes.

You both have points, Eric wasn't beating guts every weekend like people say Cullen seems to suggest, but he also wasn't sitting around at home with no one to talk to every week/end.  

And i'm definitely interested in the Aunt story also.

brewcrew86 wrote:

Damn, this thread got real real, real quickly.  Can we all just agree Cullen more than likely doesn't give one single fuck about the posters or posts here?  

And I wasn't a ladies man in high school, but i had around 8 girlfriends, with 3 months being the max time for relationship.  I wasn't ULTIMATELY REJECTED when it ends, that's just how high school goes sometimes.

You both have points, Eric wasn't beating guts every weekend like people say Cullen seems to suggest, but he also wasn't sitting around at home with no one to talk to every week/end.  

And i'm definitely interested in the Aunt story also.

Yes, that is just how high school goes sometimes. In the end, these girls didn't want to continue being around him. But it doesn't mean he was ignored and shunned by everyone.

One poster here was trying to make points with erroneous information, and they were using this to prove that an incredibly misinformed, preposterous version of this subject is the irrefutable truth.

The thing is, some people only have bits and pieces of information about this subject, and some of the larger points and facts need to be addressed while discussing different parts of it.

No one (that I am aware of) thinks (or cares if) Cullen gives one single fuck about the posters or posts here.

He used blatant lies as "proof" in his book, and made up a number of others.

Multiple people believe his version of events as if it is gospel. It is the only "source" they (CHOOSE) to have and to use. If they want to do that and keep it to themselves, that is fine. If they want to come to areas of discussion where the people have looked into this subject while utilizing critical thinking skills, they are going to have these things pointed out to them.

That is what is going on in this particular thread.

Over and over again you will see people say "One was a depressive and one was a psychopath. The psychopath basically forced the depressive to do this. It is all the psychopath's fault".

Then they get into how they KNOW the psychopath was a veritable Hugh Hefner and that he was loved, adored, and respected by everyone, so it proves that he really was soulless and did this because he was not a human. This all comes from reading Cullen's book and not venturing any further. If they don't want to look into this any deeper, then they shouldn't be arguing with people who actually do.

It has nothing to do with thinking Cullen is going to care. When people make these comments, it is an attempt to get those who want to have a dialogue about the subject but believe his book to be the end all be all, to look into things with a bit more depth.

(And if anyone wants to use the "well, it's his opinion...." argument, then he (and anyone else) shouldn't be aggressively marketing "his opinion" as the "definitive truth").

Magnaphoria wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

It is obvious that he didn't like his aunt.

Uh, not sure I ever heard of that (didn't read the 11k from start to finish) , please tell me more about that.

brewcrew86 wrote:

And i'm definitely interested in the Aunt story also.

CN 1489 Karen Shepard 7-2-49 [Eric's Aunt on his mother's side] - her name was on 1 of only 10 on Eric's List

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (Thanks to sororityalpha).

Karen is Katherine's (Eric's mother's) twin sister.

Oh so it was obvious he didn't like his Aunt because she was on the shit list.  I thought there was a surrounding event to read about why she was there.  Thanks.

Oh and I wasn't stating you did, i'm saying there have been paranoid posts in multiple threads of people stating they are unsure if the person promoting what you said cullenists do isn't cullen himself.  Pretty sure it was quoted in this thread but the posts and quotes are too long to look through ATM.  

Again I wasn't attacking you, losttrain or anyone else, just stating my opinion on this.

Here is the quote. "Eric had lots lots of girls??, do you hear about all the rejections he received in his senior year for prom?. Lets do this, I will debate again with you, till you read more about the case and make a better analysis, then your arguments can be more valid because they wont be from a random book like right now. This, if you are not Cullen, something that I am suspecting." posted by mj2b above, just for one example.

brewcrew86 wrote:

Oh so it was obvious he didn't like his Aunt because she was on the shit list.  I thought there was a surrounding event to read about why she was there.  Thanks.

Oh and I wasn't stating you did, i'm saying there have been paranoid posts in multiple threads of people stating they are unsure if the person promoting what you said cullenists do isn't cullen himself.  Pretty sure it was quoted in this thread but the posts and quotes are too long to look through ATM.  

Again I wasn't attacking you, losttrain or anyone else, just stating my opinion on this.

No problem!

I've never read anything specific about why he had issues with her. If someone else knows, perhaps they will post it here?

