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 Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?

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ThoughtBox

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PostSubject: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeMon Jan 11, 2016 12:04 pm

Outside of the basement tapes, which I am unfortunately resigned to say we will never see, is there really anything else out there that hasn't been discussed and opined on in this and previous forums? I am starting to wonder if the Columbine mystique is finally wearing off on me, and if this dead horse hasn't been beaten beyond all recognition? The only other thing that is extant which I would love to see is Eric's psychiatrist's notes, but alas, that is also a near impossibility. It's sort of sad to think that I may be at the end of my Columbine reading/researching/obsessing road, perhaps to rejoin it again at another time, but maybe not. Anyone else feel that way?

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeMon Jan 11, 2016 5:07 pm

For me personally I see how many things are still missing and that ignites my interest sometimes. I noticed you used the term 'near impossibility' which feels likely is in terms of if we may ever see any of the stuff that is missing. Doesn't really stop me wondering or speculating though.
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eli27

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeMon Jan 11, 2016 5:34 pm

I got soooo much stuff to get through. I've been Columbining probably barely over a year now, and although I seem to think about it every waking (and sleeping it seems now) hour of my life I'm not even close to getting through everything. Plus I keep forgetting everything like a week after I research it, but I'm kind of 'archiving' my research through tumblr now.

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LPorter101
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeMon Jan 11, 2016 6:05 pm

Take it from someone who's been fascinated by Columbine since the day it happened: your interest will ebb and flow, but it will never go away.

I, for one, am looking forward to the day that Cullen has to admit that his book is largely full of shit.

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eli27

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeMon Jan 11, 2016 6:06 pm

LPorter101 wrote:
I, for one, am looking forward to the day that Cullen has to admit that his book is largely full of shit.

you're gonna be waiting a while man

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LPorter101
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeMon Jan 11, 2016 6:07 pm

eli27 wrote:
LPorter101 wrote:
I, for one, am looking forward to the day that Cullen has to admit that his book is largely full of shit.

you're gonna be waiting a while man

I'll wait as long as it takes. I've got nothing if not time.

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sororityalpha
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeMon Jan 11, 2016 9:13 pm

If I make it until 2027, I am looking forward to the depositions of Eric and Dylan's parents ...


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queenfarooq




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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 12, 2016 1:02 am

sororityalpha wrote:
If I make it until 2027, I am looking forward to Eric and Dylan's parents depositions ....

This is one of those missing things that I am also very interested to see.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 12, 2016 7:36 am

LPorter101 wrote:
Take it from someone who's been fascinated by Columbine since the day it happened: your interest will ebb and flow, but it will never go away.

I, for one, am looking forward to the day that Cullen has to admit that his book is largely full of shit.

Is there a chance this might happen? lol
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ThoughtBox

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 12, 2016 9:49 am

Ah, I forgot about the depositions, that would definitely be something of interest, and is only a little more than a decade away from being released. I know Susan Klebold's book is about to be published soon, but I am not sure there is really going to be anything earth-shaking in that. I just checked, it's available on Amazon already for a Feb 15 release. "A Mother's Reckoning: Living in the Aftermath of Tragedy" has the classic pic of Susan and a young Dylan on the cover. All proceeds will go to mental health research initiatives.

Thanks LPorter for your input, I always did suspect that this Columbine disease is something that one just can't ever shake off!

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“Despair is the price one pays for self-awareness. Look deeply into life, and you'll always find despair.” -- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 12, 2016 12:58 pm

ThoughtBox wrote:
Ah, I forgot about the depositions, that would definitely be something of interest, and is only a little more than a decade away from being released. I know Susan Klebold's book is about to be published soon, but I am not sure there is really going to be anything earth-shaking in that. I just checked, it's available on Amazon already for a Feb 15 release. "A Mother's Reckoning: Living in the Aftermath of Tragedy" has the classic pic of Susan and a young Dylan on the cover. All proceeds will go to mental health research initiatives.

Thanks LPorter for your input, I always did suspect that this Columbine disease is something that one just can't ever shake off!

