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 Eric, Dylan and Bullying

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PostSubject: Eric, Dylan and Bullying   Eric, Dylan and Bullying Icon_minitimeFri Apr 05, 2013 2:02 pm

On the last forum there was alot of discussion on the amount of bullying Eric and Dylan recieved. And how bullying contributed to the attack. Would you consider bullying to be a primary factor or a secondary factor and why?
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PostSubject: Re: Eric, Dylan and Bullying   Eric, Dylan and Bullying Icon_minitimeFri Apr 05, 2013 3:11 pm

Interesting question, and it seems people are always on one side of the fence or the other. However, the answer is never that black-and-white. The killers contradict themselves many times on this subject during the shooting itself.

It's important to remember that it's entirely possible that both Eric and Dylan didn't fully comprehend why they did NBK.

I think a better question to ask would be this: if the killers were popular would NBK still have happened?

Probably not. However, it isn't fair to put the entire blame on bullying. LOTS of kids are bullied and were bullied. But with Eric and Dylan it wasn't just bullying. Brooks described them as being as the "losers of the losers." Even if they weren't being bullied, they were being completely ignored or simply shunned.

Their hatred was for the whole school for not accepting them, this is clear in their writings.

What I'm trying to say is bullying was just one of their many quarrels with the school. They had little friends, virtually no female attention, they were misunderstood, and both found little in life that truly made them happy. They were outcasts by all definitions of the word (fuck you Dave Cullen).

As much as they hated jocks and popular kids they wanted nothing more than to be just that.

That being said, they didn't target their bullies specifically on NBK, this is the argument for many that bullying wasn't a primary factor. I've addressed this above: they were after the whole school.

BUT:

Both make it very clear in their notebooks and in their actions that day that if they had run across any of their tormentors they WOULD have killed them. From Dylan making statements like, "this is for all the shit you've given us for the last four years" to Eric writing in his notebook, "If I don't like you or I don't like what you want me to do, you die" it's clear that bullying did play some part in their motivation. There are hundreds of others as well.

I think it was more of a motivating factor for Dylan than Eric however. Look at their shirt choices: Wrath and Natural Selection. Eric's implies hatred towards society and a feelings of grandeur and superiority -- this is what we would expect of Eric. Dylan's implies revenge with a violent action by the very definition of the word.

So it's completely unfair to say bullying wasn't a motivating factor -- and sure there were others as well. But if it wasn't a hatred toward the school that led them to this then why didn't they choose somewhere else? Or why didn't they go ahead with their plan and rig the whole city with explosives? Why the quotes from the killers on the day of the shooting that express anger at the school and at jocks?

Bullying was a primary factor -- but it wasn't the only one.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric, Dylan and Bullying   Eric, Dylan and Bullying Icon_minitimeFri Apr 05, 2013 3:33 pm

I completely agree but I think revenge was a really big motivating factor for Eric as well. And I liked the part about Dave Cullen. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Eric, Dylan and Bullying   Eric, Dylan and Bullying Icon_minitimeFri Apr 05, 2013 3:43 pm

MarmaladeSkies wrote:
Interesting question, and it seems people are always on one side of the fence or the other. However, the answer is never that black-and-white. The killers contradict themselves many times on this subject during the shooting itself.

It's important to remember that it's entirely possible that both Eric and Dylan didn't fully comprehend why they did NBK.

I think a better question to ask would be this: if the killers were popular would NBK still have happened?

Probably not. However, it isn't fair to put the entire blame on bullying. LOTS of kids are bullied and were bullied. But with Eric and Dylan it wasn't just bullying. Brooks described them as being as the "losers of the losers." Even if they weren't being bullied, they were being completely ignored or simply shunned.

Their hatred was for the whole school for not accepting them, this is clear in their writings.

What I'm trying to say is bullying was just one of their many quarrels with the school. They had little friends, virtually no female attention, they were misunderstood, and both found little in life that truly made them happy. They were outcasts by all definitions of the word (fuck you Dave Cullen).

As much as they hated jocks and popular kids they wanted nothing more than to be just that.

That being said, they didn't target their bullies specifically on NBK, this is the argument for many that bullying wasn't a primary factor. I've addressed this above: they were after the whole school.

BUT:

Both make it very clear in their notebooks and in their actions that day that if they had run across any of their tormentors they WOULD have killed them. From Dylan making statements like, "this is for all the shit you've given us for the last four years" to Eric writing in his notebook, "If I don't like you or I don't like what you want me to do, you die" it's clear that bullying did play some part in their motivation. There are hundreds of others as well.

I think it was more of a motivating factor for Dylan than Eric however. Look at their shirt choices: Wrath and Natural Selection. Eric's implies hatred towards society and a feelings of grandeur and superiority -- this is what we would expect of Eric. Dylan's implies revenge with a violent action by the very definition of the word.

So it's completely unfair to say bullying wasn't a motivating factor -- and sure there were others as well. But if it wasn't a hatred toward the school that led them to this then why didn't they choose somewhere else? Or why didn't they go ahead with their plan and rig the whole city with explosives? Why the quotes from the killers on the day of the shooting that express anger at the school and at jocks?

Bullying was a primary factor -- but it wasn't the only one.

Great post! I completely agree! Couldn´t have explained it better myself

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PostSubject: Re: Eric, Dylan and Bullying   Eric, Dylan and Bullying Icon_minitimeFri Apr 05, 2013 7:04 pm

I'm tired of people feeling sorry for those two.







