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 People They Spared?

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Gustopoet2

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PostSubject: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 2:05 pm



The boys either spared from death or let go free a number of people during NBK. Among these are:

1. Brooks Brown: Eric could've said, "Dude, meet me inside" or something like that; instead he actually warned him to get away.

2. Richard Castaldo: said the boys didn't finish him off because he said he didn't believe in God. Up for debate as to whether or not this actually happened.

3. Bree Pasquale: Spoke with Eric, pleaded for her life and was spared.

4. John Savage: recognized by Dylan, spoke with Dylan and was spared; also, was allowed to exit library. TCM member.

5. Evan Todd: spoke with Dylan and was spared, after Eric tried to shoot him. Also, he was a bully and a jock. Go figure.

There are many more...  Does anyone care to add to this list or offer any thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 9:05 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


The boys either spared from death or let go free a number of people during NBK. Among these are:

1. Brooks Brown: Eric could've said, "Dude, meet me inside" or something like that; instead he actually warned him to get away.

2. Richard Castaldo: said the boys didn't finish him off because he said he didn't believe in God. Up for debate as to whether or not this actually happened.

3. Bree Pasquale: Spoke with Eric, pleaded for her life and was spared.

4. John Savage: recognized by Dylan, spoke with Dylan and was spared; also, was allowed to exit library. TCM member.

5. Evan Todd: spoke with Dylan and was spared, after Eric tried to shoot him. Also, he was a bully and a jock. Go figure.

There are many more...  Does anyone care to add to this list or offer any thoughts?


Here's something I found really interesting from Joshua Lapp's library eyewitness report. He was 5 feet away from Daniel.

"Joshua Lapp was a sophomore at Columbine High School and on the day of the massacre, he hid under a table in the library. He was located only about five feet from the table Daniel Mauser cowered under and Josh shielded his friend Brittany in case the gunmen walked by. He recalls: “I was looking over my shoulder the whole time. I wasn’t going to let them shoot me without looking me in the eyes. I used to watch, like, Lethal Weapon - all those action movies. I remember that they say it’s hard to kill somebody if they’re looking you in the eyes. I don’t know if it’s true, but, as far as I was concerned, it was real at the time. So I was making sure that if they were going to come over and shoot us, I was going to look them in the eyes.“

After Eric Harris fatally shot Daniel Mauser in the face, Joshua could see them looming closer to where he resided. He said, “Then, they walked on the outside of Daniel’s desk, so they were about two desk lengths away. They both looked at me. I made eye contact with them both. They were straight-faced, like I would look at somebody walking down the street. They didn’t act like they had hurt anybody a second ago. They acted like it was normal. And for some reason, they kept walking.


It feel like that might be true. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't think there's proof they looked anyone directly in the eyes as they shot. And that could explain them sparing those few people who they had eye-contact conversations with. Which also might be part of the reason Brook's was spared.
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Gustopoet2

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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 9:12 pm

Paradisedreams, that is a sound theory and one that is offered quite often. The only one I can think of who might have made eye contact and been shot was Cassie. I think she had her hands over her eyes, and literally peeked out, eliciting the "peek-a-boo" comment from Eric. He also blew part of one of her fingers off. They could have made eye-contact.

Thanks so much for the info on Joshua Lapp.


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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 9:42 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Paradisedreams, that is a sound theory and one that is offered quite often. The only one I can think of who might have made eye contact and been shot was Cassie. I think she had her hands over her eyes, and literally peeked out, eliciting the "peek-a-boo" comment from Eric. He also blew part of one of her fingers off. They could have made eye-contact.

Thanks so much for the info on Joshua Lapp.


Yeah, I guess she could've. I kinda was referring to the survivors who looked directly into their eyes, not the slight glance that she barely had the chance to do. I think Val was the biggest example. Dylan could've easily finished her off. I know we'll never know the entire story. But i'd like to think that theory has even just a little bit of truth.
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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 24, 2015 9:59 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Paradisedreams, that is a sound theory and one that is offered quite often. The only one I can think of who might have made eye contact and been shot was Cassie. I think she had her hands over her eyes, and literally peeked out, eliciting the "peek-a-boo" comment from Eric. He also blew part of one of her fingers off. They could have made eye-contact.

Thanks so much for the info on Joshua Lapp.