Yeah I am interested in reading her book just to learn what it was like from the perspective of the parents of the killers. We have all heard stories from the victims parents but imagine what it must be like to come home to your house swarmed with police and then learn that your child murdered several other people and then killed himself. I just can't fathom how a mother ever gets over that.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 12, 2016 4:38 pm

FlyerFan wrote:
ThoughtBox wrote:
Ah, I forgot about the depositions, that would definitely be something of interest, and is only a little more than a decade away from being released. I know Susan Klebold's book is about to be published soon, but I am not sure there is really going to be anything earth-shaking in that. I just checked, it's available on Amazon already for a Feb 15 release. "A Mother's Reckoning: Living in the Aftermath of Tragedy" has the classic pic of Susan and a young Dylan on the cover. All proceeds will go to mental health research initiatives.

Thanks LPorter for your input, I always did suspect that this Columbine disease is something that one just can't ever shake off!

Yeah I am interested in reading her book just to learn what it was like from the perspective of the parents of the killers. We have all heard stories from the victims parents but imagine what it must be like to come home to your house swarmed with police and then learn that your child murdered several other people and then killed himself. I just can't fathom how a mother ever gets over that.

I hope to be able to get the book and read it as quickly as possible so I can share some thoughts on it with the forum. I met Susan once at a suicide prevention convention a few years back and shook her hand, but I didn't let on that I knew exactly who she was. She really is a lovely woman who has dedicated her life to mental health issues.

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"I will have a love, someone who is me in a way. Someday ... possibly thru this life, maybe another, but it will happen..."  --DK, The Book of Existences

“Despair is the price one pays for self-awareness. Look deeply into life, and you'll always find despair.” -- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 12, 2016 7:06 pm

ThoughtBox wrote:
FlyerFan wrote:
ThoughtBox wrote:
Ah, I forgot about the depositions, that would definitely be something of interest, and is only a little more than a decade away from being released. I know Susan Klebold's book is about to be published soon, but I am not sure there is really going to be anything earth-shaking in that. I just checked, it's available on Amazon already for a Feb 15 release. "A Mother's Reckoning: Living in the Aftermath of Tragedy" has the classic pic of Susan and a young Dylan on the cover. All proceeds will go to mental health research initiatives.

Thanks LPorter for your input, I always did suspect that this Columbine disease is something that one just can't ever shake off!

Yeah I am interested in reading her book just to learn what it was like from the perspective of the parents of the killers. We have all heard stories from the victims parents but imagine what it must be like to come home to your house swarmed with police and then learn that your child murdered several other people and then killed himself. I just can't fathom how a mother ever gets over that.

I hope to be able to get the book and read it as quickly as possible so I can share some thoughts on it with the forum. I met Susan once at a suicide prevention convention a few years back and shook her hand, but I didn't let on that I knew exactly who she was. She really is a lovely woman who has dedicated her life to mental health issues.

That's cool, I'm glad that she is doing something to try and help other people. We don't hear much about the Harris family or about her husband, so it's good to at least see one of them not afraid to go back out into the world and face the public. It's like she's basically saying "i know my child murdered people and I'm sorry, I cant take that back, but heres what I can do to help other kids". I have respect for her.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeTue Jan 12, 2016 11:42 pm

Wow cool it sends to Australia from Amazon, buying now.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeWed Jan 13, 2016 12:11 pm

I am anxiously awaiting the book as well. I'm hoping that it might reveal things we didn't know before.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeWed Jan 13, 2016 1:36 pm

my boyfriend always says that columbine is a dead end. but sometimes i read some new stuff, so it isn´t reall dead.

i also bought the book and i am waiting this book with many expectations.
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eli27

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeWed Jan 13, 2016 4:20 pm

OffthechainJoehovah wrote:
I am anxiously awaiting the book as well. I'm hoping that it might reveal things we didn't know before.

I got a funny feeling we aren't gonna be getting many revelations from this one.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeWed Jan 13, 2016 6:03 pm

I tend to agree with eli27, but I will still give it a read, and I'll look forward to someone starting a good discussion thread about the book that we can all participate in!

