Did Eric hate himself?

I believe he did. I believe that, beneath all the bluster, he was one miserable self-loathing fuck.

He externalized his hatred, yes, but the bottom line is that a person who holds himself in high regard does not put a gun in his mouth and blow his fucking brains out. That is the act of someone who wants to destroy as much of himself as possible - an expression of extreme self-hatred.

I can forgive Dave Cullen all of his lies except one: He says that Eric did not suffer, but that Dylan did. He is wrong, and he has misled so many of his readers, and I cannot let him off the hook for doing that.

Cullen says that Eric had no soul, that he lacked emotional depth, that there was nothing to him except sickness. I do not believe him.

One might say, "Even if you're right, who cares? Eric Harris murdered kids. He doesn't deserve to be remembered as anything other than a monster."

Yes, but why single out Eric? Cullen makes excuses for Dylan. Dylan was a poor little lamb who lost his way; Eric was the big bad wolf.

Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Somewhere along the way, I made an emotional investment in these two kids. I shouldn't have, but I did. I mourn not for the boys who killed their classmates, but for the men they might have grown up to become. I honestly believe that both of them could have been saved, could have found love, could have found happiness. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't waste a single moment of my life trying to defend any aspect of either one of them.

(Once they started killing people, they relinquished any right to sympathy. As one author put it, Eric's only decent act on 4/20 was to end his own life.)

Maybe I feel the way I do because so many people have written me off - written me off as a fat fuck, or a weird fuck, or a sick fuck. People tell me that my feelings do not matter. Even my own mother has told me, essentially, that my pain is trivial and not truly "genuine" because it is caused by mental illness. In other words - "You're defective, and if you feel bad about yourself, it's because you're not taking the right medication." (She hasn't said this in so many words, but she has said that if I were "normal," my feelings would be more "legitimate," whatever that means.)

In some roundabout (and twisted) way, when I fight for the idea that Eric had a soul, I'm fighting for the idea that I have a soul. If I can spread the belief that Eric was a human being, and that his actions were at least partly rooted in his inability to feel loved, respected, and admired - a universal desire - then I can help to establish the legitimacy of my own thoughts and feelings of inadequacy.

I hate Cullen because he dehumanizes Eric. I take it personally, because I identify with Eric and I feel that someone who dehumanizes him is, to an extent, dehumanizing me.

I wish I could say, "Fuck it - I don't care." But I do care, and that's why I'm still out here struggling to counter the falsehoods. And I'm not going to stop anytime soon.

I disagree with how you interpret Eric, though I do not claim that Eric "did have less of a soul than other people" (OK, techniclaly I believe nobody ever had a soul, but you get my drift, I don't want to make this a religious rant).



Eric hated the world and society he lived in. He realized he won't change it "from the inside". That he can either go NBK or "go down the stream of life" with mindless robots doing daily grind all their lives.

That's how he seen his choice: "routine shit" vs "NBK". And NBK had to end with his death, otherwise he'd be back at square one - doing "routine shit" all his life, just this time behind bars.

Eric knew taht prison is just another way of participating in society. Eric didn't want to participate in society at all.


That's my view, I already tried to elaborate on it in the "Eric's core belief" thread. I'm entirely convinced taht this is what Eric, dep down, was all about.

I trust that even if you disagree with me on this, you will not argue that I "dehumanize" Eric.

I do think you are overstressing the issues Eric had with his looks and his relations with his peers, while you are severely understressing the deep disdain Eric had for society and "routine shit" people do all their everyday lives.

Sabratha wrote:

I disagree with how you interpret Eric, though I do not claim that Eric "did have less of a soul than other people" (OK, techniclaly I believe nobody ever had a soul, but you get my drift, I don't want to make this a religious rant).



Eric hated the world and society he lived in. He realized he won't change it "from the inside". That he can either go NBK or "go down the stream of life" with mindless robots doing daily grind all their lives.

That's how he seen his choice: "routine shit" vs "NBK". And NBK had to end with his death, otherwise he'd be back at square one - doing "routine shit" all his life, just this time behind bars.

