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 Victims Families on E/D and their Parents

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Wideawake
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queenfarooq




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PostSubject: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeWed May 21, 2014 8:12 pm

There seems to have been a lot of discussion on the forum lately where we have talked about parents blaming parents, and how much of the blame has been placed upon the Harris and Klebold families.
There are unlimited quotes out there which document the various comments that have been made by the families of those killed at Columbine, and how they feel towards Eric, Dylan and their families.  

I thought the following few quotes may be of interest. All quotes are taken from the 13 Families Documentary:

Quote :
Columbine was pretty bad, it's not happy little never never land. It's high school. As far as Eric and Dylan themselves are concerned, they're victims too. It takes something to get somebody to that point where they are so depressed and they are so angry that the only way they can see out of their black hole, or whatever you want to call it, is an event like Columbine. Obviously those kids were crying out for help, they needed help and nobody paid attention to them.
- Angela Sanders - Dave Sanders Daughter

Quote :
It's hard to forgive. But we have to remember that when we forgive we are not forgiving what action took place. We are forgiving so that we can go on and still be good people.
- Patricia DePooter - Corey's Mom

Quote :
There's no way i can ever forgive them, they took Lauren from us. They've completely changed this family, and, you know, consequently to forgive them for that i can't do it.
- Bruce Beck - Lauren's Stepfather

Quote :
I'm still angry at Klebold and Harris and I always will be, but I don't let it consume me.
- Don Fleming - Kelly's Dad

Quote :
I just don't have the hate. There was a time when i was very angry, and anymore, i just, i don't even have the energy for that. It's just... it is what it is.
- Sue Petrone - Danny R's Mom

Quote :
I've chosen not to view them as monsters, I've chosen not to view them, as anything other than young men who made choices that lead them down a dark path, and ended up taking their lives, their parents suffered deeply, just like we suffered.
- Darrell Scott - Rachel's Dad

Quote :
Klebold's parents sent us a card that basically had been written by their lawyer, you know, no compassion in it. Basically you know saying they're, quote unquote "sorry," but sorry really didn't come through in the words.
The Harrises, we sat across the table from and not once did they say we are sorry that you lost your daughter. You know, they didn't say it because they know they own some responsibility in this. They know they own some responsibility in it, and it's one of those things that, you know will drive me crazy for the rest of my life.
- Bruce Beck - Lauren's Stepfather

Quote :
Occasionally somebody says I can't think of anything worse than what you experienced and I think there is something worse than what I've experienced, and that is if my son, my boys had done what Eric and Dylan did. To me that would have been a lot worse. Because these people lost their children and they lost any semblance of a good memory.
Darrell Scott - Rachel's Dad
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iceflames




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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeWed May 21, 2014 9:15 pm

queenfarooq wrote:
There seems to have been a lot of discussion on the forum lately where we have talked about parents blaming parents, and how much of the blame has been placed upon the Harris and Klebold families.
There are unlimited quotes out there which document the various comments that have been made by the families of those killed at Columbine, and how they feel towards Eric, Dylan and their families.  

I thought the following few quotes may be of interest. All quotes are taken from the 13 Families Documentary:

Quote :
Columbine was pretty bad, it's not happy little never never land. It's high school. As far as Eric and Dylan themselves are concerned, they're victims too. It takes something to get somebody to that point where they are so depressed and they are so angry that the only way they can see out of their black hole, or whatever you want to call it, is an event like Columbine. Obviously those kids were crying out for help, they needed help and nobody paid attention to them.
- Angela Sanders - Dave Sanders Daughter

Quote :
It's hard to forgive. But we have to remember that when we forgive we are not forgiving what action took place. We are forgiving so that we can go on and still be good people.
- Patricia DePooter - Corey's Mom

Quote :
There's no way i can ever forgive them, they took Lauren from us. They've completely changed this family, and, you know, consequently to forgive them for that i can't do it.
- Bruce Beck - Lauren's Stepfather

