Just a theory: Cleaning Columbine

Just say Eric was a psychopath. Okay.. This is what I gathered from what happened. They made a list of people they wanted to kill but they really wanted to kill the whole school because they put bombs all over the cafeteria. I know certain people here don't like Dave Cullen or his book but the truth about it is.  Eric was just a psychopath and Dylan just went along with it because he was depressed and easily led. Maybe that's why it happened, Eric was a psychopath, they kill people at random all the time.  There is a guy on you tube and he makes videos called cleaning columbine who tried to say Dylan was the man behind it all. For a start, if they knew they were going to kill themselves at the end. Why not get in on the action? Instead of shooting were Eric was shooting, he wants his name connected to the killings. Like fucking kill someone. Not that I'm condoning murdering someone but that's the answer that is the most logical with me. Eric was a psycho, Dylan was probably a sociopath, suicidal as well and if the FBI are saying that Dylan was led into it maybe he was. Every group has an alpha male or female.

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One last thing: Before someone gets with their conspiracy theory. If the FBI are lying and Dylan was the one in charge. Why? Eric's father was a war hero, wouldn't they put all the blame and Dylan's family. Dylan's parents were pacifist artist? Don't the FBI hate hippies? Also, Eric's father was in the army maybe temper and violence ran in his family. I'm not saying he was abused, it could be in his genes.

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Sorry for the grammar, I am bored and just had a thought. Last note: The angry gene: I remember watching a documentary when I was a kid about young child who beat another child in the head causing brain damage. They talked about anger could run in families.

I don't think there actually was a leader per se because, allegedly, from the basement tapes' transcripts, they both acted as two leaders, as two soldiers fighting the fight, not to mention how each of the boys wanted to 'outdo' the other one with their trash talk, as if they competed who's gonna impress more, who's gonna seem more bad-ass. As they said, they were both 'godlike', it's not like Eric said, in the basement tapes, "you know what, I'm gonna stick that guy's head on my knife" and then Dylan replied "you're right! I'll do that as well!" It was probably followed by "Yeah man, and I'll fucking stick a pipebomb in someone's mouth and watch that pathetic human explode!!" Also, people who watched the BT, said Eric was more apologetic in some videos and Dylan just didn't care, was cold and couldn't wait til the D-day. Even Sue said, if I'm not mistaken, that she didn't raise that 'monster' in the basement tapes.

They were both equally behind it, Dylan didn't just go along with it. Dylan probably mentioned it to Eric first too, Dylan did write about getting a gun and going on a killing spree back in '97. Eric probably did hate the world and humanity in '97 as well, but I think it was Dylan who really brought the idea to the table.

Remember that interview Chris Morris gave? "I think Dylan once said, wouldn't it be fun to shoot at the school from the football field?" That's probably what happened with Eric too, Dylan prolly said the same thing or something like that and Eric took it seriously and it all unraveled from that point on. From casual talk, to fantasies, to making their fantasies real in video games, to actually getting the guns, to trying out the guns and finally doing it in real life.

As for being psychopaths or sociopaths, what I think is, at 17 and 18, you just aren't developed completely as a person, mentally, physically, in almost any way... Just take yourself for instance, how much you've changed, grown, changed your ideas, beliefs etc. You definitely know right from wrong better now than you were 17. The fact they couldn't 'wait it out' and grow out of this crazy idea certainly suggests problems, it's just hard to pinpoint what was wrong, as we didn't know them personally, never talked to them etc... I firmly believe, if they got counseling and help, they'd grow out of it. Just think about how many ideas we had when were 10, 15 or even 18 and now that we've grown out of them we see them as crazy, silly etc... It was just a mixture of effects and happenings that made the massacre possible, sadly...

it wasn´t dylan who said this to chris morris.it was eric harris who said this.

3:19 "I think Dylan on one occasion did say -wouldn't it be kinda fun to sit on the soccer field and shoot at the school?"


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Okay.. First off, Dylan did the most trash talk during the killings but the whole thing was over compensation because Dylan didn't shoot that many bullets. Infact Eric doubled how many bullets Dylan had shot.

