The Biggest Question

Jenn wrote:

aubre wrote:

Jenn wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I do not think [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was referring to you. I believe they were referring to members who have openly admitted to being a fan of Eric's.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], is there any proof though that the police didn't act on this because it was Judy Brown doing the complaining? Say it was some other random kids Mother complaining that Eric was going to kill her son, you think the police would have arrested Eric or at least questioned him and searched his website? It was always my understanding that they intended on doing this but a cop got sloppy and misplaced the paperwork and never got around to it. Eric WAS supposed to at least be brought in for questioning. You don't think this would have gotten 'misplaced' if it was another parent?

Oh ok, maybe, he quoted me and left me going I know I've talked about him a number of times but I thought that's why were here.

No, you're absolutely right. It is why we're all here and anyone can share whatever thoughts/opinions they have. You can discuss whatever you'd like about Eric. But I just didn't want you to feel as though someone was accusing you of being a 'fan' when you've never said or even hinted around that you were one. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] has openly admitted to being a fan of Eric's so I believe [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was referring to her.

I can see how you'd easily get confused though because the conversation quotes are out of order. I'll have to try and fix that up so that the conversation makes more sense. The response to you was above your comment instead of below it, so when RC responded, it looked like the quote and response was going to you.

fantasykingdom985 wrote:

I see your point, however I am thinking more of  E&D's parents not taking her seriously. I think the police were thinking of investigating, but got distracted by another case. I think that so much time had passed by the time they got back to it that they thought if Eric was going to do something he would have done it already. Nowadays they most likely would have still investigated, but back then teenagers were not excatly known for having long planning stages for murder. E&D were the first teenagers to have taken so long in planing a school shooting. Most school shootings until 4/20/99 seemed to not have much planing.

Ah OK, I was a bit confused with what you were saying. I thought you were saying that the police didn't take Judy Brown seriously and I was thinking that the police can't just not follow up on her claims because of who she was. Now that you've said Dylan and/or Eric's parents, that makes much more sense. I don't think the Brown's ever had a problem with Dylan but yes, they did go to Eric's parents quite a bit about the things Eric was doing. Ultimately I think Judy went to the police because she felt that the Harris' weren't disciplining Eric. She even said something along the lines of Eric having his own parents fooled but that he wouldn't fool her.

I do think the Brown's were way too involved with interviews and talking about Columbine after it happened though. I mean, Judy was a friend of Susan's and within hours or days of the shooting happening, she was talking publicly about how the Klebold's reacted/what they did and where they went the night of the shooting, etc. I think that if she was really their 'friend' she should have just kept quiet and gave the Klebold's some privacy, not telling the entire world what they were going through. Regardless of Dylan being a murderer, their entire world was just torn apart and they lost a child and not only did they lose a child but they lost the entire impression of what they thought he was. That could not be easy, you know? And here your 'friends' that sat with you the entire day waiting to hear if your son was alive is off talking to the media hours later.

So I guess it's fair to say I too have complex feelings about the Brown's.

Oh yeah I can see it now I can see it allot better on the mobile version. I saw the whole Judy Brown thing and reacted. I would not want to be called a fan, I'm fine with most of them. But some are just god-awful. Not anyone on here that I've noticed. But there's one in particular I'm thinking of, I'll call her the blond evil Muppet lady, and I just don't want to be associated with it.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I am talking about the incident where she saw him at the grocery story buying a gun magazine and ran home and called the cops on him. He wasn't breaking the law then.
Yes , they did trash them after 2004.They had a falling out. I posted a link about this to L Porter, but here it is again:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Randy has said some unkind things about them in public as well.

Oh, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things about the Brown's that bother me. Like, why did they get to see the Basement Tapes? Neither one of their children were murdered or even injured. I think that bugs me the most. They knew the Klebolds, OK and their son, at one point, was friends with Dylan but why did they get to view the tapes? I honestly do not understand that. And they definitely used the shooting for their 15 minutes of fame. And why was it any of their business who the Harris' and Klebold's sat down with? Once again, it wasn't their children that got injured or murdered. And Judy saying Sue was a bad friend? What about when she was running her mouth to the public just hours after the shooting? Her own son was devastated and instead of comforting him, she's off talking to the media. So yea, like I said, I do have my issues with them but what I'm referring to is Judy calling the cops on Eric threatening to kill her son. She had every right to do that and I think any Mother would. With the gun magazine, I don't think Eric even bought it, he was just reading it at a grocery shop.

