Those who doubt that Eric was a psychopath...

...are in for some rough days.

They're throwing Eric under the bus all over again - writing him off as a crazy boy.

I'm not going to bash Susan Klebold in the way that I've bashed Dave Cullen, but her book is going to shape the popular narrative of Columbine in the same way that Cullen's did. Eric was the big bad leader who dragged sad little emo Dylan into his web.

I've been arguing with the Cullenistas for seven years now. Now I'm going to have to start quarreling with the Kleboldistas.

But let's not forget that, even in the early days after the massacre, the media tried to make Dylan out to be Eric's pawn. There is a strain of pro-Dylan bias in Columbine journalism going all the way back to 4/20.

Maybe one day, if it turns out that someone out there does have a copy of the basement tapes, we'll be able to see the bloodthirsty Dylan that has never seen the light of day. I hope we will.

Sometimes I wonder whether we're simply going to have to accept the fact that the popular narrative is and probably always will be that Eric was the psycho leader and Dylan was the emo follower.

There will always be those who question that narrative and try to find the truth for themselves, but the drooling masses, by and large, will cling to that trite explanation.

I, for one, will never see Cullen as anything other than a hustler and a hack. And I will never stop saying that as loud and often as I can.

Well we will have to see how it goes when the book is released tomorrow

The book is over 300 pages - the first half of the book Sue progresses only 6 months from the shooting which covers 4/20/99 to about 10/20/99

I'm not sure why you're so upset that Susan has made an educated guess that Eric was a psychopath. She must have researched psychopathy at some point during the last 16 years.

Did she release a sneak peek of her book or something? I mean she didn't really rail into him or his parents during the interview, aside from making the guess that Eric was indeed a psychopath.

If Eric was a virus, Dylan was a bug chaser.  So which is worse?  The purported psychopath who couldn't help what he was, or his purported groupie who sought him out in hopes that his majikal evil-fairydust would rub off on him?

ETA: Even within its own framework it doesn't make sense.

We've always had it rough ever since this psychopath and the depressive crap came out.
I'm so upset and disappointed that Sue would do this.
I understand that she wants to make her son look as good as possible, but even though I have a deep love and caring for E&D, the truth is that Dylan also executed people. And was a full and willing participant in a failed bombing that was supposed to kill a couple of hundred people.
If Eric was a psychopath, so was Dylan.

PaintItBlack wrote:

We've always had it rough ever since this psychopath and the depressive crap came out.
I'm so upset and disappointed that Sue would do this.
I understand that she wants to make her son look as good as possible, but even though I have a deep love and caring for E&D, the truth is that Dylan also executed people. And was a full and willing participant in a failed bombing that  was supposed to kill a couple of hundred people.
If Eric was a psychopath, so was Dylan.

PaintItBlack wrote:

the truth is that Dylan also executed people. And was a full and willing participant in a failed bombing that was supposed to kill a couple of hundred people.

If Eric was a psychopath, so was Dylan.

This is it. That's all there is to it.

If they have to neatly categorize why this tragedy occurred in such a tedious, unimaginitive fashion, then the categorization must apply to both of them.

The truth of the matter is that it's not that simplistic, and it never will be, no matter how desperately these drones try to force everyone around them to think it is.

gasolinechild wrote:

If Eric was a virus, Dylan was a bug chaser.  So which is worse?  The purported psychopath who couldn't help what he was, or his purported groupie who sought him out in hopes that his majikal evil-fairydust would rub off on him?

ETA: Even within its own framework it doesn't make sense.

PaintItBlack wrote:

We've always had it rough ever since this psychopath and the depressive crap came out.
I'm so upset and disappointed that Sue would do this.
I understand that she wants to make her son look as good as possible, but even though I have a deep love and caring for E&D, the truth is that Dylan also executed people. And was a full and willing participant in a failed bombing that  was supposed to kill a couple of hundred people.
If Eric was a psychopath, so was Dylan.

This whole idea that Dylan didn't realise how real it was until the actual day…come on! They had been buying (getting people to) weapons and practicing with them with the purpose of going NBK.

Do people still really believe Dylan got wrapped up in some theatrics?

astrospace92 wrote:

gasolinechild wrote:

If Eric was a virus, Dylan was a bug chaser.  So which is worse?  The purported psychopath who couldn't help what he was, or his purported groupie who sought him out in hopes that his majikal evil-fairydust would rub off on him?

ETA: Even within its own framework it doesn't make sense.

PaintItBlack wrote:

We've always had it rough ever since this psychopath and the depressive crap came out.
I'm so upset and disappointed that Sue would do this.
I understand that she wants to make her son look as good as possible, but even though I have a deep love and caring for E&D, the truth is that Dylan also executed people. And was a full and willing participant in a failed bombing that  was supposed to kill a couple of hundred people.
If Eric was a psychopath, so was Dylan.

This whole idea that Dylan didn't realise how real it was until the actual day…come on! They had been buying (getting people to) weapons and practicing with them with the purpose of going NBK.

Do people still really believe Dylan got wrapped up in some theatrics?

I've never seen anyone ever even hint at that narrative being true. In fact the only time I've seen it talked about is in regards to Sue, and she had every right to question the "whys" of Dylan's actions. The truth is Eric wasnt a legit sociopath, but he wanted us to think of him as one. Eric's journal is filled with hate and anger of the most extreme kind. Upon taking a step back though its quite easy to see his writing for what it is: insignificant teenage ranting from a kid who had no clue what he was talking about. The journal can pretty much be summed up as "Eric Harris was smarter and tougher than you" because that's all he really tried to get across to us.

Its weird how there's a disconnect between his "Book of God" and the Basement Tapes. Both were clearly meant to be seen by the law/media/public and yet Eric contradicts himself through them. A badass tough alpha male who intends to kill everyone in writing, and a weeping child who misses his old friends back home on video. How can anyone see all the contradictions and still think Eric was a remorseless psychopath? It doesn't add up straight no matter how you try and force the psychopath narrative. Eric openly admits to wishing he was a sociopath and he constantly bragged about lying and deceiving people. In his eyes the journal was his ultimate masterpiece and he was correct in thinking people would fall for his lies.