Dylan --
9mm rounds fired:
outside the school: 3, inside the school: 31, library: 21
(total 55)
Shotgun rounds fired:
outside the school: 2, inside the school: 4, library: 6
(total 12)
Total rounds fired: 67

Eric --
9mm rounds fired:
outside the school: 47, inside the school: 36, library: 13
(total 96)
Shotgun rounds fired:
inside the school: 4, Library: 21
(total 25)
Total rounds fired: 121

[quote="snacks"]Okay.. First off, Dylan did the most trash talk during the killings but the whole thing was over compensation because Dylan didn't shoot that many bullets. Infact Eric doubled how many bullets Dylan had shot.

Dylan --
9mm rounds fired:
outside the school: 3, inside the school: 31, library: 21
(total 55)
Shotgun rounds fired:
outside the school: 2, inside the school: 4, library: 6
(total 12)
Total rounds fired: 67

Eric --
9mm rounds fired:
outside the school: 47, inside the school: 36, library: 13
(total 96)
Shotgun rounds fired:
inside the school: 4, Library: 21
(total 25)
Total rounds fired: 121

Also the question of can someone of 17 or 18 be psychopaths? Yeah. It is actually something your born with.

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"  Researchers at the University of New South Wales have found that some children as young as three years old display callous-unemotional traits (CU traits), which are linked to psychopathy. Children with these traits didn’t react strongly like other children in the study to images of people in distress, such as a child crying, and also struggled to recognize changing facial expressions."

Believe or not, not all psychopaths are violent. Actually one in every 100 is supposed to be a psychopath so you can literally be walking down the street and bump into a psychopath and not even know it.

snacks wrote:

Okay.. First off, Dylan did the most trash talk during the killings but the whole thing was over compensation because Dylan didn't shoot that many bullets.

All true, but its not as straightforward. Firts of all, Dylan had a 2-round "crack to open and reload" shotgun, while Eric had a classic pump action. So in shotguns alone, Eric had a much more rapid-firing weapon.

Secondly, Dylan's TEC-9 huge 50-round clip malfunctioned and Dylan was forced to leave it outside. From wahtr I gathered, it wa steh first clip he planned to use outside and failed to fire even 1 shot. So that's 50 less round for hium to fire, not to mention lost time while fiddling with the clip, trying to make it work, then having to load a different clip.

So there were certainly more than just psychological reasons for Dylan to have fired less shots.

I would tend to agree that Dylan didn't seem to be as centered on killing as Eric was. Still, this did not stop Dylan from shooting people point blank in the head. He too certainly wanted to kill, though perhaps it was a less pressing priority form him than it was for Eric.

I'm not trying to make Dylan out to be an angel. He could of stopped it at numerous occasions and didn't. But its basic psychology every group has a leader. Eric's diaries were far more violent than Dylan's. Eric took the most shots, he was clearly the instigator. Even if Dylan's gun did stall or break. By the way if his gun didn't stall "would more people have died?" God knows. It's an hypothesis.

snacks wrote:

I'm not trying to make Dylan out to be an angel. He could of stopped it at numerous occasions and didn't. But its basic psychology every group has a leader. Eric's diaries were far more violent than Dylan's. Eric took the most shots, he was clearly the instigator.

2 people are not a group - not a group in the psychological sense that is. A two person dynamic is very different from that of 3 persons or larger groups.

I don't think there was a true leader there. I do think Eric was a much more "get up and do it" person, while everyone who knew Dylan said taht he was indecisive, laid-back and a slacker. In this sense, I can see why people would assume Eric was the leader, because he was the more energetic active of the duo.

But all evidence indicates that in fact it was Dylan who came up with the idea to go on a spree killing. Its almost certain taht it was Dylan who introduced Eric to this homicide fantasy he had. Of course Eric was all for it and probably the none who first took any real steps to make it a reality.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],I love your post and I couldn't agree with you more.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I'm  sorry but no matter what authority says it, I have a hard time accepting that an infant or a 3 year old is a bona fide psychopath.