Thank you for clarifying Jenn.
You and I are basically in agreement about the Browns with a few exceptions.
Not that it matters but since Eric was actually in the checkout line or so as reported by Judy, I guess he probably did buy it.

Take this for whatever you feel Sue's word is worth, but she this at her first police interview "
Sue Klebold is aware that Judy didn't like Eric Harris but stated that Judy didn't like a lot of people."
I'm paraphrasing but that is close to being a direct quote.
That has made me wonder if Judy had a history of complaining about people in a heavy handed way .

Jenn wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I am talking about the incident where she saw him at the grocery story buying a gun magazine and ran home and called the cops on him. He wasn't breaking the law then.
Yes , they did trash them after 2004.They had a falling out. I posted a link about this to L Porter, but here it is again:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Randy has said some unkind things about them in public as well.

Oh, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things about the Brown's that bother me. Like, why did they get to see the Basement Tapes? Neither one of their children were murdered or even injured. I think that bugs me the most. They knew the Klebolds, OK and their son, at one point, was friends with Dylan but why did they get to view the tapes? I honestly do not understand that. And they definitely used the shooting for their 15 minutes of fame. And why was it any of their business who the Harris' and Klebold's sat down with? Once again, it wasn't their children that got injured or murdered. And Judy saying Sue was a bad friend? What about when she was running her mouth to the public just hours after the shooting? Her own son was devastated and instead of comforting him, she's off talking to the media. So yea, like I said, I do have my issues with them but what I'm referring to is Judy calling the cops on Eric threatening to kill her son. She had every right to do that and I think any Mother would. With the gun magazine, I don't think Eric even bought it, he was just reading it at a grocery shop.

I think that the leson we can all learn from Judy brown is that if you complain about everyone and everything, then no one will know when to take what you say seriously, and that is a very bad thing when people could die.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Absolutely. See for yourself:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

LPorter101 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I hated how they came out and trashed the Klebold's publically in 2004 after they fell out with them.

They did?

They are angry, but some of the points they are making are legit:
1) Klebolds want to have evidence destroyed, including Dylan's writings.
2) They were not fully cooperating with 3rd party psychologist etc (probably due to their attoreny's advice, but still)
3) They tend to frame columbine as a "natural disaster" and something that just happened, Susan later on stressed the suicide part, but they never acknowledged the "murder" part putting the blame squarely on Dylan. I can entirely understand why framing this as a "hurricane and a rain of fire” can piss people off.

Sorry about the mega quite confusion - it was just aimed at the part by PaintItBlack in reference to the comments about Judy calling the cops to get Eric in trouble.

Some of the calls may appear 'petty' but if they are backed up by threats to kill my son I know I'd be trying to get something done about a clearly troubled boy.

I myself can't blame the Klebold's for much of anything they've done considering the agony that they were in.
The Harris' family either. But for me the issue is that even if the Browns had legitimate complaints about the Klebold's they still went on national TV and trashed them.
Even if I had fallen out with friends in a situation like that, I could not bring myself to do that, knowing the Hell they were living through.
That is really what I object to. The way they went on TV and the things they said.
Its must be a kick in the teeth for someone to say so publically that they were ashamed of ever being your friend.

Sabratha wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Absolutely. See for yourself:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

LPorter101 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I hated how they came out and trashed the Klebold's publically in 2004 after they fell out with them.

They did?

They are angry, but some of the points they are making are legit:
1) Klebolds want to have evidence destroyed, including Dylan's writings.
2) They were not fully cooperating with 3rd party psychologist etc (probably due to their attoreny's advice, but still)
3) They tend to frame columbine as a "natural disaster" and something that just happened, Susan later on stressed the suicide part, but they never acknowledged the "murder" part putting the blame squarely on Dylan. I can entirely understand why framing this as a "hurricane and a rain of fire” can piss people off.

