If Eric was a psychopath, then Dylan was a heartless prick

Sometimes I find it helpful to say to myself, "Okay, I've spent years studying the minutiae of Columbine, but what is the bottom line? If I had to explain Eric and Dylan's motives in a single paragraph, what would I say?"

I would say this:

Eric and Dylan felt that their lives were empty, boring, and meaningless. They couldn't form meaningful connections with others. They felt that nothing they could do in life would bring them any real joy or satisfaction. So they wanted to go out with a bang and make themselves immortal in the process. They wanted the world to remember them as badass muthafuckas. Ultimately, they were monstrously selfish, because they didn't care how many people they had to hurt to get what they wanted.

The psychological mumbo-jumbo (psychopath/depressive/whatever) doesn't interest me. Cullen says "Eric wanted to kill and Dylan wanted to die," but Eric wanted to die just as much as Dylan did.

If you accept Cullen's contention that Dylan wasn't all that enthused about killing, then the most charitable interpretation of Dylan's thoughts (as expressed in his journal and on the basement tapes) and his actions before and during the massacre is that he so badly wanted to die that he didn't give a shit who lived or who died. He was, at best, completely indifferent to the suffering of others. He expected many if not most of his friends to be killed when the bombs went off, and he didn't care.

How can anyone see Cullen's Dylan as a sympathetic figure?

DYLAN
Oh, I'm so depressed. I just wanna die. Why can't someone just kill me already?

ERIC
Hey, Dylan, wanna blow up the cafeteria and mow down the survivors in cold blood?

DYLAN
Yeah, whatever. I don't give a flying fuck what happens to anyone else so long as I get to die. Kill the whole fucking student body if you want. No skin off my ass.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Eric was the sole driving force behind NBK, that he was the one calling all the shots, and that Dylan really didn't want to take part in it.

The first question that pops into my mind is: "If Dylan didn't want to be part of NBK, then didn't he do something - *anything* - to stop it?" I mean, the sheer degree of premeditation evident in Dylan's actions (and inaction) in the months leading up to NBK indicates that Dylan didn't have any serious second thoughts about Eric was planning to do.

And don't tell me that Dylan didn't say anything to anyone because he was afraid of Eric. Eric wasn't following him around 24/7/365. He had plenty of opportunities to do something - *anything*.

If sad little puppy-dog emo Dylan was so terrified of swaggering pussy-pounding psycho Eric that he couldn't bring himself to tell anyone what Eric was planning, then all he had to do was to get in his BMW, drive out to some gas station 50 miles from Denver, and call the police from a pay phone. (It's doubtful that the Jeffco jokers would have done anything about it, but he could have at least made the effort.) After calling the police, he could have called the school board, and Frank DeAngelis, and Wayne Harris, and Channel 7, and told them precisely what was going on. He could have called his parents, and the Browns, and anyone else. He could have driven to the school with a megaphone and started shouting, "Eric's gonna kill you all!"

Dylan may or may not have wanted to die more than he wanted to kill, but he did not do *anything* to stop Eric from killing *anyone*. (Yes, he let John Savage go, but, then again, Eric left Brooks Brown go.)

In the end, Eric and Dylan's murderous actions proved that they didn't give a shit about anyone but themselves. That is the bottom line. And that is why I do not and cannot mourn the killers. I mourn the boys they were before they crossed the line, and I mourn the men they might have been, but I do not mourn the monsters they became in the last minutes of their lives. Those creatures - both of them - are beyond reason, beyond redemption.

Dylan shows more sociopathic tendencies than Eric - one being he's a much better liar/manipulator.

People who make Dylan out to be the good guy are always concentrating on the lovey dovey crap. The heart pages in his journals, the redacted stuff about the girl he wished he could be with in the afterlife, the who-was-the-mystery-girl thing.

Note: this kind of nullifies the "Dylan was in a girls-were-yucky junior high" state of mind that that girl says in the other thing you posted.

Good that you don't sympathize with them--some of the responses in that "what afterlife are Eric & Dylan in now?" were so embarrassing that I considered leaving this forum.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

People who make Dylan out to be the good guy are always concentrating on the lovey dovey crap.  The heart pages in his journals, the redacted stuff about the girl he wished he could be with in the afterlife, the who-was-the-mystery-girl thing.  

Note: this kind of nullifies the "Dylan was in a girls-were-yucky junior high" state of mind that that girl says in the other thing you posted.

Good that you don't sympathize with them--some of the responses in that "what afterlife are Eric & Dylan in now?" were so embarrassing that I considered leaving this forum.

They were both vile creatures. I had to actually stop reading those types of threads because they make me angry.

After hearing Dylan scream DIE MOTHERFUCKERS!!! in the 911 call I am completely on your side [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The thing is that Dylans motives aren't as clear as Erics and because of that they tend to be judged less harshly. The fact that Eric thinks he can motivate his crime logically in any way makes him an urelatable person to the general public. Dylan does not attempt to justify his crime as much, he simply does not care and people can relate to that general feeling of not giving a shit about anything.

