why did eric and dylan do it

why did they do it for popularity or fame

I moved this to "Thoughts on the shooting".

I think it was complex... they talked about how they wanted movies made about them, and they kind of got their wish.. I am sure "I'm Not Ashamed" wasn't what they were thinking about... but I ask, why does someone want to be famous? Did they feel unheard? Also they were teenagers, their thought process was not logical.

I cannot imagine the thought process for something like this. It goes well beyond dumb teenager stuff.. so I don't know why.

They definitely wanted to be remembered and make a mark in history!

Eric wrote as if he was speaking to an audience. On the basement tapes, they talked about creating some kind of chain reaction post bombing/shooting.

So they were very aware of what might happen after their "little judgement day". Including apologizing to friends and parents.

I think what shocks me the most about Columbine is that for all their excitement for the aftershow, they still decided to die that day to never even see it.

The contradictions and pure head fuck of things not really making sense make this case extremely interesting. Nobody wants a puzzle that can't be solved. I am starting to think that this is one of them?

P.S.....Great post, Screamingophelia

The thing everyone knows about this- the causation is way too complex to sum it to one or two causes.

It's safe to assume there was no singular reason for this.

I'm not going to bounce back and forth between "Dylan influenced Eric" "Eric influenced Dylan" he said she said who started the idea of 99' thing, just overall things that can apply to both unless specified

Here are some of the ideas I think lead to it, obviously can't fit everything in one post, but I'll try to keep it concise and clear, which may make some things come off as "stereotypical" or surface level facts/ideas about the case.
These can all connect to each other in some way, wish I was organized enough to make a flow chart explaining how they're linked. Hopefully this doesn't seem like complete rambling and has some sort of structure to it.

The Personas
-Their personas encouraged this "image of tough behavior", the whole Vodka and Reb shtick as characters. As previously mentioned by someone else in
the thread, Eric's journal is very much so aware of someone reading it with this pronounced "Reb" character.

Remembrance/Immortalized
- They definitely wanted to be remembered, with Eric amping up the to be future tragedy with excitement and fantasies of brutality. They've spoken about wanting to hit certain numbers, wanting to be noticed for something.

- The Two
they both influenced each other, I think if they didn't interact with each other, this never would've happened. Kind of goes back to the persona thing with how they would hype each other's character up. Because the other was seemingly in on it, or assumed to be completely in on it, the other didn't want to back out, they feel they're attached to the plan and can't pull out now to leave the other person, ex: Dylan brings up idea of the massacre, Eric is in on it, Dylan gets scared, wants to pull out, feels responsible for it and forced to go with it (not saying these were the events that happened, just a scenario to explain)

Mental Troubles
- mental illness and doubts is a given (they were both depressed, Eric probably thought it would ruin his image in journals talking too much about it though) but I would like to emphasize the time/stage of development they were going through when this all happened, high school. Anyone that has been in high school knows the crushing expectations that come from everybody around them, the standards they feel they have to uphold, everything. This is probably more of the case with Dylan compared to Eric.  (latter of this follows onto next part)
                           
Industrialization
-Dylan was in a sort of "gifted" program as a child- this may be my own bias bleeding a bit- but when you're sorted out as an "intelligent" kid based solely on that, no other aspect of your humanity, it's dehumanizing, and the expectations of suddenly being labelled "gifted" linger with you your entire life, even when you're at an obvious decline. You have the urge to rebel against that title to show it means nothing. This could be linked with the industrialization of society, hammering schooling and life itself into just having a title, no autonomy the boys both obviously wanted. Dylan writes about feeling out of place from the world, using what I believe to be metaphorical descriptions of "dimensions", a sense of not belonging to this world (industrialization vs self). They may have not realized this consciously in proper words as it wasn't really ever written in the journals iirc, but I do think it was a subconscious, back-of-the-head reason or push into the spiral.

