Dylan the psychopath

"(Psychopaths are) people who I think, at the core, lack a real concern and emotional connection with people.  They don't seem to understand that other people have rights.  I think this is partly because of a stunning incapacity - a lack of capacity - for empathy.  I think if you wanted a shorthand term, it would be people who lack a conscience." - Robert Hare

Hmm ... let me see what I can do here.

Dylan Klebold lacked empathy for others. He didn't seem to feel too guilty about the prospect of murdering hundreds of people, many if not most of whom he knew personally.

Read these quotes and tell me that he was a sweet little puppy dog:

"It's humans that I hate," Klebold says.

[...]

"It's humanity," Dylan Klebold says, flipping an obscene gesture toward the camera. "Look at what you made," he tells the world.

"You're fucking shit, you humans, and you need to die," he says.

[...]

"When you find a body of one," Klebold says, looking straight into the camera, "he's a sophomore . . . Look for his jaw. It won't be on his body."

ALSO: "He doesn't deserve the jaw evolution gave him." - Klebold, on wanting to kill a sophomore boy, after telling investigators to "look for his jaw. It won't be on his body."

[...]

"Whatever happened to natural selection?" - Klebold, ranting that he hates humans.

[...]

"I just know I want to kill the fuckers who fucked with me," Klebold says.

[...]

Then Harris says, "Let's talk about our parents for a minute."

Klebold begins coldly. "It's my life," he says. "They gave it to me, I can do with it what I want. . . . If they don't like it, I'm sorry, but that's too bad."

Harris is gentler. "They might have made some mistakes that they weren't really aware of in their life with me, but they couldn't have helped it."

[...]

"That is cool, dude. Every faggot's last sight." - Klebold, as Harris sights a gun's laser light on him.

[...]

"Oh, just shooting people."

Eric was more empathetic toward his family and friends than Dylan was in the BT transcript. I think people just get hung up on the journals....Dylan's little hearts and girls he was in love with.  So we see Dylan showing emotions.....but where's the empathy?

Here is what Dr. Peter Langman wrote about Dylan:

Dylan Klebold, age 17

Dylan teamed up with Eric Harris in the attack at Columbine High School in Jefferson County, Colorado. Dylan was not as flagrantly psychotic as the other psychotic school shooters. Until the release of his journal in July 2006 there was little indication of disturbed thought processes. Also, whereas the other psychotic shooters appear to have been schizophrenic, Dylan appears to have had schizotypal personality disorder.

As is often the case with schizotypals, Dylan struck many people as odd. The thousands of interviews conducted by the Jefferson County Sheriff’s Office (JCSO) in the wake of the attack contain numerous comments from Dylan’s peers about his odd behavior, his greasy, dirty hair, his unusual clothes,
and his general “goofiness” (JCSO, 1999, pp. 172, 444, 556, 785, 5,036, 7,231, 9,820, 16,408). He was markedly shy and socially awkward (Bartels & Crowder, 1999). He wrote about his social
difficulties in his journal: “nobody accepting me even though I want to be accepted, me doing badly and being intimidated in any and all sports, me looking weird and acting shy — BIG problem” (JCSO, 1999, p. 26,390).

Dylan’s journal also provides evidence that his thought process was disturbed (JCSO, 1999, pp. 26,385–26,417). He misused language in a number of ways. He created neologisms, distorting
actual words into words that do not exist. He had tangled grammar and odd passages of inarticulate content. This never became “word salad” as in the speech of schizophrenics, but given that Dylan was a bright young man, his misuse of language is noteworthy.

Dylan also had strange ideas that appear to have been delusions.

His alienation was so extreme that he apparently saw himself as not being human. He wrote, “Being made a human without the possibility of BEING human” and “Humanity is the something I long for” (JCSO, 1999, p. 26,397). He also viewed himself as a god-like being. For example, he wrote, “me is a
god” and “I’d rather have nothing than be nothing / Some say godliness isn’t nothing” (JCSO, 1999, 26,397). Elsewhere he wrote, “some god I am” (JCSO, 1999, p. 26,400).

Dylan exhibited paranoia (JCSO, 1999, p. 26,390, 26,392).

He thought that everyone in his life hated him and felt like he was being conspired against. He also wrote about being persecuted by God, interpreting simple events as a conspiracy against him. This did not seem to be a fixed delusion, however, but rather a transient response to particular events.

Dylan was not an abused child. Nor was he psychopathic.

Dylan’s odd presentation, social anxiety, mild paranoia, misuse of language, and fantasy/delusional thinking all suggest that he had schizotypal personality disorder.

Quote :

He created neologisms, distorting actual words into words that do not exist.

All words exist.

A spoken word is a sound that means something. A written word is a bunch of lines and shapes that stand for a spoken word.

