The "psychopath" and the "little, lost puppy dog".

I'm sure this has been discussed on the forum somewhere, but lately it's been hounding my thoughts again. If you're even somewhat interested in Columbine related research online, I'm sure you've all seen the Cullen theory spouted in numerous YouTube comments, blogs and news articles.

The "fact" that Eric was a psychopath.

The "fact" that Dylan was some depressed, innocent follower that is nearly an angel.

It's pretty mind boggling that Cullen has basically re written history. The number of people that repeat his drivel verbatim, seems to grow hourly. Is this because his book was the best publicized? Maybe because people like the idea of a bad guy influencing a poor, Damsel Dylan?

I'd like to think it's just a lack of independent thought, and some of these people will soon come to realize they've been lied to. I personally do not buy the convenient psychopath theory. If anything, I think Dylan was the more convincing, more accomplished liar.

And when I see people saying that Dylan barely shot anyone, had second thoughts etc, I want to pull my hair out. He was clearly enjoying himself. He was clearly going for up close- in your face type of kills. I hope I'm not alone with my opinions?

I won't deny that Eric seemed to display some psychopathic tendencies, but that doesn't make him a psychopath. If we looked and tried hard enough, we could probably put these qualities onto anyone. And to give him this diagnosis post-mortem is irresponsible because people are going to believe it, and you can't accurately give that kind of diagnosis without actually seeing the patient. Importantly, Eric displayed some traits that go against this idea of him being a psychopath (like Sparky). It's not so cut and dry as Cullen makes it out to be.

eli27 wrote:

I won't deny that Eric seemed to display some psychopathic tendencies, but that doesn't make him a psychopath. If we looked and tried hard enough, we could probably put these qualities onto anyone. And to give him this diagnosis post-mortem is irresponsible because people are going to believe it, and you can't accurately give that kind of diagnosis without actually seeing the patient. Importantly, Eric displayed some traits that go against this idea of him being a psychopath (like Sparky). It's not so cut and dry as Cullen makes it out to be.

I agree. There are a lot of mental illnesses that mirror some of the traits of the definition of a psychopath.

The post mortem diagnosis has always seemed not only irresponsible, but also an easy out for people to try to explain how someone could do something like this.

I think the evidence against psychopathy weighs far more than the evidence for it. Not only was it done after Eric's death, it was done before it's acceptable -age wise- in the mental health field. A lot of "experts" use his lying as evidence, yet he himself stated that he did it to keep himself out of hot water. NOT for the sake of lying.

I don't understand how Dylan can't be thrown into this diagnosis as well.. Considering he seems to be more accomplished, sneaky etc. Not to mention the fact that he seems to have reveled in the actual killings, where Eric expressed his need to distance himself, comparing the victims to Doom characters. This is one of the reasons I've always thought the basement tapes were suppressed. Can't have Satan Harris come across as sympathetic, can they?

It's just frustrating to see so many people parroting Cullen's biased, juvenile theories as fact.

Violenta wrote:

The post mortem diagnosis has always seemed not only irresponsible, but also an easy out for people to try to explain how someone could do something like this.

I think the evidence against psychopathy weighs far more than the evidence for it. Not only was it done after Eric's death, it was done before it's acceptable -age wise- in the mental health field. A lot of "experts" use his lying as evidence, yet he himself stated that he did it to keep himself out of hot water. NOT for the sake of lying.

I don't understand how Dylan can't be thrown into this diagnosis as well.. Considering he seems to be more accomplished, sneaky etc. Not to mention the fact that he seems to have reveled in the actual killings, where Eric expressed his need to distance himself, comparing the victims to Doom characters. This is one of the reasons I've always thought the basement tapes were suppressed. Can't have Satan Harris come across as sympathetic, can they?

It's just frustrating to see so many people parroting Cullen's biased, juvenile theories as fact.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Eric was a psychopath. Plain and simple. Maybe a more complex version but in the end, he was a psychopath. He was going to kill even the people he hung out and associated with by bombing. That in itself makes him a complete psychopath.

Brooks mother even said for a second Dylan thought Eric was going to turn on him in the basement tapes just because Dylan was part Jew. That's psychopath shit.

Sane One wrote:

Eric was a psychopath. Plain and simple. Maybe a more complex version but in the end, he was a psychopath. He was going to kill even the people he hung out and associated with by bombing. That in itself makes him a complete psychopath.

Brooks mother even said for a second Dylan thought Eric was going to turn on him in the basement tapes just because Dylan was part Jew. That's psychopath shit.

I disagree with this. A psychopath wouldn't care if they inflicted pain upon others. Eric was worried about what this would do to his parents. He also did have friends that he didn't want to hurt. Although, I do agree he wouldn't lose much sleep over any of them getting killed but he did (to a degree) care about others. And Eric was also compassionate towards pets/animals. Something else I doubt a psychopath would do.

And also, Eric left behind many clues that he was hoping he'd get caught or something would happen so that they wouldn't go through with it.

