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 They could have died at the same time.

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PostSubject: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeThu Jan 31, 2019 1:28 pm

The few details surrounding their deaths have never really sat right with me. I was thinking about it last night, and it seems really strange that Eic would kill himself first, and then Dylan would go through his pre-death ritual (taking his jewelry off, lighting a molotov) alone, then do it. After reading his journals, I would have guessed he'd have been more likely to realize that it was the end and then suggest they do it.

The only way I could see Eric doing it first would be if the gravity of the situation hit him; realizing that eiter he can die or live the rest of his life in prison.

But that's all speculation. What occured to me last night, though, was a hole in the evidence as it's usually presented.

I've seen that that since Eric's brain matter was found to be on the table before the molotov had burned it, the only logical conclusion was that the molotov was lit after he died.

My problem with this comes from the characteristics if the molotov cocktail itself. I haven't seen pictures of it, but I'm going to assume that it was in a glass bottle, since this is the most common way they're made. That means that if the bottle was set on the table and then lit, it would have to be mouth-up. So in that case, the only way for the bottle to break and spill it's burning contents would be from the heat of the burning fuel; something that would take time.

I think it's entirely feasable that it went over like this:

They return to the library, shoot at the police again, and somehow (through collective decision/ realization or spontaneity) decide to kill themselves. Dylan removes his jewelry, and one of them lights the molotov (I can't remember who was carrying them). They commit suicide (count to three, say "now", whatever). Eric's brain matter lands on the table. Minutes later, the bottle breaks, covering the table in flaming fuel.

Has anyone else had this thought?
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PostSubject: Re: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeThu Jan 31, 2019 8:31 pm

Dylan probably threw the Molotov on top of the table. That would break it. People usually throw them. I'm gonna assume Dylan would too.

They definitely didn't die at the same time. Eric died instantly. Dylan did not. There's far more evidence supporting the fact that Dylan shot himself after Eric than there is evidence supporting them pulling the trigger at the same time.
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PostSubject: Re: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeThu Jan 31, 2019 8:45 pm

hvernon wrote:
Dylan probably threw the Molotov on top of the table. That would break it. People usually throw them. I'm gonna assume Dylan would too.

They definitely didn't die at the same time. Eric died instantly. Dylan did not. There's far more evidence supporting the fact that Dylan shot himself after Eric than there is evidence supporting them pulling the trigger at the same time.

You're right about them dying at different times, I misspoke. Pat Ireland's statement about hearing coughing and the note about blood in Klebold's lungs in the autopsy confirms this.

Also, Eric's lack of the top of his skull does too.

Do we have any photos or anything stating that the molotov was thrown on the table?

I suppose the end-all-be-all would be the full 911 call released. I'd imagine you'd be able to hear one or two random gunshots after a long period of silence.
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PostSubject: Re: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeThu Jan 31, 2019 8:50 pm

NorThWest wrote:
hvernon wrote:
Dylan probably threw the Molotov on top of the table. That would break it. People usually throw them. I'm gonna assume Dylan would too.

They definitely didn't die at the same time. Eric died instantly. Dylan did not. There's far more evidence supporting the fact that Dylan shot himself after Eric than there is evidence supporting them pulling the trigger at the same time.

You're right about them dying at different times, I misspoke. Pat Ireland's statement about hearing coughing and the note about blood in Klebold's lungs in the autopsy confirms this.

Also, Eric's lack of the top of his skull does too.

Do we have any photos or anything stating that the molotov was thrown on the table?

I suppose the end-all-be-all would be the full 911 call released. I'd imagine you'd be able to hear one or two random gunshots after a long period of silence.

Yes, Ireland did report hearing some kind of coughing that was likely Dylan's last breaths. He would have been unconscious though.

I recall someone mentioning in the report hearing something like "1-2-3" but that it was disproved by most people here. That might be where you got that idea from?

I haven't seen all the photos in all the reports, but I don't recall ever seeing any photos of a Molotov. Hopefully someone else can come along and let us know if there are any. I don't think I have ever even read the descriptions of the Molotovs they carried to be honest.

I wish we would get the full 911 call, but that probably won't happen. It would be nice. I'd like to say that I want to listen to it, but I bet I couldn't make it through it hearing the kids screaming and stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeThu Jan 31, 2019 9:02 pm

The only way for Eric's gun to end up under his legs and Dylan to land on top of his legs is if Eric's legs were already on top of the gun when Dylan fell on top of him. Even if it was just a few seconds before, Eric was 100% the one who shot himself first. When Eric sat up against the bookshelf his knees were bent. He shot himself in the mouth, the gun flew under his legs, after he died his legs dropped on top of the gun and that was his death position. Then Dylan shot himself and landed on top of Eric's legs.