LPorter101 wrote:

In the end, Eric and Dylan's murderous actions proved that they didn't give a shit about anyone but themselves. That is the bottom line. And that is why I do not and cannot mourn the killers. I mourn the boys they were before they crossed the line, and I mourn the men they might have been, but I do not mourn the monsters they became in the last minutes of their lives. Those creatures - both of them - are beyond reason, beyond redemption.

100% agree!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

In the end, Eric and Dylan's murderous actions proved that they didn't give a shit about anyone but themselves. That is the bottom line. And that is why I do not and cannot mourn the killers. I mourn the boys they were before they crossed the line, and I mourn the men they might have been, but I do not mourn the monsters they became in the last minutes of their lives. Those creatures - both of them - are beyond reason, beyond redemption.

100% agree!

That’s where I stand as well.

Draw_It_White wrote:

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

People who make Dylan out to be the good guy are always concentrating on the lovey dovey crap.  The heart pages in his journals, the redacted stuff about the girl he wished he could be with in the afterlife, the who-was-the-mystery-girl thing.  

Note: this kind of nullifies the "Dylan was in a girls-were-yucky junior high" state of mind that that girl says in the other thing you posted.

Good that you don't sympathize with them--some of the responses in that "what afterlife are Eric & Dylan in now?" were so embarrassing that I considered leaving this forum.

They were both vile creatures. I had to actually stop reading those types of threads because they make me angry.

Yeah, shame on people like me for having some empathy. 

I know what they did was horrible, but I forgive them for their crimes and hope that wherever they are now is better than what they what they were going through in life.

I just believe Eric sparked the entire thing. Whether you’re at school or work, you can tell almost right away the leaders and followers. Did not multiple people say Dylan was a follower in school? Who fired more shots on that day. Who kick started everything? Who wore a shirt that said Natural Selection? Who was the first one to get up and go to the gas station? Cullen is off on a few things but not on the fact both did this for two very different reasons.

Didn’t Eric say this?

"I could convince them that I'm going to climb Mount Everest, or I have a twin brother growing out of my back," says Harris. "I can make you believe anything."

Why is it a stretch he made Dylan believe it was okay to kill people before taking his own life? It’s not.

Sane One wrote:

I just believe Eric sparked the entire thing. Whether you’re at school or work, you can tell almost right away the leaders and followers. Did not multiple people say Dylan was a follower in school? Who fired more shots on that day. Who kick started everything? Who wore a shirt that said Natural Selection? Who was the first one to get up and go to the gas station? Cullen is off on a few things but not on the fact both did this for two very different reasons.

Didn’t Eric say this?

"I could convince them that I'm going to climb Mount Everest, or I have a twin brother growing out of my back," says Harris. "I can make you believe anything."

Why is it a stretch he made Dylan believe it was okay to kill people before taking his own life? It’s not.

dylan knew killing was wrong and he wanted to kill. they both came up with the idea dylan is jut that kid that does minimal effert when assigned a group project

lol classic [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I couldn't agree more

Sane One wrote:

I just believe Eric sparked the entire thing. Whether you’re at school or work, you can tell almost right away the leaders and followers. Did not multiple people say Dylan was a follower in school? Who fired more shots on that day. Who kick started everything? Who wore a shirt that said Natural Selection? Who was the first one to get up and go to the gas station? Cullen is off on a few things but not on the fact both did this for two very different reasons.

Didn’t Eric say this?

"I could convince them that I'm going to climb Mount Everest, or I have a twin brother growing out of my back," says Harris. "I can make you believe anything."

Why is it a stretch he made Dylan believe it was okay to kill people before taking his own life? It’s not.

It's interesting because I have never heard from kids at school that Eric was particularly manipulative. He pulled the wool over the eyes of adults but a lot of his peers were turned off by him.

I think Devon is the one who said Eric copied Dylan's style of dress and that Eric told Dylan he was his only friend. You have someone with such low self esteem and depression and someone like Eric who gives Dylan a safe place to express his anger, you get a volatile situation.

Sane One wrote:

Why is it a stretch he made Dylan believe it was okay to kill people before taking his own life? It’s not.

Well is it much of a stretch to assume Dylan wanted to kill people independently of Eric's thoughts on the matter?

Sane One wrote:

I just believe Eric sparked the entire thing. Whether you’re at school or work, you can tell almost right away the leaders and followers. Did not multiple people say Dylan was a follower in school? Who fired more shots on that day. Who kick started everything? Who wore a shirt that said Natural Selection? Who was the first one to get up and go to the gas station? Cullen is off on a few things but not on the fact both did this for two very different reasons.

Didn’t Eric say this?

"I could convince them that I'm going to climb Mount Everest, or I have a twin brother growing out of my back," says Harris. "I can make you believe anything."

Why is it a stretch he made Dylan believe it was okay to kill people before taking his own life? It’s not.

Eric couldn't have "sparked the whole thing". Dylan was talking about a massacre months and months before Eric.

Dylan wasn't a follower. He didn't copy anybody. He was a trend setter if anything. Eric copied Dylan's sense of style/dress code and this is evident if you read between the lines.