Sometimes humans are walking and talking contradictions but Eric took it to the extreme. The consistency of his contradictions are the reason many people believe he was psycho. I will always be under the belief Eric sparked Columbine. His actions before and during the event lead me to believe this. He controlled the entire tragedy from beginning to end. Eric was the first one to wake up that day. Everything was improvised after the bombs failed to off and who led the way? Eric Harris by yelling GO GO GO to kick start everything. Eric killed more and fired off more shots. He was the leader. Come on now, he was the one shooting at the pipe bombs while Dylan was right there as well. Think about that for a second. What if they actually blew up? He technically would have been the one who would have taken Dylan's life too.

Eric ran the show whether people want to believe it or not. That's the sad truth. Dylan was his puppet.

Just one comment--the Eric psychopath story is not a "popular narrative."

It was a finding of multiple doctors, who have years of research experience on thousands of cases.

You can disagree with it if you want, but you should at least correctly recognize its source.

I think Sue is stuck in time where her son was 8-12 years old. Maybe that way it's easier for her to cope with all this. She still sees him as this little, shy and innocent boy he once was before high school. The truth is, Dylan changed in a way she certainly wouldn't like him to change. Also, I don't think we should be too hard on her for perceiving him that way since he was VERY good at hiding his frustration but I'm sure she's "pleased" by the idea of people defending her son in a way and blaming his evil friend instead. Mass murder is too serious of a thing to be simply tricked into. I will never believe that Eric had to somehow convince him to do that. There's proof that killing spree was on Dylan's mind way before their plan. They were both homicidal. Equally; and they both wanted to die. That's the way they chose to do it. They made each other confident by being by each other's side. I dont think they'd had done it by themselves.

Vii wrote:

I think Sue is stuck in time where her son was 8-12 years old. Maybe that way it's easier for her to cope with all this. She still sees him as this little, shy and innocent boy he once was before high school. The truth is, Dylan changed in a way she certainly wouldn't like him to change. Also, I don't think we should be too hard on her for perceiving him that way since he was VERY good at hiding his frustration but I'm sure she's "pleased" by the idea of people defending her son in a way and blaming his evil friend instead. Mass murder is too serious of a thing to be simply tricked into. I will never believe that Eric had to somehow convince him to do that. There's proof that killing spree was on Dylan's mind way before their plan. They were both homicidal. Equally; and they both wanted to die. That's the way they chose to do it. They made each other confident by being by each other's side. I dont think they'd had done it by themselves.

I agree. I also think those 6 months after the massacre have something to do with it. For 6 months after April she had nothing but rumors and theories to live off of. She thought it was an impulse decision, a moment of madness, something that was spur of the moment. Then she saw the BT and those thoughts were shoved out of her mind quickly. No one wants to think about their child committing such an atrocity. I know it is super hard for all of the families.

It's well known Eric had multiple AOL names and constantly ranted and raved about shit on AOL dating all the way back to 1996. Dylan was the guy who ratted Eric out in the first place for some of his rants and threats against Brooks Brown. Think about it, if this was a guy who had serious ambitions to go on a killing spree at the time especially at his high school, he would have not done such a thing.

Eric worked him like a puppet. That is my belief.

Sane One wrote:

It's well known Eric had multiple AOL names and constantly ranted and raved about shit on AOL dating all the way back to 1996. Dylan was the guy who ratted Eric out in the first place for some of his rants and threats against Brooks Brown. Think about it, if this was a guy who had serious ambitions to go on a killing spree at the time especially at his high school, he would have not done such a thing.

Eric worked him like a puppet. That is my belief.

What about the theory that Aaron Brown was supposedly the one to report Eric's website to the cops anonymously? I have heard that it was actually Aaron that alerted the Browns to the website and not Dylan. Anyone else have any more info on that?

Sane One wrote:

It's well known Eric had multiple AOL names and constantly ranted and raved about shit on AOL dating all the way back to 1996. Dylan was the guy who ratted Eric out in the first place for some of his rants and threats against Brooks Brown. Think about it, if this was a guy who had serious ambitions to go on a killing spree at the time especially at his high school, he would have not done such a thing.

Eric worked him like a puppet. That is my belief.

Brooks lied about that. It was actually his brother, Aaron, who found Eric's website. Dylan did not tell Brooks anything. Brooks and Dylan weren't even that close in high school.

he lied in his book? where do you know this? i never heard of this.

em81 wrote:

he lied in his book? where do you know this? i never heard of this.

I read it in one of the reports. That a 'concerned citizen' AKA Aaron Brown found Eric's website and wrote it down on a piece of paper and called the police and they came to his house. The Brown's gave them a bunch of papers they printed out from Eric's website. In the report, it said the handwriting belonged to Aaron Brown. It doesn't mention anything about Dylan Klebold.

Sane One wrote:

It's well known Eric had multiple AOL names and constantly ranted and raved about shit on AOL dating all the way back to 1996. Dylan was the guy who ratted Eric out in the first place for some of his rants and threats against Brooks Brown. Think about it, if this was a guy who had serious ambitions to go on a killing spree at the time especially at his high school, he would have not done such a thing.

Eric worked him like a puppet. That is my belief.

I believe Dylan worked Eric like a puppet. Eric didn't have any of his own friends (they were all Dylan's first) and he was a follower, copying everything Dylan did. He took advantage of his existing anger problems (which is exhibited on his websites).

It's pretty obvious the real depressive was Eric, and the true psychopath was Dylan who had absolutely no remorse for his (future) actions in the basement tapes, whereas Eric broke down and started crying thinking about his friends in other states and how he wanted to visit them one last time. Dylan didn't care either way about anybody else except for him.

