NBC News Transcripts, DATELINE NBC (9:00 PM ET), April 30, 1999, Friday, 3694 words, THE LOST BOYS; WHO WERE DYLAN KLEBOLD AND ERIC HARRIS AND HOW DID THEY BECOME THE MURDERERS AT COLUMBINE HIGH, MARGARET LARSON
Copyright 1999 National Broadcasting Co. Inc.
NBC News Transcripts
SHOW: DATELINE NBC (9:00 PM ET)
April 30, 1999, Friday
LENGTH: 3694 words
HEADLINE: THE LOST BOYS; WHO WERE DYLAN KLEBOLD AND ERIC HARRIS
AND HOW DID THEY BECOME THE MURDERERS AT COLUMBINE HIGH
REPORTERS: MARGARET LARSON
BODY:
THE LOST BOYS
Announcer: From Studio 3B in New York, here is Jane Pauley.
JANE PAULEY: Good evening. What will be the legacy of the shootings at Columbine High and
all the school shootings that came before? Can anything be done to keep a next time from
happening?
(Voiceover) To find some answers, President Clinton today called for a conference on youth
violence, educators, entertainers, Internet experts, and gun manufacturers.
(Voiceover) In Littleton today, we got our first look at the sheriff's command center, where dozens
of investigators are pursuing leads: Were others involved? Where did the killers get their weapons?
Who were Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold? And what we're learning about the boys in the black and
white Columbine High School yearbook pictures is beginning to add up to a profile of potential
killers.
Tonight, Columbine students, some speaking for the first time on national television, help us put the
pieces together. Two friends, a leader and a follower. What was driving them toward such a horrific
ending? Here's Mike Taibbi.
(President Clinton speaking; police command center; photos of Harris and Klebold)
THE LOST BOYS
Unidentified Girl
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: These people didn't start trouble. They didn't start fights. They hung out in their
circle of friends and they didn't bother anybody, and nobody bothered them.
MIKE TAIBBI reporting: (Voiceover) The students who knew Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold
continue to sift through their memories looking for clues. The two teens who turned into killers may
have been part of an odd group at Columbine High, the so-called Trenchcoat Mafia, but they
weren't really scary. Speaking publicly for the first time, student Mikala Scrodin finds herself
agreeing with most of her classmates.
(Yearbook; yearbook photos of Harris and Klebold; Columbine High School; yearbook photo of
Trenchcoat Mafia; Mikala Scrodin)
Ms. MIKALA SCRODIN: Like, what I see with Eric and Dylan is that they were just--they were
yearning for attention.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Weren't really scary, others added, even though in the past year they'd
sometimes add ominous touches to their black garb.
(Photo of Harris)
Unidentified Boy
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: They did wear swastikas sometimes on their trench coats.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) And would openly praise Hitler and his regime of hatred.
(Footage of Nazis marching before Hitler)
Unidentified Boy
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: They didn't like minorities, and they liked what the Nazis were trying to do.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Even though, for a film class, they starred as gun-toting killers.
(Columbine High; photos of Harris and Klebold)
Girl
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: Their fantasy film was that all the athletes died, that they killed all the athletes.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) And for a poetry class, says classmate Terra Oglesbee, Eric Harris would
craft couplets of doom.
(Photo of Harris)
Ms. TERRA OGLESBEE: You know, just not really like pretty clouds and flowers, it was more like
dark clouds and dead flowers.
TAIBBI: If they weren't that scary to most of their classmates, it's perhaps because Eric Harris and
Dylan Klebold, for all the ever darker trappings of their young rebels' poses, didn't seem like the
typical losers at the bottom rung of a high school society. They were good students, and nice looking
to boot, who spent their off hours going bowling, playing video games, planning for college.
(Voiceover) That's why many of their peers were shocked when the killers at Columbine High
turned out to be them, the killers who were somehow able to get four guns, 50 bombs, and an
intricate plan of lethal calculation into a school, executing a teacher and 12 students, injuring dozens,
then turning their shotguns on themselves. Were there any road signs on their individual journeys
toward that terrible final destination?