Some words are not recognized as English words, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

If I say that sklsjkls means tree, then sklsjkls means tree, at least in LPorterish. Words have no inherent meaning other than that which we ascribe to them.

Quote :

He had tangled grammar and odd passages of inarticulate content.

Overrated is good grammar ... sense, only drones worry about making.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to float away to the halcyon.

Freezingmoon wrote:

Eric was more empathetic toward his family and friends than Dylan was in the BT transcript. I think people just get hung up on the journals....Dylan's little hearts and girls he was in love with.  So we see Dylan showing emotions.....but where's the empathy?

And, more to the point, where's the evidence that he saw the girls as anything other than dehumanized objects of affection?

To Dylan, the girls he idealized weren't living, breathing human beings with thoughts and desires and needs of their own ... they were like these magic orbs that existed solely to make him happy.

@LPorter,
I largely agree.
For me , it boils down to a simple formula.
If Eric was a psychopath, so is Dylan.
To me, nothing else makes any sense.

LPorter101 wrote:

Freezingmoon wrote:

Eric was more empathetic toward his family and friends than Dylan was in the BT transcript. I think people just get hung up on the journals....Dylan's little hearts and girls he was in love with.  So we see Dylan showing emotions.....but where's the empathy?

And, more to the point, where's the evidence that he saw the girls as anything other than dehumanized objects of affection?

To Dylan, the girls he idealized weren't living, breathing human beings with thoughts and desires and needs of their own ... they were like these magic orbs that existed solely to make him happy.

I wanna be a magic orb that exists solely to make him happy... /fangirl

He drew fluffy heartagrams, and he also drew fluffy atomic bomb clouds, knives, guns, and something that looks suspiciously like a pair of outstretched hands holding a bloody (sacrificial) heart. Cute!

PaintItBlack wrote:

I largely agree.
For me , it boils down to a simple formula.
If Eric was a psychopath, so is Dylan.
To me, nothing else makes any sense.

Exactly this.

Peter Langman wrote:

"Dylan also had strange ideas that appear to have been delusions."

When smart people sound like crazy people to dumb shrinks. The phrase God of Sadness is what we call a metaphor, and his self-styling as a non-human longing to be human is a reference to a definition of "human experience" that he felt excluded from.

You know how today, there's the idea that some kind of universal human experience exists, where everyone has a specific kind of emotional connection with everyone else, and this is supposed to make human beings react the same way to certain things? And anyone whose experiences don't fit within the narrow scope of acceptable is considered a "psychopath" instead of a real human? That's what Dylan was writing about.

"Others' achievements are tormentations." How horrible. He lacked the capacity to share in the happiness of others. Such deficient altruism. Very nonempathy. Much psychopath. See? SEE?! I can play postmortem psychotherapist too!

Quote :

"Others' achievements are tormentations." How horrible. He lacked the capacity to share in the happiness of others. Such deficient altruism. Very nonempathy. Much psychopath. See? SEE?! I can play postmortem psychotherapist too!

Yeah.

I don't want to go too far in bashing Dylan ... I feel for both boys. I do. But I hate how Eric always gets ripped to shreds.

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Robert Hare wrote:

(Psychopaths are) people who I think, at the core, lack a real concern and emotional connection with people.  They don't seem to understand that other people have rights.

[On the morning after the van break-in] Tom woke before I did. When Dylan got up, they took a long walk. Afterward, Tom told me Dylan had been very, very angry—at the situation, the cops, his school, the unfairness of life. He was so angry that he didn’t seem to accept or acknowledge the wrongness of what he had done.

When I’d heard the whole story, I asked my question again. “You committed a crime against a person. How could you do something so morally wrong?” His answer shocked me. He said, “It was not against a person. It was against a company. That’s why people have insurance.” My jaw dropped. I cried out, “Dyl! Stealing is a crime against a person! Companies are made up of people!” I tried to appeal to his sense of reason. “If one of our renters decided to steal a light fixture from one of our apartments, would it be a crime against a rental company, or against us?”

Dylan relented, “Okay, okay. I get the point.” But I didn’t stop. I explained that the owner of the van would have to pay a deductible to the insurance company. “There’s no such thing as a victimless crime, Dylan.” I’d heard a story about a programmer who figured out a way to siphon tiny, nearly untraceable amounts of money from calculations that left an odd penny. “Before long, you’ll know enough to do something similar,” I told him. “Do you think that’s ethical?” He said he knew it was not, and assured me he’d never do anything of the kind.

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How's this for heartless?

When I heard Dylan’s car arrive home from the prom after 4 a.m., I roused myself to talk with him. Though I was tired, I wanted to reach out.