I cannot deny that you have a point. She did have a right to be concerned about the threats against her son.
I suppose that I just don't care for some of the ways she tried to go about doing something about it.
I still think I have a valid point in that calling the police on Eric so many times made him feel harassed and therefore angrier at the family.
I also think some of her methods were counterproductive in calling the police about the magazine and basically trashing Eric to his dad when she talked to him. Parents are naturally defensive of their kids and if she had taken a softer approach maybe Wayne would have been more willing to listen and act on her concerns.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

Sorry about the mega quite confusion - it was just aimed at the part by PaintItBlack in reference to the comments about Judy calling the cops to get Eric in trouble.

Some of the calls may appear 'petty' but if they are backed up by threats to kill my son I know I'd be trying to get something done about a clearly troubled boy.

Yep, I take the point about calling in relation to the magazine Eric bought - I guess it depends on what order the calls were made?

If the first call she made to the police was cause she saw Eric buying a magazine, then yes, I'd be inclined to agree that is extremely harsh.

If the first call was about death threats, vandalism etc then I'd not blame her. Again, if a kid had threatened to murder my son and nothing had been done about it then I saw him buying a gun magazine, I'd probably freak out a bit too!

I don't think we can blame Judy too much for trashing Eric to Wayne - death threats & vandalism need to be taken seriously. If the police weren't prepared to do anything then maybe she just saw Wayne as the last chance to sort Eric out? We know Wayne had concerns about Eric (ie his log he kept). I'm not blaming Wayne here by the way, I just think Judy was justified in her what could be described as 'frantic' efforts for some authority figure (cops, parents or whoever) to try and get Eric to sort himself out.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I argree that she should have made the complaints about the death threats, but that she did it in the wrong way. I think that if she made those complaints to Wayne after complianing about a lot of silly things he may of been thinking what now. It may have been better for her to frame it as a desire to see Eric get help rather than just see him punished. That aproach may have gotten Wayne on her side instead of thinking that she only wants to get his son in trouble.

Another Big Question:


Could the boys have been "rehabilitated" if someone had intervened soon enough to stop NBK?

fantasykingdom985 wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I argree that she should have made the complaints about the death threats, but that she did it in the wrong way. I think that if she made those complaints to Wayne after complianing about a lot of silly things he may of been thinking what now. It may have been better for her to frame it as a desire to see Eric get help rather than just see him punished. That aproach may have gotten Wayne on her side instead of thinking that she only wants to get his son in trouble.

Again, re. the death threats - I would bypass the father and go straight to the cops. I don't think Judy was too familiar with Wayne & Kathy like she was with Sue and Tom so for all she knew Eric may have picked up his 'disruptive' side from his folks?

Cops were absolutely the right (yet wrong with how they dealt with it!) people to contact in my opinion.

I believe so.
Absolutely.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Another Big Question:


Could the boys have been "rehabilitated" if someone had intervened soon enough to stop NBK?

I don't remember the exact order of the calls but I do know that the call about the gun magazine was after she had already called the police about Eric a few times and hadn't gotten the results they wanted.
I guess what's always irked me about it was the buying of the magazine was a perfectly legal act
Eric had an interest in guns long before he ever started planning the shootings so the buying of the magazine may have been unrelated to anything from both that as I believe that was before the start of the planning of the shooting.

My point about her approach to Wayne is that she came on very angrily saying bad things about Eric to Wayne and parents are protective about their kids and I think her approach made Wayne defensive of his son.
After all Eric had not done anything that bad at that point.
If she had taken a different approach Wayne might have been more receptive.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

Yep, I take the point about calling in relation to the magazine Eric bought - I guess it depends on what order the calls were made?

If the first call she made to the police was cause she saw Eric buying a magazine, then yes, I'd be inclined to agree that is extremely harsh.

If the first call was about death threats, vandalism etc then I'd not blame her. Again, if a kid had threatened to murder my son and nothing had been done about it then I saw him buying a gun magazine, I'd probably freak out a bit too!