And I really wouldn't take anything Judy Brown said about Eric as evidence. She didn't like the kid from the get-go. I'm not saying she didn't have reason not to like him, Eric did threaten her child and tried to hurt Brooks by busting out his car window, but come on now, how could she tell what the heck Dylan and Eric were thinking by watching a video? And I believe all Eric said was something along the lines of that being 'too bad' that Dylan was part Jewish.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I absolutely agree.

I may as well chime in with my usual thoughts. Psychopath does not mean that the person in question is completely devoid of emotional attachments. It means that the person has a reduced lack of empathy and remorse compared to the norm.

As I have said before in this thread, it isn't as simple as to say he either was or wasn't a psychopath.

He displayed some psychopathic behaviour, but he also displayed some 'anti-psychopathic' behaviour.

With him being dead there is no way we can really know or give him an accurate diagnosis, it would be wrong to try to do so.

Cullen's diagnosis of Eric as a psychopath was not even his own opinion--it was the opinion of Dr. Frank Ochberg, Dr. Peter Langman, Dr. Robert Hare, and Dwayne Fuselier, the FBI profiler.

Doctors perform postmortem diagnoses all the time. Every medical and forensic authority that's looked at the massacre said Eric's a psychopath. Hare, the person who invented the category of psychopath, even linked Eric's diagnosis on his site.

How can you say Eric's not a psychopath when the person who invented the category endorses the diagnosis?

Perhaps because everyone wants to believe he was a psychopath. Most humans want to think that only a psychopath could plan out and execute such a horrible event. I bet those doctors think James Holmes is one too.

This is a good opportunity to go over sociopathy vs. psychopathy.

1. They describe the same patterns of behavior: a reduced lack of empathy and remorse that goes outside of normal human behavior.

2. Those who prefer the term sociopathy ascribe the antisocial behavior to social causes, while those who prefer the term psychopathy believe that a mental disorder is the cause.

lasttrain wrote:

How can you say Eric's not a psychopath when the person who invented the category endorses the diagnosis?

Oh ok so some people have given him a diagnosis without ever meeting him ... gotta believe that then!!

This person's opinion isn't the be-all and end-all, and they never met Eric. I am not saying that Eric was not a psychopath at all, I am in fact agreeing that he displayed some tendencies BUT also displayed behaviour that argued against the diagnosis. It is possible to show tendencies/be on the spectrum, but not be simply a psychopath. Just because this person you speak of is an expert on the definition of a psychopath, doesn't mean they are an expert on Eric. I would like to see this person's research and justification. Just because doctors diagnose postmortem all the time, doesn't mean they are correct or accurate. Of course with physical conditions you have the visible evidence right infront of you, but mental disorders are an altogether different matter. And bearing in mind that Eric is such a well-known and influencial figure, I would say that (especially with so many arguments both for and against, this is not a clear or obvious diagnosis - and if you cannot consider that it is not, then you obviously are not considering all evidence) a postmortem diagnosis is in this case particularly irresponsible.

You use the word 'opinion' a lot, and that's because their diagnosis isn't fact, only their belief. This arguement may continue well past your death and my death, but at the end of the day, and with the evidence available now, nobody can say for sure. Opinions, opinions, opinions, that's all it is.

Dwayne Fuselier is very biased because his two sons went to CHS and he spent several hours that first day thinking one of his son's had been killed.It was very unprofessional of him not to excuse himself from the case.

We shouldn't just will the terms psychopathy/sociopathy right out of existence because they aren't agreed upon as being diagnosable mental disorders. Maybe that's not what's happening in this thread, but that's the vibe I'm getting right now.

Undyne wrote:

We shouldn't just will the terms psychopathy/sociopathy right out of existence because they aren't agreed upon as being diagnosable mental disorders.   Maybe that's not what's happening in this thread, but that's the vibe I'm getting right now.

I'm not saying that psychopathy isn't a diagnosable mental disorder, I'm saying that I don't think Eric was in full a psychopath, but that the information available isn't enough to give a 100% accurate postmortem diagnosis.

My problem with these threads is that people often equate "psychopath" with, "Someone who doesn't feel emotions,"  and thus Eric should not be considered to be one because he displayed emotions and cared about his dog or whatever.  That's not what psychopath means.

Overconfidence - Eric may have built up this godlike, confident character in his writings and home videos, but in normal social situations, during which he is not sheltered from the reactions and behaviours of his peers, he appears to be a different person. Take the wall of jocks, I would hardly say that his body language displayed such a quality as overconfidence. This links with another characteristic of psychopathy; absence/lack of nervousness. This is where my argument that we don't have enough evidence to diagnose either way comes in - one may interpret his behaviour in the footage as normal and of a joking manor, yet another may see it as surrendering and fearsome.

Inability to plan - As we know, Eric, along with Dylan, planned NBK for a solid year. A common characteristic among psychopaths is a lack of ability to do so. This one speaks for itself.