We met at the foot of the stairs. He looked exhausted but happy, a kid who’d had a big night. As usual, he was reluctant to volunteer information, so I peppered him with questions about what he’d eaten and whom he’d hung out with. I was excited to find out he’d danced. He thanked me for paying for tickets and clothes, and I was pleasantly surprised by his effusiveness when he told me he’d had the best night of his life.

I had kissed him good night and turned to go back to bed when he stopped me. “I want to show you something.” He pulled a metal flask from his pocket. Someone with a little skill and a lot of solder had fixed a large crack at the top with a messy patch.

“What is this?” I demanded. “Where did you get this thing?”

He said he’d found it. When I asked what it contained, Dylan said it held peppermint schnapps, and that he’d rather not say where he’d gotten the alcohol. I was about to launch into my well-worn concerns about drinking when Dylan held up a hand, silencing me.

“I want you to know you can trust me and you can trust Robyn. I had filled this so we could drink it tonight. I want you to see only a little tiny bit is missing.” He handed me the flask, and insisted I examine it closely, as if he were going to do a magic trick with it. “We had a little bit to drink at the beginning of the evening but no more after that. See? It’s close to the top.” I acknowledged the flask was nearly full.

“I just wanted you to know you can trust me,” he said again. Still a little shaken, I thanked him for sharing the information with me before adding, “I do trust you.” Then I headed off to bed, reassured. I’d never expected him to get through high school without experimenting with alcohol, after all. At least he’d told me about it.

I’ve given a lot of thought to that private moment between mother and son in the stillness of the night. In retrospect, I sometimes think that engaging me in that conversation about the flask was among the cruelest tricks Dylan ever played on me. Was he consciously manipulating me into trusting him, even as he was planning a massacre? Was he mocking me? If he was preparing to die within a few days, why was it necessary to establish my trust in him? Did he need reassurance, or was he trying to prevent me from searching his room?

I once shared these thoughts with a psychologist who then asked me, “How do you know he wasn’t in earnest? Maybe he did want to earn your approval, and it had nothing to do with what was to follow.” It’s one of the many things I will never know.

I definitely believe that if you were to analyse both of them without reading the journals, you'd lean on Dylan offering more psychopathic traits. Especially when you look at things like his cold interaction with his mother for example. The prom night incident in which he told her she can trust him was what Psychopaths are all about.

LPorter101 wrote:

To Dylan, the girls he idealized weren't living, breathing human beings with thoughts and desires and needs of their own ... they were like these magic orbs that existed solely to make him happy.

This. This is a really strange thing to me. For someone who speaks about love and women so much only to remove themselves from that very world in which the ultimate object of desire exists is a real mistery. Honestly , I may be wrong , but I think DEEP DOWN love, real love was never actually that important. I think the ultimate desire was to be able to actually love himself . But deep down I think he couldn't.

LPorter101 wrote:

Read these quotes and tell me that he was a sweet little puppy dog

Now I don't like cherry picking much so I'll counter with the two (sort-of) witness testimonies:

1. When Devon had a car accident and he stopped and went to check on her right away.
2. (Apparently) Devon (or someone else , can't remember who) scratched his/her knee I believe during a soccer (?) game and he called a time-out to help with the wound.

Those are two instances that we know of where he showed empathy but we weren't told too much about the events so we can't elaborate much but just by the two of those it shows he did feel that others have rights and feelings. Never mind the countless instances that weren't released to the public.

After thinking about this, the best I can come up with is that Dylan told his Mom this as extra insurance to try to make sure his Mom wouldn't snoop around much the last couple of days.
By the last week or so they were so committed to the plan that I'm not sure there was anything that could have turned them away.
Him saying that because somehow he wanted his Mom's approval separate from NBK as the psychologist theorized to Sue makes no sense to me.
And yes, that was cold but they were going to do what was necessary to pull this plan off, especially after they had went so far with it.
Sadly, it just ledt his Mom with one more thing to always wonder about.

To those of you who are questioning the diagnosis--

Could you give some indication as to why the general public should believe a message board poster over an entire team of doctors?

not every killer is a psychopath. i don´t think dylan was a psychopath. because there were moments where he cared for his mother and friends. but this doesn´t mean he was sane. that´s simply another thing.

I don't think or believe either boy was a psychopath, but to those who won't swallow the Cullen koolaid, an equal a case could be made for Dylan as for Eric.

lasttrain wrote:

To those of you who are questioning the diagnosis--

Could you give some indication as to why the general public should believe a message board poster over an entire team of doctors?

I stand by the same question.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Doctors don't know everything.They aren't always right.They also tend towards extreme group think,which can be a big problem.

Magnaphoria wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

To those of you who are questioning the diagnosis--

Could you give some indication as to why the general public should believe a message board poster over an entire team of doctors?

I stand by the same question.