Hah, thanks PaintItBlack! Pretty new at the forums myself, I usually just read about columbine and research a lot, trying to connect, put myself in their shoes and try to understand, and as everyone here, it's just too damn hard to understand these two 100%, even if I come to the point where I think I got it all, I read something either in their journals, 11k files, reports, interviews or see something in their body language from their videos that doesn't fit and it just gets me back to square one.

Okay, A few other points about why Dylan was the not the leader?

1. Eric did talk about a future in something like "gaming" and also signed up for the army but he must of known there 50/50 chance he was going to get in because he was on psychological medication. His father must of known there was a 50/50 chance, he'd get in. If the murders never have happened he'd probably be still suck in his town for a while before going onto community college. According to "No easy answers" in easy answers it says "My friend Eric Harris skipped class all the time" by Brooks Brown. So how good was his grades? I understand he was intelligent but still...

2. Dylan got into university and even looked at his dorm room.

3. Dylan told Brooke's Brown about the website. Where he had threatened Brooke's Brown. Wouldn't that put a spotlight on Eric> would that not put their plan into jeporty?

4. Dylan's diaries have very little violence in them. It's mostly about love and suicide and self loathing. Eric's is nothing but hate.

5 ".I hate this non-thinking stasis. Im stuck in humanity. maybe going "NBK" (gawd) w. eric is the way to break free. i hate this." Dylan's journals. Dylan is suicidal and if you ask me, he was looking for a way of getting out of it. People with even suicidal depression deep down don't want to kill themselves. He was egged on by Eric.

thedude11 wrote:

3:19 "I think Dylan on one occasion did say -wouldn't it be kinda fun to sit on the soccer field and shoot at the school?"


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and in the 11k he stated it was eric harris.

snacks wrote:

Okay, A few other points about why Dylan was the not the leader?

1. Eric did talk about a future in something like "gaming" and also signed up for the army but he must of known there 50/50 chance he was going to get in because he was on psychological medication. His father known there was a 50/50 chance, he'd get in. If the murders never have happened he'd probably be still suck in his town for a while before going onto community. According to No easy answers in easy answers it says "My friend Eric Harris skipped class all the time" by Brooks Brown. So how good was his grades. I understand he was intelligent but still...

2. Dylan got into university and even looked at his dorm room.

3. Dylan told Brooke's Brown about the website. Where he had threatened Brooke's Brown. Wouldn't that put a spotlight on Eric> would that not put their plan into jeporty?

4. Dylan's diaries have very little violence in them. It's mostly about love and suicide and self loathing. Eric's is nothing but hate.

5 ".I hate this non-thinking stasis. Im stuck in humanity. maybe going "NBK" (gawd) w. eric is the way to break free. i hate this." the journals. Dylan is suicidal and if you ask me, he was looking for a way of getting out of it. People with even suicidal depression deep down don't want to kill themselves. He was egged on by Eric.

Good points, it's just hard to really get down to it I guess. And yeah, Dylan checking out his dorm room is really strange. What I think is that both of them did have second thoughts about it at one point or another, it's just that their 'feeding off of each other' was stronger.

I could definitely picture Dylan being like "Hmm, I'll check that university I got into, perhaps something will change, maybe there is something else for me", but yet still, his depression was stronger, his bleak outlook on life was stronger and that experience changed nothing at all. Or maybe he was just 'forced' into it, like I could picture Dylan's mom being "Hey Dyl, you and your father are going to check out your dorm room tomorrow, congrats on getting into the university!" and he just went along with it.

Same with Eric, I'm thinking he probably thought "if I get into the army, I might get to destroy something, so nbk won't be really necessary", but yet, he knew medication would stop him, reinforcing the NBK idea. Or with the video game stuff, thought of a future in the video game industry seemed ok for him, yet, his hate for humanity was stronger, not to mention he got a lot of hate for his Doom maps on the internet (allegedly, that's what I heard), and maybe that got to him as well, since he really wasn't that confident anyways.