Dylan also wanted a "love" so he could replicate NBK. He was obsessed with Mickey as you can see from his glasses and style of dress. He probably thought he looked like him, too.

QuestionMark wrote:

Sane One wrote:

Why is it a stretch he made Dylan believe it was okay to kill people before taking his own life? It’s not.

Well is it much of a stretch to assume Dylan wanted to kill people independently of Eric's thoughts on the matter?

Not at all, evidence suggests this is plausible.

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

Sane One wrote:

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

Dylan manipulated people as much if not more than Eric did though. Eric was more vocal about it because I feel he was more naive than Dylan.

There’s never going to be a clear cut answer to anything surrounding this tragedy but I do know I’m open minded when it comes to things but not murder.

Sane One wrote:

There’s never going to be a clear cut answer to anything surrounding this tragedy but I do know I’m open minded when it comes to things but not murder.

But they were both murderers. Dylan didn't kill as many people as Eric because he had worse guns than him. They both walked the halls and peered into classrooms after the library carnage and both of them didn't attempt to kill anybody else.

I think they really were just kids that had no idea what the hell they were doing. They didn't know what blood and gore looked like. They didn't know it was nothing like the movies.

But, after Eric killed Rachel Scott it was too late. There was simply no turning back.

eldigato wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I just believe Eric sparked the entire thing. Whether you’re at school or work, you can tell almost right away the leaders and followers. Did not multiple people say Dylan was a follower in school? Who fired more shots on that day. Who kick started everything? Who wore a shirt that said Natural Selection? Who was the first one to get up and go to the gas station? Cullen is off on a few things but not on the fact both did this for two very different reasons.

Didn’t Eric say this?

"I could convince them that I'm going to climb Mount Everest, or I have a twin brother growing out of my back," says Harris. "I can make you believe anything."

Why is it a stretch he made Dylan believe it was okay to kill people before taking his own life? It’s not.

dylan knew killing was wrong and he wanted to kill. they both came up with the idea dylan is jut that kid that does minimal effert when assigned a group project

Agreed. Dylan was a well known slacker when he could get away with it.  He even tried to do it during his Diversion program.

He slacked on damn near everything. Well besides cruelty. On 4/20 Dylan had plenty of that.

Sane One wrote:

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

I for one would be more scared of someone who NO ONE ever expected was hiding a very dark side. Which was Dylan. He did have most everyone fooled. Most thought he was this sweet, soft spoken, mild mannered guy,  when underneath he was just as soul sick and mentally twisted as Eric.

Eric could barely keep his rages in check. None of his friends were all that surprised when they found out he was involved. I have ALWAYS said that Dylan was better at manipulation when compared to Eric. Dylan was the wolf in sheep's clothing.  While Eric had problems that everyone could see or sense on some level.

I would much rather deal with someone like Eric. At least you knew he had issues and wouldn't have been completely blindsided when he lost what little control he had.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

I for one would be more scared of someone who NO ONE ever expected was hiding a very dark side. Which was Dylan. He did have most everyone fooled. Most thought he was this sweet, soft spoken, mild mannered guy,  when underneath he was just as soul sick and mentally twisted as Eric.

Eric could barely keep his rages in check. None of his friends were all that surprised when they found out he was involved. I have ALWAYS said that Dylan was better at manipulation when compared to Eric. Dylan was the wolf in sheep's clothing.  While Eric had problems that everyone could see or sense on some level.

I would much rather deal with someone like Eric. At least you knew he had issues and wouldn't have been completely blindsided when he lost what little control he had.

I get the vibe that Eric fooled more of the adults in his life than his peers. Where as Dylan fooled everyone.

I think that's why he was such a good listener. If he shared too much he may slip up and not be able to hide his feelings. Better to be looked at as quiet than have people realize how fucked up he was. He even says in his journal that he was pretty screwed up and didn't know when it happened.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

I for one would be more scared of someone who NO ONE ever expected was hiding a very dark side. Which was Dylan. He did have most everyone fooled. Most thought he was this sweet, soft spoken, mild mannered guy,  when underneath he was just as soul sick and mentally twisted as Eric.

Eric could barely keep his rages in check. None of his friends were all that surprised when they found out he was involved. I have ALWAYS said that Dylan was better at manipulation when compared to Eric. Dylan was the wolf in sheep's clothing.  While Eric had problems that everyone could see or sense on some level.

I would much rather deal with someone like Eric. At least you knew he had issues and wouldn't have been completely blindsided when he lost what little control he had.

I get the vibe that Eric fooled more of the adults in his life than his peers. Where as Dylan fooled everyone.

I think that's why he was such a good listener. If he shared too much he may slip up and not be able to hide his feelings. Better to be looked at as quiet than have people realize how fucked up he was. He even says in his journal that he was pretty screwed up and didn't know when it happened.

Exactly. Yet he was very much aware of the fact he was f*cked up mentally.