Could you give some indication as to why we should believe something just because a doctor claims it? Doctors are often wrong, and so are most people, which is why you should find your own points and your own evidence, and create your own argument that you can back up. It doesn't matter if everyone else (including all the doctors in the world) thought something else before you began your own investigation, as long as you can properly back it up. The reason for the debate about whether or not Eric is a psychopath going on and on and on is that we don't have the evidence to give an accurate diagnosis. Doctor or not. Think for yourself and you might just realise that.

Simply because between a person who has had years of studying a certain field over a person who has red a few lines in a book at best , I tend to believe someone who has some experience. Just because a few doctors are wrong doesn't mean all of them are. Else why not just use the same logic on everything?

Why use seatbelts anyway? People died in this world with seatbelts on. Seatbelts aren't safe!
Yeah , that makes no sense , does it? I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, even people with no expertise in a field and I'm saying that I TEND to go for what those doctors say, not that it influences my convictions and beliefs. I'm still perfectly skeptic about quite alot of things but when those doctors say that Eric might've had psycho tendencies I am inclined to nod at that and try to explore that point of view.

@Magnophoria,
Doctor's are still human and can be led by their own emotions and biases like anyone else.There are people out there alive today because they sought out other opinions or treatments against their doctors advice.

In this overseas article, the headline reads "The Mother of the psychopath" .Sue would probably be surprised by that since that's the opposite of what she has tried to portray her son as.

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PaintItBlack wrote:

@Magnophoria,
Doctor's are still human and can be led by their own emotions and biases like anyone else.There are people out there alive today because they sought out other opinions or treatments against their doctors advice.

I think you're viewing this issue as black and white. Trust or don't trust them. I said it's wise to listen to their opinion and maybe be a little on their side but still explore other options , not just say "i completely agree/disagree". In this case I believe Eric possibly had some psycho tendencies. For a long time I thought everyone was exaggerating about Dylan's shyness but when I saw that RNN interview I was shocked and that made me wonder if Eric's angry outbursts (that we have only words as evidence of) might actually be as bad as people described them. And they sound really familiar with a certain someone I know IRL (that I used to consider angry, now mentally ill for real).

Those doctors didn't just base themselves on journals , but on witness accounts from people close to them and came to these conclusions. I'm pretty sure some of them didn't get impressed by Eric's fake journal and figured it's an act, the majority of it. Even acting has some truth behind it. Just like half the joke represents 50% truth as they say. Most likely most of the proof

Magnaphoria wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

@Magnophoria,
Doctor's are still human and can be led by their own emotions and biases like anyone else.There are people out there alive today because they sought out other opinions or treatments against their doctors advice.

I think you're viewing this issue as black and white. Trust or don't trust them. I said it's wise to listen to their opinion and maybe be a little on their side but still explore other options , not just say "i completely agree/disagree". In this case I believe Eric possibly had some psycho tendencies. For a long time I thought everyone was exaggerating about Dylan's shyness but when I saw that RNN interview I was shocked and that made me wonder if Eric's angry outbursts (that we have only words as evidence of) might actually be as bad as people described them. And they sound really familiar with a certain someone I know IRL (that I used to consider angry, now mentally ill for real).

Those doctors didn't just base themselves on journals , but on witness accounts from people close to them and came to these conclusions. I'm pretty sure some of them didn't get impressed by Eric's fake journal and figured it's an act, the majority of it. Even acting has some truth behind it. Just like half the joke represents 50% truth as they say. Most likely most of the proof

Doctors don't generally diagnose a living person by asking their friends about them or reading their journal. Not a single one of these doctors whose opinions you are giving weighted value to ever spoke to Eric or Dylan at all. The problem here is that we have the content of what they said in very specific circumstances and all "witness accounts" are tinged with the knowledge of what they ultimately did. I'd say that there is significant room for error here.

The one thing the doctors definitely do have, is knowledge of psychological disorders. However, unless you've researched and come to the diagnosis on your own, you are basically taking their opinions as fact. Informed opinions, but still just opinions. Can you name any other possible diagnosis that the doctors might have explored for Eric or Dylan and can you explain why those conditions were ruled out?

sscc wrote:

Magnaphoria wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

@Magnophoria,
Doctor's are still human and can be led by their own emotions and biases like anyone else.There are people out there alive today because they sought out other opinions or treatments against their doctors advice.

I think you're viewing this issue as black and white. Trust or don't trust them. I said it's wise to listen to their opinion and maybe be a little on their side but still explore other options , not just say "i completely agree/disagree". In this case I believe Eric possibly had some psycho tendencies. For a long time I thought everyone was exaggerating about Dylan's shyness but when I saw that RNN interview I was shocked and that made me wonder if Eric's angry outbursts (that we have only words as evidence of) might actually be as bad as people described them. And they sound really familiar with a certain someone I know IRL (that I used to consider angry, now mentally ill for real).