Yeah, I guess she could've. I kinda was referring to the survivors who looked directly into their eyes, not the slight glance that she barely had the chance to do. I think Val was the biggest example. Dylan could've easily finished her off. I know we'll never know the entire story. But i'd like to think that theory has even just a little bit of truth.

It's a good theory.
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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 6:30 am

1) Ok, first of all I have limited trust in Castaldo saying they talked to him. He says one thing in one report, the otehr thing in an interview, yet another thing years later. Either way, he changed his story more than once and I don't consider him to be a relaible source. Doesn't mean I don't respect him or that I accuse him of manipulation - he was in shock, traumatic event, he has the right to change his memories and rememebr things differently than they were.

Still, hardly a trustworthy account given he makes self-contradictoiry testimonies over the years.

2) Brooks - well if you ask me he's more trustworthy, at least he didn't change his version over the years. However people still speculate if he talked with Eric or how that discussion went, since nobody was a witness to that discussion.

I tend to trust Brooks on this one though, at least as far as the fact of the discussion taking place.

I'm not sure if Eric spared him because he wanted him to live, because he didn't want people to think this was a "revenge killing" or because Brooks simply showed up at the wrong time and Eric just told him to get lost so taht he won't spoil NBK. All 3 possibilities are open if you ask me.

3) Bree. Dylan told Eric to shoot her, but Eric was imho still too dazed after his nose wound. Then Dylan distratced him and claled him over to the Shoels table. If you ask me, Bree was not so much spared as she was lucky to talk to Eric when he was dazed and spaced out.

4) Spared, imho because Dylan knew him better than any other victim.

5) Spared, imho because Eric was still dazed and spaced out, while Dylan found himself the only one "running the show" and suddenly didn't feel all that confident anymore. Dylan even in a way asked Eric for permission to leave Todd ("I will let him live, you can shoot him if you want"). Eric was still too spaced out imho to make any sort of rational decision.

6) You forgot Val Shnurr. She was spared because imho she managed to confuse them and fast-talk her way out of it and the shooters moved on.

7) Well, they left the library knowing there's still people alive inside. In some way they did spare them, though p[erhaps in a less explicit manner than they did Savage or Shnurr.


I think Eric spacing out was vital in why many people lived. Had Eric not hurt his nose, Bree would be dead imho. Its netirely possible taht Eric would have shot Todd, or that Dylan would not hesitate and have shot Todd himself knowing Eric is aware and looking at him. Perhaps then they would have both shot more people too.

We will never know for sure, but I think Eric's wound and him losing control over the situation probably greatly helped to put an end to the library killings.

From this point Dylan took over and imho Dylan was more strongly focused on the suicide (by bombs or by bullets) and NBK shifter from being Eric-driven and homicide-centered to suicide-centered.

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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 11:06 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think Eric spacing out was vital in why many people lived. Had Eric not hurt his nose, Bree would be dead imho. Its netirely possible taht Eric would have shot Todd, or that Dylan would not hesitate and have shot Todd himself knowing Eric is aware and looking at him. Perhaps then they would have both shot more people too.

We will never know for sure, but I think Eric's wound and him losing control over the situation probably greatly helped to put an end to the library killings.

From this point Dylan took over and imho Dylan was more strongly focused on the suicide (by bombs or by bullets) and NBK shifter from being Eric-driven and homicide-centered to suicide-centered.

Totally agree, it was a major factor.

Well, I'm convinced "rampage fatigue" was also a very real effect, but Eric's broken nose and the pain from it just lowered the threshold for not finding it fun / enjoyable any more.

Out of the two, Eric was the main driver when it came to kill count and the "legacy" they'd leave behind. Dylan cared less than Eric about that, just wanted his long-awaited dream revenge before suicide, and when he started to feel he'd had enough blood to be satisfied, he was ready for suicide.

The pair without Eric's broken nose might very well have had enough motivation to gain access to other rooms full of people to kill, due to Eric's driving force.




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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 11:39 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think Eric spacing out was vital in why many people lived. Had Eric not hurt his nose, Bree would be dead imho. Its netirely possible taht Eric would have shot Todd, or that Dylan would not hesitate and have shot Todd himself knowing Eric is aware and looking at him. Perhaps then they would have both shot more people too.

We will never know for sure, but I think Eric's wound and him losing control over the situation probably greatly helped to put an end to the library killings.

From this point Dylan took over and imho Dylan was more strongly focused on the suicide (by bombs or by bullets) and NBK shifter from being Eric-driven and homicide-centered to suicide-centered.