Inability to feel remorse - Like you said above, psychopathy is not linked to lack of emotion as a whole. It is, however, linked to a lack of remorse. While Eric did show a lack of remorse for his victims, he did in fact act (again, open to interpretation) remorseful when saying goodbye: 'everyone I love, I'm really sorry about all this', 'that's it. sorry. goodbye'. Maybe he wasn't being sincere, but once again the evidence here is open to opinion and not enough to go on alone.

So, as I keep saying, a lot of this is open to opinions and different analyses. I have plenty more to say on the matter, however I don't have time to put more in this post. But yes, he shows characteristics of psychopathy, but he also fits criteria that would work against the diagnosis. What it comes down to is that we don't have enough to go on (maybe the Basement Tapes would shed some more light), and ergo an accurate post-mortem diagnosis based solely on the evidence available would not be possible.

eli27 wrote:

Overconfidence - Eric may have built up this godlike, confident character in his writings and home videos, but in normal social situations, during which he is not sheltered from the reactions and behaviours of his peers, he appears to be a different person. Take the wall of jocks, I would hardly say that his body language displayed such a quality as overconfidence. This links with another characteristic of psychopathy; absence/lack of nervousness. This is where my argument that we don't have enough evidence to diagnose either way comes in - one may interpret his behaviour in the footage as normal and of a joking manor, yet another may see it as surrendering and fearsome.

Inability to plan - As we know, Eric, along with Dylan, planned NBK for a solid year. A common characteristic among psychopaths is a lack of ability to do so. This one speaks for itself.

Inability to feel remorse - Like you said above, psychopathy is not linked to lack of emotion as a whole. It is, however, linked to a lack of remorse. While Eric did show a lack of remorse for his victims, he did in fact act (again, open to interpretation) remorseful when saying goodbye: 'everyone I love, I'm really sorry about all this', 'that's it. sorry. goodbye'. Maybe he wasn't being sincere, but once again the evidence here is open to opinion and not enough to go on alone.

So, as I keep saying, a lot of this is open to opinions and different analyses. I have plenty more to say on the matter, however I don't have time to put more in this post. But yes, he shows characteristics of psychopathy, but he also fits criteria that would work against the diagnosis. What it comes down to is that we don't have enough to go on (maybe the Basement Tapes would shed some more light), and ergo an accurate post-mortem diagnosis based solely on the evidence available would not be possible.

When you get a chance, you should share the rest of your thoughts. I find your post very interesting. Personally, I do not believe Eric was a Psychopath. I don't believe Eric had enough of the characteristics to be labeled one. Ted Bundy would be the perfect example of a Psychopath.

Jenn wrote:

eli27 wrote:

Overconfidence - Eric may have built up this godlike, confident character in his writings and home videos, but in normal social situations, during which he is not sheltered from the reactions and behaviours of his peers, he appears to be a different person. Take the wall of jocks, I would hardly say that his body language displayed such a quality as overconfidence. This links with another characteristic of psychopathy; absence/lack of nervousness. This is where my argument that we don't have enough evidence to diagnose either way comes in - one may interpret his behaviour in the footage as normal and of a joking manor, yet another may see it as surrendering and fearsome.

Inability to plan - As we know, Eric, along with Dylan, planned NBK for a solid year. A common characteristic among psychopaths is a lack of ability to do so. This one speaks for itself.

Inability to feel remorse - Like you said above, psychopathy is not linked to lack of emotion as a whole. It is, however, linked to a lack of remorse. While Eric did show a lack of remorse for his victims, he did in fact act (again, open to interpretation) remorseful when saying goodbye: 'everyone I love, I'm really sorry about all this', 'that's it. sorry. goodbye'. Maybe he wasn't being sincere, but once again the evidence here is open to opinion and not enough to go on alone.

So, as I keep saying, a lot of this is open to opinions and different analyses. I have plenty more to say on the matter, however I don't have time to put more in this post. But yes, he shows characteristics of psychopathy, but he also fits criteria that would work against the diagnosis. What it comes down to is that we don't have enough to go on (maybe the Basement Tapes would shed some more light), and ergo an accurate post-mortem diagnosis based solely on the evidence available would not be possible.

When you get a chance, you should share the rest of your thoughts. I find your post very interesting. Personally, I do not believe Eric was a Psychopath. I don't believe Eric had enough of the characteristics to be labeled one. Ted Bundy would be the perfect example of a Psychopath.

Thanks Jenn On paper it's easy to find a way to put these atributes of psychopathy onto him, but if you really think about how he acted in the small amount of videos we have of him being 'loose' in an everday school situation, not so much. I think this could be partly due to the fact that what we are basing our opinion on is a character that Eric built up to give him the confidence, and we will never have the real Eric back to study/properly diagnose. Trying to compare Bundy and Eric personalitywise, and I'm coming up pretty short. I will definitely post further very soon.