Dylan was said to have worn his dark shades alot as well, even indoors. I think he likely did this to hide behind them, to hide the anger and disdain he was feeling. He may have been sad/lonely/longing for love, etc. But no one can say he wasn't filled with hate too.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

I for one would be more scared of someone who NO ONE ever expected was hiding a very dark side. Which was Dylan. He did have most everyone fooled. Most thought he was this sweet, soft spoken, mild mannered guy,  when underneath he was just as soul sick and mentally twisted as Eric.

Eric could barely keep his rages in check. None of his friends were all that surprised when they found out he was involved. I have ALWAYS said that Dylan was better at manipulation when compared to Eric. Dylan was the wolf in sheep's clothing.  While Eric had problems that everyone could see or sense on some level.

I would much rather deal with someone like Eric. At least you knew he had issues and wouldn't have been completely blindsided when he lost what little control he had.

I get the vibe that Eric fooled more of the adults in his life than his peers. Where as Dylan fooled everyone.

I think that's why he was such a good listener. If he shared too much he may slip up and not be able to hide his feelings. Better to be looked at as quiet than have people realize how fucked up he was. He even says in his journal that he was pretty screwed up and didn't know when it happened.

Exactly. Yet he was very much aware of the fact he was f*cked up mentally.

Dylan was said to have worn his dark shades alot as well, even indoors. I think he likely did this to hide behind them, to hide the anger and disdain he was feeling. He may have been sad/lonely/longing for love, etc. But no one can say he wasn't filled with hate too.

Agreed.

I still think the prom picture is painful

Though he doesn’t seem angry in the picture from his moms bday, even though I think Sue said he annoyed.

I think the only reason Eric seemed to be "leading" them on the 20th was the fact that his dad was military and he wanted it to seem somewhat like a military type raid.

People stated that Eric was shouting out orders like "cover me" or "shoot over there". And Dylan did it. I don't think Dylan did that to be a follower I just think because Eric had a more military background he deferred to him to make those kinds of decisions

And on top of that, during the planning, it seems like Eric did more because Eric DID do more. And the reason for that? Dylan was lazy. He didn't want to do more than he had to. He would rather sit and stew over his "misfortunes" than do anything about it. He didn't want to do any work. So who had to build the crickets and the bombs? Eric did.

Lizpuff wrote:

I think the only reason Eric seemed to be "leading" them on the 20th was the fact that his dad was military and he wanted it to seem somewhat like a military type raid.

People stated that Eric was shouting out orders like "cover me" or "shoot over there".  And Dylan did it.  I don't think Dylan did that to be a follower I just think because Eric had a more military background he deferred to him to make those kinds of decisions

And on top of that, during the planning, it seems like Eric did more because Eric DID do more.  And the reason for that?  Dylan was lazy.  He didn't want to do more than he had to.  He would rather sit and stew over his "misfortunes" than do anything about it.  He didn't want to do any work.  So who had to build the crickets and the bombs?  Eric did.

Agreed on all points.

Lizpuff wrote:

I think the only reason Eric seemed to be "leading" them on the 20th was the fact that his dad was military and he wanted it to seem somewhat like a military type raid.

People stated that Eric was shouting out orders like "cover me" or "shoot over there".  And Dylan did it.  I don't think Dylan did that to be a follower I just think because Eric had a more military background he deferred to him to make those kinds of decisions

And on top of that, during the planning, it seems like Eric did more because Eric DID do more.  And the reason for that?  Dylan was lazy.  He didn't want to do more than he had to.  He would rather sit and stew over his "misfortunes" than do anything about it.  He didn't want to do any work.  So who had to build the crickets and the bombs?  Eric did.

Exactly. I find their to do lists in a way telling. Dylan was more concerned with his pants and looking cool than actually doing anything.

I think pretty much everything was hidden at Eric’s. One of the guns was at Dylan’s and I think one pipe bomb (was it Vodkas vengeance? )

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I think the only reason Eric seemed to be "leading" them on the 20th was the fact that his dad was military and he wanted it to seem somewhat like a military type raid.

People stated that Eric was shouting out orders like "cover me" or "shoot over there".  And Dylan did it.  I don't think Dylan did that to be a follower I just think because Eric had a more military background he deferred to him to make those kinds of decisions

And on top of that, during the planning, it seems like Eric did more because Eric DID do more.  And the reason for that?  Dylan was lazy.  He didn't want to do more than he had to.  He would rather sit and stew over his "misfortunes" than do anything about it.  He didn't want to do any work.  So who had to build the crickets and the bombs?  Eric did.

Agreed on all points.  

Besides the obvious laziness or lack of enthusiasm on Dylan's part. Wasn't it also because Dylan was for long time under a lot of scrutiny from his parents who were looking through his room until the end of the Program he and Eric had to attend? The fact that Eric did more work might as well be caused by the fact that he had more opportunities than Dylan did in his house. Tom worked from home and Sue was in work only 4 days a week.

Klicky wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I think the only reason Eric seemed to be "leading" them on the 20th was the fact that his dad was military and he wanted it to seem somewhat like a military type raid.

