Did E & D fool people the most?

I was thinking about Nikolas Cruz and you may be asking why... well because, we've been talking about how many red flags he was throwing around and he kept falling through the cracks.

Then we have Eric and Dylan who were pretty much the good students, a bit rebellious but there were red flags in hindsight. All in all though they were kids who seemed poised to do well after graduation. Dylan especially was quite deft in hiding his true self.

Then on the other end of the spectrum we have Stephen Paddock and for all we know he left NO signs that he was going to commit a massacre and it has been pretty much forgotten already.

I know I asked a while ago which shooters appeared the most "normal" but now I want to see who was the best at keeping the secret of the massacre.

At the time of Eric and Dylan, I think maybe people were less caring about red flags because school shootings happened less often so I don't think people thought about it first, they would have probably thought about the risk of suicide before school shooting. But I think Eric and Dylan fooled people more than Nikolas Cruz because... as you said, Cruz fooled no-one. There were many red flags but people simply ignored them. Nikolas didn't fool people, people fooled themselves.

It is probably easier for a grown-up to fool people, because you can be lonely and nobody will care about you.

Neah wrote:

At the time of Eric and Dylan, I think maybe people were less caring about red flags because school shootings happened less often so I don't think people thought about it first, they would have probably thought about the risk of suicide before school shooting. But I think Eric and Dylan fooled people more than Nikolas Cruz because... as you said, Cruz fooled no-one. There were many red flags but people simply ignored them. Nikolas didn't fool people, people fooled themselves.

It is probably easier for a grown-up to fool people, because you can be lonely and nobody will care about you.

True on all points.

Eric and Dylan seemed like they were on the straight and narrow after the division program. Their parents didn't expect a thing. Hell Dylan had even went through the ruse of taking the trip and picking out his collage dorm room, etc. Eric had tried for the Military, and even though he was rejected because of the meds he was on, I'm sure his mom and dad wasn't worried about his future.

Nikolas Cruz was as "red flag" as one can get. How he was allowed to follow through with his plan that took 17 lives is beyond me. An make no mistake about my wording, I used the word "allowed" on purpose. Because in my mind that is basically what happened.

Everything that has come out about Nik's past, all the times the police were called, all the issues Nik had, all his violent tendencies, him being allowed to have weapons AFTER his mom was told he shouldn't have access to guns, him randomly pulling guns on his family, him telling his therapist that he wanted to be covered in blood, making threats of all kinds online, and to other people, etc. The list in his case just goes on and on. BUT for some damn reason not one fucking person did anything to stop him.

In my opinion the only thing that could actually make this case any worse would be finding out that he had a police escort to the school and they helped him gun down the kids.  With the way this case has unfolded so far, and all the shady AF things that are coming out, I really wouldn't be that surprised.

Paddock didn’t have any social media and just gambled all day and night. It appeared losing was the motive behind what he did. While there was red flags with Cruz, he wasn’t some nut job on a day in and day out basis. He pursued girls because he was lonely but never found anybody before he chose to do what he did. There was a situation that maybe triggers Cruz to do what he did when he got rejected by somebody in class. He killed frogs but there were factors involved. His dog died from eating a frog. There are always two sides to human beings. Always. Nobody is bad all the time and nobody is good all the time. It’s just not possible. It boils down to controlling your emotions and really controlling your anger when things don’t go your way.

I just never understood people’s fascination with guns. Never. You go to Texas and other states. Everybody has a freaking gun. I just don’t get it and I never will.

Or go to any inner city in America, even 13 year olds are walking around with guns. I just don’t get it.

Sane One wrote:

There are always two sides to human beings. Always. Nobody is bad all the time and nobody is good all the time. It’s just not possible. It boils down to controlling your emotions and really controlling your anger when things don’t go your way.

But it's not what ShadowedGoddess and I said. She'll explain her opinions better than I do because I cannot speak for her, but I at least think that we both agree with your statement. We even often commented on that and wrote about that human side. I feel sympathy for mass shooters and I know they are not evil monsters.

What I meant is that, even if things are not all white or all black, when there is so much black you need to do something. The police cannot say "oh, look, it's seem that this boy could shoot his school. But let's forget about it, people are not fully bad."

Neah wrote:

Sane One wrote:

There are always two sides to human beings. Always. Nobody is bad all the time and nobody is good all the time. It’s just not possible. It boils down to controlling your emotions and really controlling your anger when things don’t go your way.

But it's not what ShadowedGoddess and I said. She'll explain her opinions better than I do because I cannot speak for her, but I at least think that we both agree with your statement. We even often commented on that and wrote about that human side. I feel sympathy for mass shooters and I know they are not evil monsters.

What I meant is that, even if things are not all white or all black, when there is so much black you need to do something. The police cannot say "oh, look, it's seem that this boy could shoot his school. But let's forget about it, people are not fully bad."

Wholeheartedly agree.

The world likes to think in terms of black and white, but honestly there are many shades of gray in between.

If you only look at one aspect of something one can easily say they were just monsters, the end. BUT when you look at things with a broader perspective and view someone completely, then it is much harder to say they were pure evil from day one.