Quote :
I'm still angry at Klebold and Harris and I always will be, but I don't let it consume me.
- Don Fleming - Kelly's Dad

Quote :
I just don't have the hate. There was a time when i was very angry, and anymore, i just, i don't even have the energy for that. It's just... it is what it is.
- Sue Petrone - Danny R's Mom

Quote :
I've chosen not to view them as monsters, I've chosen not to view them, as anything other than young men who made choices that lead them down a dark path, and ended up taking their lives, their parents suffered deeply, just like we suffered.
- Darrell Scott - Rachel's Dad

Quote :
Klebold's parents sent us a card that basically had been written by their lawyer, you know, no compassion in it. Basically you know saying they're, quote unquote "sorry," but sorry really didn't come through in the words.
The Harrises, we sat across the table from and not once did they say we are sorry that you lost your daughter. You know, they didn't say it because they know they own some responsibility in this. They know they own some responsibility in it, and it's one of those things that, you know will drive me crazy for the rest of my life.
- Bruce Beck - Lauren's Stepfather

Quote :
Occasionally somebody says I can't think of anything worse than what you experienced and I think there is something worse than what I've experienced, and that is if my son, my boys had done what Eric and Dylan did. To me that would have been a lot worse. Because these people lost their children and they lost any semblance of a good memory.
Darrell Scott - Rachel's Dad

I've always wondered why he just mentioned the Harrises owning some responsibility. I wonder if it's because they said no form of apology while the Klebolds sent a card. Anyway it seems like a lot of people (at least on tumblr) want the parents to share Angela Sanders point of view on it. Obviously it's not that simple since they are all different people.
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PaintItBlack

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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeThu May 22, 2014 11:10 pm

Thank you for sharing these quotes. It's very sad to me that some say they will never forgive, but its not surprising to me either. I do think that Lauren's stepfather was very harsh on both families. Eric's parents probably were afraid to say anything since I'm sure it was a hostile environment for them. I don't think I would want to say anything if I was sitting around a table with 30 angry people who were suing me either. They probably thought saying something might be taken the wrong way. And considering his negative reaction to the card the Klebolds' sent ,He probably would have found fault in anything they said anyway. It's sad but he doesn't seem to have any empathy for their loss. I know that's his right and you can't make somebody feel empathy, but I can't help but wishing that everybody could understand that E &D lost someone amazingly precious to them too.

I found the statement by Corey's Mom very puzzling. When you forgive someone, you forgive them for an action they did. If they didn't do something you found hurtful or wrong what would there be to forgive? So when she says they are not forgiving the action that took place, that does not make sense to me.

I loved the quotes by Angela Sanders and Rachel's dad. They were very encouraging and refreshing.
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PaintItBlack

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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeMon Jun 16, 2014 11:17 pm

I've been thinking about what I said here and although I agree with most of my comments, I feel sort of badly for saying that it's sad they can't forgive because even though its best to forgive I can understand why these people would never want to. I've never been in their exact situation so I don't know firsthand what they've been through. I can imagine what it was like but I haven't lived it.I do think it is worth noting though that the people who have forgiven like Rachel's family are the ones that seem to have found any peace with this.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeTue Jun 17, 2014 5:16 am

I look at it this way with Laurens step dad: Lauren was shot the most times. Her body was a mess! I'm sure her parents had to view her body in that condition to identify her. That's something you never forget. Also they probably read her autopsy report. It wasn't released publicly as far as I know so it could have been horrific. On one of the reports (Isaiah?) It said the bladder was empty which means he urinated himself. Stuff like that is extremely hard to think about. I think Isaiah was also the one on the 911 transcript who cried for his mom right before he got shot. I'm sure those images and sounds haunt all the parents.