People stated that Eric was shouting out orders like "cover me" or "shoot over there".  And Dylan did it.  I don't think Dylan did that to be a follower I just think because Eric had a more military background he deferred to him to make those kinds of decisions

And on top of that, during the planning, it seems like Eric did more because Eric DID do more.  And the reason for that?  Dylan was lazy.  He didn't want to do more than he had to.  He would rather sit and stew over his "misfortunes" than do anything about it.  He didn't want to do any work.  So who had to build the crickets and the bombs?  Eric did.

Agreed on all points.  

Besides the obvious laziness or lack of enthusiasm on Dylan's part. Wasn't it also because Dylan was for long time under a lot of scrutiny from his parents who were looking through his room until the end of the Program he and Eric had to attend? The fact that Eric did more work might as well be caused by the fact that he had more opportunities than Dylan did in his house. Tom worked from home and Sue was in work only 4 days a week.

I wouldn't say a lot of scrutiny. After the incident in Jan they did check his room but only a handful of times and they did not check very well. Even if that were the case Dylan had many opportunities to do things outside the home. For example, Eric needed help to get the black powder out of the fireworks because there were so many needed. Dylan didn't help. He had to find other friends to help him. I am sure Dylan didn't help purely because it was a boring act and he just didn't want to do it.

Eric had a stay at home mom as well. He did have a basement seemingly to himself but I am sure his mom was home a lot

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

I for one would be more scared of someone who NO ONE ever expected was hiding a very dark side. Which was Dylan. He did have most everyone fooled. Most thought he was this sweet, soft spoken, mild mannered guy,  when underneath he was just as soul sick and mentally twisted as Eric.

Eric could barely keep his rages in check. None of his friends were all that surprised when they found out he was involved. I have ALWAYS said that Dylan was better at manipulation when compared to Eric. Dylan was the wolf in sheep's clothing.  While Eric had problems that everyone could see or sense on some level.

I would much rather deal with someone like Eric. At least you knew he had issues and wouldn't have been completely blindsided when he lost what little control he had.

I get the vibe that Eric fooled more of the adults in his life than his peers. Where as Dylan fooled everyone.

I think that's why he was such a good listener. If he shared too much he may slip up and not be able to hide his feelings. Better to be looked at as quiet than have people realize how fucked up he was. He even says in his journal that he was pretty screwed up and didn't know when it happened.

Exactly. Yet he was very much aware of the fact he was f*cked up mentally.

Dylan was said to have worn his dark shades alot as well, even indoors. I think he likely did this to hide behind them, to hide the anger and disdain he was feeling. He may have been sad/lonely/longing for love, etc. But no one can say he wasn't filled with hate too.

In the "Eric Harris Inside Columbine" video I found that for the split second you see Dylan you can almost see the rage in his eyes. This is probably one of the rare times you see him without his sunglasses on.

It always struck me how hateful he looked for the tiny amount of time you saw him in the video. It's why I just cannot agree Dylan was a sad little follower, he was as angry as Eric and he expressed it more openly at times than he did.

Ivan wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

I for one would be more scared of someone who NO ONE ever expected was hiding a very dark side. Which was Dylan. He did have most everyone fooled. Most thought he was this sweet, soft spoken, mild mannered guy,  when underneath he was just as soul sick and mentally twisted as Eric.

Eric could barely keep his rages in check. None of his friends were all that surprised when they found out he was involved. I have ALWAYS said that Dylan was better at manipulation when compared to Eric. Dylan was the wolf in sheep's clothing.  While Eric had problems that everyone could see or sense on some level.

I would much rather deal with someone like Eric. At least you knew he had issues and wouldn't have been completely blindsided when he lost what little control he had.

I get the vibe that Eric fooled more of the adults in his life than his peers. Where as Dylan fooled everyone.

I think that's why he was such a good listener. If he shared too much he may slip up and not be able to hide his feelings. Better to be looked at as quiet than have people realize how fucked up he was. He even says in his journal that he was pretty screwed up and didn't know when it happened.

Exactly. Yet he was very much aware of the fact he was f*cked up mentally.

Dylan was said to have worn his dark shades alot as well, even indoors. I think he likely did this to hide behind them, to hide the anger and disdain he was feeling. He may have been sad/lonely/longing for love, etc. But no one can say he wasn't filled with hate too.

In the "Eric Harris Inside Columbine" video I found that for the split second you see Dylan you can almost see the rage in his eyes. This is probably one of the rare times you see him without his sunglasses on.

It always struck me how hateful he looked for the tiny amount of time you saw him in the video. It's why I just cannot agree Dylan was a sad little follower, he was as angry as Eric and he expressed it more openly at times than he did.

For me it also did a good job showing just how large he was. It is one thing to think of him being so tall and seeing him next to Eric in Hitmen for Hire, but another to see him just looming like a dark shadow over everyone in that classroom

Lizpuff wrote:

Ivan wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

I for one would be more scared of someone who NO ONE ever expected was hiding a very dark side. Which was Dylan. He did have most everyone fooled. Most thought he was this sweet, soft spoken, mild mannered guy,  when underneath he was just as soul sick and mentally twisted as Eric.

Eric could barely keep his rages in check. None of his friends were all that surprised when they found out he was involved. I have ALWAYS said that Dylan was better at manipulation when compared to Eric. Dylan was the wolf in sheep's clothing.  While Eric had problems that everyone could see or sense on some level.