(Shocked students and parents crying after shootings; SWAT team; stretcher being put into
ambulance; injured students; crime scene tape; photos of Harris and Klebold)
Reverend WILLIAM STONE: He was active in things that young people get involved in, like the
Scouting program and Little League.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Reverend William Stone lived across the street from the Harris' in 1989 when
Eric and his older brother and parents lived in Oscoda, Michigan. Eric had been born in Wichita,
Kansas. But his father, Wayne, an Air Force pilot, moved the family every few years. Reverend
Stone recalled a normal family, and in Eric a friendly, happy nine-year-old.
(Neighborhood; photo of Harris; Oscoda town sign)
Rev. STONE: He was bright. He was also very good at computers at that young age.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) It was all good at the Harris' next stop too, in 1991, at the now closed
Plattsburgh Air Force Base in upstate New York. In the aftermath of the massacre, Eric's friends
poured over the photographs, one in particular to fix their memories of the 11-year-old they knew.
(River; Plattsburgh Air Force Base; teens; group photo including Harris)
Unidentified Girl
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: Him eating scrambled egg pizza in Boston, and he had on like a smile from ear
to ear.
(Voiceover) It was a perfect picture. He looked so incredibly happy.
(Photo of Harris)
Unidentified Boy
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: He was just like the rest of us.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Eric continued with his Scouting and with baseball. Today his Little League
coach can only remember an eager to please, innocent kid from a happy, two-parent family.
(Little League team photo)
Unidentified Man
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: There isn't any way in the world that I could ever conceive that that person
would do this, the person that we know, the Eric Harris that we know. No way.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Dylan Klebold, meanwhile, was another baseball fan and Boy Scout who
spent his whole life in Colorado with his older brother and his parents. His father, Thomas, a
businessman and former geophysicist, and his mother, Sue, an administrator for a disabled students
program. Onetime neighbors Vickey and Randy DeHoff remember a happy family.
(Scouting photo of Klebold; photo of Klebold with friends; Vickey and Randy DeHoff)
Mr. RANDY DEHOFF: They knew what their kids were doing, they cared what their kids were
doing. They were involved, they were there.
Ms. VICKEY DEHOFF: Dylan was just an ordinary, average, happy little guy.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Dylan met Eric when both were in junior high school in 1994. The Harris' had
just moved to Littleton. Friends say from the beginning, Eric was the leader, and Dylan the
follower. They were both young computer whizzes and solid students. And they played recreational
league soccer together, with Eric eventually named team captain. In this home video, seen here for
the first time, he's number seven on the field, described as a good but not great player. And at a
team end of the year banquet, with his hat on backwards and with a smile, one of his rare smiles
according to assistant coach John Shultice.
(Junior high school; computer; footage of Harris playing soccer; footage from team banquet)
Mr. JOHN SHULTICE: A quiet kid, and very stern. You could see that he was one of the kids that
you knew in high school that was intense.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) But though they enjoyed soccer and other sports, they were not good enough
athletes to even go out for Columbine's varsity sports teams. Eric would not follow in the footsteps
of his older brother Kevin, a former varsity football star. Eric and Dylan were never going to join the
jock elite, their school's inner circle. They were outsiders, and saw themselves that way.
(Footage of boys playing soccer; Columbine High; photo of Kevin Harris; kids in school hallway)
Ms. SCRODIN: The jocks didn't like them. They taunted them and teased them and stuff because
of the way they looked.
(Voiceover) There was just so much tension between the groups, kind of like a competition in a
way, and I mean you see it everywhere.
(School bus)
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) After a while it wasn't just jocks the two outsiders said they hated.
(School bike rack; school sign)
Unidentified Girl
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: They hated school, they hated the teachers, they hated just coming to school
every day.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Classmates say the two retreated further and further into a smaller and
smaller world--a world described by how they dressed, mostly all black with long black push coats;
by the music they listened to, German rock groups with their gothic themes of apocalypse and
strike-first violence; and by the computer games they'd play together for hours. Brooks Brown was
a friend of both teens.
(School hall; clip from computer game)
Mr. BROOKS BROWN: I know Eric loved playing Doom. I know Eric loved playing, like, Blood,
and all of these other first-person shooters for computers.