And so what if he drew hearts in his 'journal'? You don't think a psychopath is capable of WANTING someone else? It's clear to me at least he didn't want 'love', he wanted a female partner to go on a shooting spree with. He wanted Columbine to replicate NBK to a T. He even said shortly before the massacre "I never thought I'd be doing NBK with Eric".

The "Dylan was a depressive and Eric was a psychopath" is just what pseudo intellectual psychologists like to tell themselves because it makes more "sense" -- these people obviously didn't see the way Eric behaved in the cafeteria video (where he is playing with an early model cellphone). If he was a psychopath, why didn't he approach the girl? Why did he have a fear of rejection? You do know psychopaths have NO fear, right?

Dylan was the one who fooled us all. Eric actually had a chance of getting through high school and possibly being okay with some help. He was careful and systematic with who he tried to portray to people + what he chose to write in his journals, but the real him was someone who had always been crying for help and still tried to fit in. I don't think that makes him a psychopath let alone him being one.

@Sane One "Eric Harris by yelling GO GO GO to kick start everything. Eric killed more and fired off more shots. He was the leader. Come on now, he was the one shooting at the pipe bombs while Dylan was right there as well." I have a feeling that this entire occurence was out of obligation - coming from the fact there wasn't any choice left but to go all out with a bang. I felt that Eric had to psych himself out internally to keep going and make it as badass as possible. I mean, why else would Dyl have to keep pumping up Eric and the mood towards the end

So my point with saying this aswell is that if Eric didn't have to go through with NBK or if they got caught halfway he certainly wouldn't mind it. But he had to. I felt that Dyl was the one who wanted NBK to happen.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] "It's pretty obvious the real depressive was Eric, and the true psychopath was Dylan who had absolutely no remorse for his (future) actions in the basement tapes, whereas Eric broke down and started crying thinking about his friends in other states and how he wanted to visit them one last time. Dylan didn't care either way about anybody else except for him." Thank youuuuuu. that's it right there. that's all. It's plain obvious.

Ivan wrote:

Sane One wrote:

It's well known Eric had multiple AOL names and constantly ranted and raved about shit on AOL dating all the way back to 1996. Dylan was the guy who ratted Eric out in the first place for some of his rants and threats against Brooks Brown. Think about it, if this was a guy who had serious ambitions to go on a killing spree at the time especially at his high school, he would have not done such a thing.

Eric worked him like a puppet. That is my belief.

I believe Dylan worked Eric like a puppet. Eric didn't have any of his own friends (they were all Dylan's first) and he was a follower, copying everything Dylan did. He took advantage of his existing anger problems (which is exhibited on his websites).

It's pretty obvious the real depressive was Eric, and the true psychopath was Dylan who had absolutely no remorse for his (future) actions in the basement tapes, whereas Eric broke down and started crying thinking about his friends in other states and how he wanted to visit them one last time. Dylan didn't care either way about anybody else except for him.

And so what if he drew hearts in his 'journal'? You don't think a psychopath is capable of WANTING someone else? It's clear to me at least he didn't want 'love', he wanted a female partner to go on a shooting spree with. He wanted Columbine to replicate NBK to a T. He even said shortly before the massacre "I never thought I'd be doing NBK with Eric".

The "Dylan was a depressive and Eric was a psychopath" is just what pseudo intellectual psychologists like to tell themselves because it makes more "sense" -- these people obviously didn't see the way Eric behaved in the cafeteria video (where he is playing with an early model cellphone). If he was a psychopath, why didn't he approach the girl? Why did he have a fear of rejection? You do know psychopaths have NO fear, right?

Nice post and I agree with mostly everything. I'm not really sure though if I think Dylan was a true psychopath. Psychopaths are usually full of themselves and they rarely commit suicide. Though I will admit that Dylan showed more signs of it than Eric but Dylan did seem to hate himself and psychopaths normally don't. We'll never know for sure though because they are both dead.

Jenn wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Sane One wrote:

It's well known Eric had multiple AOL names and constantly ranted and raved about shit on AOL dating all the way back to 1996. Dylan was the guy who ratted Eric out in the first place for some of his rants and threats against Brooks Brown. Think about it, if this was a guy who had serious ambitions to go on a killing spree at the time especially at his high school, he would have not done such a thing.

Eric worked him like a puppet. That is my belief.

I believe Dylan worked Eric like a puppet. Eric didn't have any of his own friends (they were all Dylan's first) and he was a follower, copying everything Dylan did. He took advantage of his existing anger problems (which is exhibited on his websites).

It's pretty obvious the real depressive was Eric, and the true psychopath was Dylan who had absolutely no remorse for his (future) actions in the basement tapes, whereas Eric broke down and started crying thinking about his friends in other states and how he wanted to visit them one last time. Dylan didn't care either way about anybody else except for him.

And so what if he drew hearts in his 'journal'? You don't think a psychopath is capable of WANTING someone else? It's clear to me at least he didn't want 'love', he wanted a female partner to go on a shooting spree with. He wanted Columbine to replicate NBK to a T. He even said shortly before the massacre "I never thought I'd be doing NBK with Eric".

The "Dylan was a depressive and Eric was a psychopath" is just what pseudo intellectual psychologists like to tell themselves because it makes more "sense" -- these people obviously didn't see the way Eric behaved in the cafeteria video (where he is playing with an early model cellphone). If he was a psychopath, why didn't he approach the girl? Why did he have a fear of rejection? You do know psychopaths have NO fear, right?

Nice post and I agree with mostly everything. I'm not really sure though if I think Dylan was a true psychopath. Psychopaths are usually full of themselves and they rarely commit suicide. Though I will admit that Dylan showed more signs of it than Eric but Dylan did seem to hate himself and psychopaths normally don't. We'll never know for sure though because they are both dead.

I believe Dylan was a sociopath, maybe not a psychopath. Eric I don't know what he was - but it probably wasn't a psychopath.