I would much rather deal with someone like Eric. At least you knew he had issues and wouldn't have been completely blindsided when he lost what little control he had.

I get the vibe that Eric fooled more of the adults in his life than his peers. Where as Dylan fooled everyone.

I think that's why he was such a good listener. If he shared too much he may slip up and not be able to hide his feelings. Better to be looked at as quiet than have people realize how fucked up he was. He even says in his journal that he was pretty screwed up and didn't know when it happened.

Exactly. Yet he was very much aware of the fact he was f*cked up mentally.

Dylan was said to have worn his dark shades alot as well, even indoors. I think he likely did this to hide behind them, to hide the anger and disdain he was feeling. He may have been sad/lonely/longing for love, etc. But no one can say he wasn't filled with hate too.

In the "Eric Harris Inside Columbine" video I found that for the split second you see Dylan you can almost see the rage in his eyes. This is probably one of the rare times you see him without his sunglasses on.

It always struck me how hateful he looked for the tiny amount of time you saw him in the video. It's why I just cannot agree Dylan was a sad little follower, he was as angry as Eric and he expressed it more openly at times than he did.

For me it also did a good job showing just how large he was.  It is one thing to think of him being so tall and seeing him next to Eric in Hitmen for Hire, but another to see him just looming like a dark shadow over everyone in that classroom

He was quite tall -- but at the same time he was quite slender. Other students seem heavy next to him even though they might not necessarily be heavy at all. I think Dylan was really that thin.

Eric seemed very slender too, especially next to his friends in the video. But it wasn't quite to the same degree as Dylan.

Ivan wrote:

In the "Eric Harris Inside Columbine" video I found that for the split second you see Dylan you can almost see the rage in his eyes. This is probably one of the rare times you see him without his sunglasses on.

It always struck me how hateful he looked for the tiny amount of time you saw him in the video. It's why I just cannot agree Dylan was a sad little follower, he was as angry as Eric and he expressed it more openly at times than he did.

Agreed. The way he looked at the camera was just odd to me. In my opinion it had an eerie quality to it, a mix of melancholy and irritation.

Lizpuff wrote:

Ivan wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

I for one would be more scared of someone who NO ONE ever expected was hiding a very dark side. Which was Dylan. He did have most everyone fooled. Most thought he was this sweet, soft spoken, mild mannered guy,  when underneath he was just as soul sick and mentally twisted as Eric.

Eric could barely keep his rages in check. None of his friends were all that surprised when they found out he was involved. I have ALWAYS said that Dylan was better at manipulation when compared to Eric. Dylan was the wolf in sheep's clothing.  While Eric had problems that everyone could see or sense on some level.

I would much rather deal with someone like Eric. At least you knew he had issues and wouldn't have been completely blindsided when he lost what little control he had.

I get the vibe that Eric fooled more of the adults in his life than his peers. Where as Dylan fooled everyone.

I think that's why he was such a good listener. If he shared too much he may slip up and not be able to hide his feelings. Better to be looked at as quiet than have people realize how fucked up he was. He even says in his journal that he was pretty screwed up and didn't know when it happened.

Exactly. Yet he was very much aware of the fact he was f*cked up mentally.

Dylan was said to have worn his dark shades alot as well, even indoors. I think he likely did this to hide behind them, to hide the anger and disdain he was feeling. He may have been sad/lonely/longing for love, etc. But no one can say he wasn't filled with hate too.

In the "Eric Harris Inside Columbine" video I found that for the split second you see Dylan you can almost see the rage in his eyes. This is probably one of the rare times you see him without his sunglasses on.

It always struck me how hateful he looked for the tiny amount of time you saw him in the video. It's why I just cannot agree Dylan was a sad little follower, he was as angry as Eric and he expressed it more openly at times than he did.

For me it also did a good job showing just how large he was.  It is one thing to think of him being so tall and seeing him next to Eric in Hitmen for Hire, but another to see him just looming like a dark shadow over everyone in that classroom

If Isaiah’s height was recorded correctly he was the same height as I am. I’m roughly 102 pounds and I have a friend who has pretty much the same height and size as Dylan

It puts in perspective for me personally how terrified he must’ve been. So I can’t think about it too much . Thinking about a man pulling me from underneath the table screaming at me and then shooting me.

According to his autopsy Dylan was extremely underweight. Eric was slender but not quite so skinny. Dylan was just a walking skeleton by that point

Lizpuff wrote:

According to his autopsy Dylan was extremely underweight.  Eric was slender but not quite so skinny.  Dylan was just a walking skeleton by that point

Agree. At Dylan's height he could have carried 200/+ lbs easy and still would have been considered thin.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

According to his autopsy Dylan was extremely underweight.  Eric was slender but not quite so skinny.  Dylan was just a walking skeleton by that point

Agree. At Dylan's height he could have carried 200/+ lbs easy and still would have been considered thin.

He was about 180 and his drivers license I think. And in that picture and in his RNN interview he looks pretty bulky.

