Klebold Comment

Can you accept this comment from Tom Klebold, quoted in Far from the Tree as a fair assessment of what happened with Dylan?

“Unless you were a part of the in crowd and had your athletic résumé, you had no status,” Tom said. “So Dylan had to be resentful. The only thing that would certainly have prevented Columbine would have been to eliminate the chip on his shoulder, and the chip sprang from that school. He and Eric didn’t shoot us, and they didn’t shoot up Kmart or a gas station; they shot up the school. The whole social pattern at Columbine was unfair, and Dylan couldn’t do anything about it. That would cause enough anger in a sensitive kid to make him retaliate.”

I find it very interesting and commendable that he in no way blames Eric or suggests that Dylan was a follower.

Yes, I do agree with this. It is actually very similar to what Randy Brown said.

Yeah I think it was one of the reasons why they picked CHS as a target. I do not think it was the reason why they went on a shooting spree in the first place.
Also doesn't explain why people who were more presecuted at school didn't lash out in any similar way. Robert Perry, Jonathan Green etc.

Its one thing to say CHS sucked and there was a lot wrong with the administration and social structure there. But the main reason was in teh ehads of the killers. You need to start and end with their beliefs and personalities. Shiting all the blame to external factors is just that - trying to misplace the blame.

They left a "clue" at the end of the last BT video. A bomb with a lit fuse and an arrow pointing to CHS with the word "clue" being visible. This was, barring gunfire and bombs, their final "word" to the world. I think that is quite significant.

I am one of those who tends to view bullying as a primary cause for NBK. But not just bullying, the mendacity of society that was reflected in CHS as a microcosm. The social system and culture of America is itself built on bullying.

lol wrote:

Yes, I do agree with this. It is actually very similar to what Randy Brown said.

Yes it is. Good point.

I think that, espcecially for Eric, their negative feelings were directed towards society as well as just the school. I think that school life was not the only cause of Columbine, but that, although they probably would still have led unhappy lives without problems within the school, they would probably not have been driven to committing a mass shooting.

I agree with Sabratha, the school was a primary factor, but the problem is always with the people (E&D). If it was entirely school life that drove them to mass murder, we would have a lot more dead people on our hands.

I think the school was/is a microcosm for our society as a whole. It was simply the "biggest" and most important target they could imagine hitting. If they had nukes we'd all be dead because it was society itself they saw reflected in the culture at CHS.

To some extent, they were correct in this idea.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

I think the school was/is a microcosm for our society as a whole. It was simply the "biggest" and most important target they could imagine hitting. If they had nukes we'd all be dead because it was society itself they saw reflected in the culture at CHS.

To some extent, they were correct in this idea.

I agree that the school was a good representative of society, but I think it had further significance to them. It was most of what they knew, and it was where many of their problems occured. I think they targeted the school because it so well embodied society, but also because it as a specific place was such a huge part of their lives and problems.

eli27 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

I think the school was/is a microcosm for our society as a whole. It was simply the "biggest" and most important target they could imagine hitting. If they had nukes we'd all be dead because it was society itself they saw reflected in the culture at CHS.

To some extent, they were correct in this idea.

I agree that the school was a good representative of society, but I think it had further significance to them. It was most of what they knew, and it was where many of their problems occured. I think they targeted the school because it so well embodied society, but also because it as a specific place was such a huge part of their lives and problems.

Agreed. They actually did more damage to the school than to people. They shot up lockers, TV's, trophy cases, and etc... Scores of rounds and dozens of pipe-bombs.... They even avoided shooting people in order to shoot at the school or school equipment.

And what Tom Klebold said in the next paragraph is most interesting, as well:

Quote :

When Tom went to pick up Dylan’s car from the police station a few weeks after the event, one of the officers said to him, “My son came home from that school one day and they’d set his hair on fire right in the hall—his whole scalp was burned. I wanted to take that school apart brick by brick, but he said it would only make it worse.”

There were some fucked-up things happening in that school. Yes, Eric and Dylan were all screwed up inside, but Columbine High School could be an awful place to be.

LPorter101 wrote:

Columbine High School could be an awful place to be.

Yeah never denied that.

eli27 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

I think the school was/is a microcosm for our society as a whole. It was simply the "biggest" and most important target they could imagine hitting. If they had nukes we'd all be dead because it was society itself they saw reflected in the culture at CHS.

To some extent, they were correct in this idea.

I agree that the school was a good representative of society, but I think it had further significance to them. It was most of what they knew, and it was where many of their problems occured. I think they targeted the school because it so well embodied society, but also because it as a specific place was such a huge part of their lives and problems.