Totally agree, it was a major factor.

Well, I'm convinced "rampage fatigue" was also a very real effect, but Eric's broken nose and the pain from it just lowered the threshold for not finding it fun / enjoyable any more.

Out of the two, Eric was the main driver when it came to kill count and the "legacy" they'd leave behind. Dylan cared less than Eric about that, just wanted his long-awaited dream revenge before suicide, and when he started to feel he'd had enough blood to be satisfied, he was ready for suicide.

The pair without Eric's broken nose might very well have had enough motivation to gain access to other rooms full of people to kill, due to Eric's driving force.




As usual, I agree with what you say here -- almost completely. Eric's nose didn't stop him from taking shots at the caf. bomb. He doesn't look that dazed on the video. I'll go along with "rampage fatigue" to some extent, but I also think it is because most of the people they really wanted to kill (enough to kill up close) had already fled the school.

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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 11:55 am

Another little factor that I personally think is neglected by the "Columbiners" -- I'd guess because most here have never had opportunities to carry guns and ammo and extra equipment over long distances while shooting left and right -- is the physical exertion due to ~25 minutes of rampage by that point.

Carrying all the gear (plenty of pipe bombs, backpacks full of ammo) in addition to a shotgun and a carbine, holding them up to shoot, reloading them, etc. will get tiring after a while, especially for a frail, weak teenager.

They practiced shooting at Rampart Range, but they (to my knowledge) never practiced walking for half an hour carrying all their stuff (pipe bombs, ammo, both guns) while reloading and shooting.

(Now, of course, if the cafeteria bombs had gone off, their shooting experience at fleeing targets would've been much closer to the Rampage Range practice than what actually happened.)
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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 12:16 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
As usual, I agree with what you say here -- almost completely. Eric's nose didn't stop him from taking shots at the caf. bomb. He doesn't look that dazed on the video. I'll go along with "rampage fatigue" to some extent, but I also think it is because most of the people they really wanted to kill (enough to kill up close) had already fled the school.

IMO we can almost split the rampage between the "BBN" era and the "ABN" era... (letting you guess what the letters mean ;))

Eric meant business before he broke his nose. If you go through the step-by-step FBI diagrams (starting with 47, link below), I think there's a clear, observable divide.

Shoots at Todd upon entering. Walks to a good spot to set up a "reloading station". Sets down ammo backpacks there. Walks to the windows with the intention of shooting at cops. Shoots at cops. Shoots Curnow point blank. Shoots Ruegsegger point blank. Shoots Bernall point blank. BBN Eric was quite methodical.

And then after that, you'll see him do stuff like try to jump on the bookshelves, shoot aimlessly south between the bookshelves, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 1:44 pm

Yeah was going to mention that. BBN Eric is shooting people point blank staing them in the eyes gleefully chanting "Peakaboo!" and the next second ABN Eric is staring at Bree and repeating: "Do you wanna die?" over and over again.

I think even in his dazed state he tried to scare people, half-on-autopilot in a way, but imho it is clear the injury had a strong effect on him. Not to the point of taking him out of action, but he was dazed and confused afterwards.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm in transit, don't have my sources here), but did Eric kill anyone after he broke his nose?


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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 1:48 pm

Hi, new here, but I thought I'd jump in. As far as Castoldo goes, I find it a rather large coincidence that he just happened to say they asked Rachel the God question right after surgery, way before he could have known anything about Dylan asking Val Shnurr that same question in the library. Does anyone else find that strange?
I suppose there's an explanation that would work, but I can't think of it.
And Shnurr wasn't exactly spared, after she answered him she crawled back under the table and played dead. He was still loading his weapon at the time, after he was done he shot under her table again.
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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 1:51 pm

After Eric broke his nose he killed Isaiah, Daniel and Kelly.
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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 1:59 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Hi, new here, but I thought I'd jump in. As far as Castoldo goes, I find it a rather large coincidence that he just happened to say they asked Rachel the God question right after surgery, way before he could have known anything about Dylan asking Val Shnurr that same question in the library. Does anyone else find that strange?                              
I suppose there's an explanation that would work, but I can't think of it.
And Shnurr wasn't exactly spared, after she answered him she crawled back under the table and played dead. He was still loading his weapon at the time, after he was done he shot under her table again.

In his first testimony to the Police Richard said they shot him and he fell on his back and then just head gunshots, but was not approached and he did not talk with them or ehar them have a conversation with Rachel. This is his version in his testimony in the columbine files (aka 11k document) released by the police.