"Sociopaths tend to be nervous and easily agitated. They are volatile and prone to emotional outbursts, including fits of rage. They are likely to be uneducated and live on the fringes of society, unable to hold down a steady job or stay in one place for very long. It is difficult but not impossible for sociopaths to form attachments with others. Many sociopaths are able to form an attachment to a particular individual or group, although they have no regard for society in general or its rules. In the eyes of others, sociopaths will appear to be very disturbed. Any crimes committed by a sociopath, including murder, will tend to be haphazard, disorganized and spontaneous rather than planned."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Does anyone know if there are any experts who actually do not believe that Eric was a psychopath?

I wonder if Eric knew how suicidal and depressed Dylan was all along.  I sometimes think that Dylan's suicide wishes are what propelled Eric into his planning of NBK. Maybe Eric was already having these thoughts of revenge and such, but then seeing his friend suffer so much from depression and his hatred for the school made Eric feel inspired to turn his fantasies into a reality. I don't think Eric was the one pushing for NBK initially.  I get the feeling that Dylan was.......but Eric was more pragmatic, organized, and methodical.......so he's the one who wrote about the planning of everything.

Freezingmoon wrote:

Eric was more pragmatic, organized, and methodical.......so he's the one who wrote about the planning of everything.

Agree. Eric was definitely more "adroit" than him therefore he was the one who took care of most things during preparations. Reading some of the stuff on here makes me cringe at times. The word "psychopath" is being thrown around more than it should be and unfortunately because of that and because of the" easy diagnosis" some random media experts make, it supposedly has made Eric's family believe that he really was a true psychopath. Plus, blaming Eric for Dylan's involvement makes as much sense as blaming video games and pop culture for this whole event.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] "Agree. Eric was definitely more "adroit" than him therefore he was the one who took care of most things during preparations. Reading some of the stuff on here makes me cringe at times. The word "psychopath" is being thrown around more than it should be and unfortunately because of that and because of the" easy diagnosis" some random media experts make, it supposedly has made Eric's family believe that he really was a true psychopath. Plus, blaming Eric for Dylan's involvement makes as much sense as blaming video games and pop culture for this whole event." Yup thank you agreed.

I know everyone is just speculating here as none of us will really know for sure whether or not E&D were psychopaths, but for those saying that Eric isn't a psychopath based on some tears he shed in one of the final tapes, do you realise psychopaths still have the ability to cry crocodile tears (possibility of putting on yet another performance in his tape as E&D were prone to) and in some exceptional cases, even genuine tears?

bubbles wrote:

I know everyone is just speculating here as none of us will really know for sure whether or not E&D were psychopaths, but for those saying that Eric isn't a psychopath based on some tears he shed in one of the final tapes, do you realise psychopaths still have the ability to cry crocodile tears (possibility of putting on yet another performance in his tape as E&D were prone to) and in some exceptional cases, even genuine tears?

It's not just that - psychopaths have no fear of rejection or denial. Eric didn't even approach a girl due to fear of rejection. "She doesn't like me anyways" is what he said. If he were a psychopath, he would approach her anyway not CARING about a future rejection.

He may have had narcissistic traits however - meaning a rejection like that would cut deeper than usual for an average human being.

Yep, totally agree with you on the narcissistic trait aspect, but Eric did actually relentlessly pursue girls who had previously made it clear to him that they weren't interested in dating him.

bubbles wrote:

Yep, totally agree with you on the narcissistic trait aspect, but Eric did actually relentlessly pursue girls who had previously made it clear to him that they weren't interested in dating him.

Well Eric was quite shallow I believe - he never would have approached girls who would accept because he would have felt he was above them. He wanted a jock's lifestyle without the sport.

Darrell Scott said in one of the family's books about Rachel that he had come to believe that Eric was, deep down, a sensitive soul and a deep thinker.
I agree with that assessment.I think Eric felt things very deeply and didn't have the emotional resources to bounce back from rejection ,disappointment and major upheaval especially over and over again.I believe that was the beginning of all his problems.

I've never believed Eric was a psychopath. I also believe Dave Cullen's book is mostly a dirty lie about both boys, but that's just my opinion.

Eric's autopsy report revealed self-injury marks on his arms. Psychopaths don't hurt themselves like that. If they get hurt, it's never deliberate.

Also, it's his suicide. Every psychopath I've read about did not attempt suicide - instead, they fought until the bitter end. Ted Bundy is my big example. Innocent until his death, even in the face of damning evidence. So many videos of him at trial show adult temper tantrums because nobody believed him. He got upset for being sentenced to death for a crime he committed. Eric simply shot himself, no fight at all.

And yeah, Eric was scared of rejection. Not typical of a psychopath.

Also, Dylan wasn't a sad, small sunshine boy dealing with depression. Honestly, to me he sounds schizotypal, and there were reports of him being rude to people he worked with. I need to find the article I read a while ago that stated that Dylan actually hit a female coworker. On top of that, yeah, Eric had his websites, but journal entries from 1997 show that Dylan had mentioned shooting up his school.

Salander1654 wrote:

I've never believed Eric was a psychopath. I also believe Dave Cullen's book is mostly a dirty lie about both boys, but that's just my opinion.

Eric's autopsy report revealed self-injury marks on his arms. Psychopaths don't hurt themselves like that. If they get hurt, it's never deliberate.

Also, it's his suicide. Every psychopath I've read about did not attempt suicide - instead, they fought until the bitter end. Ted Bundy is my big example. Innocent until his death, even in the face of damning evidence. So many videos of him at trial show adult temper tantrums because nobody believed him. He got upset for being sentenced to death for a crime he committed. Eric simply shot himself, no fight at all.

And yeah, Eric was scared of rejection. Not typical of a psychopath.

Also, Dylan wasn't a sad, small sunshine boy dealing with depression. Honestly, to me he sounds schizotypal, and there were reports of him being rude to people he worked with. I need to find the article I read a while ago that stated that Dylan actually hit a female coworker. On top of that, yeah, Eric had his websites, but journal entries from 1997 show that Dylan had mentioned shooting up his school.

