Time of duffel bag placement?

There's always been a little confusion about what time the boys placed the duffel bags. The CNN timeline has the boys carrying them in around 11:14am then heading back outside to wait for them to detonate. However there was talk that they had brought them in earlier or even the night before. The security camera tape was supposedly changed around the time they went in, so they were never caught on tape planting them. Also no witnesses to my knowledge saw the boys carrying the bags outside on their way in or inside the cafeteria when they dropped them. Is there any concrete evidence of what time they placed them?

I was re watching Zero Hour and it states the duffel bag bombs were place "sometime earlier that morning" but it doesn't give a time. The boys were running a bit late on the day of the attack. That said does anyone believe they actually planted them that close to their planned detonation time? The boys planned NBK for a year and they had their actions down to exact times. Dylan's ast journal entry states the plan was to set the bombs at 11:09am. Had they done it at that time they would have been on the cafeteria tape before it was changed. If they were really running late then I could see the 11:14am estimation. Still no witnesses saw them which is strange.

Were the bombs not wired up before they took them in? If they had to hook them up in the cafeteria then they most definitely should have been seen by someone. If they had already wired them up to detonate then I can't see either boys taking the risk of blowing up in transit to the cafeteria. Also, if I remember right (I don't have my notes), there were reports of outof place propane tanks in the cafeteria in the days leading up to 4/20. We know that Eric bought propane on the day of the attack. Is it possible the boys planted some before hand in case they couldn't get it on the day of NBK? Could those tanks have been solely for the diversion bomb?

I find it hard to believe with all the planning Eric put into his "babies" that he would take the risk of either:
A. Not having the materials before the day of the attack
B. Taking the risk of not hitting their schedule and missing the chance to use them at 11:17am

Anyone have an opinion or maybe some concrete evidence of what time they took the bombs in? For all the work E and D put into NBK it seems strange they would risk the possibly of not having the bombs in the cafeteria on time.

They were still building the bombs that morning and making shrapnel. They also bought propane and gas.

They never fully assembled the car bombs, so I'm guessing they were still working on the caf. bombs (and diversionary bomb) that a.m.

They placed them after 11:14 AM. That's when the tape was changed.

Yes, it is hard to believe they would be so rushed and sloppy. But neither of them were capable of thinking realistically. They were in a magical fantasy world, detached from reality.

I have always thought that there is a lot more to learn from the cafeteria videos than we currently know.

For example, I don't think anyone has identified exactly where the bags are when the video resumes at 11:22.

Second, I am not convinced that Eric and Dylan do not appear at all before the tape is changed. I think it is quite possible that they appear on the periphery of the cafeteria right before the first tape ends. No one has slowed the tape down and examined it frame by frame.

lasttrain wrote:

I have always thought that there is a lot more to learn from the cafeteria videos than we currently know.

For example, I don't think anyone has identified exactly where the bags are when the video resumes at 11:22.

Second, I am not convinced that Eric and Dylan do not appear at all before the tape is changed.  I think it is quite possible that they appear on the periphery of the cafeteria right before the first tape ends.  No one has slowed the tape down and examined it frame by frame.

No one as in us researchers or the FBI? I would say that if the authorities didnt see them when the tapes were enhanced that they were right. Unfortunately the shady behavior of JeffCo during the investigation makes me weary of what any agency says about the case. The full version that was released is pretty grainy and the constant switching of camera angles can make it hard to make out whats on the tape.

So were any of the big bombs put together before the day of the attack? I know they were still breaking up shrapnel and making pipe bombs in the days leading up to NBK. A pipe is a lot easier and quicker to put together than a time bomb though. The fact that Eric waited until the day of to buy propane goes against the view of him as a "master planner" IMO. I think Eric may have been 50/50 on the bombs actually working. He knew the fire sprinklers would more than likely put them out. Maybe that realization in him made the bombs a lower priority than we think they were. They had guns and pipebombs and they planned on killing no matter what.