- Alienation
(on Dylan) From not feeling wanted in this industrialized world, I don't think he really had any intention on living whatsoever no matter what happened unless he found a girl (he could've possibly thought of the massacre as a push to kill himself finally, would rather be dead than in jail, or the guilt of killing people would justify his death to him). (on Eric) Eric is a little tougher to sort out because his entire thing was this whole 'bad guy' power persona. Could be linked back to wanting to have control over something for once, he had moved around often nearly his entire life, expressing resentment of being the new kid. Being able to decide if someone lives or dies is the ultimate form of control. His journals follow the themes of control. (on both) They both expressed feelings of having reached "enlightenment" compared to other people, knowing more than others in a metaphysical sense, this sense of having knowledge others don't have or won't under stand can push into alienation, into the "alternate dimension" of not feeling like you're meant to be here. Also applicable vice versa; alienation forces them into thought, they point the reason of their alienation to be because of something, think it's because they're superior in a way.

Summary
It was an accumulation of rage at everyone around them, society, expectations, the future they would've been stuck to have had they lived, they didn't want to live in a world like that. I think the event was a big "fuck you, we did something, made our mark in our own way, and now you can't do anything about it" to the world. It was a final catharsis against society, everyone, where nobody could stop them or hold them back anymore as they were "gods" or "arbiters" of people's existence (the victims)

remember, these are just some thoughts that I personally think can be attributed to the "why?"
-------------------------------------------


ignore this if you don't want to read an attempt at a sort of flow-chart-explanation thing trying to connect some of these into the vicious cycle it all was

Mental Troubles -> Alienation -> Personas : The feelings of inadequacy could've built these fictitious like characters to make them feel as if they were something.

Mental Troubles -> Alienation + Industrialization -> Remembrance : Feeling as if they're nothing in this cut, set in stone structured world leads to rebellion against it. Goal of the modern world is to be remembered, they completed that goal, but not in the way society intends it to happen.

Industrialization -> Mental Troubles/Alienation: Feelings of inadequacy, I don't want to repeat myself too much, but it's the feeling of being pointless in this system.

The Two <-> Personas: they fed into each other, almost like trying to keep up with each other on how extreme they can get, acting like it was a movie.

This whole thing was totally crazy. It's one thing to be talking shit and showing off infront of each other, like they did on the tapes they made. 2 teenage boys saying they were gonna to do this n that, full of bravado. Neither one of them had killed anyone before in cold blood. Infact, apart from watching movies, which are completely different to real life, I don't think either of them got close to hurting anything as far as we know? Shooting at trees & targets in the woods isn't in the same league, never mind the same sport as to point blank range blasting young girls and boys faces and heads off.

It seems they were genuinely thirsty to really be utter cruel, evil bastards some day and couldn't wait to do it. Doing what they did would shock 99.99% of the population to the core. The fact that they went from Zero to a Billion Miles Per hour at the turn of a hand on their watch is just so strange.

Very scary because even alot of sick murderous humans get a sense of, oh shit, this is too much, what am I thinking/doing?

The odds of 2 17/18 year old kids to be able to carry on through with what they did is astronomical IMO. Didn't seem to phase either of them, in fact, they seemed to get more into it as they went along from outside and sweeping through the library.

Back to the bravado thing, there obviously wasn't any. They weren't scared of getting shot by the police, getting blown up by their own bombs and their own bullet going through their heads to DIE at 17/18 years old. They weren't high out of their minds on drugs or alcohol so there was no false confidence or thoughts there.

Chilling, bizarre, almost impossible...yet happened clear as day.

Not to mention all the previous actions and events shortly beforehand. Dylan travelling to College, going to Prom. Eric behaving like an absolute gentleman on his date on Prom Night.

The phrase "WTF" doesn't even come close to doing this justice.

Bullying, mental illness and feelings of general alienation IMO.

To me they seemed to have a lot of trouble with jocks. I wonder why they didn't go to the gym and strike a heap of them down. But then again, they hated that school and everything it stood for so they wanted to just destroy it. They got to the point where they just didn't care who they took with them.

Alexz wrote:

why did they do it for popularity or fame

Wow, I wrote whole threads on this back in the day.

