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 The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point

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PostSubject: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeFri Jul 31, 2015 2:13 pm

By my reckoning this rifle was the most effective firearm the boys had in their arsenal. According to wikipedia:

"The Hi-Point carbine is a series of carbines chambered for 9×19mm Parabellum, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. A .380 ACP variant has also been introduced. They are very inexpensive, constructed using polymers and alloyed metals as much as possible, resulting in a reduction of production costs and sale price. It functions via a simple direct blowback action."

It has also been adopted for use by a few police departments:

"The Hi-Point carbine was developed for the civilian market and not specifically aimed at police department use. Nevertheless, it has been approved and purchased by a small number of local police departments that cannot easily afford to outfit all of their officers with more expensive long guns."

It is apparently known as a "plinking" rifle, one that is a good "knockabout camp or truck gun." Of further interest "Some 28,000 were made and sold in 1998 alone."

I believe this rifle was the newest and most accurate gun the boys had during NBK. You can see Eric firing the rifle @ 2:07 in the RR video.

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This the rifle Eric used to fire at Neil Gardner. The weapon jammed during the exchange of fire. Gardner's counter-fire drove Eric into the school.

On the RR video Mark Manes makes reference to the crappy bullets they are using. The guns they are using at RR jam numerous times.

Can someone explain the reason that cheap bullets are more likely to cause a gun to jam? (I am an ignoramus on firearms).

Was this a decent weapon? Did Eric get what he paid for?

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Dico




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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeFri Jul 31, 2015 3:02 pm

I think the Hi-point was a decent weapon. Not sure if it jammed up as much as Dylan's Tec-9, but definitely the best gun out of the four they had.

Here's a video of someone demonstrating the exact weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeFri Jul 31, 2015 3:17 pm

Thanks Dico -- so the rifle did have some issues.

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeFri Jul 31, 2015 4:12 pm

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeFri Jul 31, 2015 4:19 pm

meenwhile wrote:


Why is it illegal for shotguns to be sawed off? Based on Mark Manes and Phil Duran's reports, they didn't realize E&D had sawed-offs until their third time at Rampart Range (when the video was filmed), and they were taken aback by it.

Why does Mark Manes refer to the Tec-9 as his "ghetto gun"? I assume it's used in drive-by shootings or something?

How bad were Eric and Dylan at aiming? It seems like they only practiced a few times. Ballistics may or may not provide useful info (maybe they were intentionally shooting the floors and walls to damage the school, for example). They also had a number of head shots and almost-kills - teenagers are harder to kill than grade schoolers (though Lanza seemed to be a really good shot anyway).

In Rampart Range, it looks like Eric almost shoots his own hand off, and Dylan is aiming his gun at both Phil and himself when reloading. Do you think this was just negligence on both their parts?

Sorry for the bazillion questions, but I forgot how interested I was in the guns! O_O



Sawed-offs are illegal because they are too easy to conceal that way. The "ghetto gun" remark  re: the TEC-9: see this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Sabratha and others posted some great info.

I think it was the guns more than their aiming that caused so many misses both at RR and during NBK.

Yes -- negligence and reckless abandon. Plus they sawed off the shotguns too short. Many people have commented on the homicidal/ suicidal way Dylan acts in the segment you're referring to. Note also how Eric briefly sees Dylan pointing the sawed-off at himself and just looks away.

This is also a great thread for the RR stuff:

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeFri Jul 31, 2015 11:47 pm

Gustopoet2 wrote:
Did Eric get what he paid for?
How much did he pay for it? I always wondered that.

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeSat Aug 01, 2015 12:11 am

This was the best I could do:

"The boys' Hi-Point, which cost about $180"

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeSat Aug 01, 2015 12:41 am

So for $180 I guess I'd say Eric got what he paid for. It seems like a much better deal than the Tec 9 for $500 bucks. I was always under the impression that the guns jammed because they bought cheap ammo? I'm not sure how accurate that is as I don't know much about guns. They do interest me a bit though.

I think the boys just got whatever guns they could get their hands on. I doubt they knew a great deal about guns or were looking for a particular one. There were a few people on the old forum who knew a lot about guns and one member had videos of him shooting a gun similar to one that was used in Columbine and another guy had the same exact shotgun that Eric had. If there are any people on the forum who know a bit on guns maybe they could join in the discussion?