TAIBBI: Millions of teen-agers play those games or listen to that music. Many kids say they hate
their teachers or their classmates, or one clique or another. Many kids do see themselves as
outcasts, or behave in a way that makes them outcasts for awhile. But for Eric Harris and Dylan
Klebold, isolation from the mainstream was not a passing phase. Then, a little over a year ago, as
shown by Harris' diary entries about the planned assault, the quality of their anger changed.
(Voiceover) On March 25th of last year, Harris and Klebold pleaded guilty to felony theft and
trespass, admitting that two months earlier they'd stolen some electronic equipment from a van. As
minors, they were sentenced to a one-year diversion program, a youthful version of probation. In
audiotapes of that diversion hearing, Magistrate Jack DeVita first questions Harris.
(Graphic of court documents; audiotape recorder; photos of Harris and DeVita shown during playing
of tape)
Magistrate JACK DeVITA: (From tape) Now this was the first time you went out and engaged in
this kind of activity, isn't it?
Mr. ERIC HARRIS: (From tape) Yes, sir.
Magistrate DeVITA: (From tape) Why don't I believe that?
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Then the magistrate addresses Klebold, who says he's a B-minus or C-plus
student.
Magistrate DeVITA: (From tape) I bet you're an A student, if you put--put the brainpower to the
paperwork, aren't you?
Mr. DYLAN KLEBOLD: (From tape) I don't know, sir.
Magistrate DeVITA: (From tape) You don't know? Well, when the hell are you going to find out?
You got one year of school left.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Bobbi Spicer supervised the diversion program to which both teens were
assigned. She says it seemed they'd gotten the message, staying in school and even finishing the
program six weeks ahead of schedule because they followed all the rules perfectly.
(Bobbi Spicer working)
Ms. BOBBI SPICER: They successfully completed everything, and they completed it timely or
early. They were very compliant.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) But neither Spicer nor Magistrate DeVita later knew that the two youths
were angrier than ever following their first encounter with the criminal justice system. Friends say
it's because a week after their guilty pleas, Klebold and Harris watched as that same system dealt
differently, in their view, with a group of jocks.
(People walking in front of courthouse window; courthouse)
Mr. ANDREW BEARD: They thought that they should've, I guess, been doing jail time, just like
kicked out of school or suspended for a week.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) It was April 4th of '98, when five Columbine students, including four
athletes, were charged with burglarizing and trashing an apartment in a revenge attack that resulted
in thousands of dollars in damages. The charges against two of the students were reduced to
misdemeanors. But the other three defendants, including state wrestling champ Rocky
Hoffschneider, would plead guilty to felony burglary, and be sentenced to four years probation.
Hoffschneider spent three days in jail and was briefly suspended by his high school, his lawyer says,
though he did go on to graduate with offers of college athletic scholarships. Andrew Beard says his
friend Dylan Klebold was furious over what he saw as a double standard for jocks, not only in
school, but outside as well.
(Graphic of court documents and mug shots of students; Beard walking; Columbine High)
Mr. BEARD: He just went off, he was just like, 'Oh, jocks can do this and that and have--don't have
to worry about what will happen because they just--they can do anything they want.'
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Eric Harris' long-simmering anger now began to include specific threats.
Student Brooks Brown says that after last spring, Harris used his existing Web site and the Internet
for more than just games.
(Photo of Harris; Harris' Web page)
Mr. BROWN: On his Web page he had, 'The top 10 things I hate most,' and I was number one. He
gave out my address and phone number, and said how 'This guy, I'm going to kill him, I'm going to
get a gun.'
(Voiceover) He threatened me. He told me he was going to kill me. He threatened my friends.
(Photo of Harris)
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) When Brooks' parents heard this, they didn't sit idly by. They say they twice
complained to authorities, a claim confirmed by this police blotter item that appeared in the local
paper in March of '98, a father reported that his son had been threatened. The threats were right
there on Eric Harris' Web page. When Judy Brown printed out some of the more violent passages
and gave them to the police, at least one detective said there was reason to worry.