The item that had Eric's Aunt on it was from some other paper/source, NOT the Shit List

Item # ???
CN 1472 Female - First Name Only & Phone # on List - name/email on Eric's computer
CN 1489 Karen Shepard 7-2-49 [Eric's Aunt on his mother's side] - her name was on 1 of only 10 on Eric's List

sororityalpha wrote:

The item that had Eric's Aunt on it was from some other paper/source, NOT the Shit List

Item # ???
CN 1472 Female - First Name Only & Phone # on List - name/email on Eric's computer
CN 1489 Karen Shepard 7-2-49 [Eric's Aunt on his mother's side] - her name was on 1 of only 10 on Eric's List

Thank you very much for that clarification. I remember reading someone discussing this on SCMRPG, and they probably got this confused, and so did I.

We should just put Cullen's book on the fiction shelf and call it a day.

So Eric's aunt was NOT on his hit list at all? Right?

PaintItBlack wrote:

So Eric's aunt was NOT on his hit list at all? Right?

According to this list provided by sororityalpha, no.

She was on a list, but according to sororityalpha, it wasn't a "hit list" of any kind, but some other source (listed as "Item # ???").

I read someone discussing this a long while back (before sbb, or this present forum), and I looked at the list in question back then, too.

The person who was discussing it back then must have confused these blended lists as being multiple hit lists. When I looked at them, I did the same, and I've never seen anyone correct it until now.

Sorry for all of the confusion about this. The immense amount of documents concerning this situation are confusing to read sometimes; the titles of them, and the length of them, and things like this can happen.

That's ok.There is so much information it happens to all of us at times.Thank you for clarifying.

tfas, you've written some very lengthy posts, but I don't think you have refuted my argument.

You have been really hard on me about the two errors in my post, accusing me of being "very misleading." But you just made an error yourself about Eric's aunt and you were very quick to excuse yourself and say that "things like this happen." Maybe you should extend that same courtesy to those you debate after they've retracted an error?

Judged by any reasonable standard, Eric got lots of girls. I've listed them above. And the rare video footage we have of him in high school shows him flirting with varying success. Maybe this isn't lots of girls according to your standard, but it is certainly enough to refute the idea that Eric was a tortured loner out to get those who had rejected him.

This is my final post on the matter.

I don't think they were evil but they had some major anger issues and inferiority complexes  .I think that they were hated because peoples loved ones were dead or brutally murdered and  no justice could be served in the aftermath of all that they had done.They couldn't go to jail, there couldn't be be any answers why they did what they did.It was basically unheard of at that time even though there had been school shootings before.Maybe it was easier to say evil than mental issues because that made them seem more evil that just bullied kids looking to settle a score (even if only in E/D mind) even though many say Eric was psychotic or sociopath and couldn't feel real remorse  or just a bad person in general.I think they were bullied to some extent, but even maybe any rude /hateful/sarcastic comment or action could have set them off with fragile ego's they had .                 Do many people find it off Dylan was labeled as a follower and made excuses for by many when he did the same crime and felt mostly the same rage as Eric? Do you think it was because he was a native and Eric just moved there when he was 12 and labeled in some ways a new comer?  Forgive any misspellings this my second post on this board and i would love to hear your thoughts please.. thank you

lasttrain wrote:

Judged by any reasonable standard, Eric got lots of girls.  I've listed them above.  And the rare video footage we have of him in high school shows him flirting with varying success.  Maybe this isn't lots of girls according to your standard, but it is certainly enough to refute the idea that Eric was a tortured loner out to get those who had rejected him.

Except the "TEAM ERIC" fangirls I don't think anyone says he was a tortured loner. But your opinion on him and girls screams troll to me. That's my opinion.
and my last post replying to you on this matter as I'd like not to stir up a shitstorm.

lasttrain wrote:

tfas, you've written some very lengthy posts, but I don't think you have refuted my argument.

You have been really hard on me about the two errors in my post, accusing me of being "very misleading." But you just made an error yourself about Eric's aunt and you were very quick to excuse yourself and say that "things like this happen."  Maybe you should extend that same courtesy to those you debate after they've retracted an error?

Judged by any reasonable standard, Eric got lots of girls.  I've listed them above.  And the rare video footage we have of him in high school shows him flirting with varying success.  Maybe this isn't lots of girls according to your standard, but it is certainly enough to refute the idea that Eric was a tortured loner out to get those who had rejected him.

This is my final post on the matter.

Yes, and this is my last response to you as well concerning this topic.

Firstly, and most importantly (to me) I made it clear that I was not trying to cause you discomfort, and that none of this was being said as an act of disrespect toward you. This is a discussion and a debate.

What error did you even retract? You claim that even though you didn't know Brandi was the same girl in all of the photos you have used, you try to say it makes a point even stronger that he "had substantial interaction with a female".....how is shyly flirting with a girl who could not possibly care less about you having a substantial interaction with her?