All of this! I could have written this post myself. I completely agree with everything you said here. And when I think about a true psychopath, I always think of Bundy as well. Someone so full of himself that he declined a plea deal for life in prison over the death penalty because he was sure he was going to beat the charges and go free.

I've never heard of true psychopaths committing suicide either or even attempting to commit suicide, let alone committing the worst kind of suicide imaginable. Shooting yourself in the mouth with a shotgun. It's obvious Eric hated himself. And even though he tried to put on an act in his journal, his self hatred shined through many times. Him saying how he picks on people that look like him so he can rag on himself. Him not understanding why everyone hates him when he tries to be nice. People always cutting him out of fun things because they thought he was weird. Psychopaths do not think this way. Rejection clearly upset Eric.

And no, Dylan wasn't just a sad, suicidal depressive. People who are just suicidal and depressed only want to hurt themselves. They don't have a desire to take other people with them. Something else was there when it comes to Dylan's mental health. I get so tired of hearing 'well he was just depressed'. No, he wasn't just depressed.

Anyhow, great post!

Psychopaths also do not seek fame like Eric wished for. Also, a trademark of psychopathy is violence toward animals as a child and Eric didn't exhibit this. In addition to this,psychopaths are usually crappy employees and Eric was a great employee.... Much better than Dylan in fact. Eric has more traits of narcissistic personality than psychopathy

Jenn wrote:

Salander1654 wrote:

I've never believed Eric was a psychopath. I also believe Dave Cullen's book is mostly a dirty lie about both boys, but that's just my opinion.

Eric's autopsy report revealed self-injury marks on his arms. Psychopaths don't hurt themselves like that. If they get hurt, it's never deliberate.

Also, it's his suicide. Every psychopath I've read about did not attempt suicide - instead, they fought until the bitter end. Ted Bundy is my big example. Innocent until his death, even in the face of damning evidence. So many videos of him at trial show adult temper tantrums because nobody believed him. He got upset for being sentenced to death for a crime he committed. Eric simply shot himself, no fight at all.

And yeah, Eric was scared of rejection. Not typical of a psychopath.

Also, Dylan wasn't a sad, small sunshine boy dealing with depression. Honestly, to me he sounds schizotypal, and there were reports of him being rude to people he worked with. I need to find the article I read a while ago that stated that Dylan actually hit a female coworker. On top of that, yeah, Eric had his websites, but journal entries from 1997 show that Dylan had mentioned shooting up his school.

All of this! I could have written this post myself. I completely agree with everything you said here. And when I think about a true psychopath, I always think of Bundy as well. Someone so full of himself that he declined a plea deal for life in prison over the death penalty because he was sure he was going to beat the charges and go free.

I've never heard of true psychopaths committing suicide either or even attempting to commit suicide, let alone committing the worst kind of suicide imaginable. Shooting yourself in the mouth with a shotgun. It's obvious Eric hated himself. And even though he tried to put on an act in his journal, his self hatred shined through many times. Him saying how he picks on people that look like him so he can rag on himself. Him not understanding why everyone hates him when he tries to be nice. People always cutting him out of fun things because they thought he was weird. Psychopaths do not think this way. Rejection clearly upset Eric.

And no, Dylan wasn't just a sad, suicidal depressive. People who are just suicidal and depressed only want to hurt themselves. They don't have a desire to take other people with them. Something else was there when it comes to Dylan's mental health. I get so tired of hearing 'well he was just depressed'. No, he wasn't just depressed.

Anyhow, great post!

It's very interesting how wrongly these two have been portrayed in the media ever since. Eric as a manipulative psychopath and Dylan as a very vulnerable and naive kid who was somewhat taken advantage of. It's comfortable for people to think that way so they don't bother to dig deeper. It's been 17 years of justifying (to some extent) one and putting all the blame on another so unfortunately, I don't think this picture that was painted of them (as partners-in-crime as well as individuals) will ever change.

Vii wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Salander1654 wrote:

I've never believed Eric was a psychopath. I also believe Dave Cullen's book is mostly a dirty lie about both boys, but that's just my opinion.

Eric's autopsy report revealed self-injury marks on his arms. Psychopaths don't hurt themselves like that. If they get hurt, it's never deliberate.

Also, it's his suicide. Every psychopath I've read about did not attempt suicide - instead, they fought until the bitter end. Ted Bundy is my big example. Innocent until his death, even in the face of damning evidence. So many videos of him at trial show adult temper tantrums because nobody believed him. He got upset for being sentenced to death for a crime he committed. Eric simply shot himself, no fight at all.

And yeah, Eric was scared of rejection. Not typical of a psychopath.

Also, Dylan wasn't a sad, small sunshine boy dealing with depression. Honestly, to me he sounds schizotypal, and there were reports of him being rude to people he worked with. I need to find the article I read a while ago that stated that Dylan actually hit a female coworker. On top of that, yeah, Eric had his websites, but journal entries from 1997 show that Dylan had mentioned shooting up his school.

All of this! I could have written this post myself. I completely agree with everything you said here. And when I think about a true psychopath, I always think of Bundy as well. Someone so full of himself that he declined a plea deal for life in prison over the death penalty because he was sure he was going to beat the charges and go free.

I've never heard of true psychopaths committing suicide either or even attempting to commit suicide, let alone committing the worst kind of suicide imaginable. Shooting yourself in the mouth with a shotgun. It's obvious Eric hated himself. And even though he tried to put on an act in his journal, his self hatred shined through many times. Him saying how he picks on people that look like him so he can rag on himself. Him not understanding why everyone hates him when he tries to be nice. People always cutting him out of fun things because they thought he was weird. Psychopaths do not think this way. Rejection clearly upset Eric.