I don't think we can blame Judy too much for trashing Eric to Wayne - death threats & vandalism need to be taken seriously. If the police weren't prepared to do anything then maybe she just saw Wayne as the last chance to sort Eric out? We know Wayne had concerns about Eric (ie his log he kept). I'm not blaming Wayne here by the way, I just think Judy was justified in her what could be described as 'frantic' efforts for some authority figure (cops, parents or whoever) to try and get Eric to sort himself out.

This is exactly what I was trying to say fantasykingdom. Thank you for putting it better than I could.

fantasykingdom985 wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I argree that she should have made the complaints about the death threats, but that she did it in the wrong way. I think that if she made those complaints to Wayne after complianing about a lot of silly things he may of been thinking what now. It may have been better for her to frame it as a desire to see Eric get help rather than just see him punished. That aproach may have gotten Wayne on her side instead of thinking that she only wants to get his son in trouble.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Another Big Question:


Could the boys have been "rehabilitated" if someone had intervened soon enough to stop NBK?

Dylan - Very possible Eric - Absolutely not Eric's beef wasn't only with the school but with society as a whole.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you said it prety well yourself.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Another Big Question:


Could the boys have been "rehabilitated" if someone had intervened soon enough to stop NBK?

I don't know, this is something I haven't really thought about. Because it seems to me that, in light of what we know-that they did carry through with it- that they were always capable of this type of thing. I find myself having a hard time believing someone who can do this can be rehabilitated.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I would like to think they could have been, but I doubt it.

Big question here: how much worse do you think NBK would have been if they didn't do a halfa**ed selction of their guns or their bombs?

fantasykingdom985 wrote:

Big question here: how much worse do you think NBK would have been if they didn't do a halfa**ed selction of their guns or their bombs?

Good questions. If the bombs worked they probably would never have entered the school...

If they had better weapons they may have been able to do more damage against the cops. They definitely would've killed more people during the attack inside the school.

Forex, how did Stephanie Munson get shot in the ankle? Was Dylan aiming for her feet, trying not to mortally hurt anyone, or was it his crappy gun?

PaintItBlack wrote:

I believe so.
Absolutely.

Do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts on how that process might play out?

Gustopoet2 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I believe so.
Absolutely.

Do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts on how that process might play out?

I think it would have been a longshot and would have requierd drastic measures like intenseive shock theorpy. People who have plans like they had don't get better with only talk and meds.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

fantasykingdom985 wrote:

Big question here: how much worse do you think NBK would have been if they didn't do a halfa**ed selction of their guns or their bombs?

Good questions. If the bombs worked they probably would never have entered the school...

If they had better weapons they may have been able to do more damage against the cops. They definitely would've killed more people during the attack inside the school.

Forex, how did Stephanie Munson get shot in the ankle? Was Dylan aiming for her feet, trying not to mortally hurt anyone, or was it his crappy gun?

People like to say that E&D were genius masterminds, but while what they did was awful the truth was they were impulsive and didn't put in the level of planing and reasherch you would expect from genius masterminds.

fantasykingdom985 wrote:

People like to say that E&D were genius masterminds, but while what they did was awful the truth was they were impulsive and didn't put in the level of planing and reasherch you would expect from genius masterminds.

You raise a good point. Keep in mind though that even professional strategists and engineers at NASA etc commonly experience system failures. As von Moltke once famously said "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.”

They might have done better with some of the equipment. However, they did train themselves, arm themselves, and kept their nerve long enough to carry out the improvised attack without being captured.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

fantasykingdom985 wrote:

People like to say that E&D were genius masterminds, but while what they did was awful the truth was they were impulsive and didn't put in the level of planing and reasherch you would expect from genius masterminds.

You raise a good point. Keep in mind though that even professional strategists and engineers at NASA etc commonly experience system failures. As von Moltke once famously said "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.”

They might have done better with some of the equipment. However, they did train themselves, arm themselves, and kept their nerve long enough to carry out the improvised attack without being captured.
 

I think where they failed is that they put their faith in a type of bomb that is known to not be very reliable, and did not have a well devolped plan b. I think that had they took their time and done their research, they would have chosen better guns incase the bombs failed or they would have scrapped the bombs altogether, and concentrated on making NBK a shooting. If I were grading how they did on NBK I would give them a B- for not being better prepared.

fantasykingdom985 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I believe so.
Absolutely.

