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 Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?

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maninthebox
Gonz
browneyes11
Rebdomine
radaddio
Jenn
WhereHateRunsRed
ldg1414
lasttrain
Fatheroftwo
em81
Juicy Jazzy
FlyerFan
sororityalpha
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eli27
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ThoughtBox
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ThoughtBox

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 13, 2016 9:22 am

Maybe Susan's new book will have a couple new things to share that weren't in the interview, something new perhaps to discuss...

_________________
"I will have a love, someone who is me in a way. Someday ... possibly thru this life, maybe another, but it will happen..."  --DK, The Book of Existences

“Despair is the price one pays for self-awareness. Look deeply into life, and you'll always find despair.” -- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
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FlyerFan

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 13, 2016 9:45 pm

Gonz wrote:
FlyerFan wrote:
Maybe she found it comforting to place herself in that situation rather then just as a bystander who couldn't help him? I know its wrong to tell lies and especially about this sort of situation but as someone who has experienced a lot of pain in my life I do understand altering my own memories to make myself out to be a hero or something else, depending on the situation. And a lot of children in terrible situations do use this defense mechanism to cope.

Just a thought.

I see your point, I could understand that she altered her own memories to feel better, but to go telling lies to the victim's family just expecting them to tell her "kudos"… not so much.

Yeah that part I really don't have a theory for.
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ThoughtBox

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Mar 09, 2016 4:36 pm

Thanks to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for her thread "Dylan's Journal" I see there are lots more to discover and discuss. Check out the thread when you have a chance, it put the whole E/D dialectic in a totally new light, and probably changed my own thinking about the shooting in a whole new way!

_________________
"I will have a love, someone who is me in a way. Someday ... possibly thru this life, maybe another, but it will happen..."  --DK, The Book of Existences

“Despair is the price one pays for self-awareness. Look deeply into life, and you'll always find despair.” -- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
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lasttrain




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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 10, 2016 7:16 pm

Gonz wrote:
I haven't find a better topic to post this, so I'm just gonna write it here.

I was reading Anne Marie Hochhalter's facebook post about the letter she received from the Klebolds

Could someone paste the text of this post?
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PaintItBlack

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Mar 15, 2016 11:11 pm

Jenn Smull is considering writing a book.

In the light of Sue Klebold coming forward in a recent interview, Jennifer Smull, a columbine survivor is not backing down to what she says she saw on that day. She was one of the students who was in the classroom where Dave Sanders died. Smull says there was a third shooter and that there were several people who didn’t speak up or were witnesses to what happened prior to the shooting. She went on to say there were other’s who were helping Eric and Dylan. After the shooting, however, she claims officers tried to convince her what she saw wasn’t so and was due to shock and the traumatizing events. She believes there was a big cover up and that reasoning being “[Because] all loose ends are tied up when all the guilty parties are dead.”
Smull said she’s been wanting to write a book about what she saw that day but she has gotten threats not to and fears her safety if she decides to.

Her initial comment on Facebook (which ignited people asking questions and her opening up) was as follows:

“I’m a survivor of the Columbine shooting and after watching that (The interview) I want to spend time with her at the memorial. I don’t know what I would say to her, but I would hug her and tell her I feel she is welcome at the memorial next to the school in Clement Park. I chose forgiveness a long time ago in 1999. “

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We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski
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sororityalpha
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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Mar 15, 2016 11:37 pm

lasttrain wrote:
Gonz wrote:
I haven't find a better topic to post this, so I'm just gonna write it here.

I was reading Anne Marie Hochhalter's facebook post about the letter she received from the Klebolds

Could someone paste the text of this post?


Anne Marie Hochhalter

February 11

Dear Sue Klebold,

I was injured at Columbine High School in 1999. As you know, your son Dylan, and his classmate, Eric Harris, killed 13 people and then themselves. You are releasing a book called, "A Mother's Reckoning", and are appearing tomorrow on the TV program 20/20 to talk about what happened and what your son did. I have only two instances to form an opinion on you and they are as follows:

1. You and your husband wrote me a letter a few months after I was paralyzed saying how sorry you were. It was genuine and personal. The Harris letter, on the other hand, was four sentences long on a folded up piece of paper, and was cold and robotic. To refresh your memory, your letter read like this:

"Dear Anne Marie,

Our prayers have been with you each day as we read about the terrible ordeal you and your family have experienced. We read that you had been transferred to Craig Hospital, and we were so thankful that you had progressed to the point where you could enter a rehabilitation facility. Though we have never met, our lives are forever linked through this tragedy that has brought unspeakable heartbreak to our families and our community. With deepest humility we apologize for the role our son, Dylan, had in causing the suffering you and your family have endured. Your recovery process will be a long and difficult road, and we hope that the support of people all over the world will help you find strength and courage as you meet the many challenges you have yet to face. When we read reports of your progress, we marvel at your resolve. It is still terribly difficult for us to believe that the son we knew could play a role in causing harm to you and others. The reality that he shared in the responsibility for this senseless tragedy is beyond our comprehension. We offer our love, support, and service as you and your family work to gain control over your lives. May God watch over you during your recovery process and beyond. May each day bring you successes, however small, that bring you hope and encouragement.