And no, Dylan wasn't just a sad, suicidal depressive. People who are just suicidal and depressed only want to hurt themselves. They don't have a desire to take other people with them. Something else was there when it comes to Dylan's mental health. I get so tired of hearing 'well he was just depressed'. No, he wasn't just depressed.

Anyhow, great post!

It's very interesting how wrongly these two have been portrayed in the media ever since. Eric as a manipulative psychopath and Dylan as a very vulnerable and naive kid who was somewhat taken advantage of. It's comfortable for people to think that way so they don't bother to  dig deeper. It's been 17 years of justifying (to some extent) one and putting all the blame on another so unfortunately, I don't think this picture that was painted of them (as partners-in-crime as well as individuals) will ever change.

The latest person that is guilty of all this is none other than Sue Klebold.I understand how as a Mother she would believe that to cope and live with her son's actions but I am angry and disappointed that she would put this out there in a book publicly.

Jenn wrote:

Salander1654 wrote:

I've never believed Eric was a psychopath. I also believe Dave Cullen's book is mostly a dirty lie about both boys, but that's just my opinion.

Eric's autopsy report revealed self-injury marks on his arms. Psychopaths don't hurt themselves like that. If they get hurt, it's never deliberate.

Also, it's his suicide. Every psychopath I've read about did not attempt suicide - instead, they fought until the bitter end. Ted Bundy is my big example. Innocent until his death, even in the face of damning evidence. So many videos of him at trial show adult temper tantrums because nobody believed him. He got upset for being sentenced to death for a crime he committed. Eric simply shot himself, no fight at all.

And yeah, Eric was scared of rejection. Not typical of a psychopath.

Also, Dylan wasn't a sad, small sunshine boy dealing with depression. Honestly, to me he sounds schizotypal, and there were reports of him being rude to people he worked with. I need to find the article I read a while ago that stated that Dylan actually hit a female coworker. On top of that, yeah, Eric had his websites, but journal entries from 1997 show that Dylan had mentioned shooting up his school.

All of this! I could have written this post myself. I completely agree with everything you said here. And when I think about a true psychopath, I always think of Bundy as well. Someone so full of himself that he declined a plea deal for life in prison over the death penalty because he was sure he was going to beat the charges and go free.

I've never heard of true psychopaths committing suicide either or even attempting to commit suicide, let alone committing the worst kind of suicide imaginable. Shooting yourself in the mouth with a shotgun. It's obvious Eric hated himself. And even though he tried to put on an act in his journal, his self hatred shined through many times. Him saying how he picks on people that look like him so he can rag on himself. Him not understanding why everyone hates him when he tries to be nice. People always cutting him out of fun things because they thought he was weird. Psychopaths do not think this way. Rejection clearly upset Eric.

And no, Dylan wasn't just a sad, suicidal depressive. People who are just suicidal and depressed only want to hurt themselves. They don't have a desire to take other people with them. Something else was there when it comes to Dylan's mental health. I get so tired of hearing 'well he was just depressed'. No, he wasn't just depressed.

Anyhow, great post!

Eric's death was worse than some of the victims.

Ivan wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Salander1654 wrote:

I've never believed Eric was a psychopath. I also believe Dave Cullen's book is mostly a dirty lie about both boys, but that's just my opinion.

Eric's autopsy report revealed self-injury marks on his arms. Psychopaths don't hurt themselves like that. If they get hurt, it's never deliberate.

Also, it's his suicide. Every psychopath I've read about did not attempt suicide - instead, they fought until the bitter end. Ted Bundy is my big example. Innocent until his death, even in the face of damning evidence. So many videos of him at trial show adult temper tantrums because nobody believed him. He got upset for being sentenced to death for a crime he committed. Eric simply shot himself, no fight at all.

And yeah, Eric was scared of rejection. Not typical of a psychopath.

Also, Dylan wasn't a sad, small sunshine boy dealing with depression. Honestly, to me he sounds schizotypal, and there were reports of him being rude to people he worked with. I need to find the article I read a while ago that stated that Dylan actually hit a female coworker. On top of that, yeah, Eric had his websites, but journal entries from 1997 show that Dylan had mentioned shooting up his school.

All of this! I could have written this post myself. I completely agree with everything you said here. And when I think about a true psychopath, I always think of Bundy as well. Someone so full of himself that he declined a plea deal for life in prison over the death penalty because he was sure he was going to beat the charges and go free.

I've never heard of true psychopaths committing suicide either or even attempting to commit suicide, let alone committing the worst kind of suicide imaginable. Shooting yourself in the mouth with a shotgun. It's obvious Eric hated himself. And even though he tried to put on an act in his journal, his self hatred shined through many times. Him saying how he picks on people that look like him so he can rag on himself. Him not understanding why everyone hates him when he tries to be nice. People always cutting him out of fun things because they thought he was weird. Psychopaths do not think this way. Rejection clearly upset Eric.

And no, Dylan wasn't just a sad, suicidal depressive. People who are just suicidal and depressed only want to hurt themselves. They don't have a desire to take other people with them. Something else was there when it comes to Dylan's mental health. I get so tired of hearing 'well he was just depressed'. No, he wasn't just depressed.

Anyhow, great post!

Eric's death was worse than some of the victims.

Yes, I agree.

Psychopath isnt 'crazy' its not about writing people off as crazy. On the contrary, they argue that school shooters are usually mentally ill, but at the same time, rational enough to carry them out. Having a mental illness isnt 'crazy'. Its perfectly possible to have a mental illness and still be rational on many levels.

Not that psychopathy is a mental illness.

Psychopaths can commit suicide, but its extremely rare. Also, you can diagnose or evaluate people you havent met, but its not necessarily ethical.

IDK how this plays out in regards to a school shooting, though.

Yet, a school shooter isnt Just someone with a disorder. Obviously, this shouldnt fly under the radar. A psychopath may be emotionally abuse and what have you, but what makes a violent psychopath?