And about Eric's website, hm.. Yeah, was it really Dylan who did that? I swear I read somewhere it was someone else and not Dylan, that it's just a myth, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I specifically remember reading somewhere that it wasn't Dylan telling on Eric.

And about the diaries, yeah, Eric's did have a lot more violence in them, but that's the thing... Ever heard of "the loudest one, is the weakest one in the room"? That's exactly what happened here. Eric boasted, was loud in his diary, extreme, full with violence. Not to mention he was aggressive and moody, while the quiet Dylan was hiding all that rage in him, unsuspected, not really writing about it too much, hiding, waiting for that moment... That's a lot more dangerous if you ask me.

em81 wrote:

thedude11 wrote:

3:19 "I think Dylan on one occasion did say -wouldn't it be kinda fun to sit on the soccer field and shoot at the school?"


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and in the 11k he stated it was eric harris.

Oh ok, must have missed it. I stand corrected.

As the book says "No easy answers" is because there is no real reason  why they did what they did. I live in rough neighborhood, I know kids who grew up with alcoholic parents.  I went to school with a kid, when we were about twelve, he had two brothers in prison and he never shot up a school. I also know a girl who was raped at 13 by a friend of her dads and has yet to kill anyone.

I look at Columbine as two pissed off kids with a senior project. NBK was something that existed as a side endeavor from the rest of their lives. That's why Dylan still went to check out college, and even played fantasy baseball right up to the day before the shooting. Since we don't know all of the details, we can only speculate though.

Numerous professionals in the mental health field, including ones specifically involved with criminals, have noted psychopathic traits in Eric, and depressive ones in Dylan. I am apt to agree with them to some extent. There are plenty of functional depressive and psychopathic people all over the world, both male and female.

Eric and Dylan were pissed off kids who were smart and resourceful. Their mental health issues played a part in their shooting rampage, but only a small part. Psychopaths are self serving and have impulse control issues. Depressives have a hard time following through with large projects or tasks.

Yet these two supposed mentally ill kids went through with a semi successful act of domestic terrorism. They planned, collaborated and celebrated their successes for over a year. The day of the intended bombing, they adjusted their trajectory when the bombs failed to go off. Since they lacked tactical training, they had to adjust again when their ideal targets ran off or went for cover.

I don't think there was a true "leader", in the sense that one of the boys was keeping the whole shooting rampage going. They both had different reasons, but the same amount of motivation to hurt people. I think they both probably motivated one another in different ways, both before and during their shooting.

TL;DR, their mental health played a small factor, and their leadership was handed off based on who needed more motivation.

snacks wrote:

Okay, A few other points about why Dylan was the not the leader?

1. Eric did talk about a future in something like "gaming" and also signed up for the army but he must of known there 50/50 chance he was going to get in because he was on psychological medication. His father must of  known there was a 50/50 chance, he'd get in. If the murders never have happened he'd probably be still suck in his town for a while before going onto community college. According to "No easy answers" in easy answers it says "My friend Eric Harris skipped class all the time" by Brooks Brown. So how good was his grades? I understand he was intelligent but still...

2. Dylan got into university and even looked at his dorm room.

3. Dylan told Brooke's Brown about the website. Where he had threatened Brooke's Brown. Wouldn't that put a spotlight on Eric> would that not put their plan into jeporty?

4. Dylan's diaries have very little violence in them. It's mostly about love and suicide and self loathing. Eric's is nothing but hate.

5 ".I hate this non-thinking stasis. Im stuck in humanity. maybe going "NBK" (gawd) w. eric is the way to break free. i hate this." Dylan's journals. Dylan is suicidal and if you ask me, he was looking for a way of getting out of it. People with even suicidal depression deep down don't want to kill themselves. He was egged on by Eric.

Ok, some comments:

1&2 - University was a smokescreen, just like the Marines and the Prom and many other things. E&D sometimes did stupid things that could get them caught, but for the most part they played along, hid their plans well and pretended everything was normal. Univbersity was part of it.