Sincerely,

Sue and Tom Klebold"

2. I was contacted by ABC to comment for the 20/20 special and they told me that any proceeds from your book (aside from publisher's costs) will go to helping those with mental illness. Six months after Columbine happened, my mother, Carla, committed suicide. She was already suffering from depression so the shootings didn't directly cause her to do what she did, but it certainly didn't help. It means a lot to me that you wouldn't keep those proceeds for yourself, but to help others that suffer from mental illness.

I think it's appropriate that the program that you are appearing on is named "20/20". Hindsight is truly 20/20 and I'm sure you have agonized over what you could have done differently. I know, because I do the same thing with trying to think of ways I could have prevented my mother's death. I have no ill-will towards you. Just as I wouldn't want to be judged by the sins of my family members, I hold you in that same regard. It's been a rough road for me, with many medical issues because of my spinal cord injury and intense nerve pain, but I choose not to be bitter towards you. A good friend once told me, "Bitterness is like swallowing a poison pill and expecting the other person to die." It only harms yourself. I have forgiven you and only wish you the best.

Sincerely,

Anne Marie Hochhalter

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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slippy123

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Mar 16, 2016 4:54 am

Rebdomine wrote:
ThoughtBox wrote:
lasttrain wrote:
Rebdomine wrote:




Another question I have is whether Eric and Dylan were in the conceivable blast radius of the Molotov.  In other words, did they feel some sense of urgency to commit suicide before it blew up--or was the Molotov itself partly intended to induce a sense of urgency, almost like a countdown to suicide.

Good point here, I had never thought about that--the molotov as an impetus to finish themselves off, and as a "countdown," as it were, as previously suggested. The more I think about it, it makes more sense than just a useless final gesture of "destruction" by lighting the molotov.

It was placed on the table closest to them.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Patrick was so close to them! I wish he was conscious, as he would of been able to see and hear everything they both did in their last moments!
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Lizpuff

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Mar 16, 2016 9:09 am

sororityalpha wrote:
lasttrain wrote:
Gonz wrote:
I haven't find a better topic to post this, so I'm just gonna write it here.

I was reading Anne Marie Hochhalter's facebook post about the letter she received from the Klebolds

Could someone paste the text of this post?


Anne Marie Hochhalter

February 11

Dear Sue Klebold,

I was injured at Columbine High School in 1999. As you know, your son Dylan, and his classmate, Eric Harris, killed 13 people and then themselves. You are releasing a book called, "A Mother's Reckoning", and are appearing tomorrow on the TV program 20/20 to talk about what happened and what your son did. I have only two instances to form an opinion on you and they are as follows:

1. You and your husband wrote me a letter a few months after I was paralyzed saying how sorry you were. It was genuine and personal. The Harris letter, on the other hand, was four sentences long on a folded up piece of paper, and was cold and robotic. To refresh your memory, your letter read like this:

"Dear Anne Marie,

Our prayers have been with you each day as we read about the terrible ordeal you and your family have experienced. We read that you had been transferred to Craig Hospital, and we were so thankful that you had progressed to the point where you could enter a rehabilitation facility. Though we have never met, our lives are forever linked through this tragedy that has brought unspeakable heartbreak to our families and our community. With deepest humility we apologize for the role our son, Dylan, had in causing the suffering you and your family have endured. Your recovery process will be a long and difficult road, and we hope that the support of people all over the world will help you find strength and courage as you meet the many challenges you have yet to face. When we read reports of your progress, we marvel at your resolve. It is still terribly difficult for us to believe that the son we knew could play a role in causing harm to you and others. The reality that he shared in the responsibility for this senseless tragedy is beyond our comprehension. We offer our love, support, and service as you and your family work to gain control over your lives. May God watch over you during your recovery process and beyond. May each day bring you successes, however small, that bring you hope and encouragement.

Sincerely,

Sue and Tom Klebold"

2. I was contacted by ABC to comment for the 20/20 special and they told me that any proceeds from your book (aside from publisher's costs) will go to helping those with mental illness. Six months after Columbine happened, my mother, Carla, committed suicide. She was already suffering from depression so the shootings didn't directly cause her to do what she did, but it certainly didn't help. It means a lot to me that you wouldn't keep those proceeds for yourself, but to help others that suffer from mental illness.