Those doctors didn't just base themselves on journals , but on witness accounts from people close to them and came to these conclusions. I'm pretty sure some of them didn't get impressed by Eric's fake journal and figured it's an act, the majority of it. Even acting has some truth behind it. Just like half the joke represents 50% truth as they say. Most likely most of the proof

Doctors don't generally diagnose a living person by asking their friends about them or reading their journal. Not a single one of these doctors whose opinions you are giving weighted value to ever spoke to Eric or Dylan at all. The problem here is that we have the content of what they said in very specific circumstances and all "witness accounts" are tinged with the knowledge of what they ultimately did. I'd say that there is significant room for error here.

The one thing the doctors definitely do have, is knowledge of psychological disorders. However, unless you've researched and come to the diagnosis on your own, you are basically taking their opinions as fact. Informed opinions, but still just opinions. Can you name any other possible diagnosis that the doctors might have explored for Eric or Dylan and can you explain why those conditions were ruled out?

Very good point. And [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], your answer to my post is both ridiculous and irrelevant. I quite clearly made the point that choosing someone to believe is mindless, and that the only way to find and understand the truth is to do your own research and come up with your own evidence backed answer. You saying that believing doctors is best because most of them are right is idiotic, don't just believe someone - actually find out for yourself. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

eli27 wrote:

You saying that believing doctors is best because most of them are right is idiotic, don't just believe someone - actually find out for yourself. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

Again , you're viewing this as black and white. I didn't say believe them and question nothing. On the contrary, I said it's good to trust or somewhat trust what they say but also question the diagnosis they were given. Like 40% believe what they say, 60% believe your own research. Also, you're not talking to brick walls , but to people who have opinions different than you. Just because we believe something else we don't ask for aggressive retaliation from the people who oppose our ideas.

I enjoy researching DK because I think I can relate to him a lot. The way he thinks and acts. Except I have a lot holding me back from acting out on these feelings and thoughts etc to go to the extremes like DK. Anyway I was forced to go to therapy by my mom and the therapist said I am a empath or highly sensitive person HSP which brings about lots of anger issues. To keep it short.

I don't for a second believe Dylan was a sociopath. Sociopaths don't write love lorne journal entries and letters to their crush. Sociopaths have exhibit true narcissm, not narcissm as a defensive mechanism against depression. A sociopath who truly believed himself to be a god would never deprive the world of his/her existence via suicide. A sociopath is a lot less likely to pull a shooting with a friend because doing so would automatically give up half the spotlight. Sociopaths don't feel sadness or shame for being alone because they aren't capable of actual love and affection.

I know this because an ex-beat friend of mine is a diagnosed sociopath. I had to quit talking to him because his lies and behavior was really starting to scare me. I know you can't compare one case to another, but most of the symptoms of psychopathy are across the board. IMO Dylan fits in better under the banner of psychotic and depressive. Not everyone who kills is a psychopath which is why they dropped the "psycho" and started calling it sociopathy. Dylan may have had anger issues, but his violent acts came from a place of depression-boredom. "What fun is life without a little death?"

Quote :

A sociopath who truly believed himself to be a god would never deprive the world of his/her existence via suicide.

That's what I've been saying all along about Eric.

But it's been argued that Eric wasn't a sociopath, he was a psychopath. The reason he wanted to do Columbine was to demonstrate superiority over the human race in the ultimate way. Further proof of this is the whole "Natural Selection" shirt.

I mean I respect your view LPorter, but like I said in another post, believing that Eric wasn't a psychopath means you have to operate under the assumption that 90% of the things he wrote and said and did were just done to put on a show, which is just too outlandish.

Then again, in order to believe he IS a psychopath means you must operate under the assumption that everything he did WASN'T to put on a show, in which case I guess we both don't know for sure.

Magnaphoria wrote:

Simply because between a person who has had years of studying a certain field over a person who has red a few lines in a book at best , I tend to believe someone who has some experience. Just because a few doctors are wrong doesn't mean all of them are. Else why not just use the same logic on everything?

Why use seatbelts anyway? People died in this world with seatbelts on. Seatbelts aren't safe!
Yeah , that makes no sense , does it? I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion, even people with no expertise in a field and I'm saying that I TEND to go for what those doctors say, not that it influences my convictions and beliefs. I'm still perfectly skeptic about quite alot of things but when those doctors say that Eric might've had psycho tendencies I am inclined to nod at that and try to explore that point of view.

How do you know the person evaluating Eric and Dylan has "years of experience"? For all we know they could be fresh out of college. That's not the point though; the point is that it's impossible to diagnose somebody with something (especially psychopathy) postmortem. Especially two children.