About sawing them off, didn't Dylan saw his off way too much? I read that the more you saw off the more forceful it kicks back. I imagine that is why Eric broke his nose. Also Dylan said his hands were bleeding from using the sawed off double barrel. I also imagine that is why Dylan only shot that gun a few times on 4/20. Personally, I think the double barrel was a big waste of time.

Does anyone else get the feeling Eric took the better guns for himself and just left Dylan with the left overs? Eric ended up with 2 pretty decent guns and Dylan ended up with a double barrel that took forever to load/unload and only shot 2 bullets from 2 different barrels and he also ended up with a Tec 9 that kept jamming up. I think Dylan favored the Tec over the shotgun. Dylan had a bullet in his boot though leaving me with the impression he planned on using the shotgun for his suicide. I wonder what made him change his mind? The forceful kick of the shotgun, maybe? Maybe he didn't think he could steady it enough to shoot himself in the temple. Maybe he just didn't want to put it in his mouth and it would have been too awkward to hold to his temple? Or perhaps he saw what the shotgun did to Eric's head? At that point, I doubt he cared.

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeMon Aug 03, 2015 4:05 am

They have a .45 caliber model at the gun shop in my town. Its selling for $145 new. I'd never seen a Hi-Point carbine before I got into Columbine and the gun has become iconic for me personally. I'm thinking about getting one since I just moved to a house outside the city for plink shooting. I've heard from a couple people at the shop that they are very reliable guns. They're very cheap for the quality and the boys were "lucky" to have come across one with their tight budget. It was easily the most reliable weapon either of the boys had on them during NBK.
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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeMon Aug 03, 2015 4:57 am

meenwhile wrote:

How bad were Eric and Dylan at aiming? It seems like they only practiced a few times. Ballistics may or may not provide useful info (maybe they were intentionally shooting the floors and walls to damage the school, for example). They also had a number of head shots and almost-kills - teenagers are harder to kill than grade schoolers (though Lanza seemed to be a really good shot anyway).

In Rampart Range, it looks like Eric almost shoots his own hand off, and Dylan is aiming his gun at both Phil and himself when reloading. Do you think this was just negligence on both their parts?

RR aiming? Negligence and lack of real gun-safety training. Obviously people who were never a poart of any NRA-style gun safety course.

Aiming:

Dylan had no reliable long or even middle range semi auto gun. His shotgun would have been much better with slugs (I remember youtubers who made positive comments about the Stevens accuracy, but these were non-sawn offs with slugs). Issue is - Dylan sawn it off too short, so it became useless with all the recoil at longer ranges. I think that's why they used buckshot - they knew it would suck trying to shoot longer ranges, so they went for close range capacity.

I'm surprised they went for sawn-offs if all they wanted to do was bring them out of the car and move a couple of meters to the stairs outside CHS. Dunno, I'd wrap it in paper togeatehr with some piples or broomsticks and say its for some art project or whatever. Its not like they were gonna pass an israeli checkpoint on the way, or planning to cross the Delaware.

Eric's rifle:
Hi-Point is a cheap rifle and its not that great either. Hate to sound grisly or space-monkey-ish, but it needs to be said that Eric did in fact make some good mid range shots, plus it was at people who were running (I'm not gonna be specific because of respect to individual victims).

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeMon Aug 03, 2015 12:45 pm

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeMon Aug 03, 2015 1:00 pm

meenwhile wrote:
Thanks everyone!! The excerpted article about the Tec-9 was very interesting, and I agree that it probably made up for its crappy quality by being so intimidating.

Sabratha, now you've really piqued my interested regarding who was running... I may need to conduct some further research.

Think she was referencing Dave Sanders.

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeMon Aug 03, 2015 6:45 pm

Id say Eric's pump action was the most effective. 5 shots that can be fired as fast as you can pump it, also atleast 2-3 times faster to load than the double barrel. Dylans weapons sucked.
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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeTue Aug 04, 2015 11:35 am


This vid has a review of the gun. He does go off topic at time, mentioning a red dot sight he got etc, but its not a bad showcase of the weapon.

Guy seems to be an average joe and according to him the range isn 't great: "Its not gonna shoot 200 yards (...) it wouldn't be something I'd be able to do with it very well".

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeTue Aug 04, 2015 12:25 pm

Thanks, Sabratha!