I just don't get how no one saw them enter the cafeteria that day. If that was their normal lunch time then surely they had some friends who they sat/ate with. E and D really weren't the kind of guys to carry gym bags around with them. Could it be possible that someone did see them, but didnt report it for fear of being labeled an accomplice? JeffCo was pretty nasty towards the friends of the boys. After seeing the shit they put Brooks through its logical to think they'd want to stay quiet. The media attention allowed JeffCo to conduct a witch hunt in hopes of sticking the blame on someone. It was very detrimental to the case. Why would a teenager want to own up to seeing their classmates planting bombs when they run the risk of being labelled a suspect?

lasttrain wrote:

Yes, it is hard to believe they would be so rushed and sloppy.  But neither of them were capable of thinking realistically.  They were in a magical fantasy world, detached from reality.

Yes, they were. So was everyone else at CHS to some extent.

lasttrain wrote:

I have always thought that there is a lot more to learn from the cafeteria videos than we currently know.

For example, I don't think anyone has identified exactly where the bags are when the video resumes at 11:22.

Second, I am not convinced that Eric and Dylan do not appear at all before the tape is changed.  I think it is quite possible that they appear on the periphery of the cafeteria right before the first tape ends.  No one has slowed the tape down and examined it frame by frame.

Agreed. The videos say a lot. I want to do a frame by frame @ some point.

[quote="Nirvana92"]

I just don't get how no one saw them enter the cafeteria that day. If that was their normal lunch time then surely they had some friends who they sat/ate with. E and D really weren't the kind of guys to carry gym bags around with them. /quote]

They carried them all the time. Eric's "terrorist bag" remember?

I don't remember, but someone mentioned Dylan taking a peek in the cafeteria at the very start of the shooting, when they juts entered the school.

Nirvana92, you raise a lot of great points.  The FBI apparently went over it frame-by-frame and they claim they can find the duffel bags on tape, but I have never seen an enlarged still that shows them.  

After thinking about this for a number of years, I have come to the conclusion that Eric was the one who brought all the explosives into the cafeteria. In No Easy Answers Brooks Brown is absolutely clear that Eric pulls two bags out of the car while he is talking to him (4). Eric is also wearing black pants and a white t-shirt at the time, which was not unusual.  It is a lot easier for me to imagine Eric in street clothes carrying two bombs into the cafeteria unnoticed than it is for me to imagine the more than 6 ft. Dylan doing it in a trench coat.

So, if you look at the tape, you are not looking for Eric and Dylan in trench coats, you are looking for Eric by himself, hatless, in a white shirt and black pants, in the final seconds before the first tape ends.  You are looking for him to walk in the south doors, with the visible stairwell (the one he later crouches on to shoot) on his right as he proceeds to tables at the north central area of the cafeteria.  

If we could figure out from which direction each camera is filming it would make it a lot easier to find him because we would be able to chart exactly what his vector was across the screen from the perspective of that camera--and then look for the individual who matches it.

I believe the problem the FBI had here is that Eric and Dylan claimed they were going to set the bombs together, so the FBI was looking for them both and didn't find them.

lasttrain wrote:

Nirvana92, you raise a lot of great points.  The FBI apparently went over it frame-by-frame and they claim they can find the duffel bags on tape, but I have never seen an enlarged still that shows them.  

After thinking about this for a number of years, I have come to the conclusion that Eric was the one who brought all the explosives into the cafeteria. In No Easy Answers Brooks Brown is absolutely clear that Eric pulls two bags out of the car while he is talking to him (4). Eric is also wearing black pants and a white t-shirt at the time, which was not unusual.  It is a lot easier for me to imagine Eric in street clothes carrying two bombs into the cafeteria unnoticed than it is for me to imagine the more than 6 ft. Dylan doing it in a trench coat.

So, if you look at the tape, you are not looking for Eric and Dylan in trench coats, you are looking for Eric by himself, hatless, in a white shirt and black pants, in the final seconds before the first tape ends.  You are looking for him to walk in the south doors, with the visible stairwell (the one he later crouches on to shoot) on his right as he proceeds to tables at the north central area of the cafeteria.  

If we could figure out from which direction each camera is filming it would make it a lot easier to find him because we would be able to chart exactly what his vector was across the screen from the perspective of that camera--and then look for the individual who matches it.