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In other words, when I Google it seems like its a misconception that psychopaths do not kill themselves. Im not really sure wether its actually the likelihood that they will kill themselves that people confuse with the idea that psychopaths cant commit suicide.

Yet, when you google it, there are tons of articles and research papers suggesting otherwise, so I assume that this is likely a misconception. Its not that it never happens(apparantly it does). I think it suggests that its rare for a psychopath to kill themselves.

Wouldnt it make sense that Eric killed himself, when you think about it, though?

Norwegian wrote:

Psychopaths can commit suicide, but its extremely rare. Also, you can diagnose or evaluate people you havent met, but its not necessarily ethical.

IDK how this plays out in regards to a school shooting, though.

Yet, a school shooter isnt Just someone with a disorder. Obviously, this shouldnt fly under the radar. A psychopath may be emotionally abuse and what have you, but what makes a violent psychopath?


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Only if they are cornered by the police or have no way out. I doubt they'd commit suicide as a two person pact.

Norwegian wrote:

In other words, when I Google it seems like its a misconception that psychopaths do not kill themselves. Im not really sure wether its actually the likelihood that they will kill themselves that people confuse with the idea that psychopaths cant commit suicide.

Yet, when you google it, there are tons of articles and research papers suggesting otherwise, so I assume that this is likely a misconception. Its not that it never happens(apparantly it does). I think it suggests that its rare for a psychopath to kill themselves.

Wouldnt it make sense that Eric killed himself, when you think about it, though?

What they mean is they won't kill themselves over having depressive thoughts. Dylan didn't either, by the way, and it's become quite apparent your argument is that Dylan was a sad little follower of Eric despite thinking up 4/20 before him and enjoying the shooting more than he did.

Just like it makes sense Dylan killed himself. I find it ridiculous to assume a cold blooded murderer who killed five people on his own was a "follower" while trying to erase away any damage he caused.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

In other words, when I Google it seems like its a misconception that psychopaths do not kill themselves. Im not really sure wether its actually the likelihood that they will kill themselves that people confuse with the idea that psychopaths cant commit suicide.

Yet, when you google it, there are tons of articles and research papers suggesting otherwise, so I assume that this is likely a misconception. Its not that it never happens(apparantly it does). I think it suggests that its rare for a psychopath to kill themselves.

Wouldnt it make sense that Eric killed himself, when you think about it, though?

What they mean is they won't kill themselves over having depressive thoughts. Dylan didn't either, by the way, and it's become quite apparent your argument is that Dylan was a sad little follower of Eric despite thinking up 4/20 before him and enjoying the shooting more than he did.

Just like it makes sense Dylan killed himself. I find it ridiculous to assume a cold blooded murderer who killed five people on his own was a "follower" while trying to erase away any damage he caused.

Dylan was depressed, thats a fact. To what extent he was a follower can probably be debated, but I doubt that theres much denying that they could have done it wo each other. As for psychopaths and suicide, they do commit suicide based on what Ive read so far. Only difference, apparantly, is that its not very commonplace, but the research Ive looked says they do, sometimes. So IDK wether people gets them mixed up.

To fully understand a school shooter is impossible, imo. Peter Langmann argued, even that Dylan Klebold was the most complex person he had looked at. Frank Ochberg worked on the profiles of both the two. Ill post it if I find it. I dont necessarily see school shooters as evil. I merely look at many of them as 'trapped' in a hopeless situation which might contribute to acts of mass violence.

[quote="Ivan"]

Norwegian wrote:

Psychopaths can commit suicide, but its extremely rare. Also, you can diagnose or evaluate people you havent met, but its not necessarily ethical.

IDK how this plays out in regards to a school shooting, though.

Yet, a school shooter isnt Just someone with a disorder. Obviously, this shouldnt fly under the radar. A psychopath may be emotionally abuse and what have you, but what makes a violent psychopath?


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Only if they are cornered by the police or have no way out. I doubt they'd commit suicide as a two person pact. [/quote
'While the study has some interesting findings, the conclusions they reach, and the way they are presented – in my opinion – verges on irresponsible.  There is an overwhelming body of evidence that autistic people end up victimized far more often that we victimize others.  There’s no prior association between being autistic and aggressive violence toward others.  Articles like the one in the Post lead to further exclusion and victimization from a fearful, ignorant public'

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

In other words, when I Google it seems like its a misconception that psychopaths do not kill themselves. Im not really sure wether its actually the likelihood that they will kill themselves that people confuse with the idea that psychopaths cant commit suicide.

Yet, when you google it, there are tons of articles and research papers suggesting otherwise, so I assume that this is likely a misconception. Its not that it never happens(apparantly it does). I think it suggests that its rare for a psychopath to kill themselves.

Wouldnt it make sense that Eric killed himself, when you think about it, though?

What they mean is they won't kill themselves over having depressive thoughts. Dylan didn't either, by the way, and it's become quite apparent your argument is that Dylan was a sad little follower of Eric despite thinking up 4/20 before him and enjoying the shooting more than he did.

Just like it makes sense Dylan killed himself. I find it ridiculous to assume a cold blooded murderer who killed five people on his own was a "follower" while trying to erase away any damage he caused.

Dylan was depressed, thats a fact. To what extent he was a follower can probably be debated, but I doubt that theres much denying that they could have done it wo each other. As for psychopaths and suicide, they do commit suicide based on what Ive read so far. Only difference, apparantly, is that its not very commonplace, but the research Ive looked says they do, sometimes. So IDK wether people gets them mixed up.

To fully understand a school shooter is impossible, imo. Peter Langmann argued, even that Dylan Klebold was the most complex person he had looked at. Frank Ochberg worked on the profiles of both the two. Ill post it if I find it. I dont necessarily see school shooters as evil. I merely look at many of them as 'trapped' in a hopeless situation which might contribute to acts of mass violence.

It's not a fact as it isn't backed up by any actual concrete evidence, just what investigators speculated during the early workings of the case.