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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeTue Jun 17, 2014 9:45 pm

Yes, I'm sure it does.I think everyone who died was identified by dental records. I think that is standard procedure even if the person is identifiable in other ways.I believe Lauren died instantly and felt no pain but I guess that doesn't give her family much comfort. I do know that hate and unforgiveness takes a definite toll. Over the years, it wears you down. That's why I said that ones who have forgiven are the ones that seem to have found any peace with this.

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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeFri Jun 27, 2014 12:32 am

I'm impressed by the compassion that Rachel's dad shows toward the Harris and Klebold families. I completely agree with him that yes, in some ways their loss was worse because all of their memories are tainted. But I sincerely doubt I could come to that conclusion if it were my child they killed.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeFri Jun 27, 2014 3:51 am

So how would you feel towards their loss then?


Wideawake wrote:
I'm impressed by the compassion that Rachel's dad shows toward the Harris and Klebold families. I completely agree with him that yes, in some ways their loss was worse because all of their memories are tainted. But I sincerely doubt I could come to that conclusion if it were my child they killed.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeFri Jun 27, 2014 9:07 am

Any theories about why Lauren was shot with the most bullets?
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeFri Jun 27, 2014 11:17 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
So  how would you feel towards their loss then?


Wideawake wrote:
I'm impressed by the compassion that Rachel's dad shows toward the Harris and Klebold families. I completely agree with him that yes, in some ways their loss was worse because all of their memories are tainted. But I sincerely doubt I could come to that conclusion if it were my child they killed.

I have no idea. I can't possibly imagine myself in that situation. I hope that I would, especially with the interest I have in school shootings, be able to be compassionate. But as a parent, my child is probably the most important person in my life. I like to think that I wouldn't outright blame the shooters' families like Lauren's stepdad, but I don't know that I would really care about their loss either. Maybe over the years I would come to do so.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeSat Jun 28, 2014 9:38 pm

Well,then that raises another question ,if you want to answer it.
How would you feel if you were the parent of a child who did a shooting and you were aware that the other parents has no sympathy for your loss? Would you mind or feel that was ok with you?


Wideawake wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
So  how would you feel towards their loss then?


Wideawake wrote:
I'm impressed by the compassion that Rachel's dad shows toward the Harris and Klebold families. I completely agree with him that yes, in some ways their loss was worse because all of their memories are tainted. But I sincerely doubt I could come to that conclusion if it were my child they killed.

I have no idea. I can't possibly imagine myself in that situation. I hope that I would, especially with the interest I have in school shootings, be able to be compassionate. But as a parent, my child is probably the most important person in my life. I like to think that I wouldn't outright blame the shooters' families like Lauren's stepdad, but I don't know that I would really care about their loss either. Maybe over the years I would come to do so.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeSun Jun 29, 2014 4:18 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
Well,then that raises another question ,if you want to answer it.
How would you feel if you were the parent of a child who did a shooting and you were aware that the other parents has no sympathy for your loss? Would you mind or feel that was ok with you?


Wideawake wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
So  how would you feel towards their loss then?


Wideawake wrote:
I'm impressed by the compassion that Rachel's dad shows toward the Harris and Klebold families. I completely agree with him that yes, in some ways their loss was worse because all of their memories are tainted. But I sincerely doubt I could come to that conclusion if it were my child they killed.

I have no idea. I can't possibly imagine myself in that situation. I hope that I would, especially with the interest I have in school shootings, be able to be compassionate. But as a parent, my child is probably the most important person in my life. I like to think that I wouldn't outright blame the shooters' families like Lauren's stepdad, but I don't know that I would really care about their loss either. Maybe over the years I would come to do so.

It wouldn't be okay with me. I would probably be so consumed with grief that I wouldn't much care about what others thought. 15 years later, I expect that I would have come to terms with my loss, what my child had done, and what other people thought about me/my child/how responsible I was. I would do my best to figure out what caused my child to do this thing and what could be done to help other kids before they got to that point. Maybe that would change the way the parents of my child's victim viewed me. I don't know that it matters. Losing your child and knowing that there was this evil inside of them has to be worse than any person's opinion toward you.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeSun Jun 29, 2014 9:50 pm

The reason why I asked is that I can only imagine that it would hurt to know that others have no sympathy for your loss no matter what the circumstances were. Even if its understandable, I think it would still hurt to know that because its just human nature .I don't know if I could not be hurt by that if I were in that situation.