Do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts on how that process might play out?

I think it would have been a longshot and would have requierd drastic measures like intenseive shock theorpy. People who have plans like they had don't get better with only talk and meds.

No, talk therapy rarely works anyway and meds wouldn't have done much good either. The anti-depressants didn't work for Eric, what he needed was some kind of mood stabilizer but that would have just turned him into a zombie (they hated zombies). Dylan would have needed some kind of anti-psychotic, again those are mostly just used to calm them down, putting them in a semi-vegetative state, so we don't have to deal with them.

But really, it's a damn good possibility those boys would have ended up in prison, and that would have made them infinitely worse.

Question:

Would either of them have been capable of doing this on there own? How much did they influence and reinforce each others hatred?

aubre wrote:

Question:

Would either of them have been capable of doing this on there own? How much did they influence and reinforce each others hatred?

That is a good question. I'd have to say "no," but I could be persuaded to change my mind.

They were lost in a fantasy world, so there was no question of them having any kind of reliable bomb or equipment.

Remember, Eric once had the idea of setting off a bomb on the generator in order to electrocute the school. We are not talking about someone with a steady grasp on reality.

I think what we ended up seeing on 4/20 was an elaborate adolescent revenge fantasy being played out. With as much time as they had to plan, they could have created a fertilizer bomb (or series of fertilizer bombs) and truly leveled the school. Functional timers and wireless detonators were possible in 1999, and especially possible for two reasonably affluent high school students with their own jobs. We know they mentioned going to Radio Shack to get components for one of the timers as well. I tend to agree that they were more interested in being angry than carrying out an attack.

I also think they were in a fantasy world of their own creation. Most of their arsenal is straight out of the current video games from the era. Pipe bombs were in either Duke Nukem or Quake, from what I remember. Even Harris' shotgun is named after the one in DOOM.

Things like demolitions, weapons and tactics and timers were only passing thoughts. They were more concerned with whipping each other up into a frenzy and then acting on it.

lasttrain wrote:

Remember, Eric once had the idea of setting off a bomb on the generator in order to electrocute the school.

Have a source for this?

I think it was a journal entry.

radaddio wrote:

I think it was a journal entry.

Got the quote?

Sane One wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Another Big Question:


Could the boys have been "rehabilitated" if someone had intervened soon enough to stop NBK?

Dylan - Very possible  Eric - Absolutely not    Eric's beef wasn't only with the school but with society as a whole.

But Dylan wasn't? It's clear in his journal that Dylan couldn't stand society. The way it operated and its unjust system for people who were different than the majority. For example the time he was caught scratching something into the freshman's locker and he got called down to the office. The Dean I think it was, talked to him and said that Dylan knew how everything worked in life, and also said that he shouldn't of known all the things he did at such a young age. The school was a big part of his hate but society shaped the school, and he knew that. I don't believe Dylan somehow could've been rehabilitated but not Eric.

Perhaps it better to argue "function in society" rather than "rehabilitated". There are plenty of folks who test high on the psychopath tests, but still live normal lives. Also, there are a lot of pissed off smart teenagers having a hard time in the social pressures of school. I would imagine that being smarter would lead you to be more nihilistic in that circumstance, since you can see everything for the BS that it is.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

radaddio wrote:

I think it was a journal entry.

Got the quote?

Taken from "No Easy Answers"

"Chris Morris, a member of the Trench Coat Mafia who still worked with Eric and Dylan at Blackjack Pizza, told police that Eric had joked about killing jocks and suggested placing bombs on the generators as a way to blow up the school. However, it had seemed like joking around, Morris said"

I think this might have been one of those times when he was testing the waters for additional participants.

radaddio wrote:

Perhaps it better to argue "function in society" rather than "rehabilitated". There are plenty of folks who test high on the psychopath tests, but still live normal lives. Also, there are a lot of pissed off smart teenagers having a hard time in the social pressures of school. I would imagine that being smarter would lead you to be more nihilistic in that circumstance, since you can see everything for the BS that it is.