Yeah plus entirely no-nonsense reasons: they know the place, they can get in and out without suspicion. they have a legit reason to be there. People are already familiar with them in trenchcoats, Eric already calculated when there's a lot of peope inside.

Suppose they thougth about making an attack at a high-rise office building. No way in hell would they get so much information and so much free access to it that they had to CHS. That practical reason is one we should not underestimate.

The vast majority of spree killers target areas they know very well from personal experience.

Sabratha wrote:

eli27 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

I think the school was/is a microcosm for our society as a whole. It was simply the "biggest" and most important target they could imagine hitting. If they had nukes we'd all be dead because it was society itself they saw reflected in the culture at CHS.

To some extent, they were correct in this idea.

I agree that the school was a good representative of society, but I think it had further significance to them. It was most of what they knew, and it was where many of their problems occured. I think they targeted the school because it so well embodied society, but also because it as a specific place was such a huge part of their lives and problems.

Yeah plus entirely no-nonsense reasons: they know the place, they can get in and out without suspicion. they have a legit reason to be there. People are already familiar with them in trenchcoats, Eric already calculated when there's a lot of peope inside.

Suppose they thougth about making an attack at a high-rise office building. No way in hell would they get so much information and so much free access to it that they had to CHS. That practical reason is one we should not underestimate.

The vast majority of spree killers target areas they know very well from personal experience.

Very true. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] This may well have been literal.

eli27 wrote:

Very true.  [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] This may well have been literal.

There's no image showing...

You all have it backwards.

Eric and Dylan were the worst bullies in the school during the 1998-1999 year. 28 people, including Chris Morris (8897) and Devon Adams (10616), say that Harris and Klebold bullied others. Eric and Dylan documented their bullying of others in their own diaries, including their use of homophobic slurs. Eric threw a projectile at another student's car, cracking the windshield. Parents complained about Eric and Dylan's behavior to school administrators and to the police. Dylan threatened to kill Adam Kyler and bullied him so severely that Kyler's parents went to the school.

lasttrain wrote:

You all have it backwards.

Eric and Dylan were the worst bullies in the school during the 1998-1999 year.  28 people, including Chris Morris (8897) and Devon Adams (10616), say that Harris and Klebold bullied others.  Eric and Dylan documented their bullying of others in their own diaries, including their use of homophobic slurs.  Eric threw a projectile at another student's car, cracking the windshield.  Parents complained about Eric and Dylan's behavior to school administrators and to the police.  Dylan threatened to kill Adam Kyler and bullied him so severely that Kyler's parents went to the school.

Oh, come on, lasttrain.

Now, Dylan was something of a bully. And Eric could be an asshole. But the antics of Hoffschneider's gang have been well-documented. Larkin's book has lots of garbage in it, but his interviews with Columbine students about the school's social atmosphere are solid.

Neither was an angel in school. Dylan himself wrote in his diary that he will "try not to pick on people anymore" iirc
Dylan was also caught vandalizing a locker, he was trying to etch something on the door. That's bullying.

They were known to have called other people fags and homos, in particular their former friend Nick Baumgart (who was in no way homosexual btw, he had a relationship with Rachel Scott later on and today iirc is married). They also attacked the houses of several kids, including Baumgart.

So yeah, they were bullies at times. Not always though, Dylan was mostly known to be a quiet guy to most people. Eric was said to have been a getleman with girls and a guy who would help freshmen with computer issues in his free time.

lasttrain wrote:

You all have it backwards.

Eric and Dylan were the worst bullies in the school during the 1998-1999 year.  28 people, including Chris Morris (8897) and Devon Adams (10616), say that Harris and Klebold bullied others.  Eric and Dylan documented their bullying of others in their own diaries, including their use of homophobic slurs.  Eric threw a projectile at another student's car, cracking the windshield.  Parents complained about Eric and Dylan's behavior to school administrators and to the police.  Dylan threatened to kill Adam Kyler and bullied him so severely that Kyler's parents went to the school.

You are technically correct that "Eric and Dylan were the worst bullies in the school" because they were, after-all, the only ones who resorted to murder.

The spirit of your statement and your implied argument: that bullying played no role or that it was not the decisive role in pushing the boys to become murderers is specious.

I'm with LPorter on this one -- and I'd even go a step further and say that bullying by jocks w/ the consent of the school establishment is what made Eric and Dylan turn from gentle nerds to bullies themselves. They were just trying to fit in.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

eli27 wrote:

Very true.  [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] This may well have been literal.