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“Despair is the price one pays for self-awareness. Look deeply into life, and you'll always find despair.” -- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeWed Jan 13, 2016 6:21 pm

ThoughtBox wrote:
I tend to agree with eli27, but I will still give it a read, and I'll look forward to someone starting a good discussion thread about the book that we can all participate in!

Yeah we can have a book discussion, I love those. (I used to belong to a Harry Potter forum and we would all anxiously await the next book release and discuss it in avid detail, lol)
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeWed Jan 13, 2016 10:48 pm

I don't see any ground breaking info coming out on Columbine.. but I seem to find or read on this site intriguing new info all the time.

I expect Susan Klebold's book will open up a lot of discussion here.

Somewhere down the line eventually more individual perspectives from key players will arise as well, but we are all chasing a high that will never be met I suppose.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 14, 2016 7:43 am

I am just glad to finally be hearing from one of the parents of the killers. All these years they have all been pretty silent and hidden, especially the Harrises. It takes balls for Sue to come out finally and talk about it to the public.
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eli27

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 14, 2016 4:43 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] OMFG I turn into a little kid again everytime someone mentions HP. Also I can't believe Alan Rickman died today, what a babe. I LOVE YOU SNAPE!


As for things left to discover, I'm thinking of a pretty big one ... except god damn Jeffco won't give it to us.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 14, 2016 5:28 pm

Yeah really sad about Alan, and the same age and death cause as David Bowie too, isnt that eerie?
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 14, 2016 5:51 pm

It always irritated me that the Harrises have always been so damn aloof and distanced from the whole thing. I always got the impression they were (rightfully so) just so scared shitless about the legal ramifications of what their spawn did, that they were almost rendered invisible....and useless. Probably the exact same way Eric viewed them, to be honest.

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“Despair is the price one pays for self-awareness. Look deeply into life, and you'll always find despair.” -- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 14, 2016 7:34 pm

There is a lot of stuff I would like to know that I think we could find out with more interviews or a better reading of the evidence:

1) Who brought the bombs into the cafeteria? And are they visible on the cafeteria tape?

2) Did Eric and Dylan actually fire on the police officers removing Rachel Scott's body?

3) Did Dylan kill himself one second after Eric or was it a few seconds? Or a minute? And how long did they wait between firing the last shots out of the window and killing themselves?

4) What was the position of Eric's and Dylan's bodies before they were moved? Would it be possible to make a graphical representation of it overlaying the existing picture?

5) Was the north facing west door (the one the students in the library escaped from) open during the shooting, such that law enforcement heard the library shooting while it was underway?

6) Why did the shot through Rachel Scott's heart enter her left lower chest and exit through the upper right? From the eyewitness interviews it seems Eric is standing at the top of the hill when he shoots her. Not on the steps and therefore not below her. Was she hit in the head first and falling backwards when she was hit a second time? Was Eric's gun capable of firing fast enough that it could hit her once and again while falling?

Of course there are many things we can't know the answer to but these I think we can if we dug deeper and thought harder about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 14, 2016 9:07 pm

lasttrain wrote:
There is a lot of stuff I would like to know that I think we could find out with more interviews or a better reading of the evidence:

1) Who brought the bombs into the cafeteria?  And are they visible on the cafeteria tape?

2) Did Eric and Dylan actually fire on the police officers removing Rachel Scott's body?

3) Did Dylan kill himself one second after Eric or was it a few seconds?  Or a minute?  And how long did they wait between firing the last shots out of the window and killing themselves?

4) What was the position of Eric's and Dylan's bodies before they were moved?  Would it be possible to make a graphical representation of it overlaying the existing picture?

5) Was the north facing west door (the one the students in the library escaped from) open during the shooting, such that law enforcement heard the library shooting while it was underway?

6) Why did the shot through Rachel Scott's heart enter her left lower chest and exit through the upper right?  From the eyewitness interviews it seems Eric is standing at the top of the hill when he shoots her.  Not on the steps and therefore not below her.  Was she hit in the head first and falling backwards when she was hit a second time?  Was Eric's gun capable of firing fast enough that it could hit her once and again while falling?

Of course there are many things we can't know the answer to but these I think we can if we dug deeper and thought harder about it.