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeTue Aug 04, 2015 12:38 pm


One on the tec-9. Guy knows what he's taslking abotu, but be mindfull that this is a very pro-gun-rights NRA-style-policy channel. But while they migth be bleeding heart pro-gun people, the info about the gun itself is solid. I'm not promoting these guys, identify with them or hold their views btw, just so you know.

Oh and it shows that the TEC-9 is actually pretty accurate at short range. IT doesn't jam even once through the firing, so its either a good specific individual gu, or he's lucky. But rest assured - youtube is full of videos where people fire TEC-9 and they jam all the time.

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeTue Aug 04, 2015 12:41 pm

Sabratha wrote:
IT doesn't jam even once through the firing, so its either a good specific individual gu, or he's lucky. But rest assured - youtube is full of videos where people fire TEC-9 and they jam all the time.

Thanks!

There's a thread for the TEC-9 here:

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2015 12:57 pm

Coming from someone who's shot over a hundred rounds down that very same gum before, I'd say it's a decent gun that's fun as all hell to shoot. Personally, I think it may have just been cheap ammunition as to the reason why it continued jamming because it never jammed on me once, Maybe a bit of wear and tear as well, Though I'm not certain. I also think as far as accuracy and stuff goes they really didn't have any proper training with their firearms and no one to really correct bad habits. Watching the RR video alone, I can already see some improper handling of the firearms. I'm no expert, But i know enough to get by.
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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2015 1:28 pm

Thanks Duskstareblazeithappypone. The following info seems to back up your statement that the operator and ammo are more likely to cause a jam than problems with the weapon itself.

"My handgun keeps jamming. What's wrong?

This question is like calling the auto mechanic and saying "my car is making a funny noise, what's wrong? " I'll try to address a couple of common causes.

1.Operator error. Yes, that's right, it's probably the fault of the shooter, assuming a modern gun in good repair. I realize that in this day and age, the concept of personal responsibility is foreign to many, but that's the way it is. It's usually the shooters fault if the gun jams. "Limp wristing" is the condition that occurs when a loose grip is taken on the gun, allowing the whole gun to move in the hand, instead of the slide moving relative to the frame. Corrective measure? Hold on to the gun!

2. Sub standard ammo. It never ceases to amaze me how people will spend big bucks on a gun, then buy the cheapest ammo they can find. Unknown origin, uncertain age, questionable quality, doubtful reliability, inconsistent pressures, and yet they blame the gun when problems occur. Incredible! Buy first quality ammo from major U.S. manufacturers and you minimize the chances of ammo problems.

3. Magazine problems. Yes, the magazine is a machine too, and must be maintained, cleaned, and checked for mechanical problems. Cleanliness, spring strength, lip condition, follower movement, all these and more must be checked and verified before blaming the gun for a problem.

4. Poor maintenance. Proper cleaning and lubrication is essential to your guns well being. So is inspection for broken or worn parts, and proper fitting together of moving parts. This is your responsibility as the gun owner. You would be astounded at how many guns come into the shop filthy, caked with grime, bore full of lead, and somehow the problems are the guns fault. I don't think so! Take care of your equipment and it will take care of you.

5. Problems with the firearm itself. This is the last, and least likely, of the causes of a jam in any modern, properly maintained firearm. In fact, the incidences are so rare that it is astonishing when it does occur. Only after I had checked all of the above would I begin to suspect the gun itself. If you have eliminated all the other possible causes, then and only then should you take you gun to a gunsmith, or back to the factory for warranty work."

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Can someone please explain why cheap ammo makes a gun jam?

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PostSubject: Re: The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point    The Guns of Columbine: Hi-Point  Icon_minitimeSat Aug 22, 2015 1:51 pm

Well, I remember looking into this back in the day and there were instances of people on youtube using teh TEC-9 in particular and complained how some specific TEC-9 units would go faulty and jam all the time, while another TEC-9 would operate ok under same ammo and conditions.
I've heard a lot of people comment that it had shoddy production values and quality control, so you could get both good and bad individual guns.

The large mag that Dylan had was hovewer almost univerally described as unreliable and causing various issues. That's probably why Dylan hardly got to use it. I'm surprised they have not tested it before... or was it among one of the last-second purchases from Manes?

Why cheap ammo jams? Often its a case of brass vs steel casing, especially if the gun is older and was manufactured for brass. At times it can be the type of powder taht is used, cauing clogging or burning up improperly. Gun nuts can argue about it ad mortem defecatam. Best ask someone very proficient with this.

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