(Judy Brown; newspaper front page; police blotter item; Harris' Web page; sheriff's department)
Ms. JUDY BROWN: He called in his bomb specialist. The bomb specialist showed us what a bomb
would look like, a pipe bomb, so we could look around our yard and under our cars. He was quite
concerned.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) In fact, it was clear from Harris' Web page that his rage was boiling over.
Here are some passages, minus the expletives. "My belief is that if I say something, it goes. I am the
law, if you don't like it, you die. God, I can't wait till I can kill you people. I'll just go to some
downtown area in some big city and blow up and shoot everything I can. Feel no remorse, no sense
of shame. You all better hide because I'm coming for everyone soon, and I will be armed to the
teeth, and I will shoot to kill because dead people don't argue!"
(Voiceover) And how did the Browns find their way to Harris' private Web page? It turns out, Judy
Brown says, that the person who told her son about the Web page was none other than Dylan
Klebold, Eric Harris' best friend.
(Graphic of Harris' Web page printouts; drawings; Judy Brown at home; photo of Klebold)
Ms. BROWN: He said whoever gave it to him was afraid of Eric, and please don't ever tell who
gave--who had given the information. And until this happened, I didn't know that it was, in fact,
Dylan Klebold that had given my son access to the information.
(Voiceover) Now that I look back, I think that maybe he saw it going in a bad direction, maybe that
was a cry for help.
(Photo of Klebold)
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) But Judy Brown says the police did nothing, and her own fears subsided
when her son told her he and Eric Harris had made peace and resumed a friendship. What few
people knew, though, was that for Eric Harris, writing about violence and guns was no longer
enough. During an argument outside a 7-11 last July 4th, witnesses say Harris or one of his friends
allegedly flashed a gun, a pistol grip shotgun. And Harris reportedly told several classmates he'd
begun assembling a whole arsenal of guns and fireworks and bomb components. He told Brooks
Brown that it wasn't just talk.
(Sheriff's department; Brooks Brown; photo of Harris; Harris' Web site; photo of Harris; 7-11;
Harris home; photo of Harris)
Mr. BROWN: He was building pipe bombs in his basement, and he was telling us about them and
how he was detonating them and using fireworks by peoples' houses, just people he didn't like.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) At the same time, Harris and Klebold became more brazen about their
claimed neo-Nazi affections.
(Photos of Harris and Klebold; Nazi swastika)
Boy
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: They spoke German to each other and stuff, and wore clothing sometimes with swastikas
on it and stuff.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) They became more offhand about their obsession with guns, one classmate
recalling a poetry exercise by Harris.
(Guns; photo of Harris)
Unidentified Girl
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: We had to pick an object that we were going to be. He chose a bullet. And we
had to choose a best friend, and Eric chose that his best friend was a gun.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Still, many, if not most of their classmates, saw it all as shock value stuff, the
poems, the essays about "Rambo"-style annihilation, the home video depicting their destruction of the
jocks. Besides, Klebold and Harris were going ahead with their college applications, just like any
seniors. They began working at this pizza parlor, their on-the-job performance just fine. They had no
trouble making their 6:30 in the morning bowling class. Dylan was offered a job at a computer store.
He was accepted by the University of Arizona. And he would even take a date to the senior prom.
So what about all the talk of guns? What about the air of menace, the swastikas?
(Photo of Harris; photo of Klebold; college application; college campus; pizza parlor; bowling alley;
computer store; University of Arizona campus; guns; swastika)
Boy
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: I just thought, you know, maybe they liked this stuff for a day.
Unidentified Boy
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: I knew he was, like, setting off bombs out in the field and stuff, but I know I've had my--I've done my fair share of some of that and, you know, just grab the big firecrackers, go watch them blow up. But it was no big deal.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) But for Eric Harris, the leader between the two, the news was bad and
getting worse by the day. He was turned down by every college he'd applied to. The girl he asked to
the prom said no. And on April 15th, five days before the massacre, Harris tried to sign up for the
Marines and was rejected. The reason--he was taking an anti-depressant drug called Luvox, which
is used to treat obsessive-compulsive disorder. Harris' friends reportedly wonder if he stopped using
the drug in his last days, though Brooks Brown says he never stopped ranting about guns.