3 - We cannot be sure, but there is a theory that it was in fact Eric who told Dylan to go to Brooks and inform him of the website. Eric might have been trying to indimidate Brooks by the website and used Dylan to draw Brooks's attention to the website.
We can't be sure if its the case, but it sure sounds just like something Eric would do.

4 - Yeah, but his creative writings do. "Lone man strikes with absolute rage" - all you need to read.

5 - Well, when he wrote that line NBK was still some time away. In fact we have both homicidal and suicidal journal entries from Dylan before we even get the first entry from Harris. We can't be sure if Eric had suicidal/homicidal thoughts in 1997, but we sure as hell know Dylan had these even before he and Eric joined up and planned NBK.


Again, not saying that Dylan was the leader (far from it). What I am saying is taht Dylan is by all evidence the one who first came up with the spree homicide idea. I also think theirs was a "buddy-duo" dynamic rather than a leader-follower one. Eric was the one who seems to have planned out the details, as well as provided the bomb know-how and made most of the bombs in his garage.
Both had their parts to play in the event and I relaly don't see much evidence of one being a clear leader "dragging behind" the other.

Yeah, there's quite a bit of evidence that Dylan had the idea for the attack in his head before Eric...he writes about it in his journal from before the duo had really solidified as friends. My theory is that Dylan talked about it a lot with Eric but Eric was the first to really take the basic idea of attacking the school and turning it into reality.

I very much agree with this video. I believe Dylan was much smarter and more creative than Eric and was more of a dreamer/thinker than a do'er. I believe it was Dylan's idea which Eric kick started into action. Does this make Dylan the leader? Not really no...but he certainly wasn't a follower if what I say was the case.

Eric in his actions was more the aggressor than Dylan. Brookes brown "IN MARCH OF 1998, 1 WAS WALKING TO CLASS WHEN DYLAN approached
me with a small piece ofpaper. On it was written the address fcr a Web site. " He was also known to hold grudges. In a lot of these "partners in crimes" killing. In a lot of the cases if the two had never met, the murders probably would not have happened. But in Eric's case, his diaries is filled with violence and hate, he held onto grudges like it was gold. If Eric had never met Dylan, Dylan probably would of gone onto college and Eric would of taken a grudge too far and ended up in jail.

I see Dylan as the leader in the sense that he sat back while Eric ran his mouth and built his bombs. Dylan wanted to kill but he mainly just wanted to die. He knew going NBK would force his hand to suicide, something he may have been afraid to do without a motivation. Doing it with Eric gave him the possible bonus of hundreds of kills via bombing due to Eric's considerably higher bloodlust. He could put in a little cash and effort and let Eric lead the charge all so he could die.

On top of all that people said Dylan seemed less likely to do something like NBK. He was seen as a nice guy who could maybe be a tad wierd sometimes. Because of all that Dylan was the manipulator in my opinion. Dylan was also said to have suffered from temper tantrum type behavior ever since he was a kid. He once supposedly shoved a girl in gym class and slapped at girl at work. Even with this type of behavior he was able to trick people. Its because of all this that I think Dylan was the true manipulator between the two boys.

I don't think Dylan was a manipulator, he was shy and detached and thus people close to him like his friends assumed he's a very mild guy.

I remember underclassmen mentioing he could have been loud, obnoxious and a bully. Eric usually kept his head low in front of people who had some authority over him - his boss, adults, teachers, policemen in his diversion etc.

Dylan was known for sometimes losing control in front of persons of authority, like the time he called someone a "bicth" in conversation with his teacher (IT teacher iirc). Also Eric was able to make a much better impression on the police in the diversion.

So yeha, its not as clear cut. I think Eric felt he could rage all he wantyed against some people who he felt have no power over him, but kept his head low when he thought its wise to do so. Dylan was more detached, but also seems to have been less in control of his emotions.

People though him to be more gentle, because he was a quiet introvert, more so than Eric. It came naturally to Dylan.