1.) Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but Eric and/or Dylan put the bombs in the cafeteria. And I don't believe there is any footage because they did it at the same time a new tape was being put in. The cafeteria wasn't being filmed during the switch.

2.) Not sure about them removing Rachel's body, but I think it's known that Eric and Dylan were shooting at cops.

3.) I heard Eric and Dylan shot themselves together on the count of 3. I believe I also read somewhere that Dylan didn't die right away, despite being shot in the head, and coughed up blood firing. I could be wrong. I would normally think you can't be alive whatsoever after putting a bullet through your brain, but maybe.

4) Probably not.

5.) I believe Randy Brown said yes, it was.

6.) No idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 14, 2016 9:10 pm

FlyerFan wrote:
Yeah really sad about Alan, and the same age and death cause as David Bowie too, isnt that eerie?

2016 sucks so far. Too many awesome people are dying to cancer at too young an age.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 14, 2016 10:10 pm

OffthechainJoehovah wrote:
lasttrain wrote:
There is a lot of stuff I would like to know that I think we could find out with more interviews or a better reading of the evidence:

1) Who brought the bombs into the cafeteria?  And are they visible on the cafeteria tape?

2) Did Eric and Dylan actually fire on the police officers removing Rachel Scott's body?

3) Did Dylan kill himself one second after Eric or was it a few seconds?  Or a minute?  And how long did they wait between firing the last shots out of the window and killing themselves?

4) What was the position of Eric's and Dylan's bodies before they were moved?  Would it be possible to make a graphical representation of it overlaying the existing picture?

5) Was the north facing west door (the one the students in the library escaped from) open during the shooting, such that law enforcement heard the library shooting while it was underway?

6) Why did the shot through Rachel Scott's heart enter her left lower chest and exit through the upper right?  From the eyewitness interviews it seems Eric is standing at the top of the hill when he shoots her.  Not on the steps and therefore not below her.  Was she hit in the head first and falling backwards when she was hit a second time?  Was Eric's gun capable of firing fast enough that it could hit her once and again while falling?

Of course there are many things we can't know the answer to but these I think we can if we dug deeper and thought harder about it.

1.) Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but Eric and/or Dylan put the bombs in the cafeteria. And I don't believe there is any footage because they did it at the same time a new tape was being put in. The cafeteria wasn't being filmed during the switch.

2.) Not sure about them removing Rachel's body, but I think it's known that Eric and Dylan were shooting at cops.

3.) I heard Eric and Dylan shot themselves together on the count of 3. I believe I also read somewhere that Dylan didn't die right away, despite being shot in the head, and coughed up blood firing. I could be wrong. I would normally think you can't be alive whatsoever after putting a bullet through your brain, but maybe.

4) Probably not.

5.) I believe Randy Brown said yes, it was.

6.) No idea.

1) Was it Eric and Dylan, or just Eric? And was he (or were they) wearing their trench coats? The tape was changed, but that doesn't mean it didn't catch them.

2) I meant to say Richard Castaldo. Officer DiManna testified that he was shot or hit with shrapnel while moving Richard Castaldo and Sgt. O'Shea claimed that he was shot at three times through the north-facing west doors. However, this happened between 12:15-12:30, which is after Eric and Dylan were supposedly dead. Did they live long enough to fire on Richard Castaldo's rescuers? That is an open question.

3) They did not shoot themselves at the count of 3. The source was Patti Nielsen, who later told police on p. 98 of the 11K that she in fact did not hear this. Dylan's brains and blood are also on Eric's pant leg, which suggests that when Dylan killed himself his head fell down on Eric's leg, which was already straight on the ground because Eric was already dead. So we know Eric killed himself first. The question is, by how much? One split second? Or one minute? Five minutes?

4) Why not? The police left behind descriptions as to where their bodies were positioned upon first seeing them, before their being searched.