(Photo of Harris; footage of emergency workers handling person on stretcher; Marines recruiting
center; three medications; guns)
Mr. BROWN: He was talking about how when he turns 18--he turned 18 and how he was going to
get a gun and how he just wished there wasn't a stupid waiting period.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Two days later, April 17th, neighbors recall loud noises coming from Harris'
garage when it's believed he and Klebold were putting together pipe bombs for their arsenal. And on
the 20th of April, Eric Harris, with Dylan Klebold at his side, stopped waiting. Could the answer to
the terrible puzzle be that simple? That two kids who saw themselves as the losers in a double
standard high school world moved from virtual violence in computer scenarios to planning the real
thing when they felt that double standard existed beyond the school grounds? Dr. Erika Freeman, a
psychiatrist who specializes in treating creative and troubled minds, never met the killers, but has
thought about the last year of their lives.
(Harris' home and neighborhood; footage of Columbine scenes; photos of Klebold and Harris side
by side; computer game; Dr. Erika Freeman)
TAIBBI: Their behavior was different by a degree than it had been the previous year?
Dr. ERIKA FREEMAN: It's the difference between temperature and fever. And nobody
recognized when the fever started.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Today the "if only" questions--"if only I'd known what they were really
thinking and doing"--are haunting to so many people. Eric Harris' parents are in seclusion, but Dylan
Klebold's father Tom reportedly lamented, 'It can't be. My son's not like this. He's not violent.' While
his mother, Sue, according to Judy Brown, who was with her when the news broke, struggled to
understand her son's explosive relationship with Harris.
(Footage of Columbine High scenes; Harris' home; photos of Klebold)
Ms. BROWN: They were afraid he was some way connected because he was a friend of Eric's,
but they couldn't imagine the connection in the violent way.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Others recall what they saw in a backward search for the clues they wish
they'd seen, like the magistrate who sentenced Harris and Klebold to probation last March.
(Footage of SWAT team members approaching school behind fire truck; photos of Klebold and
Harris)
Magistrate DeVITA: I didn't see any red flags. I didn't see any markers. I didn't see any attitude. I
didn't see any dysfunction in the relationship with the boys.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) And to the supervisor whose department released the two from probation.
(Spicer working at desk)
Ms. SPICER: We've spent agonizing time. Even over the weekend we were calling each other and
saying, 'OK, so what about this and what about that?' and 'Maybe we should try this.' We're really
trying hard to see what we could have done.
TAIBBI: But Dr. Freeman says, by then, it was probably already too late.
Dr. FREEMAN: They were sick. And they had the kind of sickness that we never catch. And they
are never caught until they do something horrible.
TAIBBI: (Voiceover) Horrible, of course, does not come near to describing what they did. For days,
we have watched a litany of unspeakable grief, a teacher and 14 children going to their rest instead
of celebrating the richness of another spring. Who could think to author mayhem on this scale? Who
could actually do it, and for what reasons that anyone could understand? Eric Harris and Dylan
Klebold took with them whatever answers they might have had when they turned their guns on
themselves, a final act to make the pain of grieving deeper still.
(Footage of injured persons, memorials, people mourning at Columbine; funeral service; photo of
Isaiah Shoels)
JANE PAULEY: Tomorrow, students from Columbine High and other local schools are planning
to protest outside the Denver hotel where the National Rifle Association is scheduled to meet. The
NRA scaled back its long-planned convention in Denver after the massacre, but it wouldn't cancel
it.
Announcer: This is DATELINE Friday for April 30th, with reports tonight from chief medical
correspondent Dr. Bob Arnot, Margaret Larson, and Mike Taibbi.
Coming up next, he's a husband living with five wives and living outside the law.
MARGARET LARSON reporting: You spent a lot of years feeling pretty sure the law would not
come after you. How confident are you now?
Mr. TOM GREEN: Not nearly as confident. A lot more nervous.
Announcer: After decades of secrecy, are prosecutors taking a new look at polygamy?
(Announcements)
LANGUAGE: English
LOAD-DATE: May 2, 1999