For the record: It is not possible to properly diagnose a dead person. A real diagnosis must include observation of the patient. However, given the amount of personal writings left behind and the testimony of their friends and colleagues, I feel we can make a decent educated guess about their mental conditions.

If I have to sum it up without going into too much detail:

1. For Dylan it was primarily an extended suicide, with the shooting being a fantasy he had for a long time. I'm sure he was suffering from clinical depression, I also feel like it is very likely that he was also suffering from Schizotypal personality disorder.
   
   
2. For Eric it was vice-versa, the suicide was just a part of an "extended homicide" so to speak. Eric's reasons are more murky, but anger at the world at large and dissatisfaction with mundane everyday life seem to be his main underlying motive. On top of that you had Eric's lack of empathy and remorse, his grandiosity, impulsiveness and unwillingness to accept responsibility and the tendency to blame others. Those are all "red flags" for Hare-style psychopathy.
   To be clear: Psychopathy is a spectrum, not a simple "yes/no" disorder. I'm not sure if Eric had enough psychopathic traits to formally qualify for a psychopathy diagnosis, but it is clear that he had more psychopathic traits than the general population.
   
   My own best guess is that Eric had just enough psychopathic traits to go on with the columbine attack, but not enough to fall into the typical parasitic lifestyle and a career of many short-duration scams and criminal acts and "get rich quick schemes" that is characteristic of most psychopaths.
   In short: Eric was not psychopathic enough to be immune to suicide, but psychopathic enough to do a spree killing.
   

So the primary causes were their mental states. There were of course external influences that impacted the way they wanted to conduct the shooting, or the place they had chosen. But the external influences shaped the "how?" of the shooting, but had little to do with the "why?" of it all.

My "Diagnosing Eric Harris" thread is lost with the old forums, but the "Diagnosing Dylan Klebold" post was quoted here by some soul before the old forums got deleted. So if you are interested to read more about my theory of "Klebold had Schizotypal PD, below is the original quote:

Sabratha wrote:

Like I said, I'm a psychology student, but I'm not a professional specializing in abnormal psychology. However I'm very familiar with Millon's works, particularly his theories concerning schizoids.

In this case I'm pretty sure that a Schizotypal diagnosis is much more fitting and explains much more about Dylan than an avoidant diagnosis.

To explain in depth what I mean, let me quote the DSM-IV TR criteria of an Avoidant PD (4 or more are enough to diagnose avoidant PD):
Quote:
1) Avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact, because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection.
2) Is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked
3) Shows restraint initiating intimate relationships because of the fear of being ashamed, ridiculed, or rejected due to severe low self-worth.
4) Is preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations
5) Is inhibited in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy
6) Views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others
7) Is unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing


Now the Schizotypal criteria (the presence of 5 or more are enough to diagnose Schizotypal PD):
Quote:
1)Ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference)
2) Odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations)
3) Unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions
4) Odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped)
5) Suspiciousness or paranoid ideation
6) Inappropriate or constricted affect
7) Behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar
Cool Lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
9) Social anxiety that tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self




Now, one should realize that Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD, Avoidant PD and some social phobias have a set of common traits and can be easily mistaken for one another. Its the presence of some "small" traits that often escape the untrained eye, that make the "bog" difference.

For example some Schizoids are very similar to some Avoidants. The difference is that avoidants are afraid of social contact, while schizoids simply do not want to engage in it, but do not experience fear.

Back to Dylan:
A simple avoidant diagnosis would be possible, but the schizotypal diagnosis fits better and explains some very unusual traits of Dylan that are left unanswered in case of an avoidant diagnosis. Thus IMHO a schizotypal diagnosis should take precedence.

Dylan clearly had strong ideas of reference ("The lost highway" and "NBK" - Eric had that too, but to a far lesser degree and his beliefs were more rooted in reality so to speak).