Most had good sides or certain qualities that overshadowed or balanced their bad, that is UNTIL the moment of their attacks.

Sane One wrote:

I just never understood people’s fascination with guns. Never. You go to Texas and other states. Everybody has a freaking gun. I just don’t get it and I never will.

Some people don't get it, and that's fine. Not everyone is going to agree on the issue of gun control.  I was raised around guns, have a healthy respect for them, and own quite a few. To certain people it makes no sense, but to others it does.

For example, I live way out in the country. It would take the police anywhere from 25/30 minutes to an hour to make their way to my house. A LOT can happen in that time frame. I like knowing that I can protect myself and my children if I had to.

Sure I will still call the police if something happens, BUT I wouldn't bank on them making it in time to save me either.  So I look at it from the perspective of "It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need one and not have it."

Also I guess it all depends on where you grew up. Around here you would be hard pressed to find a house that didn't have a gun.

Living so far out I understand your view in that case.

Here is a full list of Red Flags.........


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Ziamber II wrote:

Here is a full list of Red Flags.........


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They HAD to add the darn long black trench coats to the list...

Screamingophelia wrote:

Ziamber II wrote:

Here is a full list of Red Flags.........


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

They HAD to add the darn long black trench coats to the list...

Well everyone knows that wearing long black coats is a clear indicator of mayhem in the near future.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Neah wrote:

Sane One wrote:

There are always two sides to human beings. Always. Nobody is bad all the time and nobody is good all the time. It’s just not possible. It boils down to controlling your emotions and really controlling your anger when things don’t go your way.

But it's not what ShadowedGoddess and I said. She'll explain her opinions better than I do because I cannot speak for her, but I at least think that we both agree with your statement. We even often commented on that and wrote about that human side. I feel sympathy for mass shooters and I know they are not evil monsters.

What I meant is that, even if things are not all white or all black, when there is so much black you need to do something. The police cannot say "oh, look, it's seem that this boy could shoot his school. But let's forget about it, people are not fully bad."

Wholeheartedly agree.

The world likes to think in terms of black and white, but honestly there are many shades of gray in between.

If you only look at one aspect of something one can easily say they were just monsters, the end. BUT when you look at things with a broader perspective and view someone completely, then it is much harder to say they were pure evil from day one.

Most had good sides or certain qualities that overshadowed or balanced their bad, that is UNTIL the moment of their attacks.

Some people can hide it really well. Eric and Dylan in many ways were catalysts for looking at these red flags.

They were in a weird social place too. They were sort of outcasts of the "outcasts" and oddly the outcasts were kind of exclusionary too. Didn't they pick on Robert Perry for having a cheap coat? It reminds me of a line from the new 90210. Naomi is the queen bee and she falls in love with Max who is on the math team and very cute but still "nerdy" and she tries to show interest and his friends are mean to her and she says "you know what, YOUR friends are just as mean and snobby as you think mine are."

So back to the social circle. Dylan hung out with the kids in theatre but then kept gravitating more towards Eric who hung out with Chris but was also friends with Kristi, Alyssa and Susan and I am not sure what social circle they were in... they seemed to be able to pass through different social groups as fringe friends but for better or worse they seemed to always be the closest.

I always wonder if someone went back in time to when they were in 8th grade and told them "in 4 years you guys are going to change history, you will fail at bombing your school but you'll end up killing 13 people and the shooting yourselves, but you'll be infamous for YEARS after"

I wonder if there were kids at Columbine who genuinely were loners who would have loved to have taken the place of Eric and Dylan and hung out with the Nate's and Devon's of the school? What made E and D do this and not someone who was a loner.

I have empathy for them up until they decided to go in shooting after the bombs didn't go off. My empathy starts with them though, meaning 2 boys were so hurt and angry and filled with junk and at the end only had each other that they hurt others. How can my heart not break for them?

I do also wonder about the kids in the inner city, why do the school shootings only happen in places like Littleton and Parkland? Most will automatically say "privileged white kids who have nothing better to do" even Sue did mention that Dylan was privileged. Even though he didn't see himself as some rich kid in school. He even took his BMW emblems off. It seems like a lot of people don't want to look at it because they don't care. Mental health and other issues don't care where you live or who you are, they can strike at any time.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Ziamber II wrote:

Here is a full list of Red Flags.........


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

They HAD to add the darn long black trench coats to the list...

Well everyone knows that wearing long black coats is a clear indicator of mayhem in the near future.  

Yea, they also wore a lot of band tshirts, better put those down too....

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I just never understood people’s fascination with guns. Never. You go to Texas and other states. Everybody has a freaking gun. I just don’t get it and I never will.

[...] It would take the police anywhere from 25/30 minutes to an hour to make their way to my house. A LOT can happen in that time frame. I like knowing that I can protect myself and my children if I had to. [...]

I think we have seen it's not only a matter of time...

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Screamingophelia wrote:

Ziamber II wrote:

Here is a full list of Red Flags.........


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

They HAD to add the darn long black trench coats to the list...

I hope that when they say that they mean "in the context of all these other warning signs this could very well be another". I think if you had someone walking around in a Natural Selection t-shirt that could easily be a warning sign if they showed other warning signs alongside that.