This is a really great analysis, lasttrain. I have just one objection:

"Investigators established that Harris and Klebold brought the bags containing the large propane bombs into the cafeteria and set them beside two cafeteria tables at the beginning of the first lunch period. The bombs were hidden in duffel bags so they easily blended in with the 400-plus backpacks strewn on the floor, under tables and chairs throughout the cafeteria. Most high school students carry some type of backpack. Two more bags brought in by one of their peers would not raise anyone’s suspicions."

It would have taken both boys to carry the bags. I believe at least one witness, (don't remember who) reported seeing Eric struggling to carry just one of the bags. He wasn't strong enough to carry them both. He didn't have time to make 2 trips as the diversionary bomb was already set to explode at 11:19.

Here's the full tape:



39:56 -- around time of bomb placement.

53:40 -- John Savage runs out...

1:04:24 -- Dylan and Molotov for partial detonation...

1:04:58 partial explosion of bomb.

"The bag appeared to be heavy because Eric Harris was carrying it with both hands. Cafeteria witness Sarah Slater told investigators she had observed a heavy blue duffle bag and had asked her friends sitting at the table with her friends if it belonged to any of them. She tried to move the bag out of the way with her foot, but it was too heavy, so she stepped over it instead of moving it."

Someone did see; kicked it, felt it was heavy and just didn't care to examine it any further or tell anyone.

How did investigators establish that Harris and Klebold did it together? What is the proof of that?

Also, what is the proof that "Eric Harris was carrying it with both hands"? The only person who saw him lift either bag was Brooks Brown, and that was outside.

Want some more evidence that Eric did it by himself? When Brooks went up to him, he watched Eric take one bag out of the car and set it down, and then another.

Ask yourself this question: if one of those bags was Eric's ammo or guns, would he have taken it out of the car and left it unattended on the sidewalk while he carried one of the bombs into the cafeteria? No. So he must've intended to take both bags in.

The bags were not to heavy for him to carry. Each tank was 20 lbs. A study determined that the average weight of a 6th grader's backpack in the US is 20-30 lbs. Eric as a high school senior could easily carry forty pounds. Next time you are at a sporting goods store go heft a pair of 20 lbs. weights.

lasttrain wrote:

How did investigators establish that Harris and Klebold did it together? What is the proof of that?

Also, what is the proof that "Eric Harris was carrying it with both hands"? The only person who saw him lift either bag was Brooks Brown, and that was outside.

Eric Harris was not strong enough to easily carry both packs alone -- also why would he want to when he had already expressed worry that one of the bombs might go off while he was carrying it?

Also, I thought you were all about the 11k and the official story... If i'm not mistaken, this view is coming directly from Jeffco and FBI investigators: that both boys planted the bombs.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

11:14 a.m.

· Between 11:14 a.m. and 11:22 a.m. Harris and Klebold leave their cars and walk into the school’s cafeteria, carrying two large duffel bags containing enough explosive power to kill the majority of the students who soon would be arriving for “A” lunch. The gunmen place the bags on the floor beside two lunch tables and walk back out.
· Blending in with 400 other backpacks and bags scattered throughout the cafeteria, the duffel bags conceal 20-pound propane bombs timed to explode at 11:17 a.m. Harris earlier had determined that 11:17 a.m. was the exact time for the high school cafeteria to be packed with the maximum number of students possible.
· The school custodian goes into the video room to change the school’s cafeteria surveillance videotape.

lasttrain wrote:

Ask yourself this question: if one of those bags was Eric's ammo or guns, would he have taken it out of the car and left it unattended on the sidewalk while he carried one of the bombs into the cafeteria? No. So he must've intended to take both bags in.

The bags were not to heavy for him to carry.  Each tank was 20 lbs. A study determined that the average weight of a 6th grader's backpack in the US is 20-30 lbs. Eric as a high school senior could easily carry forty pounds.  Next time you are at a sporting goods store go heft a pair of 20 lbs. weights.

Probably one bag was one of the caf. propane bombs. The other was probably the components for the car bomb that he set up after Brooks walked away. I assume Dylan did the same thing or you assuming they drove to the school with the car bombs already rigged up?

lasttrain wrote:

 Next time you are at a sporting goods store go heft a pair of 20 lbs. weights.