His version about being asked the God question only came much later. And there's a story that he supposedly told it to him mom after surgery but doesn't remember it etc.

I can relate to not remembering things done just after surgery. I'm just not convinced he ever had any sort of talk with the killers. Timeline doesn't corroborate it. No witness ever emntions seeing them walk up to Richard or to that entrance. Forensics afaik doesn't corroborate it, police went with the version that Scott was shot from away, not point-blank.

My main grips is teh timeline. So much happened so fast outside, Eric had engaged a huge number of targets and reloaded, then he went south to the other entrance firing on Kirklin's group on the way. Dylan is then seen peeking into the cafeteria moments later. I just have a hard time to believe that they did all taht in this short 2-1.5 minute time and had time to walk up to Rachel and Richard and ask them a series of god questions. And if they were there, why would they back out all the way to another entrance?

I dunno, his version about the questions just does not seem to click with any other facts we know about. The fact that it was not his originbal version stated to the police just makes it all the less relaiable if you ask me.

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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 2:06 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
After Eric broke his nose he killed Isaiah, Daniel and Kelly.

Yep. With much glee.

And if you look at him on the Caf. video he is still full of spunk. He skips a step heading back up to the library. He runs purposefully away from the igniting primer-cans on the bomb. He had his wits about him.

I'm disinclined to accept a "BBN" and "ABN" distinction. I'm not even sure his nose was broken; he probably just bloodied it.

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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 2:12 pm

"shoots at Todd upon entering. Walks to a good spot to set up a "reloading station". Sets down ammo backpacks there. Walks to the windows with the intention of shooting at cops. Shoots at cops. Shoots Curnow point blank. Shoots Ruegsegger point blank. Shoots Bernall point blank. BBN Eric was quite methodical"

I would phrase it this way: Eric broke off the attack against students (just as it was starting) to shoot at cops. Dylan helped a minute then he went over and shot at up a jock table.

Eric was still trying to shoot at cops until moments before he died. The whole time they were wandering around shooting at the school they were expecting to run into the cops.

They'd had enough of killing jocks and bitches and most of them were gone, but they still hadn't got any cops.

They went back to the library to shoot at cops, specifically. As you mention they had set up a "cop killing" and/or reloading station there. They only have one bag when they come down to the caf. They went back to shoot at cops.

They were probably looking for cops the whole time. They wanted to kill cops, but they also wanted  the cops to kill them. Eric anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 2:20 pm

I'm honestly not sure it ever happened either. I think it's maybe driven him crazy this whole time and he perhaps manufactured some false memories. However, it's just an odd thing that something very similar did actually happen.
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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 2:23 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Another little factor that I personally think is neglected by the "Columbiners" -- I'd guess because most here have never had opportunities to carry guns and ammo and extra equipment over long distances while shooting left and right -- is the physical exertion due to ~25 minutes of rampage by that point.

Carrying all the gear (plenty of pipe bombs, backpacks full of ammo) in addition to a shotgun and a carbine, holding them up to shoot, reloading them, etc. will get tiring after a while, especially for a frail, weak teenager.

They practiced shooting at Rampart Range, but they (to my knowledge) never practiced walking for half an hour carrying all their stuff (pipe bombs, ammo, both guns) while reloading and shooting.

Right, they rehearsed for an entirely different play. Eric said on one of the BT's:

"He then lists off 5 names and says that he's going to be "one tired mother-fucker come Monday, then BOOM! I'll get shot and die."

Notice he said "I'll get shot" not "I'll shoot myself."

The original plan was to blow up the cliques and the school but shoot it out with the cops and then suicide-by-cop if possible. After that failed they improvised but they were still trying to get the same result.

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PostSubject: Re: People They Spared?   People They Spared? Icon_minitimeSun Jul 26, 2015 2:43 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Hi, new here, but I thought I'd jump in. As far as Castoldo goes, I find it a rather large coincidence that he just happened to say they asked Rachel the God question right after surgery, way before he could have known anything about Dylan asking Val Shnurr that same question in the library. Does anyone else find that strange?                              
I suppose there's an explanation that would work, but I can't think of it.
And Shnurr wasn't exactly spared, after she answered him she crawled back under the table and played dead. He was still loading his weapon at the time, after he was done he shot under her table again.

Yes. Very good points, aubre. Thanks for posting them...

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