5) Randy Brown said that, but how does he know? What's his source? Was it released to the public? Can we acquire it? That's my question.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 14, 2016 10:19 pm

7) The diversionary bomb. We really need to assemble all the evidence for this and find out what happened with it. Why did this go off when nothing else did?
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeFri Jan 15, 2016 1:36 am

I tend to think it just depends on how exciting you want what you discover to be. I doubt I have anything left to read about it that would really excite me personally. The last thing I remember was the basement tape transcripts, I didn't know they existed and that was pretty thrilling to go through. That for me made it a lot less upsetting not getting the basement tapes. Beyond that just the thoughts of people involved was interesting, and discussing it with everyone on here.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeFri Jan 15, 2016 3:57 am

Did anyone ever read Marc Lepines mothers book 'Aftermath'? Always wanted to but can't find it cheap, I am looking forward to SKs book I think it will be very interesting, as far as things left to discover there are so many unanswered questions still, topic will never get dull IMO
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeFri Jan 15, 2016 8:02 am

ThoughtBox wrote:
It always irritated me that the Harrises have always been so damn aloof and distanced from the whole thing. I always got the impression they were (rightfully so) just so scared shitless about the legal ramifications of what their spawn did, that they were almost rendered invisible....and useless. Probably the exact same way Eric viewed them, to be honest.

Yeah, I mean he did the most damage out of both boys, you would think they would want to get everything out in the open. By not coming out and talking about it it almost seems like they're just trying to hide and hope it will all go away.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 21, 2016 12:10 pm

lasttrain wrote:
There is a lot of stuff I would like to know that I think we could find out with more interviews or a better reading of the evidence:

1) Who brought the bombs into the cafeteria?  And are they visible on the cafeteria tape?

2) Did Eric and Dylan actually fire on the police officers removing Rachel Scott's body?

3) Did Dylan kill himself one second after Eric or was it a few seconds?  Or a minute?  And how long did they wait between firing the last shots out of the window and killing themselves?

4) What was the position of Eric's and Dylan's bodies before they were moved?  Would it be possible to make a graphical representation of it overlaying the existing picture?

5) Was the north facing west door (the one the students in the library escaped from) open during the shooting, such that law enforcement heard the library shooting while it was underway?

6) Why did the shot through Rachel Scott's heart enter her left lower chest and exit through the upper right?  From the eyewitness interviews it seems Eric is standing at the top of the hill when he shoots her.  Not on the steps and therefore not below her.  Was she hit in the head first and falling backwards when she was hit a second time?  Was Eric's gun capable of firing fast enough that it could hit her once and again while falling?

Of course there are many things we can't know the answer to but these I think we can if we dug deeper and thought harder about it.

Yes, number 3 has always intrigued me, and I know in the past I started a thread (can't find it right now though) about how much time elapsed between the two killing themselves. There was a good amount of discussion. Perhaps Jenn can find it, or I'll try to find it when I have some time. It is, to me, one of the lingering questions that we may never fully know about, but I do have a tendency to obsess about this facet of the crime.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 21, 2016 1:46 pm

ThoughtBox wrote:
lasttrain wrote:
There is a lot of stuff I would like to know that I think we could find out with more interviews or a better reading of the evidence:

1) Who brought the bombs into the cafeteria?  And are they visible on the cafeteria tape?

2) Did Eric and Dylan actually fire on the police officers removing Rachel Scott's body?

3) Did Dylan kill himself one second after Eric or was it a few seconds?  Or a minute?  And how long did they wait between firing the last shots out of the window and killing themselves?

4) What was the position of Eric's and Dylan's bodies before they were moved?  Would it be possible to make a graphical representation of it overlaying the existing picture?

5) Was the north facing west door (the one the students in the library escaped from) open during the shooting, such that law enforcement heard the library shooting while it was underway?

6) Why did the shot through Rachel Scott's heart enter her left lower chest and exit through the upper right?  From the eyewitness interviews it seems Eric is standing at the top of the hill when he shoots her.  Not on the steps and therefore not below her.  Was she hit in the head first and falling backwards when she was hit a second time?  Was Eric's gun capable of firing fast enough that it could hit her once and again while falling?

Of course there are many things we can't know the answer to but these I think we can if we dug deeper and thought harder about it.