I definitely did make a mistake, and unlike a huge portion of the population, including yourself in this thread, I ADMITTED IT IMMEDIATELY. I DID NOT "excuse" myself. I didn't edit this mistake, and I repeated it in multiple posts before I was corrected. I posted that I believed a source from another forum, and read the same list they did, and that I was entirely incorrect, and apologized for it.

You cannot bring yourself to do the same. No one called him a tortured loner in this thread. Saying so is obviously manipulative deflection and diversion.

In the lengthy posts I made, I clearly stated that he was not a loner, and that every girl didn't outright shun him (and that if anything, your list proved that). But he never had anything serious going on with a girl. Also, I addressed everything on your list, and even backed some of your list up, as well as added to it (at least one girl was missing), but it still does not defend Cullen's assertion.

Cullen's REAL base for this claim you are backing up is actually a LIE, which is that Eric had sex with a woman in her early 20s when he was only 16/17 years old. Take that away, and one is grasping at straws to desperately prove Cullen is right even though that "minor tidbit" (which is not minor whatsoever) is incorrect.

This is very tedious, and I was initially wondering what the purpose of the backtracking and denial was. But as stated previously, this one particular conversation is indeed over.

lasttrain wrote:

tfas, you've written some very lengthy posts, but I don't think you have refuted my argument.

You have been really hard on me about the two errors in my post, accusing me of being "very misleading." But you just made an error yourself about Eric's aunt and you were very quick to excuse yourself and say that "things like this happen."  Maybe you should extend that same courtesy to those you debate after they've retracted an error?

Judged by any reasonable standard, Eric got lots of girls.  I've listed them above.  And the rare video footage we have of him in high school shows him flirting with varying success.  Maybe this isn't lots of girls according to your standard, but it is certainly enough to refute the idea that Eric was a tortured loner out to get those who had rejected him.

This is my final post on the matter.

I don't really think anyone has been all that hard on you, I think they are debating your "facts", because, in my opinion, you are sounding quite a bit like Cullen himself. You will not listen to reason, you will not listen to anything anyone else has to say even though several people have made very good points supporting their opinions and you just keep saying the same thing "Oh Eric got girls because one girl sat next to him in a video and spoke to him (even though she looked annoyed as all hell and was flirting with another man).

Honestly, you really have nothing supporting that Eric "got" girls. Kind of like Cullen, he had nothing to support this theory either, that is why he made up this stupid story about Eric sleeping with this older woman. To actually "get" a girl, they are your girlfriend, you spend time with them, you are intimate with each other. "Getting" a girl is not sitting next to her at a lunch table or harassing her online. Eric had little success with girls and he even SAID SO himself in his journal. So, it's like, who are you going to believe? This idiot who made up a fictional story to sell a book or the guy who actually SAID "WHY CAN'T I GET ANY"? And any girls that Eric went on dates with, and I wouldn't call a few dates "getting" a girl either, they all turned out horrible and the girls ended up not liking him anyways. So he didn't really "get" those girls, now did he?

I don't see how anyone can take Cullen or his stupid book seriously? Anyone who has actually done some research on Columbine anyways. I do not understand how anyone who knows quite a bit can actually pick up this book, read it and say "OMG he is so right". When I watch interviews with Cullen, I just laugh at what an idiot he sounds like. "This is EXACTLY what Dylan was thinking". How the fuck does he know? That shit pisses me off more than anything else. Cullen saying he knew what they were thinking. How come no one ever points that out to him. How come in his interviews these people never say "Well, how do you KNOW that Dylan/Eric was thinking that?"

Anyway, long story short, Eric didn't "get" girls. He never "got" any girls. He even said it himself and I believe him over an idiot trying to sell a fake ass book.

It wasnt. A lot of it had to do with Erics anti- social behaviour. Also, their original targets were just as much directed towards police and possibly television stations at the scene. IDK exactly with Dylans motive.

I think a lot of it is just pure speculation. Its hard to pick apart if you are not a pshychologist or any other expert of some sort. I believe that it depends on what research you rwly on, but yes, its obvious that they didnt retaliate for being bullied. Even if they were bullied and even if that may be a considerable problem for them, I dont think thats an adequate explanation.

Needles to say, I would argue that a lot of it boils down to the sources of information we use. Its hard to say 100% for sure , because they are both dead.

Also, I think a lot of it so complicated that professionals are better equipped at answering the more complex and difficult questions. But, in any case, many people in the TCC are budding criminologists, though. But given that I lack the basic education and I research only out of curiosity, I feel like it's hard to create my own theories, as thats probably too complicated without the proper skills. I think Langman had some interesting perspectives given that hes a child psychologist, and have worked exstensively with children that are at risk of becoming violent perpetrators.

Norwegian wrote:

I think a lot of it is just pure speculation. Its hard to pick apart if you are not a pshychologist or any other expert of some sort.