If you believe Dylan is little more than a wimp who succumbed to Eric -- than you certainly haven't explored much past their own outline of the case. And just because somebody has a certificate or a degree doesn't make them an expert.

anonacc489 wrote:

But it's been argued that Eric wasn't a sociopath, he was a psychopath. The reason he wanted to do Columbine was to demonstrate superiority over the human race in the ultimate way. Further proof of this is the whole "Natural Selection" shirt.

They are practically the same thing.

It is evident Eric wrote his journal knowing he'd have an audience. When the massacre was taking place, he wasn't ranting and raving. You have to look at Dylan to see those qualities.

anonacc489 wrote:

I mean I respect your view LPorter, but like I said in another post, believing that Eric wasn't a psychopath means you have to operate under the assumption that 90% of the things he wrote and said and did were just done to put on a show, which is just too outlandish.

How is that "too outlandish"? It's actually quite plausible to assume Eric wrote his journal for an audience -- thus didn't project his true thoughts and feelings (or at least not by his own volition). Eric eventually let his emotion(s) seep out in the form of whining towards the end of his journal.

anonacc489 wrote:

Then again, in order to believe he IS a psychopath means you must operate under the assumption that everything he did WASN'T to put on a show, in which case I guess we both don't know for sure.

Or you must operate under the fact Eric was a 17 year old kid writing a journal. What 17 year old is truthful about everything (especially when they have an audience)?

Ivan wrote:

It is evident Eric wrote his journal knowing he'd have an audience. When the massacre was taking place, he wasn't ranting and raving. You have to look at Dylan to see those qualities.

Eric Harris on the Basement Tapes wrote:

Eric and Dylan said then that they wanted to distribute the videos to four news stations. Eric says he's going to his journal and send copies via email to distribute blueprints and maps.

Eric and Dylan sit around and talk about how they are going to send their videos to the media. Eric then says he's going to send copies of his journal to the media. To me, it is clear that he was directing this journal to an audience. Everything else we know about him does not match up to the audience written rants in his journal.

No one in this thread has posted anything that has convinced me I should believe a group of anonymous message board handles over some of the most prestigious doctors in this field.

It's true doctors are sometimes wrong, but none of you have the ability to tell when doctors are wrong. You don't have degrees, you don't have clinical experience, you've never published papers, you haven't evaluated the thousands and thousands of cases they have.

If a group of doctors came forward and said the psychopath diagnosis was wrong for Eric, then I would listen.

Until then, I'm gonna go with the expert consensus on this one.

Jenn wrote:

Ivan wrote:

It is evident Eric wrote his journal knowing he'd have an audience. When the massacre was taking place, he wasn't ranting and raving. You have to look at Dylan to see those qualities.

Eric Harris on the Basement Tapes wrote:

Eric and Dylan said then that they wanted to distribute the videos to four news stations. Eric says he's going to his journal and send copies via email to distribute blueprints and maps.

Eric and Dylan sit around and talk about how they are going to send their videos to the media. Eric then says he's going to send copies of his journal to the media. To me, it is clear that he was directing this journal to an audience. Everything else we know about him does not match up to the audience written rants in his journal.

This is precisely why I believe that, as much as I would like to see the Basement Tapes, I think they would be a bit of a disappointment. The BTs are, for the most part, performance art, not the real E/D in that it was all totally done for a potential future audience. I'm not so sure viewing them would result in any new revelations about the boys' real internal struggles. I always did want to see the video though were Eric apparently cries or tear up a little in discussing his past with friends etc. from before his move to Colorado while he drives alone in his car. Now that would be "appointment viewing".

Perhaps that's why the BTs are kept hidden so as to not incite copy cats or "revolutions" as Eric's dream would be and talks about in the tapes supposedly. That's what I think one difference is between Eric and Dylan. Eric liked to put on a show like a public speaker like Hitler. Where as Dylan "put on a show" just purely to vent his anger and play along I think he didn't really care about Eric's "revolution", wanting followers, etc. or perhaps he thought it was amusing I think ultimately he just wanted his own personal revenge. You could say Eric was more business while Dylan was more personal. I wonder what Eric would have thought about 9/11...?

Jenn wrote:

Ivan wrote:

It is evident Eric wrote his journal knowing he'd have an audience. When the massacre was taking place, he wasn't ranting and raving. You have to look at Dylan to see those qualities.

Eric Harris on the Basement Tapes wrote:

Eric and Dylan said then that they wanted to distribute the videos to four news stations. Eric says he's going to his journal and send copies via email to distribute blueprints and maps.

Eric and Dylan sit around and talk about how they are going to send their videos to the media. Eric then says he's going to send copies of his journal to the media. To me, it is clear that he was directing this journal to an audience. Everything else we know about him does not match up to the audience written rants in his journal.