"Magical thinking and odd beliefs" - Dylan seems a textbook case, really. Its actually quite rare to see such obvious and clear examples of this in someone's writings as you can see in Dylan's journal. His ideas of "love" (he has a very unusual use of this word), his ideas of "Halycon", his ideas of "fakeness and artificiality", his ideas of "infinity", his concept of "zombies"... all seem to be perfect, even textbook examples.

Dylan did have "unusual perceptual experiences including bodily illusions". He himself wrote: "when did Dylan Benet Klebold got covered up by this entity containing Dylan's body" or "It's interesting, when i'm in my human form, knowing i'm going to die. Everything has a touch of triviality to it."
Its rare to get such glimpses of one's perceptions just through one's writings, but Dylan provided us such glimpses.

"Odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped)" - Hard to say without more material (interview, a longer video of him talking about something in depth), but we are all familiar with his vague and metaphorical way of writing. If his way of writing was a good example of his way of thinking then I think we all agree that he fits this criterion perfectly. Plus his talk about halycon or self-awareness is definitely not something common to average 1990s teenagers.

"Suspiciousness or paranoid ideation" - This in my opinion the criterion which makes me convinced that if Dylan had anyhthing, then it was this criterion tha makes me sure that he had Schizotypal, not avoidant PD.
Avoidants are "afraid" of other people, but they seek their love and acceptance. They are almost never "paranoid" in the clinical sense.
Dylan WAS paranoid. He wrote: "everyone is conspiring against me" and "All people i ever might have loved have abandoned me, my parents piss me off & hate me". He wasn't afraid of people, he was disgusted and felt superior to them.

"Inappropriate or constricted affect" - Unlike what it seems, this sin't as much about ideas of affection (like dylan's ideas of love) but rather actions and behavior.
Without knowing or observing Dylan, its not really possible to determine this.

"Behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar" - I don't think I need to comment on this. Everyone who knew hoe Dylan dressed and behaved knows what I mean.

"Lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives" - Nope, doesn't apply to Dylan.

"Social anxiety that tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self" - Debatable, because Dylan had both paranoid fears AND negative judgements about self and we cannot be sure what was the cause. So without an interview or observation of a live specimen of Dylan Klebold, we cannot really say if it fits or not.

So all in all we get 6 citerions he fits (often perfectly), 2 criterions he may or may not fit (observation would be required to clear our doubts) and one that he doesn't fit. Overall this is more than enough to make a Schizotypal hypotesis.

HOWEVER let me once again state: "any diagnosis made without actual contact with the individual is only speculative". Since Dylan is dead NOBODY can make a definite diagnosis.

I just provided arguments in favor of the Schizotypal hypotesis and the more I learn about Dylan, the more I'm sure that its a very plausible possiblity.

I am starting to think that it was Eric that wished for suicide/death as much if not more than Dylan.

Evidence shows he was the first to do it. By absolute pure brutal force too! Pulling the trigger on a sawn off shotgun while pointing up into the roof of your mouth is as about as far as it gets to utter cunt shit fuckery! Especially after witnessing the horribe damage it had done to the victims shot 30 minutes earlier!

Was it Erics Nixon Tape that said something like, "In 24.5 hours, our little judgement will begin, and in 24.4 hours I will be dead and in pure happiness"

That MF couldn't wait to die!

Now i am thinking it may be Dylan that was least productive on that thought?

Adzybear wrote:

Was it Erics Nixon Tape that said something like, "In 24.5 hours, our little judgement will begin, and in 24.4 hours I will be dead and in pure happiness"

The "little judgement day" is a quote attributed to Dylan on the last tape, which is part of their "Goodbye" statements to the parents:

D.Klebold wrote:

Hey mom. Gotta go. It’s about a half an hour before our little judgment day. I just wanted to apologize to you guys for any crap this might instigate as far as [inaudible] or something. Just know I’m going to a better place. I didn’t like life too much and I know I’ll be happy wherever the fuck I go. So I’m gone. Good-bye.

Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Eric doesn't really say anything like that in his last recording, he just engages in what Reed Coleman aptly called "bizarre housekeeping" and says that Nate and Chris Morris can take his stuff after he dies and he says Susan can keep the CD he borrowed to her.

Remember that these pieces of info are not direct transcripts of the basement tapes, but instead just based on witness statements of people who seen the tapes. So the actual wording might have been a little different.

Sabratha wrote:

Adzybear wrote:

Was it Erics Nixon Tape that said something like, "In 24.5 hours, our little judgement will begin, and in 24.4 hours I will be dead and in pure happiness"

The "little judgement day" is a quote attributed to Dylan on the last tape, which is part of their "Goodbye" statements to the parents:

D.Klebold wrote:

Hey mom. Gotta go. It’s about a half an hour before our little judgment day. I just wanted to apologize to you guys for any crap this might instigate as far as [inaudible] or something. Just know I’m going to a better place. I didn’t like life too much and I know I’ll be happy wherever the fuck I go. So I’m gone. Good-bye.

Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Eric doesn't really say anything like that in his last recording, he just engages in what Reed Coleman aptly called "bizarre housekeeping" and says that Nate and Chris Morris can take his stuff after he dies and he says Susan can keep the CD he borrowed to her.

Remember that these pieces of info are not direct transcripts of the basement tapes, but instead just based on witness statements of people who seen the tapes. So the actual wording might have been a little different.

I wasn't talking about The Basement Tapes. I was talking about the voice recorder tape left (The Nixon Tape) on the kitchen table.

Adzybear wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

Adzybear wrote:

Was it Erics Nixon Tape that said something like, "In 24.5 hours, our little judgement will begin, and in 24.4 hours I will be dead and in pure happiness"

The "little judgement day" is a quote attributed to Dylan on the last tape, which is part of their "Goodbye" statements to the parents:

D.Klebold wrote:

Hey mom. Gotta go. It’s about a half an hour before our little judgment day. I just wanted to apologize to you guys for any crap this might instigate as far as [inaudible] or something. Just know I’m going to a better place. I didn’t like life too much and I know I’ll be happy wherever the fuck I go. So I’m gone. Good-bye.

Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Eric doesn't really say anything like that in his last recording, he just engages in what Reed Coleman aptly called "bizarre housekeeping" and says that Nate and Chris Morris can take his stuff after he dies and he says Susan can keep the CD he borrowed to her.

Remember that these pieces of info are not direct transcripts of the basement tapes, but instead just based on witness statements of people who seen the tapes. So the actual wording might have been a little different.

I wasn't talking about The Basement Tapes. I was talking about the voice recorder tape left (The Nixon Tape) on the kitchen table.

I don't think we ever had any good transcript of that. The only "little judgement day" quote that I'm aware of is attributed to Dylan. And again, its second-hand information. Its possible that it was mis-attributed, or that Eric said something similar.


That's one of the reasons why most of their video and audio recordings don't make very good evidence. We d not have the exact words, just second-hand statements.

Overall, they did it because they were bitter and wanted revenge. The wanted revenge for the jocks bullying them for so many years. I wouldn't go with the ''mental illness'' argument because they knew what they did was wrong. Being bullied isn't a reason to slaughter innocents. They simply could've brushed it off and moved on with their lives after graduation. They wouldn't have had to see the jocks ever again after graduation. But that's not what they did. They chose to pick up guns and shoot up innocents. That's literally the only reason why Eric and Dylan did it, bitterness.

Well I am just going from the information that we have and been given. I can't speculate or know exactly what or wasn't on that tape from the voice recorder left on the table.

Have a look into The Nixon Tape if you missed it. Eric left parting words 24 hours before the massacre. He didn't use the term Judgement Day like Dylan did on the goodbye BT clip. He basically gave a count down kinda thing...In 24 hours etc.

It's official noted evidence

Adzybear wrote:

Well I am just going from the information that we have and been given. I can't speculate or know exactly what or wasn't on that tape from the voice recorder left on the table.