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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeSun Jul 06, 2014 3:08 pm

Different people deal with grief differently. The way they deal with their grief five days after the wound was opened and fifteen years after can change. You can't expect everyone to be selfless right after it happens and not have questions about who or what could have prevented it.

My turn: How would you feel if you were the parent of a murdered child and created a youtube video of them in their memory. What if the killer had tons of fanboys/fangirls on the internet who said your child was an ugly bully who deserved it?

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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeSun Jul 06, 2014 11:28 pm

I would feel hurt,sad and angry at least for a while.I would try to do my best to let everyone know what mu child was really like without putting them so much on a pedestal people would feel like they can't relate.I've never approived of fans going to the Mauser's page and making cruel comments unprovoked. But I have to state that I've seen Mr.Mausers supporters egg things on too by saying nasty things about fans in general which leads to fans seeing it and war breaking out.I was harassed by some of those people once and I didn't say anything offensive so I know its true.

And I'm sorry but I doubt there is anything that E &D's parents could have said or done in the past that would have satisfy Mr.Beck or anyone who feels like him. I don't think anything would ever be acceptable or good enough in his eyes.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeMon Jul 07, 2014 12:02 am

gutenfxckintag wrote:
Different people deal with grief differently. The way they deal with their grief five days after the wound was opened and fifteen years after can change. You can't expect everyone to be selfless right after it happens and not have questions about who or what could have prevented it.

My turn: How would you feel if you were the parent of a murdered child and created a youtube video of them in their memory. What if the killer had tons of fanboys/fangirls on the internet who said your child was an ugly bully who deserved it?


I would just ignore them. Those fans didnt know Daniel Mauser or the other victims, like their parents did. I bet is hard to see those harsh comments and Tom did well making that video, I would do it too but after it, I would just ignore and keep remembering my child in many ways because people will be always annoying and stupid and will always criticize what they dont know at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeWed Jul 09, 2014 2:10 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
I would feel hurt,sad and angry at least for a while.I would try to do my best to let everyone know what mu child was really like without putting them so much on a pedestal people would feel like they can't relate.I've never approived of fans going to the Mauser's page and making cruel comments unprovoked. But I have to state that I've seen Mr.Mausers supporters egg things on too by saying nasty things about fans in general which leads to fans seeing it and war breaking out.I was harassed by some of those people once and I didn't say anything offensive so I know its true.

And I'm sorry but I doubt  there is anything that E &D's parents could have said or done in the past that would have satisfy Mr.Beck or anyone who feels like him. I don't think anything would ever be acceptable or good enough in his eyes.

Are you sure nothing you said offended them? I'm not saying you said any of these things, but the smallest things like appearing to be an apologist or vilifying the community or the columbine families can be offensive, especially to people who were affected by it, have also lost children, or are from that area of Colorado. I haven't seen anything Mauser supporters (aside from the gun control ones- both sides of that can get nasty, including Tom himself, as with any political issue) say anything that bad except calling E&D apologists "pathetic" and that they "need a life", which I'd have to agree with if they cross such a line as going out of thier way to say those things to Tom. Did they PM you on youtube or something? If they did, how did they find you?

I think you're right, nothing they can do can satisfy Mr. Beck for now. Maybe it will take time.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeThu Jul 10, 2014 9:30 pm

No,I did not say anything bad about the victims.I was only only YT talking about how I felt about E &D on another video.I think some of the Mausers supporters followed someone over there or went looking out of curiosity and started it with me.I got pms from those people too.It was like a mob and went on for a few weeks..These people were very nasty to me and no I don't think I deserved it.Between that and the harassment I got from a few members of the old board I got fed up up and left YT .This happened to me so I know they attack sometimes unprovoked.