Yes, number 3 has always intrigued me, and I know in the past I started a thread (can't find it right now though) about how much time elapsed between the two killing themselves. There was a good amount of discussion. Perhaps Jenn can find it, or I'll try to find it when I have some time. It is, to me, one of the lingering questions that we may never fully know about, but I do have a tendency to obsess about this facet of the crime.
Here's a thread you created back in January, 2014 about the alternate suicide of Dylan. It's the only topic I'm finding that you created about the suicides. If you titled it something different, let me know what it was and I'll find it. But as far as suicides, this is all that comes up for you.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 pm

Does anyone know how long it would have taken the fuse to burn down on the Molotov cocktail?

Also, it seems that they committed suicide facing each other. If you look at where Dylan's right knee would have been if he was kneeling it lines up with where Eric's left foot would have been if he was squatting. That says nearly simultaneous to me because I don't think Dylan would have taken the trouble to face Eric at this moment if Eric was already dead. I think Dylan lights it, Eric squats down, Dylan kneels down, Eric goes one second before it explodes and Dylan just a millisecond after that possibly before it explodes as well. It is entirely plausible that Eric goes first only by a millisecond because bodies react instantaneously to this type of force and Eric's leg would have had time to kick out before Dylan toppled and landed on it.

In any case I wish I knew how long the fuse was and how long it would take it to burn down.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 28, 2016 12:31 am

lasttrain wrote:
7) The diversionary bomb.  We really need to assemble all the evidence for this and find out what happened with it.  Why did this go off when nothing else did?

This. There is so much I've wondered about the bombs, as well as teh witness testimony about how they went off. it seems strange that they got these to go off, but no the cafeteria ones.

I recall one of the older message boards had a witness account(no sources though) that said he kicked the bomb bag, and it made a whirring sound like a remote controlled car. I'll have to see if I can find it.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 28, 2016 1:57 pm

1. Didn't they bring the bags in themselves during the time the cafeteria tape miraculously misses recording?

4. Wasn't Eric removed from the library without his pants? Would that make it plausible that the famous death pic depicts them before they were moved? It is said that Dylan aspirated blood before taking his last breath. Could it be possible that he ended up rolled over on his back instead of Police rolling him over like people speculate? Based on the blood pool below his head, I am leaning more towards it not being Police that rolled him over. How much time elapsed before the pictures were taken? In my experience, dead bodies are photographed before being touched when it is an unattended death. Hmm.

5. I've heard the Library door was propped open with a chair before the shooting even started but who knows.

As for the Molotov cocktails... burn time depends on a lot of different factors. Amount of flammable liquid in the bottle, the size of the bottle, what was used as a fuse and how long was it. I am going to go out on a limb here and assume they were all Snapple bottles like the ones found in Dylan's car. If that is the case and they were filled with a quarter to half full with gas and they used cotton material such as torn shirt rags as a fuse, it only takes about a minute to a minute and a half to burn down and heat up the glass enough to explode it.


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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Jan 28, 2016 11:57 pm

Rebdomine wrote:

As for the Molotov cocktails... burn time depends on a lot of different factors. Amount of flammable liquid in the bottle, the size of the bottle, what was used as a fuse and how long was it. I am going to go out on a limb here and assume they were all Snapple bottles like the ones found in Dylan's car. If that is the case and they were filled with a quarter to half full with gas and they used cotton material such as torn shirt rags as a fuse, it only takes about a minute to a minute and a half to burn down and heat up the glass enough to explode it.


If this is the case, then it means that Dylan could have lit the Molotov, then they basically could have taken thirty seconds to a minute arranging themselves to commit suicide while it slowly burned down. That seems more realistic to me than it all happening quickly.

Another question I have is whether Eric and Dylan were in the conceivable blast radius of the Molotov. In other words, did they feel some sense of urgency to commit suicide before it blew up--or was the Molotov itself partly intended to induce a sense of urgency, almost like a countdown to suicide.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeFri Jan 29, 2016 9:27 am

lasttrain wrote:
Rebdomine wrote:




Another question I have is whether Eric and Dylan were in the conceivable blast radius of the Molotov.  In other words, did they feel some sense of urgency to commit suicide before it blew up--or was the Molotov itself partly intended to induce a sense of urgency, almost like a countdown to suicide.