Exactly, Jenn.
I have to wonder why we can see this so plainly yet these professionals with all this training and experience can't see it at all.I think it's rather they don't want to see it.
They'd just rather write Eric off as a psychopath than try to come up with a fuller,more balanced explanation.
The whole diagnosis is based on his journals.That's it.There is nothing else to base it on.

I honestly believe if anyone was the psychopath it was Dylan.

Sure, Eric ticks the boxes, but who, after death is the one people still like to push as the "sweet innocent boy who was lead astray."

Even after death many people still refuse to believe Dylan was a cold blooded, heartless killer because of the romantic pinning in his journal. Who's to say he didn't create this shy, hopeless romantic persona intentionally so even after death he's somewhat "sympathised" with, while Eric was demonised even when alive (despite being charming and kind when he wanted to be.)

In my opinion, Dylan pulled the wool over everyone's eyes.

I'm not a medical professional, but I am in close personal relationships with diagnosed psychopaths/sociopaths so I'm just drawing on personal experience and I just wanted to through another theory out there.

NOTE: To be honest, I don't know if I believe either Eric or Dylan were psychopaths, as we've established, it's hard to diagnose children, let alone dead ones based off the ramblings in a journal.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Romantic and homicidal aren't exclusive to one another. Love can make people do crazy things.

The dark side of feeling too much is that anger is also a feeling.

Enigma - I love you.... I'll kill you
Reminded me of this song

gasolinechild wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Romantic and homicidal aren't exclusive to one another.  Love can make people do crazy things.

The dark side of feeling too much is that anger is also a feeling.

Of course.

But still doesn't mean he couldn't be a psychopath.

Uh.. That doesnt even make any sense

Norwegian wrote:

Uh.. That doesnt even make any sense

Because you believe the fictional tale pushed by Cullen which involves Dylan being a "depressed follower" despite wanting to murder several hundreds of people and callously executing some students on the day in a way even Eric couldn't replicate.

He murdered five people on his own. That's more than some serial killers murder in total (who suffer from psychopathy, by the way).

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Uh.. That doesnt even make any sense

Because you believe the fictional tale pushed by Cullen which involves Dylan being a "depressed follower" despite wanting to murder several hundreds of people and callously executing some students on the day in a way even Eric couldn't replicate.

He murdered five people on his own. That's more than some serial killers murder in total (who suffer from psychopathy, by the way).

This isnt coming from Cullen. I question some of the stuff he says. Such as 'Eric was able to score the whole fotball- team' or that they werent bullied(honestly, this may or May not be true, because there are many multiple and conflicting sources and Ochberg denies it, yet others have stated differently).

But the idea of the psychopath and depressive came from the investigators.

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Uh.. That doesnt even make any sense

Because you believe the fictional tale pushed by Cullen which involves Dylan being a "depressed follower" despite wanting to murder several hundreds of people and callously executing some students on the day in a way even Eric couldn't replicate.

He murdered five people on his own. That's more than some serial killers murder in total (who suffer from psychopathy, by the way).

This isnt coming from Cullen. I question some of the stuff he says. Such as 'Eric was able to score the whole fotball- team' or that they werent bullied(honestly, this may or May not be true, because there are many multiple and conflicting sources and Ochberg denies it, yet others have stated differently).

But the idea of the psychopath and depressive came from the investigators.

It obviously wasn't well thought out because it makes little sense. If Dylan was merely a depressed individual he wouldn't have killed five people and enjoyed it as much as he did.

He showed sadistic traits plus callous disregard for human life. That cannot be ignored.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Uh.. That doesnt even make any sense

Because you believe the fictional tale pushed by Cullen which involves Dylan being a "depressed follower" despite wanting to murder several hundreds of people and callously executing some students on the day in a way even Eric couldn't replicate.

He murdered five people on his own. That's more than some serial killers murder in total (who suffer from psychopathy, by the way).

This isnt coming from Cullen. I question some of the stuff he says. Such as 'Eric was able to score the whole fotball- team' or that they werent bullied(honestly, this may or May not be true, because there are many multiple and conflicting sources and Ochberg denies it, yet others have stated differently).

But the idea of the psychopath and depressive came from the investigators.

It obviously wasn't well thought out because it makes little sense. If Dylan was merely a depressed individual he wouldn't have killed five people and enjoyed it as much as he did.

He showed sadistic traits plus callous disregard for human life. That cannot be ignored.