There's no image showing...

Damn sorry. I posted it somewhere else I think but it was supposed to be the yearbook photo of Eric in the cafeteria 'observing the activity'.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

You all have it backwards.

Eric and Dylan were the worst bullies in the school during the 1998-1999 year.  28 people, including Chris Morris (8897) and Devon Adams (10616), say that Harris and Klebold bullied others.  Eric and Dylan documented their bullying of others in their own diaries, including their use of homophobic slurs.  Eric threw a projectile at another student's car, cracking the windshield.  Parents complained about Eric and Dylan's behavior to school administrators and to the police.  Dylan threatened to kill Adam Kyler and bullied him so severely that Kyler's parents went to the school.

You are technically correct that "Eric and Dylan were the worst bullies in the school" because they were, after-all, the only ones who resorted to murder.

The spirit of your statement and your implied argument: that bullying played no role or that it was not the decisive role in pushing the boys to become murderers is specious.

I'm with LPorter on this one -- and I'd even go a step further and say that bullying by jocks w/ the consent of the school establishment is what made Eric and Dylan turn from gentle nerds to bullies themselves. They were just trying to fit in.

 

I agree.

Yes, after the shooting they could now be seen as the worst bullies. But not before I don't think. School was a large part of their life, and being bullied by jocks probably gave them (especially Eric) motive for the shooting and was a factor in their (again, especially Eric) negative view of society. But I (obviously) don't think they were little angels before the shooting either. And they definately had it in them to pick on people, e.g. 'Nice Glasses' comment (as well as the fact that they, you know, killed 13 people...).

btw - it's imho much easier to die like they did - th facin' "the world" - or just yur very own part of it, yo.

being a teen, makin' your way not only through middle school, junior high and concerning eric and dylan in 1999 - senior high - can be overwhelming - or even worse (-obviously, i know, but will not stop mentioning that -for quite obvious reasons (like bein' obsessed or / and w/ columbine and school shootings generally) - as well as some personal ones (lost "beloved ones", former class mates lookin' dow upon me as e. t. stood right in front of 'em and so on - havin' lost my "home" (the greatest school i've ever been to - however - graduatin' is not possible for psychos like me - nonetheless, i will never forget them - and their time.)) plus silver - fish - and idk, yo.

all i wanted to say - by havin' read so much informtion concerning columbinr as a high school, littleton as a "community" and colorad as a state - i guess they will "win" anything - even by ignoring dylan b. klebold and eric d. harris - that makes me quite furious, i gotta admit, yo.

three years ago i would not have hesitated to go there and see anything "with my own eyes" - fortunately, an employee working together with me in the same "call center" showed me how to not give up - on topic like preudice, chliché(e)s and so on.

actually, i'm glad, that i'm nor hillary clinton nor angela merkel - or some other "de-facto-leader" of the european union; us; western world -- or what so ever.

sorry - bein' quite a it depressed plus self-pittying, i'm cometting too much, i guess.
however - i have been thinkin' about writing to w. and k. harris for years, but - maybe there were some humanoid existences faster than me - so fair enough.
do not want to emphasize their pain plus everlasting - and reoccuring - depression-flash as so many people have actually done and finally made it, yo.

further more - i am known as "mr pathetic" without even bein' able to really understand so-called puns, jokes and so on - so pleaze, pleaze . excuse me, yo

sorry for maybe havin' hurt someones feelings, emtotions or just bein' cryptic-pathetic or whatever - just lve discussin rampage, motives, motivations and the perpetrators' biographies, you know.

thanx for readin' and ttyl

greetz
nightshiftstalker

I think the most obvious evidence that it was the school hierarchy that drove them to murder is the fact that they said it over and over again. They were careful to show this and state it again and again from the BT to what they wrote in their journals and each others' yearbooks, to the final "clue" with a lit fuse and an arrow pointing at CHS.

During the attack they said again and again that this was their revenge against jocks and white hats, bitches, and "godly little whores." Even at the peak of their confusion, when Dylan confronted Evan Todd and Eric was reeling from his broken nose, Dylan continued to state "We don't like jocks."

They expended more rounds shooting at the school itself and its totems of power -- trophy cases, computers, etc than they did shooting at people.  

Yet another way to look at it is, if the bombs had worked they would have taken down the vast majority of the "jocks" and school authority figures that were on their lists in one fell swoop.

I'd say Tom Klebold's comment is quite accurate, if somewhat incomplete.