Good point here, I had never thought about that--the molotov as an impetus to finish themselves off, and as a "countdown," as it were, as previously suggested. The more I think about it, it makes more sense than just a useless final gesture of "destruction" by lighting the molotov.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeFri Jan 29, 2016 10:12 am

ThoughtBox wrote:
lasttrain wrote:
Rebdomine wrote:




Another question I have is whether Eric and Dylan were in the conceivable blast radius of the Molotov.  In other words, did they feel some sense of urgency to commit suicide before it blew up--or was the Molotov itself partly intended to induce a sense of urgency, almost like a countdown to suicide.

Good point here, I had never thought about that--the molotov as an impetus to finish themselves off, and as a "countdown," as it were, as previously suggested. The more I think about it, it makes more sense than just a useless final gesture of "destruction" by lighting the molotov.

It was placed on the table closest to them.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 02, 2016 11:58 am

I've always been amazed at how close together their bodies were, and also to their victims as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 02, 2016 12:41 pm

Rebdomine wrote:
ThoughtBox wrote:
lasttrain wrote:
Rebdomine wrote:




Another question I have is whether Eric and Dylan were in the conceivable blast radius of the Molotov.  In other words, did they feel some sense of urgency to commit suicide before it blew up--or was the Molotov itself partly intended to induce a sense of urgency, almost like a countdown to suicide.

Good point here, I had never thought about that--the molotov as an impetus to finish themselves off, and as a "countdown," as it were, as previously suggested. The more I think about it, it makes more sense than just a useless final gesture of "destruction" by lighting the molotov.

It was placed on the table closest to them.
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So Ireland was underneath the table they placed the molotov  on? That's so crazy. I'm guessing the presumed he was dead.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2016 4:51 pm

browneyes11 wrote:
Rebdomine wrote:
ThoughtBox wrote:
lasttrain wrote:
Rebdomine wrote:




Another question I have is whether Eric and Dylan were in the conceivable blast radius of the Molotov.  In other words, did they feel some sense of urgency to commit suicide before it blew up--or was the Molotov itself partly intended to induce a sense of urgency, almost like a countdown to suicide.

Good point here, I had never thought about that--the molotov as an impetus to finish themselves off, and as a "countdown," as it were, as previously suggested. The more I think about it, it makes more sense than just a useless final gesture of "destruction" by lighting the molotov.

It was placed on the table closest to them.
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So Ireland was underneath the table they placed the molotov  on? That's so crazy. I'm guessing the presumed he was dead.

They probably didn't care if he was dead or not. But he was unconscious for much of the time in the library so it is entirely possible that he did look dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeThu Feb 04, 2016 7:37 pm

The fact that Patrick Ireland rose up out of this wasteland and dragged himself to safety is a true testament to the power of the human spirit.

All the news reports don't really do justice to this picture.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 05, 2016 4:49 pm

lasttrain wrote:
The fact that Patrick Ireland rose up out of this wasteland and dragged himself to safety is a true testament to the power of the human spirit.

All the news reports don't really do justice to this picture.

I agree, and what's even more incredible is that he probably didn't even see a lot of that carnage because he was out cold most of the time, and when he did wake up his only goal was to get to that window. He was on a mission and he didn't give up.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 05, 2016 7:09 pm

lasttrain wrote:
The fact that Patrick Ireland rose up out of this wasteland and dragged himself to safety is a true testament to the power of the human spirit.

All the news reports don't really do justice to this picture.

Yes, indeed.

The only parts of Cullen's book that I endorse wholeheartedly are the ones where he talks about Ireland. That guy had (and still has) guts.

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 12, 2016 5:04 pm

I haven't find a better topic to post this, so I'm just gonna write it here.

I was reading Anne Marie Hochhalter's facebook post about the letter she received from the Klebolds after the shooting and decided to check the comments section. One of Dave Sanders daughters had written a comment mentioning her father, and a girl called Jenn Smull answered her with the following:

"I risked my life to try to save Mr. Sanders that day. I was near him until 3pm when SWAT came into the science rooms. I wanted you to know I really tried my best. Obviously I still struggle with it."