His mom said he was very strong but lacked coordination.

You probably have to have quite a bit upper body strength when you are a pitcher

But at the time of his deaths he was pretty and exceeded

Lizpuff wrote:

According to his autopsy Dylan was extremely underweight.  Eric was slender but not quite so skinny.  Dylan was just a walking skeleton by that point

Someone of Dylan's height/build should easily be 180-200 pounds. Perhaps even slightly more. Eric I feel was about right (even though he was on the smaller side) for his height.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Ivan wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I know Dylan is as guilty but somebody like Eric should scare people more. They beat to their own drum and manipulate people. Even the way he pulled one over on his therapist and took joy in fooling others leads me to believe he probably had no remorse or problem in fooling his own friends.

I for one would be more scared of someone who NO ONE ever expected was hiding a very dark side. Which was Dylan. He did have most everyone fooled. Most thought he was this sweet, soft spoken, mild mannered guy,  when underneath he was just as soul sick and mentally twisted as Eric.

Eric could barely keep his rages in check. None of his friends were all that surprised when they found out he was involved. I have ALWAYS said that Dylan was better at manipulation when compared to Eric. Dylan was the wolf in sheep's clothing.  While Eric had problems that everyone could see or sense on some level.

I would much rather deal with someone like Eric. At least you knew he had issues and wouldn't have been completely blindsided when he lost what little control he had.

I get the vibe that Eric fooled more of the adults in his life than his peers. Where as Dylan fooled everyone.

I think that's why he was such a good listener. If he shared too much he may slip up and not be able to hide his feelings. Better to be looked at as quiet than have people realize how fucked up he was. He even says in his journal that he was pretty screwed up and didn't know when it happened.

Exactly. Yet he was very much aware of the fact he was f*cked up mentally.

Dylan was said to have worn his dark shades alot as well, even indoors. I think he likely did this to hide behind them, to hide the anger and disdain he was feeling. He may have been sad/lonely/longing for love, etc. But no one can say he wasn't filled with hate too.

In the "Eric Harris Inside Columbine" video I found that for the split second you see Dylan you can almost see the rage in his eyes. This is probably one of the rare times you see him without his sunglasses on.

It always struck me how hateful he looked for the tiny amount of time you saw him in the video. It's why I just cannot agree Dylan was a sad little follower, he was as angry as Eric and he expressed it more openly at times than he did.

For me it also did a good job showing just how large he was.  It is one thing to think of him being so tall and seeing him next to Eric in Hitmen for Hire, but another to see him just looming like a dark shadow over everyone in that classroom

If Isaiah’s height was recorded correctly he was the same height as I am. I’m roughly 102 pounds and I have a friend who has pretty much the same height and size as Dylan

It puts in perspective for me personally how terrified he must’ve been. So I can’t think about it too much . Thinking about a man pulling me from underneath the table screaming at me and then shooting me.

Isiah was quite strong for his height though and had the heart of a lion. He was quite the footballer despite his height disadvantage. I don't think Isiah would have been intimidated by Dylan in the least if he didn't have a gun.

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

According to his autopsy Dylan was extremely underweight.  Eric was slender but not quite so skinny.  Dylan was just a walking skeleton by that point

Someone of Dylan's height/build should easily be 180-200 pounds. Perhaps even slightly more. Eric I feel was about right (even though he was on the smaller side) for his height.

Eric's weight relative to his height wasn't as extreme when you compare it to Dylan's. That kid was pretty much staving himself towards the end to have dropped that much.

he was 143 lbs. That is so tiny for a teen his age and height. I wonder if Sue and Tom ever saw him with his shirt off in the months leading to his death. Surely they would have seen every single bone in his body

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

According to his autopsy Dylan was extremely underweight.  Eric was slender but not quite so skinny.  Dylan was just a walking skeleton by that point

Someone of Dylan's height/build should easily be 180-200 pounds. Perhaps even slightly more. Eric I feel was about right (even though he was on the smaller side) for his height.

Eric's weight relative to his height wasn't as extreme when you compare it to Dylan's. That kid was pretty much staving himself towards the end to have dropped that much.

You can work out where they stand with a BMI calculator. Eric comes up at a 20.8 which is skinny, but a healthy reading. Dylan is at 17.5 which is officially and technically "underweight" by health standards.

Lizpuff wrote:

he was 143 lbs.  That is so tiny for a teen his age and height.  I wonder if Sue and Tom ever saw him with his shirt off in the months leading to his death.  Surely they would have seen every single bone in his body

I don't think Dylan seemed like the type to have his shirt off... ever.

One thing that isn't talked about is Dylan may have actually had anorexia. He complained of being "fat" in the Basement Tapes when he was very gaunt and thin looking.

This may stem from bullying he received when he was younger. He was a little chubby when he was in 7th and 8th grade (as are some kids that age) but by 9th/10th grade he was fairly thin.

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

he was 143 lbs.  That is so tiny for a teen his age and height.  I wonder if Sue and Tom ever saw him with his shirt off in the months leading to his death.  Surely they would have seen every single bone in his body

I don't think Dylan seemed like the type to have his shirt off... ever.