I could do it with one hand -- and frequently do so. My dumb-bells are, however, not made out of volatile materials like gasoline and propane. I also am not an 18 year old weakling.

Nirvana92 wrote:

I think Eric may have been 50/50 on the bombs actually working. He knew the fire sprinklers would more than likely put them out. Maybe that realization in him made the bombs a lower priority than we think they were. They had guns and pipebombs and they planned on killing no matter what.

Yep. Another thing that indicates just how right you are is how fast they responded when the bombs failed. They obviously had a plan "B" ready to go.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Ask yourself this question: if one of those bags was Eric's ammo or guns, would he have taken it out of the car and left it unattended on the sidewalk while he carried one of the bombs into the cafeteria? No. So he must've intended to take both bags in.

The bags were not to heavy for him to carry.  Each tank was 20 lbs. A study determined that the average weight of a 6th grader's backpack in the US is 20-30 lbs. Eric as a high school senior could easily carry forty pounds.  Next time you are at a sporting goods store go heft a pair of 20 lbs. weights.

Probably one bag was one of the caf. propane bombs. The other was probably the components for the car bomb that he set up after Brooks walked away. I assume Dylan did the same thing or you assuming they drove to the school with the car bombs already rigged up?

According to Brooks Brown, Eric got two bags out of the backseat.  He took them out.  The car bombs were found in the car.  They were not taken out.  So, it wasn't a bag with a car bomb or car bomb components in it.

And yes, I believe they did all the rigging for the car bombs before they came to the school.  My source for this is the to-do list in Eric's planner in Dylan's handwriting which says "9 AM set up car." That can only mean they set up the car bombs at 9 AM, since there was nothing else to set up in the car. Also, there is no way they would want to stand there and rig a bomb in plain sight while their friends could be loitering around the sidewalk.  And they did not have time to rig a bomb in the parking lot according to their timeline, since they arrived at the school around 11:10 and started shooting at 11:19.  

So, in other words, the other bag was not components for a car bomb that Eric planned to rig on site.  So what was it?  Guns and ammo?  Eric would not leave those on the sidewalk sitting in plain sight while he went into the cafeteria.  That only leaves one possibility: these were the two propane bombs, and Eric carried them in alone.

Thank you lasttrain; I appreciate the debate.

From No Easy Answers:

1. "Had I missed something? A detail, something sticking out of his bag? (p.7)

2. I tried to explain about seeing Eric, and what he said to me. "Oh, man, I think he had a duffel bag with him," I said.   (p.10)

A duffel bag, lasttrain. Not duffel-bags.

I don't think Brooks is lying; my interpretation is Eric had a bag for the caf. bomb and one for the car bomb. After Brooks walked away, Eric either gave the car-bomb components a quick once-over and then replaced the bag, or he removed the components and partially assembled them.

The car bombs were never fully assembled which also works against your argument.  

The entry in the day-planner reads: "9:00  made d. bag set up car" -- My guess is that is about the diversionary bomb, that is what "d." stands for. Could be "duffel" of course...

Either way, your argument is based on a single line from No Easy Answers which is contradicted by the same source a few pages later, not to mention the FBI report.

lasttrain wrote:

If we could figure out from which direction each camera is filming it would make it a lot easier to find him because we would be able to chart exactly what his vector was across the screen from the perspective of that camera--and then look for the individual who matches it.

Very easy.

The first view after the screen split four-ways is from the SE corner.

The second is the SW corner.

The third is the NW corner.

The fourth is the NE corner. (They go clockwise.)

Then you have the screen split four ways, with 1-aka-SE at the top left, 2-aka-SW at the top right, 3-aka-NW at the bottom left, and 4-aka-NE at the bottom right.

Then the cycle begins again with the 1-aka-SE view.

Lasttrain: Would not Brooks Brown have noticed a (partially) assembled car bomb in Eric's back seat as he was standing there talking to him? He was close enough to see him pulling bags out, so I assume like anyone else might do, he glanced into the backseat of the car to see what else might be in there.

If there was, as you suggest, a danger of being spotted by in partially assembling the car bombs @ the school, then it makes even more sense that Brooks, standing right by the car, would have seen the components, or smelled the gas.