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PostSubject: Re: Eric, Dylan and Bullying   Eric, Dylan and Bullying Icon_minitimeFri Jan 31, 2020 5:58 pm

I dont think bullying was a reason, but it's possible that they may have been bullied and that bullying may have affected them in some shape or form. Dylan was depressed and sometimes depression is linked to bullying. I dont think they are entirely mutually exclusive. As for psychopaths IDK how they deal with bullying.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric, Dylan and Bullying   Eric, Dylan and Bullying Icon_minitimeFri Jan 31, 2020 6:48 pm

MarmaladeSkies wrote:
Interesting question, and it seems people are always on one side of the fence or the other. However, the answer is never that black-and-white. The killers contradict themselves many times on this subject during the shooting itself.

It's important to remember that it's entirely possible that both Eric and Dylan didn't fully comprehend why they did NBK.

I think a better question to ask would be this: if the killers were popular would NBK still have happened?

Probably not. However, it isn't fair to put the entire blame on bullying. LOTS of kids are bullied and were bullied. But with Eric and Dylan it wasn't just bullying. Brooks described them as being as the "losers of the losers." Even if they weren't being bullied, they were being completely ignored or simply shunned.

Their hatred was for the whole school for not accepting them, this is clear in their writings.

What I'm trying to say is bullying was just one of their many quarrels with the school. They had little friends, virtually no female attention, they were misunderstood, and both found little in life that truly made them happy. They were outcasts by all definitions of the word (fuck you Dave Cullen).

As much as they hated jocks and popular kids they wanted nothing more than to be just that.

That being said, they didn't target their bullies specifically on NBK, this is the argument for many that bullying wasn't a primary factor. I've addressed this above: they were after the whole school.

BUT:

Both make it very clear in their notebooks and in their actions that day that if they had run across any of their tormentors they WOULD have killed them. From Dylan making statements like, "this is for all the shit you've given us for the last four years" to Eric writing in his notebook, "If I don't like you or I don't like what you want me to do, you die" it's clear that bullying did play some part in their motivation. There are hundreds of others as well.

I think it was more of a motivating factor for Dylan than Eric however. Look at their shirt choices: Wrath and Natural Selection. Eric's implies hatred towards society and a feelings of grandeur and superiority -- this is what we would expect of Eric. Dylan's implies revenge with a violent action by the very definition of the word.

So it's completely unfair to say bullying wasn't a motivating factor -- and sure there were others as well. But if it wasn't a hatred toward the school that led them to this then why didn't they choose somewhere else? Or why didn't they go ahead with their plan and rig the whole city with explosives? Why the quotes from the killers on the day of the shooting that express anger at the school and at jocks?

Bullying was a primary factor -- but it wasn't the only one.

Ive seen statements that contradicts Brooks description that they were the lowest of the low. Some people argue that they were well liked by many. The possible explanations Ive seen so far is

- failure to accomplish intimate relationships. Both didnt really succeed as far as relationships goes. Dylan seemed to have a crush on a girl and he was depressed about that. He seems to have expressed jealousy towards the jocks and their lifestyle.

- Paranoia on the part of Dylan. Langmann argues that Dylan was delusional and paranoid.

Antisocial personality disorder- Eric Harris was later diagnosed as a psychopath. I dont think this is an adequate explanation, given that most psychopaths dont commit murder. But its a factor, nevertheless. Langmann also argues that Dylan was a micro- psychopath. However he does place Dylan in the schizoid 'category'.

- Suicide. Dylan wanted to commit suicide, and NBK was the ticket he needed.

Environment: In what way did the environment at Columbine HS form their Daily lives? Some accounts suggested that they were bullied. There are also accounts that they bullied other students and that they would get into fights with people. Than there are accounts which suggests that they were well liked by many, hated by others etc. Its possible that this may may have had an impact in one way or another of course. With that being said, I think that their run in with authority pretty much set the standard for how things were going further from there

- when they stole equipment from a van and they had to go through a division programme

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PostSubject: Re: Eric, Dylan and Bullying   Eric, Dylan and Bullying Icon_minitimeFri Jan 31, 2020 10:30 pm

After years and years of research the reason for the tragedy can be summed up in one word: revenge.

Factors that contributed to the tragedy that was just a “perfect storm” of circumstances (in no particular order):

1. Bullying (being the bullies)
2. Bullying (being bullied themselves)
3. Mental illness
4. Anger
5. Culture of Columbine High School
6. Feelings of being defenseless/helpless against perceived slights
7. Perceived feelings of social/peer rejection
8. Access to firearms
9. Feelings of loneliness, hopelessness, self-hatred, and low/no self-worth
10. No vision of future


Put all of these things together, then consider the coincidence/likelihood of having Eric and Dylan ever meeting, it truly was a perfect storm.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric, Dylan and Bullying   Eric, Dylan and Bullying Icon_minitimeSat Feb 01, 2020 3:39 pm

I think bullying is kind of an easy answer to many, because it makes sense to us. I dont necessarily think that it has to make much sense for the vast majority of people for it to make sense in their own mind. Dylan was planning on going to college and had a bright future. But when you are severely depressed, you usually just want the pain and suffering to end. They dont want to die. They just want the pain to go away. Also, from the research Ive done, I dont think they were really that unpopular as they were made out to be. Heres one example:
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'A key aspect of Klebold's mental illness was severe depression and suicidal thoughts, both commonly found in people with schizoptypal personality disorder given their general sense of worthlessness and social isolation. The truth of the matter is that Dylan was a talented and kind person who was genuinely liked by peers, and it is very possible, indeed likely, that if he had gotten the help he needed he could have grown into a contented adult'

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