I agree. Many think that really only Dylan wanted the suicide but I think it was a big part of the whole mission for Eric too. Might've been more nervous about it and not as accepting of it as Dylan was but I personally don't think he wanted to end that day alive, even if the bombs worked. Not even just for the simple fear of being imprisoned either.

radaddio wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

radaddio wrote:

I think it was a journal entry.

Got the quote?

Taken from "No Easy Answers"

"Chris Morris, a member of the Trench Coat Mafia who still worked with Eric and Dylan at Blackjack Pizza, told police that Eric had joked about killing jocks and suggested placing bombs on the generators as a way to blow up the school. However, it had seemed like joking around, Morris said"

I think this might have been one of those times when he was testing the waters for additional participants.

Hey Radaddio, I'm familiar with that quote but didn't Lasttrain say Eric though blowing up the generators would electrocute the school.

"Eric once had the idea of setting off a bomb on the generator in order to electrocute the school."

I thought this was a bit of a mischaracterization. I don't think Eric Harris was that stupid or delusional, personally.

Agree that he tried to recruit Chris Morris.

Doomsayer wrote:

I agree. Many think that really only Dylan wanted the suicide but I think it was a big part of the whole mission for Eric too. Might've been more nervous about it and not as accepting of it as Dylan was but I personally don't think he wanted to end that day alive, even if the bombs worked. Not even just for the simple fear of being imprisoned either.

Good point. I think Eric was really hoping and expecting to be killed by cops. I agree that he was just as suicidal as Dylan -- and I'd add that Dylan was as much, if not more, homicidal as Eric.

Doomsayer wrote:

But Dylan wasn't? It's clear in his journal that Dylan couldn't stand society. The way it operated and its unjust system for people who were different than the majority. For example the time he was caught scratching something into the freshman's locker and he got called down to the office. The Dean I think it was, talked to him and said that Dylan knew how everything worked in life, and also said that he shouldn't of known all the things he did at such a young age. The school was a big part of his hate but society shaped the school, and he knew that. I don't believe Dylan somehow could've been rehabilitated but not Eric.

Dylan was deeply alienated from society. His perspective on humanity is elitist and misanthropic. He very closely resembles poets such as Rimbaud or Plath in his detesting of the facade of human society and its hypocrisy. This perspective was part of Dylan's psyche; I think that conditions exacerbated his alienation and helped to construct the "VoDkA" persona but I don't think any of the institutions of society as we now have them could have done much at all to change Dylan's PoV. It was part of his soul. Best case scenario: he went into art instead of guns -- he would probably still have died young from drinking or suicide or both.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Doomsayer wrote:

I agree. Many think that really only Dylan wanted the suicide but I think it was a big part of the whole mission for Eric too. Might've been more nervous about it and not as accepting of it as Dylan was but I personally don't think he wanted to end that day alive, even if the bombs worked. Not even just for the simple fear of being imprisoned either.

Good point. I think Eric was really hoping and expecting to be killed by cops. I agree that he was just as suicidal as Dylan -- and I'd add that Dylan was as much, if not more, homicidal as Eric.

Yeah and maybe he made a mental note to just do it himself if he lost the nerve to get shot by cops. Suicide was always part of the territory, and I think NBK was a win win for him because of it. Not only did he get to finally act on his anger and get the revenge he desired so much, but he also didn't have to live in a life he felt like he didn't belong to. And yeah I agree lot of people forget that Dylan wrote about going on any kind of murderous rampage before Eric ever did. Eric started his journal only after NBK became a thing between him and Dylan, which is why I think a lot of his writings is inspired by that, unlike Dylan whose writings were personal to him. Eric knew people were going to see his journal, and he knew people would stand still for everything he wrote. Not that he didn't mean a lot of the things he wrote, I'm certain he did but I don't think that was 100% who Eric was, I think there was a lot more to him.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Doomsayer wrote:

But Dylan wasn't? It's clear in his journal that Dylan couldn't stand society. The way it operated and its unjust system for people who were different than the majority. For example the time he was caught scratching something into the freshman's locker and he got called down to the office. The Dean I think it was, talked to him and said that Dylan knew how everything worked in life, and also said that he shouldn't of known all the things he did at such a young age. The school was a big part of his hate but society shaped the school, and he knew that. I don't believe Dylan somehow could've been rehabilitated but not Eric.