Honestly I feel like the experts are guessing just as much as us sometimes.

PaintItBlack wrote:

That's ok.There is so much information it happens to all of us at times.Thank you for clarifying.

I think it's more about interpretation, basically, as there is so much information provided about Columbine, that its possible to come up with different views around the attack and what led to the massacre

The TCC is a bit more complex as we are everything from people that are metely interested in the shooting to criminologists. Also, the sources of information that people rely on

tfsa47090 wrote:

midema wrote:

Regarding bullying not being the cause of school shootings:

Despite what many American authors say there are hundreds it not thousands of articles exploring the subject. These are written by Psychologists and Psychiatrist and some include interviews with surviving school shooters. The ones I have read to date all state the same thing: the shooters were social outcasts who lacked many social skills.


I think the most damaging in the case of Eric and Dylan is exclusion and the fact that they did not have a strong support system.  

These are very good points, midema.

There is still a distinct difference between Eric and Dylan and most school shooters (not necessarily all, because I have not read ALL of the stories about every school shooter at this point).

That difference is:

*The length of time they planned this.

*The scope of what they ACTUALLY intended to do (BLOW UP the school; the shooting portion of this was initially supposed to be an "after effect", I suppose you could say. They planned on shooting people at a distance as they were fleeing the explosion they thought was going to occur. They ended up improvising when the bombs failed to detonate).

*The fact that they were a duo.

A large majority of the others may have planned it in their minds way ahead of time, and perhaps a few days prior (like Cho making his videos/manifesto etc.), but for over a year? That is quite different. And again, the fact that they did this as a duo. That really stands out in the context of this subject.

But many people don't seem to understand that even though these two did have people who liked them, or seemed to like them, in that environment in that community and school, they were considered very strange, and that can be "classified" as being outcasts, at least somewhat.

I also agree 1000000000000% with the point that they didn't have social skills, and there does seem like there was exclusion, and I don't think the support systems were strong at all, if they even existed. I feel that they didn't think that they could talk about how they felt concerning these instances and issues because I think everyone wrote it off with the "oh, everyone goes through this. It'll all be over once you get out of there", when it actually doesn't get much better. A large majority of people continue to behave in the same way even as "adults". (I discussed this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] as well. The thread linked also discusses the same question posed here in this thread).

And another thing that springs to mind to possibly support this is the fact that Susan DeWitt stated in the 11K that Eric talked to her about how a certain person was bothering him because he had basically hurt his feelings/was talking behind his back. This is a girl he had come to really like, and the only girl who hadn't entirely shunned him or wrote him off after spending a small amount of time talking to him or hanging out with him. For him to want to vent something like that to a girl who was alone with him at his house, when he was aching for female attention, says quite a lot in my mind. He really needed to vent about it to someone and possibly get some sort of feedback from them; someone else aside from Dylan.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I think that bullying played a role, but I read Eric's journal and think, "This kid has lost his mind."  Did people bully him into wanting all gays to be killed?

sergeant hartman, I also feel that it might have been a small piece in what started all of this, but I don't feel it was strictly just the bullying, either.

Eric was not in his right mind. He was on notoriously bad psychotropic drugs. And much like the bullying factor, these drugs aren't the entire cause, but they are more than likely a factor. (The drug issue is discussed quite a bit [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])

Dylan was not in his right mind, either.

All of these elements just hit them the wrong way, and it was amplified and synchronized between the two of them. They did not know how to cope, they really did not have anyone paying proper attention. That doesn't mean it is their fault, whoever "they" all might be. Apathy did play a part in it, though. Not only from the two that committed this crime, but everyone around them that just shrugged their shoulders, rolled their eyes; thought it was just hyperbole when they said some of the things they did (particularly Eric). Including his therapists/shrinks/counselors/ad infinitum.

Here's another point to ponder, in my opinion:

Where did Eric hear all of this racist, homophobic rhetoric from? It is true that in SOME ways he (and Dylan) were old enough to know right from wrong; in many instances. However, I feel it is very curious that he had friends who were of all races when he lived in the other states/cities/towns, but when he moved to Colorado, he suddenly started saying such things.

This is open for debate on all sides, I would like to emphasize that.

I understand that he may have harbored those views all along and hid them and felt more comfortable spewing them in a predominately white suburb, but it is something I find, as I said, rather curious. Did it come from the home? Was anything said to him in the past about having friends of other races? I know we will never know for sure, but I feel it is worth thinking about.

I would look more into scholarly research. I have the impression that they do not agree to what extent bullying plays a role, but I guess if the reaserch can be re-produced, they are controlled etc, its possible to come to a logical conclusion.

Only experts Ive heard about except for Peter Langmann would be Frank Ochberg, Reid Meloy Jack Levine Northeasterner.