I think it's appropriate that the program that you are appearing on is named "20/20". Hindsight is truly 20/20 and I'm sure you have agonized over what you could have done differently. I know, because I do the same thing with trying to think of ways I could have prevented my mother's death. I have no ill-will towards you. Just as I wouldn't want to be judged by the sins of my family members, I hold you in that same regard. It's been a rough road for me, with many medical issues because of my spinal cord injury and intense nerve pain, but I choose not to be bitter towards you. A good friend once told me, "Bitterness is like swallowing a poison pill and expecting the other person to die." It only harms yourself. I have forgiven you and only wish you the best.

Sincerely,

Anne Marie Hochhalter

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I love this. Anne Marie seems like a great woman
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ThoughtBox

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 17, 2016 12:33 pm

Why am I not surprised that any type of "condolence" letter written from the Harrises would be viewed as "cold and robotic"? Rolling Eyes

_________________
"I will have a love, someone who is me in a way. Someday ... possibly thru this life, maybe another, but it will happen..."  --DK, The Book of Existences

“Despair is the price one pays for self-awareness. Look deeply into life, and you'll always find despair.” -- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
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PaintItBlack

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 17, 2016 8:27 pm

ThoughtBox wrote:
Why am I not surprised that any type of "condolence" letter written from the Harrises would be viewed as "cold and robotic"? Rolling Eyes


I agree.It seems like nobody still cares or understands the hell they must have been going through at that time.

Just because they haven't been as publicly open as the Klebolds have doesn't mean they didn't suffer greatly.
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ThoughtBox

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Mar 28, 2016 3:56 pm

PaintItBlack wrote:
ThoughtBox wrote:
Why am I not surprised that any type of "condolence" letter written from the Harrises would be viewed as "cold and robotic"? Rolling Eyes


I agree.It seems like nobody still cares or understands the hell they must have been going through at that time.

Just because they haven't been as publicly open as the Klebolds have doesn't mean they didn't suffer greatly.

Well, that, and also because they, more than the Klebolds (Sue in particular) seem (to me at least) to want to distance themselves from what their son did, and I almost wonder if they don't feel responsible even in the slightest bit for the crimes their son committed.

_________________
"I will have a love, someone who is me in a way. Someday ... possibly thru this life, maybe another, but it will happen..."  --DK, The Book of Existences

“Despair is the price one pays for self-awareness. Look deeply into life, and you'll always find despair.” -- Irvin D. Yalom, MD
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PaintItBlack

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Mar 28, 2016 9:55 pm

ThoughtBox wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
ThoughtBox wrote:
Why am I not surprised that any type of "condolence" letter written from the Harrises would be viewed as "cold and robotic"? Rolling Eyes


I agree.It seems like nobody still cares or understands the hell they must have been going through at that time.

Just because they haven't been as publicly open as the Klebolds have doesn't mean they didn't suffer greatly.

Well, that, and also because they, more than the Klebolds (Sue in particular) seem (to me at least) to want to distance themselves from what their son did, and I almost wonder if they don't feel responsible even in the slightest bit for the crimes their son committed.


They may not and if you think about it ,they aren't responsible.They didn't do the shooting or know it was going to happen.

I'm sure they made some mistakes with Eric but what would have been needed to prevent the shooting is not something many would have seen at the time.
They probably feel some guilt and a tremendous regret but found a way to live with it by reassuring themselves they did the best they could. I can't say I wouldn't do the same in their shoes.
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astrospace92

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PostSubject: Re: Is there anything left to discover? To discuss?   Is there anything left to discover? To discuss? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Mar 29, 2016 5:07 pm

ThoughtBox wrote:
PaintItBlack wrote:
ThoughtBox wrote:
Why am I not surprised that any type of "condolence" letter written from the Harrises would be viewed as "cold and robotic"? Rolling Eyes


I agree.It seems like nobody still cares or understands the hell they must have been going through at that time.

Just because they haven't been as publicly open as the Klebolds have doesn't mean they didn't suffer greatly.

Well, that, and also because they, more than the Klebolds (Sue in particular) seem (to me at least) to want to distance themselves from what their son did, and I almost wonder if they don't feel responsible even in the slightest bit for the crimes their son committed.

I agree with you Thoughtbox.

I've said it on another post but I really do feel like Sue uses so much metaphor and flowery language that it could be considering inappropriate and some what insincere. I think she uses it as a way to further fictionalise Dylan and distance herself from it because she so desperately wants to cling to her memory of him and not the truth of who he was and what he did, do you know what I mean?

I know I sound so cold hearted. And maybe it was the way I was raised, and why I can see where the Harris family are coming from.
My own father was raised by military parents so he's got that very stiff upper lip, straight to the point attitude.
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