I still can't believe to this day people still think Dylan was just a "depressed follower"

I don't care how depressed you are. Depression does not equal to having homicidal desires, and let alone actually committing that said action. He was not just depressed. Eric was also depressed. Dylan was also a homicidal maniac with extreme mental issues that we may never know, since he's dead, and we cannot really diagnose someone who is dead

Both were probably not psychopaths. They did lack empathy and have a lot of built in anger. Both had depression which doesn’t make them homicidal, but their hatred towards humanity dis, and as time went BOTH boys became ticking time bombs of hate. Neither followed each other, Eric probably cared about Dylan more than Dylan to Eric, but that doesn’t make them followers. They both did this together, equal part in the shooting- because of their homicidal fantasies and anger. Homicidal Ideation is a mental illness itself, psychopathy doesn’t make someone kill- that’s impossible.

They both were angry and homicidal teens who should’ve gotten help and avoided each other.

lol wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Uh.. That doesnt even make any sense

Because you believe the fictional tale pushed by Cullen which involves Dylan being a "depressed follower" despite wanting to murder several hundreds of people and callously executing some students on the day in a way even Eric couldn't replicate.

He murdered five people on his own. That's more than some serial killers murder in total (who suffer from psychopathy, by the way).

This isnt coming from Cullen. I question some of the stuff he says. Such as 'Eric was able to score the whole fotball- team' or that they werent bullied(honestly, this may or May not be true, because there are many multiple and conflicting sources and Ochberg denies it, yet others have stated differently).

But the idea of the psychopath and depressive came from the investigators.

It obviously wasn't well thought out because it makes little sense. If Dylan was merely a depressed individual he wouldn't have killed five people and enjoyed it as much as he did.

He showed sadistic traits plus callous disregard for human life. That cannot be ignored.

I still can't believe to this day people still think Dylan was just a "depressed follower"

I don't care how depressed you are. Depression does not equal to having homicidal desires, and let alone actually committing that said action. He was not just depressed. Eric was also depressed. Dylan was also a homicidal maniac with extreme mental issues that we may never know, since he's dead, and we cannot really diagnose someone who is dead

Because theres more to the story. Just because you are a follower that doesnt mean you cant go through with the planning process
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

DF978 wrote:

Both were probably not psychopaths. They did lack empathy and have a lot of built in anger. Both had depression which doesn’t make them homicidal, but their hatred towards humanity dis, and as time went BOTH boys became ticking time bombs of hate. Neither followed each other, Eric probably cared about Dylan more than Dylan to Eric, but that doesn’t make them followers. They both did this together, equal part in the shooting- because of their homicidal fantasies and anger. Homicidal Ideation is a mental illness itself, psychopathy doesn’t make someone kill- that’s impossible.

They both were angry and homicidal teens who should’ve gotten help and avoided each other.

Follower doesnt mean you do not plan to carry it out. What it means is that Dylan may have played along to get along. Which doesnt make him less of a participant, but the narrative suggests that hes dependant on Eric and that Eric was kind of a ringleader. Also, does being a psychopath suggests that you cannot be depressed? Im not really sure. Peter Langmann goes into this in hes book School shooters: understanding high school, college and adult perpetrators on Page 204:

'The rate of suicide amongst psychopathic school shooters was 57 percent. In contrast, psychotic shooters had a suicide rate of 29 percent and traumatized shooters only 20 percent. This seems surprising because the psychotic and traumatized shooters generally apperared to be in far greater distress than the psychopathic shooter'.

Furter down the line

'Why would psychopathic shooters take their own lives? Though psychopaths are sometimes said to be free of psychological distress, this is not always the case. They can become discouraged, depressed and hopeless. Yochelson and Samenow discuss the zero state that psychopaths are prone to experiencing. 'He fears being reduced to a nothing more than he fears almost anything else. He is said to be in a zero state when hes self esteen is at rock bottom. Yochelson and Samenow cite one criminals state of mind as an example:' He had no faith in things, no faith in people, and no faith in the future. He seriously questioned wether he Could go through life this way- gloomy, pessimistic, with faith in nothing'..

Just to give you an example. Which kind of makes me think that this gives some level of support for the notion that psychopaths do kill themselves and are capable of being depressed.

DF978 wrote:

Both were probably not psychopaths. They did lack empathy and have a lot of built in anger. Both had depression which doesn’t make them homicidal, but their hatred towards humanity dis, and as time went BOTH boys became ticking time bombs of hate. Neither followed each other, Eric probably cared about Dylan more than Dylan to Eric, but that doesn’t make them followers. They both did this together, equal part in the shooting- because of their homicidal fantasies and anger. Homicidal Ideation is a mental illness itself, psychopathy doesn’t make someone kill- that’s impossible.

They both were angry and homicidal teens who should’ve gotten help and avoided each other.

Given their ages, I really don't think we can know what their mental health issues actually were. The brain isn't fully developed until a person is in their mid-20s and neither boy is around to discuss their issues anymore. I think they were definitely angry, full of self loathing, paranoid and had been working toward becoming emotionally removed from other people.