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PostSubject: Re: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeThu Jan 31, 2019 9:42 pm

I think you can see the reminisce of the molotov cocktail in the library tour video. I thought there was a longer one where you can see where E and D died

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but on the desk you can see the remains of it. I don't know if that helps any.

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PostSubject: Re: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeThu Jan 31, 2019 11:50 pm

NorThWest wrote:
The only way I could see Eric doing it first would be if the gravity of the situation hit him; realizing that eiter he can die or live the rest of his life in prison.

This might be a bit of a derail but I always figured Eric killed himself after realizing that the car bombs failed to go off. The sheer embarrassment he must've felt knowing that his grand plan of eclipsing the kill count of Timothy McVeigh failed spectacularly...that probably tipped him over the edge.

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PostSubject: Re: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeFri Feb 01, 2019 3:24 am

Eric hated himself as much as, if not more than Dylan hated himself. He was suicidal too, he had put that on his forms when he saw a therapist. He was also much more decisive than Dylan I think, if he decided it was time to go, then he just did it. Dylan always struck me as someone who faffed about, he talked a bit about suicide but very little about how he was going to do it for someone who was apparently suicidal. Maybe, even in the last moment he was still not sure he wanted to go through with it.

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PostSubject: Re: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeFri Feb 01, 2019 7:52 am

As for the characteristics of the Molotov cocktail, the Time magazine article on the Basement Tapes (I think, I am certain it was one of the Time articles on the massacre), said it was a Frappuccino bottle, presumably filled with gas and oil and with a fuse shoved through the lid. I've never been able to do anything with that information, but maybe you can. I am pretty sure it was placed and not thrown, or else it would not have scorched the table top but bounced elsewhere presumably. I also tend to think it was more about one last hope of burning down the library and getting the fires they wanted after the bombs failed, than it was some 'timer' or something. Maybe also the added mystery of who did the crime for longer if their corpses were supposed to be charred - "Billowing smoke, who's to  blame"

Of course, I've considered it possible that they killed themselves (or rather, shot themselves) at the same time or close enough. They had a hand signal for suicide, a finger-gun to the head, so it's possible they said nothing.

We also don't know for sure it was Eric's brain matter as far as I'm aware. We just know it was somebody's brain matter, and Eric is the most likely candidate.

However, like Jenn states, it seems pretty clear Dylan's blood is on Eric's legs. There's also a mark on his arm presumably from before he was rolled over.

Also agree that Dylan seems more suicidal, yet also a bit more afraid to do it. Indeed one interpretation for the whole massacre is it's an excuse for Dylan's suicide. The threat of jail would force him, the infamy would make it feel like he did something with his life, the partner in crime would mean he didn't have to die alone, etc. The pain doesn't seem to be a concern with him, especially if he cut himself or really thought about tying a pipe bomb to his neck. Given that nobody was injured by their pipe bombs, that probably would not have ended well for him. I think Eric was more concerned with the pain aspect. Hence he blows his brains out pretty immediately without any ritual as Dylan seemed to do.

Also, from playing Doom and trying to make a napalm torch thingy, I think Eric wanted his death to be like when you shoot the rocket launcher too close to a wall or monster, which is probably the quickest way to go in the game. That's my interpretation of the "that's the suicide plan" comment while pointing to the napalm backpack in the basement tapes, presumably meaning he would blow it up when the time came, and that the napalm was the answer to the rocket launcher the same way the TEC-9 and carbine were the answer to the chain gun (and the shotgun the answer to i. e. same as the shotgun)

While with Dylan's death I imagine it a bit slower. Supposedly the TEC-9 was close but not touching his temple. One can imagine him on his knees, eyes closed, the gun quivering a short distance away.
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PostSubject: Re: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeFri Feb 01, 2019 7:58 am

QuestionMark wrote:
NorThWest wrote:
The only way I could see Eric doing it first would be if the gravity of the situation hit him; realizing that eiter he can die or live the rest of his life in prison.

This might be a bit of a derail but I always figured Eric killed himself after realizing that the car bombs failed to go off. The sheer embarrassment he must've felt knowing that his grand plan of eclipsing the kill count of Timothy McVeigh failed spectacularly...that probably tipped him over the edge.
It's definitely a possibility. I bet he could see quite a few cops and SWAT as well from the library. Maybe it's both. Not "omg im so embarrassed" but "well, the car bombs aren't going to take out the swat team, only a matter of time now." I am inclined to think something like that since in general I think while people picture what went through their heads they too often act like they knew the cops were staying outside.  If they knew that, then yeah embarrassment at the car bombs failing is about all I can think of, or ammo running low, which I guess is another possibility.

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PostSubject: Re: They could have died at the same time.   They could have died at the same time. Icon_minitimeMon Sep 26, 2022 1:07 pm

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