Sometimes I feel I'm too critical of the families although I try not to be. I just can't agree with things some of them have said and done.It's none of my business if they choose to forgive but it would be better for them if they could.When you are very angry,it takes a long time to realize it sometimes, but hate and unforgiveness does take a serious toll on you.

gutenfxckintag wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
I would feel hurt,sad and angry at least for a while.I would try to do my best to let everyone know what mu child was really like without putting them so much on a pedestal people would feel like they can't relate.I've never approived of fans going to the Mauser's page and making cruel comments unprovoked. But I have to state that I've seen Mr.Mausers supporters egg things on too by saying nasty things about fans in general which leads to fans seeing it and war breaking out.I was harassed by some of those people once and I didn't say anything offensive so I know its true.

And I'm sorry but I doubt  there is anything that E &D's parents could have said or done in the past that would have satisfy Mr.Beck or anyone who feels like him. I don't think anything would ever be acceptable or good enough in his eyes.

Are you sure nothing you said offended them? I'm not saying you said any of these things, but the smallest things like appearing to be an apologist or vilifying the community or the columbine families can be offensive, especially to people who were affected by it, have also lost children, or are from that area of Colorado. I haven't seen anything Mauser supporters (aside from the gun control ones- both sides of that can get nasty, including Tom himself, as with any political issue) say anything that bad except calling E&D apologists "pathetic" and that they "need a life", which I'd have to agree with if they cross such a line as going out of thier way to say those things to Tom. Did they PM you on youtube or something? If they did, how did they find you?

I think you're right, nothing they can do can satisfy Mr. Beck for now. Maybe it will take time.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeFri Jul 11, 2014 3:14 am

You don't need to agree with the families to realize that they're acting how people affected by murder/tragedy act all the time act. You're not the only one who has been too critical of them, trust me, but it's good you're trying to be open-minded. There are an awful lot of people on the internet who are wearing blinders regarding the victims' families and the Columbine community, among other things about Columbine.

Anyone who criticizes the Harris and Klebold families and blames them for this tragedy would be an ignoramus to do so by now. But to those who were directly affected by Columbine, I'd have to cut some slack. To those who learned about Columbine through Dave Cullen, well, that's a different story.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeSun Jul 13, 2014 9:28 pm

I am critical of their actions because I feel that their actions were very hurtful and stressful to the H &K families at times they were undergoing the same Hell with not nearly the same amount of support and sympathy. I am sincerely sympathetic to the victims families' and their terrible loss but it is with the H &K families my deepest sympathy lies. Because of this I feel very protective of them the same way you seem to feel towards the victims families'. I hope this helps understand where I am coming from.

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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeSun Jul 13, 2014 10:22 pm

It's a bridge too far for the parents to forgive Eric and Dylan. They may say they forgive them, but deep down they are probably understandably angry.
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PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeMon Jul 14, 2014 8:29 pm

It's not necessarily so.
It would be a very ,very difficult thing to do. Probably one of the most difficult things one could do but it is possible. I believe the Scotts and Bob Curnow have sincerely forgiven.

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Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Empty
PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitimeMon Sep 29, 2014 6:29 pm

I completely understand victims families not wanting to forgive Eric and Dylan's families, or just not being able to. It's a tragedy they'll never be able to understand, and I'm sure I wouldn't be nearly as sympathetic of the boys if I had lost someone that day. However when I imagine all the pain the victims families feel,and then imagine having all that pain and then also having to know my son was a killer and had taken numerous lives and THEN also account for being ostracized by the community and receiving angry hate mail, having to deal with crazy fan girls and being treated like criminals I dare say their pain is infinitely worse and more excruciating. Then again it's really relative to the individual and I'm sure it feels just as heartbreaking to all parties involved.

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Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Empty
PostSubject: Re: Victims Families on E/D and their Parents   Victims Families on E/D and their Parents Icon_minitime

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