Have a look into The Nixon Tape if you missed it. Eric left parting words 24 hours before the massacre. He didn't use the term Judgement Day like Dylan did on the goodbye BT clip. He basically gave a count down kinda thing...In 24 hours etc.

It's official noted evidence

Yeah I know, the 24hrs part is Eric. I just focused on the "judgement day" part for some reason that that was Dylan. Anyway, I think we both know what the other meant now and I don't think there's an actual disagreement.

Sabratha wrote:

Adzybear wrote:

Well I am just going from the information that we have and been given. I can't speculate or know exactly what or wasn't on that tape from the voice recorder left on the table.

Have a look into The Nixon Tape if you missed it. Eric left parting words 24 hours before the massacre. He didn't use the term Judgement Day like Dylan did on the goodbye BT clip. He basically gave a count down kinda thing...In 24 hours etc.

It's official noted evidence

Yeah I know, the 24hrs part is Eric. I just focused on the "judgement day" part for some reason that that was Dylan. Anyway, I think we both know what the other meant now and I don't think there's an actual disagreement.

Eric used the term, "Judgement Will Begin" on the tape. Those 2 boys obviously must have used that term with each other quite a bit I reckon.

Really thinking about this now, what a pair of childish dicks they were. Pathetic actually.

After years of dwelling and trying to figure out bits and bobs about this whole thing, my conclusion has come to this....

2 Evil, Bad Bastards that had a serious hunger for murder. Like a child cutting a kittens head off with a blunt knife, showing not only no remorse but taking great pleasure in the act while doing so.

I think I got washed up in certain thoughts after reading journals and home videos. I actually think I might have been in denial?

Just the fact of Dylan blowing the jaw off an innocent dudes face outside (Lance?), to not be phased by that, infact went even more bonkers and cruel!?

What a pair of cunts! The mystery is over for me. The odds of getting 2 utter shitheads together like that is Lottery kind! Someone always wins it though.

Sorry for the rant. It's so warm in the UK right now. No Air Conditioning over here as it's usually so cold we have icicles hanging from our balls.....

Adzybear wrote:

Like a child cutting a kittens head off with a blunt knife, showing not only no remorse but taking great pleasure in the act while doing so.

That is an apt comparison, yes. I'm sure that they got a kick out of the killings.

Thing is... I do not think that getting their kicks was their motivation behind it all. Rather just a side-product.

Adzybear wrote:

What a pair of cunts! The mystery is over for me. The odds of getting 2 utter shitheads together like that is Lottery kind! Someone always wins it though.

Sorry for the rant. It's so warm in the UK right now. No Air Conditioning over here as it's usually so cold we have icicles hanging from our balls.....

An outburst from time to time is a natural thing.

Adzybear wrote:

The odds of getting 2 utter shitheads together like that is Lottery kind!

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History says otherwise.

QuestionMark wrote:

Adzybear wrote:

The odds of getting 2 utter shitheads together like that is Lottery kind!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

History says otherwise.

Good post mate,

Sure, I get what you're saying. I think I was more meaning getting 2 High School 17/18 years olds to plan and actually go through with the crime. No doubt there have been wars, murders etc. that involved more than one mastermind.

There have also been shootings carried out by 2 shooters at schools too but, these seem to be less so than the lone shooter.

The trust between Eric & Dylan must have been extremely tight.

Im probably in the minority that thinks they did it mainly for purely philosophical reasons, but with a little mix of maybe some minor/secondary motivations like infamy and revenge

After more thought, & time gone on, I don't think they truly knew the reason why they did what they did. They obviously wanted to die. My current opinion is that it was a suicide ticket, no going back, lets have some ultimate fun before closing the curtains.

Many suicide cases show that people spend one last day out in a place that they love before jumping off the bridge. For some reason, their idea of fun was to bomb/shoot people like in a movie or video game.

I wonder if they thought it was worth it, 1 second before pulling the trigger.

Upon seeing that their car bombs had also failed, that must have been the final kick in the bollocks IMO

Total Cluster Fuck. Their plan couldn't have gone any more wrong if they had tried!