As for your assertion that Dylan or Eric couldn't have committed an act of violence later on in life without each other I disagree. The traits and behavior they showed at a young age proves to me they could have ended up being a different kind of cold blooded murderer in later life if they were nurtured in a certain way.

Charlie Brandt killed his mother and attempted to kill his father with a gun in 1971 at the age of 13. He ended up becoming a serial killer murdering several women in the 1980s and 1990s culminating in his own murder-suicide in 2004 where he killed, dismembered and beheaded his niece and stabbed his wife to death.

An early indication of violence or propensity to it cannot be ignored. There are several examples.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

In other words, when I Google it seems like its a misconception that psychopaths do not kill themselves. Im not really sure wether its actually the likelihood that they will kill themselves that people confuse with the idea that psychopaths cant commit suicide.

Yet, when you google it, there are tons of articles and research papers suggesting otherwise, so I assume that this is likely a misconception. Its not that it never happens(apparantly it does). I think it suggests that its rare for a psychopath to kill themselves.

Wouldnt it make sense that Eric killed himself, when you think about it, though?

What they mean is they won't kill themselves over having depressive thoughts. Dylan didn't either, by the way, and it's become quite apparent your argument is that Dylan was a sad little follower of Eric despite thinking up 4/20 before him and enjoying the shooting more than he did.

Just like it makes sense Dylan killed himself. I find it ridiculous to assume a cold blooded murderer who killed five people on his own was a "follower" while trying to erase away any damage he caused.

Dylan was depressed, thats a fact. To what extent he was a follower can probably be debated, but I doubt that theres much denying that they could have done it wo each other. As for psychopaths and suicide, they do commit suicide based on what Ive read so far. Only difference, apparantly, is that its not very commonplace, but the research Ive looked says they do, sometimes. So IDK wether people gets them mixed up.

To fully understand a school shooter is impossible, imo. Peter Langmann argued, even that Dylan Klebold was the most complex person he had looked at. Frank Ochberg worked on the profiles of both the two. Ill post it if I find it. I dont necessarily see school shooters as evil. I merely look at many of them as 'trapped' in a hopeless situation which might contribute to acts of mass violence.

It's not a fact as it isn't backed up by any actual concrete evidence, just what investigators speculated during the early workings of the case.

As for your assertion that Dylan or Eric couldn't have committed an act of violence later on in life without each other I disagree. The traits and behavior they showed at a young age proves to me they could have ended up being a different kind of cold blooded murderer in later life if they were nurtured in a certain way.

Charlie Brandt killed his mother and attempted to kill his father with a gun in 1971 at the age of 13. He ended up becoming a serial killer murdering several women in the 1980s and 1990s culminating in his own murder-suicide in 2004 where he killed, dismembered and beheaded his niece and stabbed his wife to death.

An early indication of violence or propensity to it cannot be ignored. There are several examples.

No, but its a theory thats been supported by many,from what I know, and its not something that they just pulled out of their asses. Both Immelman, Fuselier, Ochberg, Langmann, Mary Ellen O'Toole have argued either that he was a psychopath or suffering from severe ASPD. Are we all going to argue that this is somehow a coincidence? That doesnt sit well with me. And, atleast, according to the ABC programme damaged masculinity and Erics egomania seemed to have gone hand in hand.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

In other words, when I Google it seems like its a misconception that psychopaths do not kill themselves. Im not really sure wether its actually the likelihood that they will kill themselves that people confuse with the idea that psychopaths cant commit suicide.

Yet, when you google it, there are tons of articles and research papers suggesting otherwise, so I assume that this is likely a misconception. Its not that it never happens(apparantly it does). I think it suggests that its rare for a psychopath to kill themselves.

Wouldnt it make sense that Eric killed himself, when you think about it, though?

What they mean is they won't kill themselves over having depressive thoughts. Dylan didn't either, by the way, and it's become quite apparent your argument is that Dylan was a sad little follower of Eric despite thinking up 4/20 before him and enjoying the shooting more than he did.

Just like it makes sense Dylan killed himself. I find it ridiculous to assume a cold blooded murderer who killed five people on his own was a "follower" while trying to erase away any damage he caused.

Dylan was depressed, thats a fact. To what extent he was a follower can probably be debated, but I doubt that theres much denying that they could have done it wo each other. As for psychopaths and suicide, they do commit suicide based on what Ive read so far. Only difference, apparantly, is that its not very commonplace, but the research Ive looked says they do, sometimes. So IDK wether people gets them mixed up.

To fully understand a school shooter is impossible, imo. Peter Langmann argued, even that Dylan Klebold was the most complex person he had looked at. Frank Ochberg worked on the profiles of both the two. Ill post it if I find it. I dont necessarily see school shooters as evil. I merely look at many of them as 'trapped' in a hopeless situation which might contribute to acts of mass violence.

It's not a fact as it isn't backed up by any actual concrete evidence, just what investigators speculated during the early workings of the case.

As for your assertion that Dylan or Eric couldn't have committed an act of violence later on in life without each other I disagree. The traits and behavior they showed at a young age proves to me they could have ended up being a different kind of cold blooded murderer in later life if they were nurtured in a certain way.

Charlie Brandt killed his mother and attempted to kill his father with a gun in 1971 at the age of 13. He ended up becoming a serial killer murdering several women in the 1980s and 1990s culminating in his own murder-suicide in 2004 where he killed, dismembered and beheaded his niece and stabbed his wife to death.

An early indication of violence or propensity to it cannot be ignored. There are several examples.

I never said that they Couldnt have commit violence later in life. What I did say is that they were dependant on each other in order to go through with it. I dont see how Dylan personality traits fits that of a serial killer, either. But the point is, at this point I have hardly seen anything which suggests that psychopaths doesnt commit suicide. Peter Langmann, on the contrary, argues that they certainly do, and in combination with being depressed. He actually said that the psychopathic shooters, in fact, were more likely to kill themselves than a school shooter thats merely psychotic.