What makes more sense is he saw two duffel bags, then as he was walking away saw Eric holding one bag, as the other had been used to transport the un-assembled car bomb.

It would only take seconds to unzip the bag and give it a once-over or to remove the components and jury-rig them together.

If they had assembled the car bombs earlier that morning why not finish wiring them? They had plenty of time.

Some other points:

1) One person planting both bags would actually arouse more suspicion in the cafeteria than two people at slightly staggered intervals.

2) It was unnecessary for Eric to carry both bombs.

3) He was worried about the volatility of carrying one bag with a bomb in it.

4) It is impractical to carry two heavy bags simultaneously while you are also trying to look inconspicuous.

There's more but this will do for now.

There is no way Eric or Dylan set up any bombs in the parking lot. First of all, they said they were going to set up all bombs at home before 11AM and they left no time for it after.

Second, there is no way Eric would have rigged a bomb in a busy area with people he might know walking by when he had allotted an hour or more to do it at home.

There is zero evidence he rigged a bomb in the lot, and it's not even possible given how little time he had and how many people were walking by.

lasttrain wrote:

There is no way Eric or Dylan set up any bombs in the parking lot.  First of all, they said they were going to set up all bombs at home before 11AM and they left no time for it after.

Second, there is no way Eric would have rigged a bomb in a busy area with people he might know walking by when he had allotted an hour or more to do it at home.

There is zero evidence he rigged a bomb in the lot, and it's not even possible given how little time he had and how many people were walking by.  

Lasttrain -- you have not answered my questions but that's OK. You have created a scenario you believe in. Doesn't have any evidence to support it and is contradicted by the official reports and also by the single source you are citing as evidence. This is very much like Cullen, so I am not surprised to know that you value his perspective.  

The car bombs were not assembled. The way the bombs were "rigged" rather than assembled, in fact, is evidence that your position is wrong.

Your arguments contradict themselves all over the place, btw. First you say "They planted the bombs when there weren't people around to see them." Then you say "They were afraid to hastily rig up the car bombs because people could see them."

And THEN you say: Brooks is a reliable witness of 2 duffel bags being set on the ground right next to Eric's car but he is too blind to notice a CAR BOMB in the back seat of Eric's car.

Please see my upstream post. If you have a mind to do so I would love to see your answers to my objections. When you have finished answering those, I will be happy to list another half-dozen objections.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

I think Eric may have been 50/50 on the bombs actually working. He knew the fire sprinklers would more than likely put them out. Maybe that realization in him made the bombs a lower priority than we think they were. They had guns and pipebombs and they planned on killing no matter what.

Yep. Another thing that indicates just how right you are is how fast they responded when the bombs failed. They obviously had a plan "B" ready to go.

Yep, that was my conclusion in the end. Back in the old forums I held the opinion that they primarily relied on the bombs, and were surprised and improvised everything when they failed.

But more recently, I went through the whole timeline and decided its obviously not the case. There's simply little to no room in the timeline for them standing confused and discussing with one another what went wrong or what they should do. They gave a bit more time and then started shooting without heistation, or without going inside to check the bombs again before the shootout.

I'm pretty sure Eric was at least to some extent aware how much of a shoestring attempt the bombs were and I'm pretty sure they had a plan B (even if said plan was hardly military genius material).

Anyone care to take a stab at what "code name" they may have had for plan B?

I image after the bombs failed they met up just for a second and Eric probably said something like: "Fuckers failed! OK, it's ----!"

Who knows, it might have beenn "Plan B" for all I know. Or they had a hand-sign for it?

Sabratha wrote:

Who knows, it might have beenn "Plan B" for all I know. Or they had a hand-sign for it?

Eric loved military terminology.

meenwhile wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

Who knows, it might have beenn "Plan B" for all I know. Or they had a hand-sign for it?

Eric loved military terminology.

The only military term I can think of for Plan B would be "fallback."

Technically the bomb plan was a contingency plan - “an event that may but is not certain to occur."

The backup plan was a fallback plan - "implemented when the contingency plan fails or is not fully effective."

Yeah, contingency.

Alternatively (but its slang more than formal terminology) there's "OOA" - only option available.

Cool -- thanks Sabratha and meenwhile.