Dylan was deeply alienated from society. His perspective on humanity is elitist and misanthropic. He very closely resembles poets such as Rimbaud or Plath in his detesting of the facade of human society and its hypocrisy. This perspective was part of Dylan's psyche; I think that conditions exacerbated his alienation and helped to construct the "VoDkA" persona but I don't think any of the institutions of society as we now have them could have done much at all to change Dylan's PoV. It was part of his soul. Best case scenario: he went into art instead of guns -- he would probably still have died young from drinking or suicide or both.

Yeah I agree, his hatred went deeper than the school, as was the case with Eric. There wasn't just one who hated everything while the other only hated the school, both of them knew that Columbine was derived from society itself. They were smarter than to just simply think that their school was different than everything else in the outside world. It was all connected, and they didn't want to be apart of such a corrupt and flawed environment. I can respect that they did this, and didn't feed into the system that they hated by becoming zombies, as Dylan would put it. As Columbine High School arose from society, Reb and VoDkA arose from Columbine.

Doomsayer wrote:

Yeah I agree, his hatred went deeper than the school, as was the case with Eric. There wasn't just one who hated everything while the other only hated the school, both of them knew that Columbine was derived from society itself. They were smarter than to just simply think that their school was different than everything else in the outside world. It was all connected, and they didn't want to be apart of such a corrupt and flawed environment. I can respect that they did this, and didn't feed into the system that they hated by becoming zombies, as Dylan would put it. As Columbine High School arose from society, Reb and VoDkA arose from Columbine.

Very well said.

Doomsayer wrote:

radaddio wrote:

Perhaps it better to argue "function in society" rather than "rehabilitated". There are plenty of folks who test high on the psychopath tests, but still live normal lives. Also, there are a lot of pissed off smart teenagers having a hard time in the social pressures of school. I would imagine that being smarter would lead you to be more nihilistic in that circumstance, since you can see everything for the BS that it is.

I agree. Many think that really only Dylan wanted the suicide but I think it was a big part of the whole mission for Eric too. Might've been more nervous about it and not as accepting of it as Dylan was but I personally don't think he wanted to end that day alive, even if the bombs worked. Not even just for the simple fear of being imprisoned either.

I think they were both nervous.

Eric said he had to "turn of his emotions" and become a "stone cold killer". Even before the attack on their last video he was taking his sweet ass time to say "Goodbye" to everyone and *eventually* said it after a pause. It must have been a while because Dylan was snapping his fingers at Eric telling him to get the hell on with it. Eric cried on the tapes too.

Also, I am almost positive that Dylan was the one who asked Eric upon entering the library, "You still with me? We're still going to do this right?" Dylan believed no matter what was going to happen he was going to die that day. You clearly hear him in the 911 call even before coming into the library that he was having a blast. He even said, "TODAY IS THE DAY I DIE!" Eric might have been a little pissed off that his big bad bombs completely failed (and were always bound to fail no matter what. These kids were in Fantasy land).

The biggest question did Dylan and Eric take group showers???????

Gustopoet2 wrote:

aubre wrote:

Question:

Would either of them have been capable of doing this on there own? How much did they influence and reinforce each others hatred?

That is a good question. I'd have to say "no," but I could be persuaded to change my mind.

I think it's at least possible. What seems most relevant to this kind of question would be: who came up with the idea first? If it was Eric, than yes I think he would have eventually pulled something like this off, with or without Dylan. If it was Dylan who mentioned it first then I'm not so sure.

James411 wrote:

The biggest question did Dylan and Eric take group showers???????

what are you insinuating .

aubre wrote:

What seems most relevant to this kind of question would be: who came up with the idea first? If it was Eric, than yes I think he would have eventually pulled something like this off, with or without Dylan. If it was Dylan who mentioned it first then I'm not so sure.

Dylan wrote about in his journal about going on a shooting spree before he and Eric started plotting together. I think you're right that Dylan would probably not have been able to follow through on an attack by himself.