Eric knew taht prison is just another way of participating in society. Eric didn't want to participate in society at all.


That's my view, I already tried to elaborate on it in the "Eric's core belief" thread. I'm entirely convinced taht this is what Eric, dep down, was all about.

I trust that even if you disagree with me on this, you will not argue that I "dehumanize" Eric.

I do think you are overstressing the issues Eric had with his looks and his relations with his peers, while you are severely understressing the deep disdain Eric had for society and "routine shit" people do all their everyday lives.

Maybe. I've known a number of folks who think the same way about society as a whole - "People are drones and the everyday shit they do isn't worth doing" - and none of them have ever murdered anyone. I tend to think that way myself.

When you're smart and imaginative and don't have a vested interest in defending the silly rules that society wants you to follow, you start to develop a real contempt for the people who blindly go along with what they're "supposed" to be doing. You start to see them as, say, cattle running through the pen - animals who neither know nor care that they're mindlessly stumbling through life. That doesn't make you a potential murderer.

I, for one, get bored and depressed thinking that I'm stuck having to do things according to some arbitrary standard of correctness. I'd rather do things my own way, if only to show that I'm not beholden to anyone or anything.

Having to submit to authority is an act of self-debasement. And there are so many ways in which we have to submit. Speaking standard English is one of those ways - why should I call a tree a tree, when I could make up my own word (say, bugafuga) and assert my independence from those who say that only certain words are "real" and "correct"? What stake do I have in upholding someone else's idea of what is "proper"?

Hating the world does not necessarily lead to homicidal impulses. It can just as easily lead to subversive tendencies - you do little things to demonstrate your contempt for and independence from the system, and you derive satisfaction from the idea that you don't feel any obligations to anything or anyone.

Sabratha wrote:

I do think you are overstressing the issues Eric had with his looks and his relations with his peers, while you are severely understressing the deep disdain Eric had for society and "routine shit" people do all their everyday lives.

I see it the other way around. IMO it's all but guaranteed that the disdain Eric had for society stemmed from the fact he wasn't getting any respect in the first place.

Had society worked well for him (popular, many friends, good reputation, everyone liking him, plenty of dates, bright future) things would've been completely different.

lio45 wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

I do think you are overstressing the issues Eric had with his looks and his relations with his peers, while you are severely understressing the deep disdain Eric had for society and "routine shit" people do all their everyday lives.

I see it the other way around. IMO it's all but guaranteed that the disdain Eric had for society stemmed from the fact he wasn't getting any respect in the first place.

Had society worked well for him (popular, many friends, good reputation, everyone liking him, plenty of dates, bright future) things would've been completely different.

I think it's that way for most people.

See, Cullen goes out of his way to say that Eric *did* have it this way - "Oh, he was a ladies' man; he had friends; he was cool and confident; blah blah blah." But people who knew him tell a different story.

And Eric himself told us that his anger stemmed from his self-hatred:

Quote :

Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back: ultimate fucking revenge here. you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads off. Then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from. The fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me .. constantly..therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED

I do wonder what kind of boyfriend he would have been. Jealous and possessive, I think. And some women like to play games - flirting with another guy to see how the guy she's with will react - so he would have had to watch out.

LPorter101 wrote:

lio45 wrote:

I see it the other way around. IMO it's all but guaranteed that the disdain Eric had for society stemmed from the fact he wasn't getting any respect in the first place.

Had society worked well for him (popular, many friends, good reputation, everyone liking him, plenty of dates, bright future) things would've been completely different.

I think it's that way for most people.

It is, my point however stands: Eric was not "most people". He was a rare and unique individual and 4/20 was a rare event. people who just have a life that's not as nice as they want it to be don;t gon on spree killings, otherwise we'd have ~10 milion spree killings in Poland and some ~50 milion spree killings in the US alone.

Eric had a lot of things in him that in the end produced NBK. I still strongly believe that it was his disdain for "routine shit" that unwillingness to participate in society as "just another brick in the wall" so to speak.... tahtw as teh cornerstone of all his other beliefs.