One thing that isn't talked about is Dylan may have actually had anorexia. He complained of being "fat" in the Basement Tapes when he was very gaunt and thin looking.

This may stem from bullying he received when he was younger. He was a little chubby when he was in 7th and 8th grade (as are some kids that age) but by 9th/10th grade he was fairly thin.

That is an interesting thought. I always attributed his weight loss to generally puberty at first, then stress and eating poorly near the end. Anorexia never hit my mind!

Lizpuff wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

he was 143 lbs.  That is so tiny for a teen his age and height.  I wonder if Sue and Tom ever saw him with his shirt off in the months leading to his death.  Surely they would have seen every single bone in his body

I don't think Dylan seemed like the type to have his shirt off... ever.

One thing that isn't talked about is Dylan may have actually had anorexia. He complained of being "fat" in the Basement Tapes when he was very gaunt and thin looking.

This may stem from bullying he received when he was younger. He was a little chubby when he was in 7th and 8th grade (as are some kids that age) but by 9th/10th grade he was fairly thin.

That is an interesting thought.  I always attributed his weight loss to generally puberty at first, then stress and eating poorly near the end.  Anorexia never hit my mind!

Didn’t Sue said he ate at home? However if it was anorexia there are ways to cover up under eating etc.

You’d think on prom day they would’ve noticed when he was in his boxers and T-shirt how skinny he was though.



Where did you guys hear that he was bullied for his weight and was overweight in middle school? Was it from No Easy Answers?

Except if he went swimming no one probably saw Dylan shirtless. Plus his bulky trench coat probably added some heft to him.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

he was 143 lbs.  That is so tiny for a teen his age and height.  I wonder if Sue and Tom ever saw him with his shirt off in the months leading to his death.  Surely they would have seen every single bone in his body

I don't think Dylan seemed like the type to have his shirt off... ever.

One thing that isn't talked about is Dylan may have actually had anorexia. He complained of being "fat" in the Basement Tapes when he was very gaunt and thin looking.

This may stem from bullying he received when he was younger. He was a little chubby when he was in 7th and 8th grade (as are some kids that age) but by 9th/10th grade he was fairly thin.

That is an interesting thought.  I always attributed his weight loss to generally puberty at first, then stress and eating poorly near the end.  Anorexia never hit my mind!

Didn’t Sue said he ate at home? However if it was anorexia there are ways to cover up under eating etc.

You’d think on  prom day they would’ve noticed when he was in his boxers and T-shirt how skinny he was though.



Where did you guys hear that he was bullied for his weight and was overweight in middle school? Was it from No Easy Answers?

Except if he went swimming no one probably saw Dylan shirtless. Plus his bulky trench coat probably added some heft to him.  

This is the first I am hearing of Dylan being bullied for weight when he was younger.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

he was 143 lbs.  That is so tiny for a teen his age and height.  I wonder if Sue and Tom ever saw him with his shirt off in the months leading to his death.  Surely they would have seen every single bone in his body

I don't think Dylan seemed like the type to have his shirt off... ever.

One thing that isn't talked about is Dylan may have actually had anorexia. He complained of being "fat" in the Basement Tapes when he was very gaunt and thin looking.

This may stem from bullying he received when he was younger. He was a little chubby when he was in 7th and 8th grade (as are some kids that age) but by 9th/10th grade he was fairly thin.

That is an interesting thought.  I always attributed his weight loss to generally puberty at first, then stress and eating poorly near the end.  Anorexia never hit my mind!

Didn’t Sue said he ate at home? However if it was anorexia there are ways to cover up under eating etc.

You’d think on prom day they would’ve noticed when he was in his boxers and T-shirt how skinny he was though.



Where did you guys hear that he was bullied for his weight and was overweight in middle school? Was it from No Easy Answers?

Except if he went swimming no one probably saw Dylan shirtless. Plus his bulky trench coat probably added some heft to him.

I haven't read any Columbine related book. I gathered this from his behavior and how he acted. It also reminds me of myself at that same age and I had scars from trauma like that.

Sue said he cried himself to sleep because kids were mean to him. I can't think of any other reason as to why - Dylan was spoiled and he seemed quite lazy. Plus in his school photos around that time he had a chubbier face.

I think it led him down the road of eating disorders. Dylan was a real screwed up kid.

Screamingophelia wrote:

He even says in his journal that he was pretty screwed up and didn't know when it happened.

I find that rather sad. Imagine knowing how screwed up your mental state is getting and don't know how to fix it or why it's happening.

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

He even says in his journal that he was pretty screwed up and didn't know when it happened.

I find that rather sad. Imagine knowing how screwed up your mental state is getting and don't know how to fix it or why it's happening.

I have to admit my heart does break for him when he says "I don't know when the entity took over Dylan Klebold and I became fucked up" I think through his depression came his anger because he didn't completely understand what was going on, he was self reliant so he couldn't ask for help, he became violent with his thoughts but couldn't express it, at some point he and Eric shared these feelings (to be a fly on the wall of that conversation.....) and the rest is history.

LPorter101, good to see ya on here!