"I was the one who asked how he was doing at about 1:30 that day and a student closer to him told me they were showing him pictures of his girls and he said to tell his girls he loves them. I spoke to your sister about it all over coffee many years ago. I loved her fairy tattoos."

I checked the 11k, and there's an interview with a Jennifer Smull (pg. 002182) but it turns out that she wasn't even in the same classroom as Dave. She was in the one next door hiding.

I got kinda angry after reading it, I mean, how did she risk her life trying to save Dave? She just happened to be in the adjacent room and she did NOTHING but hide behind the tables!

The only one who risked his life that day was Mr. Sanders, and the ones who tried to save him were Aaron Hancey and Kevin Starkey, so what the hell is this woman trying by telling lies to the Sanders family? Or is she writing that to try to catch the attention from some TV channel in order to do a short interview during the next anniversary or something?

I know this ain't a big deal, but I just needed to say it in order to let it go, I really got angry reading her pretending to be some kind of hero… and better to write it down in here than ruining the fb post.

*Breathe deeply*
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 12, 2016 6:06 pm

Maybe she found it comforting to place herself in that situation rather then just as a bystander who couldn't help him? I know its wrong to tell lies and especially about this sort of situation but as someone who has experienced a lot of pain in my life I do understand altering my own memories to make myself out to be a hero or something else, depending on the situation. And a lot of children in terrible situations do use this defense mechanism to cope.

Just a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeSat Feb 13, 2016 8:37 am

Gonz wrote:
I haven't find a better topic to post this, so I'm just gonna write it here.

I was reading Anne Marie Hochhalter's facebook post about the letter she received from the Klebolds after the shooting and decided to check the comments section. One of Dave Sanders daughters had written a comment mentioning her father, and a girl called Jenn Smull answered her with the following:

"I risked my life to try to save Mr. Sanders that day. I was near him until 3pm when SWAT came into the science rooms. I wanted you to know I really tried my best. Obviously I still struggle with it."

"I was the one who asked how he was doing at about 1:30 that day and a student closer to him told me they were showing him pictures of his girls and he said to tell his girls he loves them. I spoke to your sister about it all over coffee many years ago. I loved her fairy tattoos."

I checked the 11k, and there's an interview with a Jennifer Smull (pg. 002182) but it turns out that she wasn't even in the same classroom as Dave. She was in the one next door hiding.

I got kinda angry after reading it, I mean, how did she risk her life trying to save Dave? She just happened to be in the adjacent room and she did NOTHING but hide behind the tables!

The only one who risked his life that day was Mr. Sanders, and the ones who tried to save him were Aaron Hancey and Kevin Starkey, so what the hell is this woman trying by telling lies to the Sanders family? Or is she writing that to try to catch the attention from some TV channel in order to do a short interview during the next anniversary or something?

I know this ain't a big deal, but I just needed to say it in order to let it go, I really got angry reading her pretending to be some kind of hero… and better to write it down in here than ruining the fb post.

*Breathe deeply*

I didn't check the 11k for this specifically, but I think they have some mistakes though, don't they? I always want to give people benefit of the doubt...
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? Icon_minitimeSat Feb 13, 2016 9:06 am

FlyerFan wrote:
Maybe she found it comforting to place herself in that situation rather then just as a bystander who couldn't help him? I know its wrong to tell lies and especially about this sort of situation but as someone who has experienced a lot of pain in my life I do understand altering my own memories to make myself out to be a hero or something else, depending on the situation. And a lot of children in terrible situations do use this defense mechanism to cope.

Just a thought.

I see your point, I could understand that she altered her own memories to feel better, but to go telling lies to the victim's family just expecting them to tell her "kudos"… not so much.


maninthebox wrote:
I didn't check the 11k for this specifically, but I think they have some mistakes though, don't they? I always want to give people benefit of the doubt...

Yeah, of course, but not in this case, first she delivered a short handwritten statement to the police and later she was interviewed two additional times by police officers…
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