This topic actually took me by surprise. I always thought it was obvious to everyone that Eric hated himself.

Yes he did hate himself. He was suicidal, and homicidal.

Honestly...he really sounds like he's trying to be cool, be all macho tough guy for the audience, but lets his real whining self come out a few times in his journal. Basement Tapes show it more.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

This topic actually took me by surprise. I always thought it was obvious to everyone that Eric hated himself.

I agree. The total destruction of his head from a shotgun blast was always cited as a way for Eric to obliterate himself from the world is evidence of this self-hatred. "Natural Selection" would not allow someone of his ilk to survive.

Great thread ,LPorter. I believe that yes Eric hated himself and felt he got the short end of the stick.
He is routinely portrayed as a cold, evil, unfeeling , non human.
But I see a boy who while he did something horrific was deeply sensitive, and easily hurt. It seems like he did not have the emotional resources to bounce back after hurts like a lot of people can and do. I don't think he saw any of the good things about himself that people sympathetic to him have come to see.

Saying taht Eric first hated himself and then went on to hate everything else is reading Eric backwards. Eric first developped external oriented hate, then once he realzied he can't do much about the world around him, he turned some of that hate at himself for being too weak to make much of an impact.

If we assume that Eric hated himself and that's why he went NBK, then we are back at square one with "easy answers".

Then the question ceases to be: "Why Eric killed people?" but becomes: "Why do milions of teenagers around the world who hate themselves and have self-image issues NOT kill people?". "Easy answers" lead to these sort of conlusions and issues.

This is a dead end way of reasoning. To understand a pretty rare case such as columbine, you cannot point to traits and causes that are very common in the whole population.

Sabratha wrote:

Saying taht Eric first hated himself and then went on to hate everything else is reading Eric backwards. Eric first developped external oriented hate, then once he realzied he can't do much about the world around him, he turned some of that hate at himself for being too weak to make much of an impact.

If we assume that Eric hated himself and that's why he went NBK, then we are back at square one with "easy answers".

Then the question ceases to be: "Why Eric killed people?" but becomes: "Why do milions of teenagers around the world who hate themselves and have self-image issues NOT kill people?". "Easy answers" lead to these sort of conlusions and issues.

This is a dead end way of reasoning. To understand a pretty rare case such as columbine, you cannot point to traits and causes that are very common in the whole population.

How did he come to hate the world?

LPorter101 wrote:

How did he come to hate the world?

Through daily interactions and personal experiences. Eric's experiences in his life and in school were really pretty unremarkable as far as CHS goes, its his reaction and beliefs we need to look at.

He wasn't a star athlete, he wasn't the brightest of the bright and the most popular kid. But he wasn't a loner who had no friends, he was a reasonably intelligent guy. He was pushed around by jocks, as were many other kids in CHS, but he wasn't extensively bullied as that jewish kid (or even as bad as Brooks).
He wasn't comfortable with how he looks - again like most teenagers. If being insecure about your looks causes spree killings, then there should be many more teenage female spree killers than men

If we look at Eric, we will get nowhere if we just concentrate on the average things he had in common with a huge percentage of teenagers. We need to look at what made him different, as in no doubt different he was.

Eric did not like the injustice of CHS, like most students. He hated the fact that jocks were given special treatement, again most students hated that.


What made Eric different is that he hated and was pissed off by mundane everyday activity. This is a huge part of who he was, he keeps mentioning that both in his website and his journals.

Wehn Eric speaks directly about his shcool does he mention bullying, jocks, popularity or his self-image? Nope.

What does he write when he directly references school? This:

Eric Harris wrote:

ever wonder why we go to school? besides getting a so called education. its not to obvious to most of you stupid fucks but for these who think a little more and deeper you should realize it. its societies way of turning all the young people into good little robots and factory workers thats why we sit in desks in rows and go by bell schedules, to get prepared for the real world cause "thats what its like". well god damit no it isnt!

This and all such Eric's quotes are what its all about. This is rare. This is not what average teenagers are very concerned about. Most teenagers may not like school because of authority or because its taking their time.

Most people when they read Eric find this alien and incomprehensible (how can anyone care so deeply and hate with such passion such mundane stuff? There must be a 2nd layer to this!"), so they try to reed something else into this.That's pointless, these statements have to be taken literally at face value.

How many kids look at school as an extension of society's functioning as a whole, as "routine shit", going by schedules like good little robots?
Few in fact.

How many of those few care so obsessively about this that they decide to commit murder and suicide in order not to participate further in society? Very, very few. Eric. Olga. A few others.

What sets Eric yet again apart even in this small percentage of people who don't want to be bricks in the wall (and hate the wall itself?)

Eric's psychopathic traits.

His impulsivity, lack of remorse, grandiose image of himself. His ability to consider himself a victim, even if he's the one pulling the trigger.

That's Eric.

Sabratha wrote:

I disagree with how you interpret Eric, though I do not claim that Eric "did have less of a soul than other people" (OK, techniclaly I believe nobody ever had a soul, but you get my drift, I don't want to make this a religious rant).



Eric hated the world and society he lived in. He realized he won't change it "from the inside". That he can either go NBK or "go down the stream of life" with mindless robots doing daily grind all their lives.

That's how he seen his choice: "routine shit" vs "NBK". And NBK had to end with his death, otherwise he'd be back at square one - doing "routine shit" all his life, just this time behind bars.

Eric knew taht prison is just another way of participating in society. Eric didn't want to participate in society at all.


That's my view, I already tried to elaborate on it in the "Eric's core belief" thread. I'm entirely convinced taht this is what Eric, dep down, was all about.

I trust that even if you disagree with me on this, you will not argue that I "dehumanize" Eric.

I do think you are overstressing the issues Eric had with his looks and his relations with his peers, while you are severely understressing the deep disdain Eric had for society and "routine shit" people do all their everyday lives.

Youre right. Eric's actions, writings, and feelings came from a very entwined combination of hate for himself AND for the world. If you focus too much on his hate for the world, you miss the angry and confused kid he was inside. If you focus too much on his mental illness, you miss the true disdain he had for the life he would be expected to live out in quiet submission. As I've said before the two went hand in hand for him. The hardest part is telling whether he was just a mentally ill individual whos violent acts were caused because he went untreated. Or was he really some violent "terrorist revolutionary" who thought he could put a stop to modern life by giving his own valueless life?

Either way NBK was a way to make Eric feel better about himself. It didnt matter if he changed the world or just killed a few snobby jocks and girls who gave him shit. He knew he would die and he was certain NBK give his life some sort of meaning. In a way that's all Eric boils down too: A guy who wanted to make his life worth something.

Nirvana92 wrote:

The hardest part is telling whether he was just a mentally ill individual whos violent acts were caused because he went untreated. Or was he really some violent "terrorist revolutionary" who thought he could put a stop to modern life by giving his own valueless life?

One doesn't really exclude the other. "Mental ilness" is not the same as being delusional. Being afraid of heights is a phobia, a type of mental illness.

If you are afraid of heights, then you are techniclaly mentlaly ill. You are not delusional. Psychopaths are menatlly ill, not delusional. Hare-ist psychologist may go as far as to argue its not even so much as a disorder as it is a behavioral strategy or personality type.

Either way, the vast majority of psychological paradigms out that state that psychopathy is not something you can treat.

Nirvana92 wrote:

He knew he would die and he was certain NBK give his life some sort of meaning. In a way that's all Eric boils down too: A guy who wanted to make his life worth something.

This part I will strongly agree with. "Going down the stream of life" would have been worthless to him, NBK was an alternative that meant something to Eric. Sure, it was an opportunity to get "followers", "kill cops", "have fun" and "get revenge for the january incident". But it was more for Eric than just that. I'm sure he would say taht it made his life worth living and made it a "life well spent".